Can 7.0 focus on a storyline without the philosophizing

We really don't need another lecture on the meaning of life or existentialism. We don't need to watch yet another monologue on how life is worth living and we can still have purpose even if we fail and suffer, or how humans have free will and we need to fight for our purpose and choose our purpose even if we might fail, defying our fate and the purpose others impose on us (basically existentialism).

It's quite enough, CBU3. Please find some new material. Please write a story with nuanced and interesting character development perhaps, that isn't just traveling with 7 people who just alternate between "you are my friend and I appreciate you" or "don't die on me".

EW had barely any character development, and now FF16 doesn't have it either (other than maybe Joshua). It's like character arcs no longer exist in CBU3 games, giving way to the philosophy and life lessons that CBU3 wants you to remember. Which is fine once or twice but it is seriously getting tiring and tedious when it's the twentieth time the same moral of the story gets repeated again and again.

Is this ragebait? LOL
That's not a valid feedback. You can't just demand a game developer what they should and should not go creative-wise. It's their story to tell.

That kind of storytelling you are describing has always been a signature of the Final Fantasy main titles. Character development doesn't always have to be drastic to be interesting or nuanced. But yea, you are entitled to your wrong opinion.

If you want other styles or stories, there are plenty of other options outside of XIV.

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Originally Posted by tsuchii

That's not a valid feedback.

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Thanks for being frank about your bad-faith attacks being bad-faith so I can skip reading the rest of your post.

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

Thanks for being frank about your bad-faith attacks being bad-faith so I can skip reading the rest of your post.

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The only thing bad faith around here is your passive aggressive hated for CBU3.

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

We really don't need another lecture on the meaning of life or existentialism. We don't need to watch yet another monologue on how life is worth living and we can still have purpose even if we fail and suffer, or how humans have free will and we need to fight for our purpose and choose our purpose even if we might fail, defying our fate and the purpose others impose on us (basically existentialism).

It's quite enough, CBU3. Please find some new material. Please write a story with nuanced and interesting character development perhaps, that isn't just traveling with 7 people who just alternate between "you are my friend and I appreciate you" or "don't die on me".

EW had barely any character development, and now FF16 doesn't have it either (other than maybe Joshua). It's like character arcs no longer exist in CBU3 games, giving way to the philosophy and life lessons that CBU3 wants you to remember. Which is fine once or twice but it is seriously getting tiring and tedious when it's the twentieth time the same moral of the story gets repeated again and again.

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I wholeheartedly agree with you. The entire 6.0 EW MSQ and the whole concepts of Dynamis and "The universe and its world have fallen into depression and that's why they're all dead" is quite boring to me. Perhaps one of the most boring cosmic-themed concepts I have seen so far in the history of gaming. Do you really want to convince me that the vast expanse of the universe, with hundreds, thousands, or even millions of civilizations got wiped out because of depression and despair? That they share the same understanding of emotions as the rest? That no one managed to stand against it other than a group of 16-30 years old scholars who took it down via the power of friendship? I'm not trying to shame people who like this sort of philosophy, but I'd prefer actions, actual mysteries, plot twists, and grey morality where neither side's actions are justified just like ARR/HW story writing over emotions and friendship.

All the things OP dislikes are exactly the story beats that I love about XIV. When Endwalker came out, 3 people close to me all passed away young. It was a hard time in my life and the messaging about life and value resonated with me.

I also see character growth for Clive in 16. I'm only halfway through but he's already been through a tale of self-loathing and forgiveness.

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Originally Posted by Kranel_San

I wholeheartedly agree with you. The entire 6.0 EW MSQ and the whole concepts of Dynamis and "The universe and its world have fallen to depression and that's why they're all dead" is quite boring to me. Perhaps one of the most boring universe-themed concepts I have seen so far. I'd really enjoy a return to the ARR/HW style of story-writing with its grey morality.

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Exactly. Once or twice is fine but they've been doing this for six years now and it's really getting stale. There's really only so many times they can use the existentialist/defying fate trope before it completely loses its power.

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Originally Posted by Kranel_San

I wholeheartedly agree with you. The entire 6.0 EW MSQ and the whole concepts of Dynamis and "The universe and its world have fallen to depression and that's why they're all dead" is quite boring to me. Perhaps one of the most boring universe-themed concepts I have seen so far. I'd really enjoy a return to the ARR/HW style of story-writing with its grey morality.

Do you want to convince me that hundreds of civilizations got wiped out because of depression and despair, with no one able to stand against it, and then a group of 16-30 years old scholars manage to beat it with their emotions??

Not to shame people who like philosophy, but I much prefer actions and actual mysteries and plot twists over emotions and philosophy.

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I personally thought the story was incredible. I had a lot of fun on patch day and felt on the edge of my seat constantly. It's 6.1 and beyond where I feel disappointed. The lack of longevity with content and a story not remotely as engaging. The fake disbands of the scions that never should have happened.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

All the things OP dislikes are exactly the story beats that I love about XIV. When Endwalker came out, 3 people close to me all passed away young. It was a hard time in my life and the messaging about life and value resonated with me.

I also see character growth for Clive in 16. I'm only halfway through but he's already been through a tale of self-loathing and forgiveness.

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Sorry but maybe you should finish the game because character growth pretty much ends for everyone (maybe other than Joshua and Dion) halfway through the game. Jill, for example, pretty much gets no development after Drake's Breath.

Also, there is no issue with philosophical themes, but the protagonists really do not need to bluntly espouse their philosophy every other cutscene. Show, not tell.

I don't think it's far fetched for them to shift story from some philosophical stuff, to some more direct story with hopefully more focus on characters. Other parts of the game shifted drastically from original game anyways, I don't see why story should be exception. The philosophy they tried to portray in 6.0 EW, for me personally, fell really flat. Especially since we saved universe without any sacrifice, and without any real stakes. It all felt staged, only philosophical thought I got from this is that as long as you're one of the main characters, you're untouchable. As for 6.1, that garbage isn't neither philosophical, or good in any way, even characters are recycled from some 20+ years old game.

There are more philosophical and existential thoughts in this thread alone than in 6.0. For example, the idea of living rent-free in someone's head. How much they must hate you, just so they completely disregard any of your opinions, even if they're valid and constructed in polite way? How hypocritical can you be, when you call someone practicing bad faith, while you're practicing it yourself? If you're trying to discuss something and call someone's opinion straight out wrong, then list cheap argument and give author no chance to counter argue your point, then that is dead giveaway that you're not opposing the idea, but you're childishly opposing the author. You know, if you don't like someone, you can just block them and don't engage with them, it's that simple.

While we're at it, we're a touch hyper-intelligent wizard heavy. I love me a good wizard paired with some theorizing, but the main cast of characters are all Sharlayan PhDs hosting grad student exposition dumps every other quest and I'm kiiiiinda sick of it.

More to the topic, I don't mind philosophy so long as it's grounded and has stakes. I didn't dislike Endwalker's story like several people in General do, but the flattest parts for me were where it showed off its lack of stakes. Y'shtola is nearly becoming genre savvy self-aware of her invincibility and is using it to her advantage. For all of the talk about death and sacrifice, we've had to give nothing up for a really long time.

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

Exactly. Once or twice is fine but they've been doing this for six years now and it's really getting stale. There's really only so many times they can use the existentialist/defying fate trope before it completely loses its power.

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Exactly. It's in fact kind of refreshing to attempt changing the theme of story-telling in order to appeal to more players and reflect that reality composes of more than one aspect, giving life to both the characters and the world itself. However, the way CBU3 has done it so far is too much, and I'd really appreciate a new change of story-telling themes.

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Originally Posted by Remish

I personally thought the story was incredible. I had a lot of fun on patch day and felt on the edge of my seat constantly. It's 6.1 and beyond where I feel disappointed. The lack of longevity with content and a story not remotely as engaging. The fake disbands of the scions that never should have happened.

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The first part of EW (Up until the defeat of Zodiark) was enjoyable to me, but everything that happened afterward? Not really.

6.1 and its grounded adventure into the Alzadaal's legacy was also quite enjoyable and refreshing, although the void storyline has been dragged into philosophy again with the meaning of "Friendship & Trust" being the main theme of it, in addition to the unnecessary prolonging of it. It could have ended in 6.4 or even in 6.3 but it seems we're going to have another round in 6.5

Unless 7.0 is a fully grounded adventure, I'm not looking forward to it, and my expectations are even lower knowing Zero is included in it, as she's the current mean through which CBU3 is injecting philosophy into the story.

I think the reason for it is because this is what Final Fantasy games often try to do. Through their adventure they enter doubts and depressions and question the meaning of life and what they are fighting for, and Yoshi-P wanted to take that from the Final Fantasy games and do it in all this game's expansions as well.

Apparently EW resonated a lot with people suffering from depression who had not benefitted from any other sort of therapies, so it was a good thing for that reason alone.

The expansions can do this sort of thing whilst still having proper character development because it happened in some of the old final fantasy games. If they tackle depression, they can just do it in a way where the depression affects a particular character such as Thancred and watching him go through this whole period of depression and then come out of it and overcome the last boss with you.

Hm. I'm having a weird thought here, and I'm not sure if it's a synaptic misfire or something worth writing down. I think one of the things that's been nagging at me about the story lately is the weird mix of philosophies they're doing. What I mean by that is, they're talking a big game about meaning, despair, struggling forward despite it all, etc etc. And then they're pairing it with this weird mushy "everyone's just trying their best and everyone's a good person deep down and there are no real villains only people we haven't spent enough time yapping philosophy at" vague-occasionally-venturing-into-cutesy kumbaya vibe that's just....nooooot landing with me, especially in the EW patch content. I've encountered some meaty, juicy stories that mix existential angst with humor, but something about this isn't doing it for me.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

All the things OP dislikes are exactly the story beats that I love about XIV. When Endwalker came out, 3 people close to me all passed away young. It was a hard time in my life and the messaging about life and value resonated with me.

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Are you me? Lol jk but seriously I was thinking the same thing when I read the op, and wasn't going to comment but you obviously also get it. This game and its stories of forgiveness, compassion, they all struck me at my core at a time when I really needed them.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

Are you me? Lol jk but seriously I was thinking the same thing when I read the op, and wasn't going to comment but you obviously also get it. This game and its stories of forgiveness, compassion, they all struck me at my core at a time when I really needed them.

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There really is some beautiful messaging about life in these stories. Obviously not all have to really enjoy this type of story, but these little reminders can really hit home for others like us.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Hm. I'm having a weird thought here, and I'm not sure if it's a synaptic misfire or something worth writing down. I think one of the things that's been nagging at me about the story lately is the weird mix of philosophies they're doing. What I mean by that is, they're talking a big game about meaning, despair, struggling forward despite it all, etc etc. And then they're pairing it with this weird mushy "everyone's just trying their best and everyone's a good person deep down and there are no real villains only people we haven't spent enough time yapping philosophy at" vague-occasionally-venturing-into-cutesy kumbaya vibe that's just....nooooot landing with me, especially in the EW patch content. I've encountered some meaty, juicy stories that mix existential angst with humor, but something about this isn't doing it for me.

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It's because existentialism is a philosophy that is against essentializing yourself or others. It's about living authentically.

However, some of the main characters in FF14 are very much not living authentically, at least to normal humans like us. They are caricatures, tropes, essences. For a game that has frequently espoused the virtue of celebrating humanity, the human experience, and free will, even if it means making mistakes and being flawed, most of the main Scions do not seem to actually do so since HW. Long gone are the days of Alphinaud actually suffering any consequence from his mistakes. Failing again and again and yet persisting, like Camus' Sisphyus, even if it were futile, can be a potent symbol. Some of the Scions reference this idea at times, saying that they will fight even if the odds are insurmountable. But in the story they are as surmountable as a gentle, carpeted straight road.

Living authentically is not easy. Living authentically is scary because failure no longer has an external excuse - failures belong to you. That kind of is the point of existentialism. If there are no stakes, the philosophy rings hollow, because anyone can do it. Anyone can defy fate if they know they're not going to actually die. Anyone can say that they embrace humanity's flaws and failures if people always get inspired by them and are nice to them - and if they do not, they almost always will after two quests of convincing with good deeds. Anyone can want to fight on if they never failed.

The philosophy the Scions espouse only has merit if we start seeing them actually display human flaws and fail more often.

Sounds more like you are just salty for some reason more then they stories are bad

Hmm... na, I am OK with philosophising and exploring interesting themes. Does the game always get it right? No, it does not always hit the mark (And please can we not have any more fake-out deaths? I do not want anyone to die, but that just silly haha) but name any piece of storytelling that is perfect. I for one really enjoyed Endwalker and what it explored, plus I would rather that they try to do something and fail, rather then just force itself to be a soulless adventure. Final Fantasy, heck fantasy fiction in general, has always been good at doing this. Exploring themes in ways that can only be done in these types of settings and worlds. I think its a shame how people almost think such stories are ‘childish’ nowadays. Honestly, in this crap sack of a Capitalist hate-filled world, we need all the messages of hope that we can get!

If people feel different then fair enough, and I hope they enjoy future content more. To me, one of the beautiful things about fiction is just how subjective it is. I for one am just over half way through FFXVI but am really enjoy the story. The writing of certain characters could be better, but overall I am very happy, especially with character likes Clive and Cid.

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

It's because existentialism is a philosophy that is against essentializing yourself or others. It's about living authentically.

However, some of the main characters in FF14 are very much not living authentically, at least to normal humans like us. They are caricatures, tropes, essences. For a game that has frequently espoused the virtue of celebrating humanity, the human experience, and free will, even if it means making mistakes and being flawed, most of the main Scions do not seem to actually do so since HW. Long gone are the days of Alphinaud actually suffering any consequence from his mistakes. Failing again and again and yet persisting, like Camus' Sisphyus, even if it were futile, can be a potent symbol. Some of the Scions reference this idea at times, saying that they will fight even if the odds are insurmountable. But in the story they are as surmountable as a gentle, carpeted straight road.

Living authentically is not easy. Living authentically is scary because failure no longer has an external excuse - failures belong to you. That kind of is the point of existentialism. If there are no stakes, the philosophy rings hollow, because anyone can do it. Anyone can defy fate if they know they're not going to actually die. Anyone can say that they embrace humanity's flaws and failures if people always get inspired by them and are nice to them - and if they do not, they almost always will after two quests of convincing with good deeds. Anyone can want to fight on if they never failed.

The philosophy the Scions espouse only has merit if we start seeing them actually display human flaws and fail more often.

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Yeah, I think the clash is extra dissonant because I've seen it done well, especially outside FFXIV. Shadowbringers? Great. Mwah. A fantastical character we see making a evil choices for a recognizably human reason? Alphinaud telling him "it makes no difference" was excellent. Confronting someone who claims they have no choice and reminding them that everything comes down to choices is one of the places an existentialist story truly shines.

Endwalker's been riding too long on "oh, this group of people despises me, stands between me and my goal? I wonder what the right choice could b...PFFFFFF nevermind I'll just bake them an effing pie or something and they'll let me pass because now they see I'm a hero".

Those aren't choices. Nobody behaves like that. It's taking any avenue toward believable writing and mulching it under the Power of Love and Friendship.

I think the game would have been better served by consistency. For years it was extremely and obsessively preachy when it came to matters such as genocide, insisting that it was a line in the sand that could never be crossed even if the reasons for indulging such an act happened to be seen as an 'impossible choice' or 'deeply sympathetic'. Endwalker swings around and suddenly when the pretty mother goddess reveals that she deliberately inflicted genocide upon her own people for a situation she, herself, helped escalate through inaction and treachery and suddenly it's 'regrettable, but necessary'.

Endwalker also launched during a time of great global strife and had the arrogant cast walk away bragging about not even earning a single scar. As well as having all the money they could ever want thrown their way. At a time when in the real world people were losing their life savings, loved ones and closing down businesses that they'd put their hearts and souls into. It's exceedingly tone deaf and the writers are clearly playing favourites and cladding certain characters in ridiculous amounts of plot armour.

Perhaps they should stick to smaller scale stories instead of trying to force some very strange and hypocritical 'morals' onto a player-base that consists of players from many different backgrounds, cultures and belief systems.

I've never been particularly interested in the sturm und drang around the "ancient genocide". It happened. It was a choice Venat made. Is it muddying Paradise Lost/Utopian poetic imagery with time travel and flesh-and-blood people? Certainly. Those narratives hit differently when they describe things that happened lost to the mists of time. Utopias are unsustainable, and always collapse. That's a trope as old as time. Making a person consciously choose to end it, combining the role of a deity and a human makes it ugly for sure.

I just don't see it that way. I see a utopia in a story, I know it's going to die. That's how it works. Did millions of people die in wars thousands of years ago? Yep. Were many of those wars waged over selfish, petty reasons? Yep. Am I going to froth and rage that we don't spend enough time decrying the eeeeeevil evil evils of the eeeeeeevil people behind those wars? Why should I? It happened. The only interesting thing about them is how people respond to them today. They're so far removed from modernity that having a personal emotional connection to them is silly.

I don't see Venat as a person. The ancients aren't people. They were firmly categorized for me as plot devices the moment I smelled a utopia narrative. All of the bellyaching about Venat is just pointless. Get over it. She murdered millions of people and felt kinda bad about it, and now she's dead. Do we need a four patch cycle where every NPC has personally-crafted dialogue where they rant about what a horrible evil wicked witch Venat was to "salvage" the story?

Nah, the game adamantly presents them as a people, and has you even interacting with them on those terms both in Elpis and in Pandaemonium, and also through Emet-Selch's retelling of what was lost through her act of mass murder/genocide. If you don't see it as such? That's your prerogative, but they're no less presented as a people as any other group in the game. Seems like the real problem is Venat is your "off boundaries for criticism" zone. But I'm afraid that's your issue, not ours.

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Utopias are unsustainable, and always collapse.

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Weird how the game presents it such that there was even hope for the Nibirun, in that case. But here it isn't even a case of utopia collapsing, it's some nutcase throwing a cosmic scale temper tantrum and some other nutcase thinking this is a good 'test' for mankind.

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Do we need a four patch cycle where every NPC has personally-crafted dialogue where they rant about what a horrible evil wicked witch Venat was to "salvage" the story?

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I'm sure you can do better than some poorly constructed strawman like this. All he is doing is mentioning how it makes all the preaching in the game come across as supremely conceited and hypocritical. That's it. It's not addressed in the base MSQ and the crew is exactly the type that would normally hold any other character to a screeching session if they did even a tenth of what she did.

I'm really glad I'm far enough in XVI to not be spoiled by things in this thread. Stop posting spoilers for XVI on a forum that isn't even related to the game in threads that don't even mention that game. Take your CBU3 hate to the XVI forums with that.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I think the game would have been better served by consistency. For years it was extremely and obsessively preachy when it came to matters such as genocide, insisting that it was a line in the sand that could never be crossed even if the reasons for indulging such an act happened to be seen as an 'impossible choice' or 'deeply sympathetic'. Endwalker swings around and suddenly when the pretty mother goddess reveals that she deliberately inflicted genocide upon her own people for a situation she, herself, helped escalate through inaction and treachery and suddenly it's 'regrettable, but necessary'.

Endwalker also launched during a time of great global strife and had the arrogant cast walk away bragging about not even earning a single scar. As well as having all the money they could ever want thrown their way. At a time when in the real world people were losing their life savings, loved ones and closing down businesses that they'd put their hearts and souls into. It's exceedingly tone deaf and the writers are clearly playing favourites and cladding certain characters in ridiculous amounts of plot armour.

Perhaps they should stick to smaller scale stories instead of trying to force some very strange and hypocritical 'morals' onto a player-base that consists of players from many different backgrounds, cultures and belief systems.

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I would agree with this even ignoring Venat(although I personally agree with you on that one), they did try to paint Fandaniel/Hermes as a forgivable mess in the 6.1 Omega quest as well. Hermes was someone who thought he was alone in a sea of people who actually did think like he did. Seriously go do some sidequests in Elpis and see how others care about their creations. He just failed to see those around him like himself which really doesn't help his narrative to me.

I personally would say while Endwalker didn't resonate with me I do get why it did resonate so hard with others but I would also like to see a story that kept everyone happy such as Heavensward. Also the patch content even from my friends who liked Endwalker would admit to it is boring and "filler".

OP is a known Negative Nancy. Unless you hate the game like they do...don't expect a meaningful discussion. They want an echo chamber and that is all.

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

EW had barely any character development.

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Well Duh, all of the Development happened several Chapters / Expansions ago.
This is about the end of the World and overcoming it through the Power of Friendship and blahblahblah. Thats why there was all of those "Lectures" about the the meaning of life and existentialism. That was the ""Theme""
Feel free to say you dont like how it was handled, MANY people will agree with you on that, but hey, its the story they wanted to tell, and its how they chose to tell it.
Its done, it already happened.

Now for the Next story, Cant say what its about yet. Why haven't fully concluded and Branched into the Road to 7.0 yet.
Some Big Event is apparently gonna happen. We have to wait and see.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Well Duh, all of the Development happened several Chapters / Expansions ago.
This is about the end of the World and overcoming it through the Power of Friendship and blahblahblah. Thats why there was all of those "Lectures" about the the meaning of life and existentialism. That was the ""Theme""
Feel free to say you dont like how it was handled, MANY people will agree with you on that, but hey, its the story they wanted to tell, and its how they chose to tell it.
Its done, it already happened.

Now for the Next story, Cant say what its about yet. Why haven't fully concluded and Branched into the Road to 7.0 yet.
Some Big Event is apparently gonna happen. We have to wait and see.

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I swear, a ton of you people sound like you did not even pay attention to the EW story lol, these forums never disappoint with the hot takes.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I'm really glad I'm far enough in XVI to not be spoiled by things in this thread. Stop posting spoilers for XVI on a forum that isn't even related to the game in threads that don't even mention that game. Take your CBU3 hate to the XVI forums with that.

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I have been wanting to bring this up too. There are a LOT of FF16 spoilers on this forum and none of them are marked as such. This is the FFXIV forums, not the FF16 forums.

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Originally Posted by Remish

I have been wanting to bring this up too. There are a LOT of FF16 spoilers on this forum and none of them are marked as such. This is the FFXIV forums, not the FF16 forums.

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Avoid any of OP's threads and you'll avoid most of it. He spends almost as much time complaining about 16 as he does complaining about 14.

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Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

I swear, a ton of you people sound like you did not even pay attention to the EW story lol, these forums never disappoint with the hot takes.

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I made a Hot Take?
Im confused lol

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Originally Posted by Deo14

The philosophy they tried to portray in 6.0 EW, for me personally, fell really flat. Especially since we saved universe without any sacrifice, and without any real stakes. It all felt staged

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Oh yeah, all those fake death scenes on UT. What inspirational cutscenes I guess, lol.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I think the game would have been better served by consistency. For years it was extremely and obsessively preachy when it came to matters such as genocide, insisting that it was a line in the sand that could never be crossed even if the reasons for indulging such an act happened to be seen as an 'impossible choice' or 'deeply sympathetic'. Endwalker swings around and suddenly when the pretty mother goddess reveals that she deliberately inflicted genocide upon her own people for a situation she, herself, helped escalate through inaction and treachery and suddenly it's 'regrettable, but necessary'.

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The consistency bit is what confused me the most. The story as a whole I would've found much better if they ditched Venat's philosophical reasons for sundering the ancients and just stuck with the original reason from ShB where a colossal battle between Zodiark and Hydaelyn sundered everyone.

To make that change so suddenly kind of threw me off. It's like the writer, instead of opting to write a story that was more consistent with the plot from ShB, decided they wanted to try to impress the audience by inserting some other preachy and sanctimonious philosophical reason into it (“No more shall man have wings to bear him to paradise,") but it just came off as ludicrous and unnecessary. It reminded me of this pseudo-intellectual kid at high school/college who would always try to impress people and appear sophisticated by sharing their philosophical takes and outlooks on life, but in reality they barely had a surface-level knowledge of the topics they tried to lecture people about. That's what EW MSQ's writing reminded me of.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

You know, if you don't like someone, you can just block them and don't engage with them, it's that simple.

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They'll never block Gaius. They need to leave him unblocked to either A: argue with him, or B: report his posts to the mods, and they can't do either of those without being able to read his posts.

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

Anyone can say that they embrace humanity's flaws and failures if people always get inspired by them and are nice to them - and if they do not, they almost always will after two quests of convincing with good deeds. Anyone can want to fight on if they never failed.

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I was convinced that when the "grumpy Garlean" in 6.40 MSQ wandered off into the city, it was going to be some fake-out heroic moment, and we'd find him dead or something, and have to confront the consequences of infighting, etc. Because it couldn't possibly be going down as obvious and banal a path as it seemed, right?

Nope.

It really was just, "Oh I bumped into a robot, but you killed the robot, I'm sorry I was mean to you, I've changed my political views completely, let's stop obstructing your plot device".

Why did it even need to happen?

Why am I even here, at this point?

You could just summarise this in a pop-up text and I would feel like my time was better spent.

From all your posts, it's becoming clear to me that you really haven't played much Final Fantasy at all.

From your strange fixation on a non existent rule of having every primal ever in every game, to you seemingly being surprised at the themes that actually have been in most FF games, I don't think you really know what you're talking about.

From the grim story the characters face in II and Cecil's conflicts in IV, to the bounce back from VI's heroes and the fact that VII was made as a way to deal with death and loss, and from X's quest leading to death and XIII's characters dealing with the concept of their mortality through a forced focus, and basically every other plot in the series I didn't just paraphrased, Final Fantasy has always been about comradery, overcoming impossible odds through it, the meaning of living and the conflicts that come with it.

These themes were just picked up by CBUIII, and regardless of how well they've been executed each time, they've been at the core of Final Fantasy story telling for over 35 years.
Ishikawa wrote Shadowbringers and Endwalker. FFXVI was written by Kazutoyo Maehiro. XIV was directed by Yoshida, but XVI was directed by Hiroshi Takai abd Maehiro himself. The creative heads are different for each game. The themes remain as they did in the times of Hironobu Sakaguchi, Yoshinori Kitase, Kazushige Nojima and Testsuya Nomura, just to name a few.

This means that only one of the following three options justifies this kind of a post:
1.- You haven't ever really played this series at all and are just realizing these are common themes in it.
2.- You did play a few games, but the core themes just flew over your head because of lack of attention or capacity to understand them.
3.- You have played FF and know these themes are in the series, and thus you're making this post conciously in bad faith to pick a bone with CBUIII for some reason.

I don't know which one of the three is worse, but none of the posts you've ever made has made much sense.

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

I was convinced that when the "grumpy Garlean" in 6.40 MSQ wandered off into the city, it was going to be some fake-out heroic moment, and we'd find him dead or something, and have to confront the consequences of infighting, etc. Because it couldn't possibly be going down as obvious and banal a path as it seemed, right?

Nope.

It really was just, "Oh I bumped into a robot, but you killed the robot, I'm sorry I was mean to you, I've changed my political views completely, let's stop obstructing your plot device".

Why did it even need to happen?

Why am I even here, at this point?

You could just summarise this in a pop-up text and I would feel like my time was better spent.

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Exactly. This is another big issue. People just don't behave like that realistically. People are stubborn and it can take a long time to convince them of something. Sometimes, in trying to convince them of something they might even retaliate.

But this game almost never shows that these days. The dev team has shown flawed characters (Alphinaud) and what that flaw wrought (2.55), but I wonder why we never see it anymore.

Pray return to world of warcraft. No lectures here just dwagons and titans.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

From all your posts, it's becoming clear to me that you really haven't played much Final Fantasy at all.

From your strange fixation on a non existent rule of having every primal ever in every game, to you seemingly being surprised at the themes that actually have been in most FF games, I don't think you really know what you're talking about.

From the grim story the characters face in II and Cecil's conflicts in IV, to the bounce back from VI's heroes and the fact that VII was made as a way to deal with death and loss, and from X's quest leading to death and XIII's characters dealing with the concept of their mortality through a forced focus, and basically every other plot in the series I didn't just paraphrased, Final Fantasy has always been about comradery, overcoming impossible odds through it, the meaning of living and the conflicts that come with it.

These themes were just picked up by CBUIII, and regardless of how well they've been executed each time, they've been at the core of Final Fantasy story telling for over 35 years.
Ishikawa wrote Shadowbringers and Endwalker. FFXVI was written by Kazutoyo Maehiro. XIV was directed by Yoshida, but XVI was directed by Hiroshi Takai abd Maehiro himself. The creative heads are different for each game. The themes remain as they did in the times of Hironobu Sakaguchi, Yoshinori Kitase, Kazushige Nojima and Testsuya Nomura, just to name a few.

This means that only one of the following three options justifies this kind of a post:
1.- You haven't ever really played this series at all and are just realizing these are common themes in it.
2.- You did play a few games, but the core themes just flew over your head because of lack of attention or capacity to understand them.
3.- You have played FF and know these themes are in the series, and thus you're making this post conciously in bad faith to pick a bone with CBUIII for some reason.

I don't know which one of the three is worse, but none of the posts you've ever made has made much sense.

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The themes in themselves are fine, but it is the constant repetition and unbelievable depiction of humans wrestling with that philosophy that is the problem. Again, doing it once or twice is fine, like in a single-player RPG. However, doing it again and again with no grace is the problem.

As with your snide remark on Leviathan, your dissent has already been addressed in that thread, before you even posted there. Leviathan is in the lore of FF16. The lack of appearance means that there is material for them to use for a DLC. Your dissent only makes sense if Leviathan is not in the lore at all in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I think the reason for it is because this is what Final Fantasy games often try to do. Through their adventure they enter doubts and depressions and question the meaning of life and what they are fighting for, and Yoshi-P wanted to take that from the Final Fantasy games and do it in all this game's expansions as well.

Apparently EW resonated a lot with people suffering from depression who had not benefitted from any other sort of therapies, so it was a good thing for that reason alone.

The expansions can do this sort of thing whilst still having proper character development because it happened in some of the old final fantasy games. If they tackle depression, they can just do it in a way where the depression affects a particular character such as Thancred and watching him go through this whole period of depression and then come out of it and overcome the last boss with you.

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That is also a big problem. None of the main cast is suffering which makes the whole ordeal feel quite unrelated to us.

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Originally Posted by Lieri

Pray return to world of warcraft. No lectures here just dwagons and titans.

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So is this the "go play other games" I keep hearing? I mean don't get me wrong I did pick up WoW on sale an re-subbed to it but you can still want better from a product especially one prided on the story as highly as 14 is and it seems clear to me that Endwalker does have a ton of faults on the rather shallow or incorrectly shown messaging as evidenced by the several times this comes up on the forums. Again I can see why people liked Endwalker's story but I also can look and see the arguments of "You know when you think of it this is kinda messed up ain't it?".

Funny enough one thing without spoilers I liked about 16 was the ending section and Clive embodying a lot of what I felt Endwalker needed for me to care.

It's hard to write an interesting story that's not going to have some philosophical point involved, and there will always be those who go searching for it then pointing it out to everyone around them.

I can agree it would be nice if they would at least vary up the theme a bit more. The "oh you were right, I was bad, I will be better from now on" does get a bit tedious with repetition though it doesn't bother me that much as long as I'm enjoying the story overall.

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Originally Posted by tsuchii

Is this ragebait? LOL
That's not a valid feedback. You can't just demand a game developer what they should and should not go creative-wise. It's their story to tell.

That kind of storytelling you are describing has always been a signature of the Final Fantasy main titles. Character development doesn't always have to be drastic to be interesting or nuanced. But yea, you are entitled to your wrong opinion.

If you want other styles or stories, there are plenty of other options outside of XIV.

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It is valid feedback.

I don't see any demand language being used by the OP. I do see request language being used.

No need to get on the OP's case over this.

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Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

I swear, a ton of you people sound like you did not even pay attention to the EW story lol, these forums never disappoint with the hot takes.

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Or people did pay attention to the story and got something different out of it because their life experience is different from yours.

One thing I've always hated about literature discussion is the "experts" insist there is only one correct interpretation for a piece of work even when the author states things are left open for the reader to interpret as they wish.