Why balance jobs to just high-end raids?

I don’t see the point in balancing jobs to high end raids. Even if you balance jobs so they’re all playable in high end content, raiders will still meta chase and use mods and tools to make their experience easier. Meanwhile, because jobs aren’t balanced to casual content, some jobs take more effort than others to clear content because of the huge discrepancy in how much skill is needed to play a job, which doesn’t exist in 8-man content because that’s where jobs are balanced. In 4-person content such as dungeons, the effort discrepancy between the job that requires the least effort to play and the job that requires the most effort to play is big to the point where it’s not worth playing certain jobs in 4-man content. But in 8-man hard content, even the job that requires the most amount of effort is not that different compared to the job that requires little effort.
I don’t get why casual players need to put more effort in playing the job they like in content they want to play while high end players get to put the same amount of effort into each job to do the same thing. I think jobs should be more balanced towards casual content because so the amount of skill and effort required to clear is not so wide between jobs while it doesn’t matter if the skill gap is wide for high end content because raiders often just end up gravitating towards the easier job anyways.

Because to a (shrinking) part of the playerbase, the job that requires the most "effort" is often times the most fun.
Don't worry though, the game is quickly homogenizing the jobs so that they all require just one braincell to execute.

Just have patience little bro.

Because every combat content below savage is trivial where you dont need to perform to the best of your ability to clear.

Because that's the only place where balance matters.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

Don't worry though, the game is quickly homogenizing the jobs so that they all require just one braincell to execute.

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That might be the case for high-end content, but for every time they balance jobs to high end content the effort gap for casual content becomes wider and wider. Jobs that are easy for high end content end up becoming stronger in casual content, while jobs that are considered already strong in high end content becomes worse in casual content. Homogenization currently only helps high end players have an easier time with the job they want to play, not casual players.

Job balance in normal content is completely irrelevant since it's designed to be face rolled anyway. No mildly skilled group will ever have to put in any sort of real effort in normal content, it's all just auto pilot.

I admit, I always shake my head at the high end players complaining about the game being dumbed down, and then sure enough, most of them take the easiest possible route to clear the hardest content. It goes to show you that most people don't really want a challenge, they just want the reward.

Reminds me of Elder Scrolls Online. ESO is having an argument lately where the hardcore players are frustrated because a 'easy' build is now able to do around 80% of the dps of the 'hard' build, and sure enough, most of the hardcore players are choosing to use the 'easy' build.

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

Homogenization currently only helps high end players have an easier time with the job they want to play, not casual players.

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And that in turn results in the job being easier to play.
If you're having doubts about the direction job design is going, take a look at SMN and MCH.
Those are the latest examples of "complete reworks" they've done recently.

You're going to be fine. You are the game's target audience. Yoshi-P will always deliver.

Why wouldn't they balance the jobs around end game gameplay, when you can just roll your head on the keyboard and it works anyway in casual content ?

Also no, raiders don't chase meta or external tools of whatever. Keep your lens off the world first racers.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

You're going to be fine. You are the game's target audience. Yoshi-P will always deliver.

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I know :) It's wonderful.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

I know :) It's wonderful.

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Oh I agree! So true bestie!

But it's truly a problem. At first MCH was so weak in raiding that it sometimes even got excluded in partyfinder and now they buffed it so much that MCH dominates in dps in most casual content.
If you take a look at the number in the group list (aggro list), then MCH is most of the time at the top. As a main MCH I could be happy but I am not. I would prefer a better balance.

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Originally Posted by Heavenchild

But it's truly a problem. At first MCH was so weak in raiding that it sometimes even got excluded in partyfinder and now they buffed it so much that MCH dominates in dps in most casual content.
If you take a look at the number in the group list (aggro list), then MCH is most of the time at the top. As a main MCH I could be happy but I am not. I would prefer a better balance.

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The only real way for them to have perfect balance is to pretty much just have every job have the same buttons, have the same numbers, have the same uptime and have the same resources, downtime strategy, crit rate, crit swing and damage swing. That was kinda the point of Shadowbringers job design and onward. Any variance in gameplay would result in number differences, and that is considered not very cash money by the community.

I think they're doing a good job though. SAM being auto crit and losing their DH/SKS builds is a step going towards that. Melee losing their downtime as a result of raid bosses having very large hitboxes is a large step forward towards that goal too. Eventually every job will actually play the same across the spectrum, and not just amongst their roles. Just have patience. It'll get there.

Personally, I'm betting on crit being removed. Maybe Battle Litany will be changed to function the same as Arcane Circle. Or even just remove damage swings in general.

There is no way to balance jobs around people who just don't push buttons.



Well there is, and that's trusts, but the people who should be using them probably aren't using them.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

I admit, I always shake my head at the high end players complaining about the game being dumbed down, and then sure enough, most of them take the easiest possible route to clear the hardest content. It goes to show you that most people don't really want a challenge, they just want the reward.

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Criterion pretty much already proved that. People screamed for years on these forums for hard 4-man content and swore up and down they just wanted a challenge and didn't even need rewards. Lo and behold, now they won't do it because it doesn't have rewards. I always respected the one or two who were like "Of course I'm not going to do it unless it also has a good reward" because at least they were honest about it.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

The only real way for them to have perfect balance is to pretty much just have every job have the same buttons, have the same numbers, have the same uptime and have the same resources, downtime strategy, crit rate, crit swing and damage swing. That was kinda the point of Shadowbringers job design and onward. Any variance in gameplay would result in number differences, and that is considered not very cash money by the community.

I think they're doing a good job though. SAM being auto crit and losing their DH/SKS builds is a step going towards that. Melee losing their downtime as a result of raid bosses having very large hitboxes is a large step forward towards that goal too. Eventually every job will actually play the same across the spectrum, and not just amongst their roles. Just have patience. It'll get there.

Personally, I'm betting on crit being removed. Maybe Battle Litany will be changed to function the same as Arcane Circle. Or even just remove damage swings in general.

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In the future I hope all DPS and Tank players can experience the sheer brilliance and joy that is the healer gameplay experience.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

In the future I hope all DPS and Tank players can experience the sheer brilliance and joy that is the healer gameplay experience.

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In the future, itll only be just one job. Freelancer.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Criterion pretty much already proved that. People screamed for years on these forums for hard 4-man content and swore up and down they just wanted a challenge and didn't even need rewards. Lo and behold, now they won't do it because it doesn't have rewards. I always respected the one or two who were like "Of course I'm not going to do it unless it also has a good reward" because at least they were honest about it.

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This is just blatant double standards. Everyone does content for the rewards, not just high end players. Literally all content of the game would get instantly deserted without a goal or a carrot to do it again.
Fun only gets you so far.

Not only that but not everyone can just form a static of 4 players. Without a good reward structure, how can you possibly pug this content a week after most those who were interested already got their first and only clear?

Wait, casual content requires effort? Since when?

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Originally Posted by Teno

Also no, raiders don't chase meta or external tools of whatever. Keep your lens off the world first racers.

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This isn't just about world first racers. I spent some time lurking in a few places high-end raiders tend to congregate. One of the things mentioned in convos in these places were "sims" and "automarkers" that were recommended to people trying to prog Ultimates or do them through Party Finder. Someone even bemoaned about how "automarkers" are starting to be used for content that was previously cleared in PF without them. And people talk about party comps all the time. In another convo, someone asked about playing caster in TOP and was responded with "just don't play BLM."It might not be as outright, but high end raiders do metachase in order to clear content.

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

This isn't just about world first racers. I spent some time lurking in a few places high-end raiders tend to congregate. One of the things mentioned in convos in these places were "sims" and "automarkers" that were recommended to people trying to prog Ultimates or do them through Party Finder. Someone even bemoaned about how "automarkers" are starting to be used for content that was previously cleared in PF without them. And people talk about party comps all the time. In another convo, someone asked about playing caster in TOP and was responded with "just don't play BLM."It might not be as outright, but high end raiders do metachase in order to clear content.

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"I paint everyone with the same brush", the post.

In my opinion, balancing the jobs really is just about making sure each role has an engaging toolkit and does nearly equal dps(per role). From what I've seen, most of the jobs are fine in that regard, except for maybe the healers. Don't most of them only have 2 dps buttons for single target situations? If so, that sucks. To add, balancing jobs for high end is where it matters because other content doesn't challenge people enough for balance to matter.

Man I'd kill for just... jobs feeling GOOD across all content. 90% of this game tosses you into downsynced content that feels like shit to do because you're missing skills or you're cockblocked from even pulling off your rotation. This insistence that the only content allowed to flow well and feel good should be limited to a small niche area of the game is so lazy. I'm thinking now of when Yoshi told healers to just play ultimates if they wanted an engaging experience. Literally the most niche 1% tier of content in the entire game. So what the head dev is telling me is that if I'm a healer and I don't want to fall asleep in your game, 99% of the content available isn't going to cut it. That sounds like a cop out to me. If the gameplay loop is fun at its core, then doing ezmode content becomes enjoyable because the job you're playing is fun.

Hell, even outside the realm of downsynced content, in the vast majority of level 90 content stuff dies before it can even do its mechanics, healers feel totally unnecessary, downtime/mid-fight cutscenes will occur right as players are about to go into their bursts (which all feel railroaded thanks to the new 2m setup we're forced into, yet we still have situations like these that feel like shit), I could go on. Euphrosyne for example, is level 90 content that's normal difficulty and it feels like a boring slog because the outgoing damage is pitifully low, the dps checks are a joke, the mechanical aspects are recycled from older content, the bosses have so little hp that they melt before they can even finish teaching you their mechanics, and they have this gross habit of disappearing right as your railroaded 2m burst comes up, as if the devs knew how hard they were pigeonholing us with this 2m meta and then decided to just ... go out of their way to blueball us on purpose.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

The only real way for them to have perfect balance is to pretty much just have every job have the same buttons, have the same numbers, have the same uptime and have the same resources, downtime strategy, crit rate, crit swing and damage swing. That was kinda the point of Shadowbringers job design and onward. Any variance in gameplay would result in number differences, and that is considered not very cash money by the community.

I think they're doing a good job though. SAM being auto crit and losing their DH/SKS builds is a step going towards that. Melee losing their downtime as a result of raid bosses having very large hitboxes is a large step forward towards that goal too. Eventually every job will actually play the same across the spectrum, and not just amongst their roles. Just have patience. It'll get there.

Personally, I'm betting on crit being removed. Maybe Battle Litany will be changed to function the same as Arcane Circle. Or even just remove damage swings in general.

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The MCH problem was the really bad rDPS (raid dps). Because MCH has no partybuff for dps like DNC or BRD. But instead of giving MCH the needed party-dps-buff (for example with a skill like 'scanner', that finds out a week point or sth like that), they buffed the potency again and again und gave MCH a skill that lowers the enemies dps. :')

I like that skill but it could not solve the problem this class had. And now this range-dps dominates in casual content. It is not really good if people are top-dps in the group just because their class is out of balance. :')
That's also somehow a 'bad feedback' for the players.

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

Man I'd kill for just... jobs feeling GOOD across all content. 90% of this game tosses you into downsynced content that feels like shit to do because you're missing skills or you're cockblocked from even pulling off your rotation. This insistence that the only content allowed to flow well and feel good should be limited to a small niche area of the game is so lazy. I'm thinking now of when Yoshi told healers to just play ultimates if they wanted an engaging experience. Literally the most niche 1% tier of content in the entire game. So what the head dev is telling me is that if I'm a healer and I don't want to fall asleep in your game, 99% of the content available isn't going to cut it. That sounds like a cop out to me. If the gameplay loop is fun at its core, then doing ezmode content becomes enjoyable because the job you're playing is fun.

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Been told numerous times to go play Ultimate after I lost my Kaiten by many friends... and there was no joy in it...

Complexity from content is no where near the same as Complexity/Depth/Nuances from your favorite Job... Content mastery will never be as meaningful to me vs Class mastery in almost any MMO I ever played, yet I am being sold on FFXIV that its the reverse here which is a load of horse radish. It's soulless. I went from being a Raider? to becoming a Gposer/Housing decorator out of Copium. I enjoy it? but that's how bad the changes have been. Doing content has never been this boring because my Job was never this boring...

Keep my Job fun? and content is more likely Fun to do, no matter how boring the content is. Keep my Job braindead? then no matter how amazing the content or raid or ultimate is going to be? my Job... my favorite Job? might as well be dead to me which makes the content dead to me.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Criterion pretty much already proved that. People screamed for years on these forums for hard 4-man content and swore up and down they just wanted a challenge and didn't even need rewards. Lo and behold, now they won't do it because it doesn't have rewards. I always respected the one or two who were like "Of course I'm not going to do it unless it also has a good reward" because at least they were honest about it.

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Way to lump everyone together with a pretty baseless accusation. Most players, regardless of skill level, aren't going to spam any piece of content without some form of rewards unless there are other incentives. You're also ignoring why Criterion Savage is hard compared to say, Ultimate. It isn't because of a mechanical dance or a grindy DPS check but because of Raise restriction. Play absolute perfect or do the whole 20+ slog all over again. Oh and it's exactly the same as the "Extreme" version except for even less rewards since you don't even get tokens towards the throne mount.

Nobody is going to spam either version of Criterion after doing it once or twice when there's literal no incentive. They've overcome the challenge, so why bother? The few people who said they'll still do it for challenge sake are still doing it. Most players never said they would and have moved on or didn't bother to begin with. You're conflating the few with the many.

As for the thread at hand. Balance only matters in high end content, specifically Savage and Ultimate, because it's the only content that actually threatens the player. The new dungeon coming out in 6.4 will have an ilvl of 605. That's essentially what our ilvl could reach when the first tier of Savage launched. Meanwhile, the crafted gear alone will be 640. Every single job will utterly decimate that dungeon. So who cares if Machinist is better than Bard or Dragoon better than Monk? None of it matters when you're rolfstomping everything in sight. You don't even need to heal tanks anymore, especially Warrior.

Speaking of Warrior, despite a lot of casual players whining at how powerful it is in dungeons, it's been among the weakest tanks in high end content because oh, look, Bloodwhetting isn't actually all that great in a single target setting where tank busters do far and away more damage than you'll ever heal. In fact, the job has been buffed in every single patch since Asphodelos and they still have to buff it again come 6.4 because it can't keep up with Dark Knight, the tank those same casual players think sucks.

It's almost like casual content is irrelevant in terms of balancing which is why they don't consider it.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

This is just blatant double standards. Everyone does content for the rewards, not just high end players. Literally all content of the game would get instantly deserted without a goal or a carrot to do it again.
Fun only gets you so far.

Not only that but not everyone can just form a static of 4 players. Without a good reward structure, how can you possibly pug this content a week after most those who were interested already got their first and only clear?

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That's exactly my point. There were people on these forums who swore they would do it no matter what for the challenge and it didn't need rewards. And it was absolute bs because SE gave them exactly what they said they wanted and now they won't do it. They don't want the challenge. The want the reward to lord over others. That's why people stand around with their Ultimate weapons in high traffic areas. So why should SE make content for a static of 4 players instead of something with wider appeal?

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

That's exactly my point. There were people on these forums who swore they would do it no matter what for the challenge and it didn't need rewards. And it was absolute bs because SE gave them exactly what they said they wanted and now they won't do it. They don't want the challenge. The want the reward to lord over others. That's why people stand around with their Ultimate weapons in high traffic areas. So why should SE make content for a static of 4 players instead of something with wider appeal?

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And will you provide any proof that the people who asked for that type of content:
- Claimed they weren't interested in the rewards
- Still complained that the rewards weren't good enough
- Represent most people who asked for that content.

Because so far it seems to me that you're just creating your own imaginary enemies here.

(If aveyond is mentionned again as a boogeyman for an entire part of the community I swear...)

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

I don’t see the point in balancing jobs to high end raids.

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Balancing based on the toughest content will set the Limits of what Jobs are allowed to do, creating a baseline for balancing everything else in the game. Do this in reverse? and it will make no sense, breaking the game. Raiders flocking to what's easiest to play? will become the least of our worries then... What I have an issue with is Square's obsessive focus on " Perfect Balance " that is impossible to achieve. Every Job would need to play the exact same way, same roles, same stats, same damage, same everything even the same one button rotation because that's what it will take to reach Perfect Balance. That kicks the Fun out of a Game all for Perfect Balance that is unobtainable.

We're noticing that a lot of skills mirror each-other even when they are from completely different Jobs, kicking the uniqueness out of them. Balancing High-End raids? does not need to come a the cost of ruining how fun Jobs can be or how unique they should feel, neither vice versa. Time will tell, cause they are slowly but surely seem to want to make everything dumber...

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

That's exactly my point. There were people on these forums who swore they would do it no matter what for the challenge and it didn't need rewards. And it was absolute bs because SE gave them exactly what they said they wanted and now they won't do it. They don't want the challenge. The want the reward to lord over others. That's why people stand around with their Ultimate weapons in high traffic areas. So why should SE make content for a static of 4 players instead of something with wider appeal?

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"The forums only make up a very tiny fraction of the playerbase. Most players are just enjoying the game!"

How come this argument isn't being applied to those clearing Criterion or Ultimate? Because you do realize the overwhelming majority don't give a damn about "lording over others" and just did the content for themselves, or didn't due to the lackluster incentive, yes? What's funny is even less people than the fraction posting here ever said they'd not only do challenging content for the sake of it but also continuously spam it for zero rewards. Once again, you're conflating a minority of a minority and attempting to argue the whole high end community thinks this way.

With all that said, I do actually think the supposed "Extreme" version should actually be that: an Extreme version that is more pugging while still retaining a noticeable step up from casual content like 24 mans. Criterion does kind of sit in no man's land right now, partly due to having no real demographic its targeting but largely because of its awful reward structure.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Complexity from content is no where near the same as Complexity/Depth/Nuances from your favorite Job... Content mastery will never be as meaningful to me vs Class mastery in almost any MMO I ever played, yet I am being sold on FFXIV that its the reverse here which is a load of horse radish. It's soulless.

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I've had a conversation with a friend who's trying to convince me about how good FFXIV is again the other day and it's funny how we both kinda agreed on the fact that spamming ONE button in Path of Exile is more satisfying than doing your entire rotation in FFXIV just because of how interesting the interactions are in PoE than in FFXIV.

Apples to Oranges comparison I know, but it kinda illuminated the fact that there's not really a lot of meaningful interactions in PvE job rotations in the Shadowbringers era compared to the ARR->HW->SB era. "Difficulty" in PvE job rotations right now are basically pressing a bunch of Shinten clones on cooldown in-between GCDs without any thought put into it, which makes it a lot less engaging compared to games with less buttons but with more meaningful interactions behind their actions.

I guess the proper comparison is the difference between the PvP and PvE toolkits, with PvP having more interactions and thus more engaging gameplay with less button bloat, and with PvE having filler 250 potency OGCDs that you press on cooldown, and the rotation of every job being designed around having full striking dummy uptime 24/7 with as little friction as possible (proved by the fact that every player moans about their cooldowns whenever you get forced to downtime in like 3 fights or something).

I can relate to you though. The only reason why I sub every now and then is to talk with friends. I just kinda treat this game as Gaia online successor with tacked on raiding.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

I've had a conversation with a friend who's trying to convince me about how good FFXIV is again the other day and it's funny how we both kinda agreed on the fact that spamming ONE button in Path of Exile is more satisfying than doing your entire rotation in FFXIV just because of how interesting the interactions are in PoE than in FFXIV.

Apples to Oranges comparison I know, but it kinda illuminated the fact that there's not really a lot of meaningful interactions in PvE job rotations in the Shadowbringers era compared to the ARR->HW->SB era. "Difficulty" in PvE job rotations right now are basically pressing a bunch of Shinten clones on cooldown in-between GCDs without any thought put into it, which makes it a lot less engaging compared to games with less buttons but with more meaningful interactions behind their actions.

I guess the proper comparison is the difference between the PvP and PvE toolkits, with PvP having more interactions and thus more engaging gameplay with less button bloat, and with PvE having filler 250 potency GCDs that you press on cooldown, and the rotation of every job being designed around having full striking dummy uptime 24/7 with as little friction as possible (proved by the fact that every player moans about their cooldowns whenever you get forced to downtime in like 3 fights or something).

I can relate to you though. The only reason why I sub every now and then is to talk with friends. I just kinda treat this game as Gaia online successor with tacked on raiding.

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https://i.ibb.co/Q67vX04/X.gif

Someone freaking gets me!!!
I feel that way with other MMO's I used to play.

And that's purely why I stay subbed, not cause I enjoy content? but because I enjoy doing anything with friends. Content is boring though. I will do Savage while watching Netflix at this point. I became a housing decorator/Gposer even though the appeal was the Story? that turned into Samurai and Raiding... ironic... That what made me love FFXIV is the PvE combat of Samurai and raiding with my Samurai. What makes me despise it? are the changes to my Job and what PvE combat has turned into and raiding...

I'm not wishing it to fail either... I want it to improve otherwise I would not be posting or ranting so much about it. I wished it at least be as fun how it used to be for me... but for now? it's just Housing honestly and helping friends and party finders clear fights.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

Wait, casual content requires effort? Since when?

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I wouldn't say casual content requires a lot of effort, but if you look between jobs in a role you can see the skill floor for jobs varies more. For instance it takes less effort to do dungeons as WAR than as a DRK, the difference being for one tank you only need to press one button to succeed while the other requires you to press many at a time. The same can be said for WHM versus other healers. I just think that the skill difference between jobs when doing casual content shouldn't be so different, unlike high end content where it doesn't matter because people will find a way around it.

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

I don’t see the point in balancing jobs to high end raids.

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So that the raids... are balanced. Raids have enrages. Normal content doesn't and is meant to be easy, therefore the balance doesn't really matter.

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Even if you balance jobs so they’re all playable in high end content, raiders will still meta chase and use mods and tools to make their experience easier.

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Not everyone does these things. Only some people do. It's not worth caring about the people that do, as you said, because they will do those things regardless. The content should be designed for people who don't do these things, such as people who join a PF ignoring metas, or using a PS5 that can't have mods.

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

I wouldn't say casual content requires a lot of effort, but if you look between jobs in a role you can see the skill floor for jobs varies more. For instance it takes less effort to do dungeons as WAR than as a DRK, the difference being for one tank you only need to press one button to succeed while the other requires you to press many at a time. The same can be said for WHM versus other healers. I just think that the skill difference between jobs when doing casual content shouldn't be so different, unlike high end content where it doesn't matter because people will find a way around it.

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... you can't possibly be serious with this? While yes, Bloodwhetting is hilariously broken in dungeons. You're actually trying to argue that Dark Knight having to press TBN, Rampart and maybe Oblation is enough of a "skill" difference to warrant focusing balance on dungeon farming? If the "skill" necessary for Warrior in an AoE pull is 1/10 then it's 2/10 for the other tanks. At which point who even cares? They're all incredibly easy and overpowered because we're ridiculously higher level than the mobs.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

... you can't possibly be serious with this? While yes, Bloodwhetting is hilariously broken in dungeons. You're actually trying to argue that Dark Knight having to press TBN, Rampart and maybe Oblation is enough of a "skill" difference to warrant focusing balance on dungeon farming? If the "skill" necessary for Warrior in an AoE pull is 1/10 than it's 2/10 for the other tanks. At which point who even cares? They're all incredibly easy and overpowered because we're ridiculously higher level than the mobs.

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No no, Forte. You don't understand. We need to dumb all of the jobs down as far as possible so it's fair. You might need to press two buttons instead of one and that's such a difficult imposition.

Oh but it's dirty cheating toxic elitist raiders who *really* want the game as easy as possible. Coming up with strategies for difficult content means they just want easy clears. This isn't projection at all.

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

Man I'd kill for just... jobs feeling GOOD across all content. 90% of this game tosses you into downsynced content that feels like shit to do because you're missing skills or you're cockblocked from even pulling off your rotation. This insistence that the only content allowed to flow well and feel good should be limited to a small niche area of the game is so lazy. I'm thinking now of when Yoshi told healers to just play ultimates if they wanted an engaging experience. Literally the most niche 1% tier of content in the entire game. So what the head dev is telling me is that if I'm a healer and I don't want to fall asleep in your game, 99% of the content available isn't going to cut it. That sounds like a cop out to me. If the gameplay loop is fun at its core, then doing ezmode content becomes enjoyable because the job you're playing is fun.

Hell, even outside the realm of downsynced content, in the vast majority of level 90 content stuff dies before it can even do its mechanics, healers feel totally unnecessary, downtime/mid-fight cutscenes will occur right as players are about to go into their bursts (which all feel railroaded thanks to the new 2m setup we're forced into, yet we still have situations like these that feel like shit), I could go on. Euphrosyne for example, is level 90 content that's normal difficulty and it feels like a boring slog because the outgoing damage is pitifully low, the dps checks are a joke, the mechanical aspects are recycled from older content, the bosses have so little hp that they melt before they can even finish teaching you their mechanics, and they have this gross habit of disappearing right as your railroaded 2m burst comes up, as if the devs knew how hard they were pigeonholing us with this 2m meta and then decided to just ... go out of their way to blueball us on purpose.

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You're making some really good points there.

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

I don’t see the point in balancing jobs to high end raids. Even if you balance jobs so they’re all playable in high end content, raiders will still meta chase and use mods and tools to make their experience easier. Meanwhile, because jobs aren’t balanced to casual content, some jobs take more effort than others to clear content because of the huge discrepancy in how much skill is needed to play a job, which doesn’t exist in 8-man content because that’s where jobs are balanced. In 4-person content such as dungeons, the effort discrepancy between the job that requires the least effort to play and the job that requires the most effort to play is big to the point where it’s not worth playing certain jobs in 4-man content. But in 8-man hard content, even the job that requires the most amount of effort is not that different compared to the job that requires little effort.
I don’t get why casual players need to put more effort in playing the job they like in content they want to play while high end players get to put the same amount of effort into each job to do the same thing. I think jobs should be more balanced towards casual content because so the amount of skill and effort required to clear is not so wide between jobs while it doesn’t matter if the skill gap is wide for high end content because raiders often just end up gravitating towards the easier job anyways.

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Because they sucked at balancing for 3 expansions now they are overcompensating.

They should not make jobs easy to play, a fewof them is, and they tend to be used for savage and ultimates as well, because they can't deal with actually having a difficult job to play.

Fun should go way beyond one button behaviour... and I think it is torment and punishment enough that you have a one button game for the first dungeons and group contet in game like Satasha.

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

I wouldn't say casual content requires a lot of effort, but if you look between jobs in a role you can see the skill floor for jobs varies more. For instance it takes less effort to do dungeons as WAR than as a DRK, the difference being for one tank you only need to press one button to succeed while the other requires you to press many at a time. The same can be said for WHM versus other healers. I just think that the skill difference between jobs when doing casual content shouldn't be so different, unlike high end content where it doesn't matter because people will find a way around it.

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This right here is why the trust system is bad. This post made absolutely no sense lol. Literally all the tanks can sleep walk through normal content.