DRK has become so utterly simple and repetitive in its rotation (like most tanks, really). Why not make tanks more satisfying to play?
Giving DRK some actual dark magic spells as in FFXI would make the job a lot more awesome and interesting, while also tactical. Here are my ideas.
Remember: it's just an overview and nothing more.
DRK suggested changes:
Hard Slash Combo:
Replace with Power Slash combo. Much more good looking and satisfying to use. Power slash still absorbs damage as HP, same as Souleater.
Unleash / Stalwart Soul:
Increase radius and damage via passive. Otherwise untouched.
Grit:
Untouched.
Unmend:
Untouched.
Flood of Darkness/Shadow:
Replace with Dark Driver.
Blood Weapon:
Change effect: Increase damage at the cost of HP per hit. Duration: 20s. 90s CD.
Edge of Darkness/Shadow:
Reduce MP consumption to 1500. 25s CD. Still procs when TBN is consumed (CD resets to zero and it's free).
Dark Mind:
Remove.
Living Dead:
Reduce CD to 120s. Increase duration to 15s.
Carve and Spit:
Remove.
Bloodspiller:
Completely rework animation to make it more satisfying to use. Otherwise untouched.
Quietus:
Increase damage to 350, improve FX and animation, and slightly increase radius.
Delirium:
Untouched.
TBN:
Rework animation and FX. Otherwise untouched.
Dark Missionary:
Remove.
Living Shadow (and all its passives):
Remove.
Salted Earth/Salt and Darkness:
Reduce CD to 60s. Increase radius slightly, increas potency to 150 and duration to 20s. Absorbs a small portion of HP of enemies inside the area each second.
Abyssal Drain:
AoE HP absorb. 3.5s spellcasting animation. Cost: 6000MP. Same CD.
Oblation:
Untouched.
Shadowbringer:
Increase potency to 900.
Shadow Wall:
Untouched.
Reprisal:
Becomes a DRK-exclusive skill like before and not a role action. Increase duration to 20s. Damage dealt by nearby enemies reduced by 15%.
ADD:
Drain / Drain II (via passive):
Dark magic spell. 600 magic potency damage while absorbing part of the damage as HP. 3s spellcasting animation. Cost: 3000MP. 60s CD. Does not work on undead and automatons.
Aspir / Aspir II (via passive):
Dark magic spell. 3s spellcasting animation. 60s CD. Does not work on undead and automatons.
Absorb-STR:
Dakr magic spell. Reduces enemy STR while boosting your own. 3.5s spellcasting animation. 60s CD. Cost: 4000MP. STR buff duration: 30s.
Absorb-ACC/DEX:
Dark magic spell. Reduces enemy DEX/Acc while boosting your own and increasing critical rate. 60s CD. Cost: 4000MP. DEX/Acc buff duration: 30s.
DRK changes that would make it really fun to play
Printable View
-
11-24-2022, 03:22 AMRyskimDRK changes that would make it really fun to play
-
11-24-2022, 03:44 PMArchwizard
Oh... oh no. There's so many imbalanced things here, and a few that would make the job feel so much worse.
Like, you want to add MULTIPLE 3s and 3.5s casting animation spells to a tank? Spells longer than the GCD, which means you would need to slot in Spell Speed just to make them bearable, on a tank, in ADDITION to its Skill Speed requirements?
... It would overnight create the argument not to combine those two stats into one, that's for sure... but gearing would be a nightmare...
You understand that PLD can make its spells instant, right? And generally prefers to since you can't Block, Parry, or move while casting? And also needs that time to weave in oGCDs like its mitigation? And even its hardcasts are half as long as what you propose?
Like, with the number of spells you put in, did you even consider how much of each fight a DRK would have to spend casting? I see 5 cast times here on a 60 sec CD, so ignoring MP for a second, that's over a quarter of your rotation every fight.
And you haven't even included a trait like PLD gets to be immune to interruption if something hits you too hard, which... tank.
The only reason you would ask for this is if you're a RPR main who loves hard-casting Communio at the end of Lemure Shroud and want every MP spender to feel like Communio... and forgot that Communio isn't even 3.5 sec cast. The only Black Mage spell that long is Flare, and at least they get Triplecast from that deal; ask them how they feel about long cast times and I swear to you they would never say "I'd play DRK if it had spells like us and no Swiftcast."
Every single MP skill* is on a CD, so if you manage to overcap on MP or don't have a chance to spend 3 seconds casting, tough luck. The MP costs themselves are all over the place and seem pretty arbitrary in spite of their CDs matching. Most of them are also on the GCD to boot... because they have a cast time.
* Except for Dark Driver... because you didn't explain at all what "Dark Driver" is, since it's not some classic skill for the job or recognizable attack like DRGs got from Nidhogg. The only thing that comes up from multiple web searches is that it's the title you get from "A Tankless Job 1 (Dark Knight)".
Is it some DRK-style Stardiver? ... Did you mean Dark Passenger?
A damage buff that costs HP had promise... until you mentioned that it costs HP on every hit.
Y'know how Bloodwhetting can fully heal a WAR in under 4 sec in AoE? Imagine that in the opposite direction.
What happens if the buff would lower you below 1 HP -- do you die? Does the buff fall off and waste the remainder of the CD?
Living Dead on 250% faster CD and 50% longer duration would be far and away the most overpowered Invuln available to any tank, since it would be Holmgang on steroids.
Admittedly Living Dead (and Holmgang)'s effects can probably offset the chance of Blood Weapon killing you, but then we're talking about popping your Invuln as part of your damage rotation, aren't we?
Your Absorb skill suggestions are probably the biggest offenders -- the EW change to Feint was partly inspired by how mob damage is unclear about its contributions from Strength vs Dexterity (we only just got confirmation on a QoL change to even see Physical vs Magical damage), and now you want to separate those effects? Like, do you happen to know offhand which bosses use Dex to attack?
The stats you have for Reprisal are completely bonkers, since it has the same potency as Passage (and a slightly longer duration to boot) at no uptime loss to the DRK.
And, for the kicker, you removed Dark Missionary in order to emphasize the Absorb spells and Reprisal as DRK's group-wide mitigation -- neat on paper, but what do you do when the enemy can't be targeted? Or when the enemy is completely Immune? Hell, what do you do if your roulette gives you two DRK tanks who can't stack the same debuff on the boss? Because those are issues with the existing Reprisal.
The only things I've seen in here that seem to nudge towards "making the job feel more fun to play" are just the notes to have some skills "rework the animation to feel more satisfying to use", which... isn't any specific in most cases and doesn't really impact gameplay.
Not to mention, personally I think Bloodspiller looks great as-is, it just doesn't feel proportionally impactful cuz it's just a weaker knockoff of Fell Cleave. -
11-24-2022, 04:57 PMFlay_wind
Dood, which part of the suggested changes is supposed to be fun?
That would cause so much unnecessary headache i am not even sure where to start. 3s casting spells? On a TANK? What if you need to move? Or mitigate next attack? Or you're forcefully moved by a knockback effect? What if you need to look in a specific direction? All of these would interrupt the cast.
You want to remove Dark Mind and Dark Missionary and leave OBLATION untouched? I'd want some of what you're smoking.
Edit: Also what were you trying to achieve with this?
Abyssal Drain:
AoE HP absorb. 3.5s spellcasting animation. Cost: 6000MP. 90s CD. -
11-24-2022, 07:14 PMReinhardt_Azureheim
Putting aside the sentiments I share with the other two...
2min Living Dead? Really?
Im not against HP-Spender DRK and I firmly believe it is possible to design a tank around that, but this isn't the way to do it. -
11-24-2022, 10:18 PMRithy255
I'll just list out some things I disagree with, don't get me wrong I want Dark knight changed but not like this...
1. Removed Actions, Dark Mind, I'm generally not opposed to this but I think it should just apply a "10%" or something to physical damage while being slightly stronger aganist magic damage so it would still be a useful action, Carve and spit, yeah I don't really mind that being removed, Dark Missionary? nah it doesn't need to be removed I'll get onto your reprisal change later... Living shadow, I mean sure? I don't like the ability personally feels like a damage over time that walks around.
2. Changed Actions.... Living dead being on 120? what Invuls shouldn't be below anything that current warrior has, 120? no. They need to change PLD's invul more then anything to be shorter in general invuls need some look at but not made very short, Blood weapon... No Hp drain really doesn't work on a tank, the tank will always use the HP drain and expect the healers or other tank to pick up their mess eating up their resources so the drk can get max damage, Hard slash combo? I rather DRK get something unique to it's rotational gameplay (Dark Arts? perhaps...) something that sets DRK away from the warrior but more busy playstyle. Edge of darkness? I'm sorry I don't really think your changes here make sense. Reprisal? No First off why remove it from all tanks apart from Dark knight? Tanks having at least 2 raid wide mitigations are a good thing, I personally believe they could/should even get stronger raid wides and play a stronger part in helping healers.
3. "Unchanged" stuff TBN, I personally think this skill needs a rework I don't like not being able to use it in "non optiomal" or situations where it wont break, a lot of the time during autos the boss decides to cast and it can be annoying, I understand people generally like the nature of this ability but I personally think it just punishes the DRK for using a defensive skill while the other tanks get to use for free. I feel like DRK can be a interesting tank without a janky CD. Oblation? also I don't like this ability feels underwhelming to me...
I think the issue I have is generally these changes don't really consider how the current game works and why you can't have a tank who drains their own Hp or a tank with a 120 CD invul, Instead I think giving Dark Knight a more Interesting rotation, working on skills and defensives to stand out but also be useful and not punishing (perhaps rewarding for correct use cases would be better), To be fair Dark knight is a powerful tank in the meta right now but It doesn't mean people have problems with it. -
11-25-2022, 07:56 AMReinhardt_Azureheim
I'd like to point out that Oblation is surprisingly versatile, which is the main strength of the cooldown.
Too many times did I have moments where I can freely chuck it at a Caster or Healer, distribute it among myself and my co-tank or essentially have an upgraded Dark Mind when pairing it (same CD is nice).
It is not a great cooldown in solitude, but it is an excellent cooldown paired with literally anything else. I used to think it needs a bit more, which it still might be, but honestly it will be difficult to not break the skill.
If I may agree on one thing though, it is kind of flavourless other than being a chuckable mitigation, but this is very common for tanks nowadays with exception to their short CDs. -
11-25-2022, 09:48 PMRithy255Oblation mainly exists because of how TBN works right now as if you added mitigation to TBN it would make it harder to break which is counterproductive, oblation even looks like "enhanced TBN" from the animationQuote:
Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim
The Good about it is it's flexible and useful in certain situations, the issues it has is it is kinda weak and not needed in a lot of situations (you should still use it, but it's not really gonna be game changing.)
I guess I wish it did something like maybe have a small amount of sustain on it (something that current drk lacks) or something interesting, It's underwhelming for a late stage ability for me. -
11-26-2022, 09:09 AMForsakenRoe
OP, a lot of these changes suggested are just... A 15s duration Invuln on a 2min CD? That's potentially 1/8th of your gameplay with the invuln effect being in effect, 12.5% uptime, what? Shadowbringer 900 potency so it can feel even worse to not-crit, what?
Off the top of my head, I think they should introduce Oblation at like, way earlier levels (maybe 45 alongside Dark Mind) to address the 'DRK is squishy until TBN' issue, then at it's current level, trait upgrade it to have 2 charges. That seems like a change they could actually do -
11-26-2022, 11:01 AMArchwizardEven then, they could have directly upgraded it multiple ways without making Oblation OR increasing the difficulty toward getting Dark Arts. Off the top of my head:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rithy255
- Reducing the barrier potency of TBN to 20% but adding on a raw mitigation effect over it to compensate, which would continue even when the barrier is consumed.
- Extending the duration of TBN and causing a raw mitigation effect on its target for the remaining duration whenever the barrier is consumed early.
- Causing TBN to also grant a healing effect of some variety, like Bloodbath or restoring a fraction of damage absorbed.
- Causing Edge and Flood to gain Drain effects or Cure potency when used under Dark Arts.
- Just giving TBN a second charge like Sheltron, and letting you store two Dark Arts at once or spend Dark Arts on TBN.
At that point it seems more likely they would just rework Dark Mind, fusing the 10% raw mitigation onto it with a bonus to magic resist, a la Camouflage.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
The two share the same CD after all, Dark Mind is already decried for being niche, and it would save a button in the long run. Maybe trait an extra charge onto Dark Mind at the level Oblation is normally introduced. Whether it gains the ability to cast on allies at that point or earlier is up for debate.
Or, they could solve that issue by adding a downgrade to TBN at lower levels (return Shadowskin?), that upgrades into TBN at 70.
... Of course, they would need to address the MP economy of TBN if they wanted to make a downgrade to it without turning TBN itself into the downgrade. Can't have an MP-based mitigation without giving Dark Arts to compensate for the DPS cost, and as Rithy pointed out, any upgrade that makes it harder to get Dark Arts is counterproductive. -
11-26-2022, 12:46 PMLuizgazen
About merging TBN and Oblation, to me all it would take would be to increase TBN's duration to 10s and give the 10% mit during the shield only, that would more than compensate the added "difficulty" on breaking the shield without making the skill unbalanced... if anything it would make even easier to break the shield since you are adding a lot of extra time to be hit
-
11-26-2022, 02:50 PMForsakenRoeAs nice as that sounds for hotbar realestate, could you imagine the absolute fit WARs would pitch at the idea of DRK being able to throw more than 10% on an ally? I assume in this idea the magic resist effect would be toned down to 10%, so it'd be closer to Rampart strength, because the WAR rage would be insane if it was left at 10% + 20% magicresist. Then again, GNB's HOC is now 30% for the first 4 seconds (well, 15% + 15%) so maybe it'd be ok who knowsQuote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
Personally, yeh I'd move Oblation lower, trait it to have 2 charges later. If it's still kinda weak, I'd add a barrier effect to it that stacks with TBN, with TBN being prioritized to break first. Nothing big, maybe 500p healing worth of barrier, which is around 8500 hp in my trash gear, out of 88658 max HP. So maybe '10% of DRK's Max HP' is a better way to word it for the tooltip. Convert Dark Mind from 20% magic resist to 10% all, 10% magic, and make up the difference lost to multiplicative stacking with a barrier if needed. Sod it, go all in on barriers. Give DRK all the barriers. Add a job gauge element that shows how much barrier is left, and have all of the job's barriers it applies to itself feed into this communal pool. MP management is dead, long live Barrier management -
11-26-2022, 03:27 PMArchwizard10% Mitigation + additional 10% Magic resist was the idea, yes. The net loss of magic resist would be extremely minor (20% -> 19%), and the additional Physical and True damage resistance for the remaining duration (including the ability to use Dark Mind for more than "select attacks") would more than make up for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
-
11-29-2022, 12:22 PMHierro
changes taht would make DRK fun again:
set it back to stormblood, keep the plunge charges, keep the living dead changes.
done! -
11-29-2022, 01:07 PMVencio
It’ll be awesome if it inherited more vampiric-like style & HP draining over time.
I mean…the darkness, black, dark spells & all that.
That would make it very enticing! -
11-29-2022, 01:17 PMRithy255
I think I'll list what I wanna see with dark knight generally
1. A general rotational rework, I don't really like how the job just copies the core of Warrior and is very busy, I would like to see dark knight generally changed rotation wise. Honestly I'd be hoping for something a bit "complicated" for a tank
2. Give Dark knight a more "magic" aspect, it doesn't have to copy Paladin but giving Dark knight some animations or something, that look more magic it would suit DRK a lot better... I really don't feel like a "Dark knight" when playing the job... it just doesn't feel "right" to me what I'd expect from a Dark knight
3. Give Drk more "sustain" It should have hp drain mechs, in raids sustain isn't really super important compared to mitigation but it would make Dark knight feel better in dungeons.
4. TBN should reward dark knight for proper usage instead of punishing dark knight, a refund isn't good or rewarding. (Some sort of regen for breaking would be nice)
5. Oblation should feel a bit more impactful or be removed (if TBN was changed), if not I think this ability should do a bit more then it does as a "late level" mitigation it feels very underwhelming. -
12-01-2022, 12:53 AMArchwizard
Since Rithy laid all their hopes out, I'll take my own crack at the same.
Something that has always bugged me about Dark Knight is that it was never a conventional choice for a tank. Throughout the series it's been the epitome of the glass cannon, and was even a DPS in FF11. Obviously 14's devs are not beholden to 11's design philosophy in terms of choosing jobs -- just look at NIN actually being a DPS here rather than a fluke evasion tank -- but that role predated 11 by over a decade.
I have to keep thinking about why they chose to implement DRK as a tank back in Heavensward, and I keep coming back to two things about its historical precedent:
1) Dark Knights always used their health as a resource, and effectively became more powerful as they willingly allowed their health to get lower. Metaphorically speaking, "health as a resource" is the tanking role.
2) Dark Knights have often supplemented the above using either Blood equipment or Drain magic (such as Dread Spikes) in order to create a sustainable cycle of both supplemental health and damage output. This is rather meaningless to a DPS outside solo content, but once again, very meaningful to a tank.
And right now, the job accomplishes... neither.
I guess you can say Living Dead is a broad interpretation of the former point now, but before 6.1 I wouldn't even have qualified that as "growing more powerful" when they died since it was a death sentence for 7 years. Through a certain lens, "sacrificing TBN to burst your entire MP pool on Edge of Shadow" could qualify as sacrificing your survivability... if TBN wasn't presently being used to prefer MP overcap before burst.
Abyssal Drain is on a cooldown that severely limits its sustainability, having been relegated to a rather disappointing version of Equilibrium or Aurora that returns next to nothing on a single-target. Since the advent of Nascent Flash, in many respects, WAR has been and continues to be a better Dark Knight by the standards of older FF games than DRK... and just to really lay it on thick, at the same time NF was introduced, DRK's rotation was dumbed down to a knockoff of WAR; juggling the same buff timer mechanic, using the same resource gauge, cloning several of the same cooldowns including its immunity, and not even getting a branching combo out of the mix.
In interviews, it's been specified that 14's DRK is meant to be "the Magic Tank" -- hence its use of magical barriers and Dark Mind -- but if that was the goal, it seems like something from the Spellblade spectrum with the Runic ability would have been a more appropriate choice in the long run, such as the Rune Fencers from FF11.
Of course, by the time they made the choice to shift DRK over purely to a "magical" focus it was too late to rename it, but even so, the job's actual use of "magic" has largely been phased out in favor of flashy weapon strikes that feel neither impactful nor particularly helpful. Even when using spells in combat, both DRK and PLD suffer from the separation of Skill Speed and Spell Speed, so the insistent use of "magic" is arguably to its detriment, especially with how niche focused "magic resistance" has been. Combine that with the same double-weaving issues as GNB and the aforementioned WAR rotation... and it feels like DRK tries so hard to be different from all the other tanks that it fails to find its own footing at something it does both uniquely and successfully.
It just doesn't feel viscerally like a Dark Knight. And as someone who didn't pick up the job until Shadowbringers, I can't even say if it ever did. -
12-01-2022, 01:38 AMMikey_RUnfortunately, if you define DRK as draining HP to deal damage, then that really isn't going to work well when it is a tank, I won't go into details here, but it should be easy enough to at least understand why.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
This is why DRK has mainly used it's MP to cover a similar role, so, instead of reducing HP, you reduced MP. Going right back to HW, Darkside was a permanent buff to DRK, as long as you had MP. Back then, it would slowly drain your MP, so you had to use your tools to keep yourself healthy. This is also where things like Dark Arts and Dark Passenger helped to keep you engaged as they both required MP. Dark Arts was especially good as it did change properties of some moves, Carve and Spit losing the MP recovery, but it done more potency (and was the best potency gain for it), however, the best thing that was lost, in my opinion, was the interaction with the combos. DRK had 2 combo chains (not counting the enmity combo), Delirium (being comboed off of Syphon Strike and applying a INT down debuff) and Soul Eater. Dark Arts only affected Soul Eater of these 2 chains and it allowed it to do more damage , with the potency ratings going Soul Eater < Delirium < Dark Arts Soul Eater. This meant, with proper planning, you could increase your damage and it required some thought.
SB DRK was just a worse version, DA affected more things, MP came in much quicker, they lost the Delirium combo and that is why SB DRk was generally disliked over HW. There wasn't much thought put into the rotation as it was generally just spam Dark Arts just so that you didn't overcap your MP (where Darkside no longer drained your MP). Then ShB happened.
I'm sure, if DRK went back to a HW root, with more recent QoL updates, it would make it stand out as a more unique tank. You can even take the more recent action additions and see how they could fit them with the HW DRK. I don't really want to go into too much of my thought here, however, I hope that small insight into HW DRK helps you to understand how it was different and even then, I have only just given a slight intro to how it played. However, HP reduction still isn't the way to go. -
12-01-2022, 08:20 AMReinhardt_AzureheimI get you and understand the general sentiment why "it wont work".Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
Counterpoint: It CAN work, using the following characteristics...
1.) To combat HP spending additional is implemented (think in availability similar to Bloodwhetting)
2.) To combat overturtling, damage distribution will put emphasis on HP spenders or attacks comboing from those (ergo you will be weaker than PLD if you never spend)
3.) To combat overspending, require a minimum HP threshold before it gets disabled. More ideal spenders gated by additional means (MP, Blood, Darkside duration, cooldown)
It offers a lot of room for optimisation and furthermore lets healers drop excess heals they may have on the DRK as a raid dps gain.
HP spender tanks arent impossible, they are just difficult to design well, especially in a game where your community will vomit and cry over every possibility of "loss from using action at bad time". Yes I speak of TBN. -
12-01-2022, 08:55 AMMikey_RI only have question, how will you determine how much HP is spent for an action?Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim
If you make it a fixed value, does that then mean you get stronger and stronger as you get better gear through a raid tier or through an expansion's worth of gear? Bear in mind, this is additional resources for spenders so that you can use them more, as opposed to every other job who gain no such benefit. Would this entail SE needing to nerf the job or buff the rest through the expansion? If that is the case, If that is the case, how would this affect the players playing the job as they are levelling later in the expansion? You are now weaker relative to where you should be just because you need to balance around the top gear. This is one of the reasons why MP was changed to be a fixed 10K after all.
So, we can go onto the other option, percentage HP usage. This means, over the course of an expansion, your actions will cost more and more HP as your gear gets better. This would also necessitate that your HP regens also scale at a similar rate. However, how do you balance that out? If you give them too little healing, you cause healers to have to heal you more than other tanks, too much and you can essentially become self sufficient. However, there is still the case of when you regen that HP. Is it something that happens on all GCDs? Is it more of a burst heal at specific points? Both of those come with pros and cons. This is even before we have even considered content where the tank and healer aren't even in gear. If the healer is at the lowest ilevel and the tank the highest, the healer is going to have more problems keeping you alive due to weaker healing, reverse it, and you can end up doing more because your healer can heal you for alot more of your HP with the same spell.
Even then, this is before a discussion of using HP spenders at the wrong time (eg. before a tank buster) can impact a fight and how the healers have to give you special attention. I would say, with a very very high certainty, that a tank like this would not be played, or at least not bought into a hardcore raid setting, unless it was absolutely bonkers in DPS compared to the other tanks and that is something noone wants. -
12-01-2022, 04:21 PMForsakenRoeThe reason they didn't do HP spending DRK is indeed 'loss from using action at bad time'. Not 'loss of damage' though, 'loss of last HP and you die to the raidwide/TB'. It's the same reason we eventually had the HP sacrificing effect removed from Convert (the BLM thing that gives MP back for the funny Flare meme combo), and why Blood for Blood changed to Lance Charge and had it's 'you take more damage for a bit' effect removed. People will 100% spend their HP in a 'it gets me more damage' way, even if it means they die for it, and SE didn't want to deal with the backlash of it all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim
MP management was the compromise, a resource you spent and wanted to make sure you made the most of, without spending it all. In FFXIV terms, MP represents aether, and certain forms of aether are synonymous with 'life energy', so in a sense, it's kinda similar. The difference here though, is that you wouldn't have some tryhard getting toxic to the healers because they spent their HP for more damage, one second before White Hole checked if they were full HP, and petrified them. Running out of MP as DRK in the old days hurt nobody but the DRK, and even then, it was just a case of 'generate some MP with Syphon Strike, press Darkside, get back into the rhythm'. Not quite as disruptive as 'overspent HP, died, mobs are running rampant, TBs are hitting everyone but the tank, etc'.
HP spender tanks aren't impossible designwise. But when the design leaves the paper and reaches 'live version', the playerbase will quickly prove how impossible it really is. -
12-01-2022, 09:17 PMReinhardt_AzureheimHP spending would in fact be proportional to Max HP, which scales on a similar level as Strength, which will be your primary stat for heal boosting from HP recovery abilities. The spending values would also probably be different for various abilities and for simplicity, a minimum threshold before you can spend should be >=50% HP (if we want a safe guard).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
The MP = 10,000 change has been introduced as it fundamentally made no difference for non-Healer jobs with very minor exceptions such as Black Mage, as the MP costs got scaled with their current max MP (except Healers who had maxMP Piety available at the time). The main interaction between different MP pools came from Mana Shift, which granted different MP values depending on the Caster. All of this got neutered however and MP got simplified to 10,000, making MP cost balancing (and actually implementing) less stressful for the devs.
HP however has always been scaling as a survival threshold to ensure you obtain newer gear or equip the correct gear (pre-VIT-on-Accessories). To answer on the amount though, it would essentially depend on what damage numbers will be considered "expected" and what rotation are considered "expected play".
Based on the HP drain of such expectation, you take HP recovery of this +10-30% of leeway, depending on how the HP recovery is applied (burst vs over time). Warrior is currently a great job at displaying burst vs (semi-)over-time healing, so we can take inspirations. Otherwise, something like Bloodbath with lower gains but longer durations would also be possible.
So, within expected parameters the tank should be self-sufficient on his spending, with only minor gains to actual survival, making a Healer still essentially in charge of your HP pool for trinity puproses. Since this is essentially high risk/skill, damage numbers would need to be highly rewarding, however the scaling needs to be very delicate, otherwise we may see 2x DRK here because it does too much damage, as you said. I won't say it is impossible, but I admit it is difficult. In fact, sometimes tanks have been chosen for progression more on how their defensives interacted over damage a lot of times, with Abyssos being a recent example of the latter.
However, if we consider "what if we spend HP at a bad time", this is fundamentally no different from using your defensive cooldowns at a bad time. Though I suppose the difference is that more players will sooner hold cooldowns than not have them, since almost none of them provides damage gains (except Vengeance).
Correct, however Convert and Blood for Blood were DPS abilities. DPS are fundamentally not designed around withstanding excessive amounts of damage as part of their damage rotation, if they were they would basically be pseudo-tanks minus enmity. Making HP spending a tank thing and giving them the fitting tools to fuel it is not only safer to do around raidwide attacks, but is also generally more logical as they can use excess HP before healing hits them that they would get anyways, even if they only need a fraction of it (example Medica II).Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
MP management was indeed the compromise and generally the safer venue - however, they have truly mishandled MP interactivity by removing MP-Blood interaction (Stormblood: Delirium, Quietus, TBN, Blood Weapon/Price) and made it extremely bland in an attempt to make it more accessible. The irony is that more people prefering accesibility will still flock to Warrior. A dilemma to me, as it essentially cost me a ton of fun and interaction with my kit.
But as you say, letting such a design (HP spender-drainer Tank) loose on the playerbase would spell an initial wave of people clashing as they figure out what is acceptable and what is essentially being a liability to people. On the flipside, having this gap means there is a lot more room for team optimisation and using excess tools otherwise held, making more use of the tools of the party this way.
I however do not consider toxicity a factor, as we have some folks getting all antsy over like a SGE giving his WAR a shield and the WAR getting pissy over it. If they made every decision in this game purely to eliminate factors of toxicity occuring, we would be playing a very bland game.
Anyways for everyone reading this, I'm sorry for the massive wall of text. :sweat: -
12-02-2022, 12:14 AMArchwizardHowever, that's not actually how I defined it. You'll note I said "use of health as a resource" and "becoming more powerful as health gets lower", both of which can broadly fit the Dark Knight archetype without necessarily having to literalize "drain your HP to deal damage". Hell, damage doesn't even have to come into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
For instance, you could have DRK gain skills that increase in effect the lower their HP is when they use it, or based on the damage they receive in a given period -- self-healing along the lines of Essential Dignity or Macrocosmos for instance, or a burst of damage reduction that snapshots their missing HP, giving more mitigation the lower their HP is (like the Hellblade's Last Resort from the Bravely series).
Alternately, you could rework Living Dead to be a Full Immunity skill that drains a percentage of HP over time in lieu of the "all or nothing" Doom clock.
Since 14 emphasizes Barriers in DRK's kit, you could have them convert some percentage of HP into a barrier that raises their effective health, or add a cooldown that fills in all of their missing health with a barrier while giving them life leech until the barrier breaks. The possibilities are pretty much endless.
I previously wrote up a skill idea for DRK I called "Martyr", intended to be its sort of Passage of Arms. It would let the DRK channel a high potency barrier, but at the cost of transferring part of the damage taken by nearby allies to the DRK.
I played around with its MP consumption to ensure it would be best used as a group mitigation rather than just an extra strength TBN, but that's not really relevant to this topic; the point is that it uses the DRK's health pool as a resource for the whole raid.
And even if we do bring damage into it, you can also see in the PVP version of DRK that it plays with the "drain HP to deal damage" concept without necessarily needing to invoke it in a way that compromises the DRK's survival. Shadowbringer can be used at the cost of HP, but this cost is negated by Dark Arts, effectively doubling the survival value of TBN.
It actually wouldn't take that much effort to clone something like that into PVE, and would make a very effective way to remove TBN from MP (should the need ever arise in some rework).
Combine any number of ideas along these lines and you could create a tank whose entire kit is based on Risk vs Reward.
But right now the only RvR skill in DRK's kit is Living Dead. And speaking as a healer... a lot of people still misunderstand the "Risk" element of it. -
12-02-2022, 04:59 AMTouchandFeel
I think that one of the main factors against making HP a resource for DRK that seems to be getting overlooked is simply that it is not encapsulated solely within the control of the DRK themselves.
Damage buffs that players can place on others are very highly controlled, existing within the 2-minute raid buffs, and are that way for the reason of being predictable and more easily measured in terms of the expected output gains which is necessary for proper balancing between jobs and the tuning of content. We can of course debate if 2 minutes is too long of an interval of buff-based burst cycles and whether it should be shorter/longer or stuff like that, but the importance of such buffs being defined to exist within very controlled parameters of availability and frequency is undeniable.
By making HP a resource for DRK to fuel ability usage, you are essentially breaking that above tenet because HP is far more fluid and something other jobs, particularly healers, can at any time and constantly be pumping their resources and effort into, in function allowing healers to pretty much give or deny DRK a dps buff whenever they please. Now the DRK is no longer in full control of their own performance on a moment to moment basis and in order to maximize their individual output, has to rely on other players focusing on them and providing them a constant external source of a resource for them to use. That will just lead to a very frustrating situation. Frustrating for the DRK because they won't feel like they are in control of their own capabilities and game-play, frustrating for the healers because they will be expected to go above and beyond to be constantly feeding the DRK so that they can perform better and immensely frustrating for the developers because this would be incredibly difficult to balance around due to the drastically increased variability of DRK dps performance resulting from this forced interplay.
It's not too hard to come up with various ideas about how to make HP a resource on DRK and it's not too hard to come up with justifications for why your version is good or works, however the sheer level and amount of complications and issues that come with trying to implement this will always make it a hard sell. -
12-02-2022, 05:31 AMDaeriion_AeradiirThe PvP kit works because healing is intrinsically a limited resource in PvP, and 90% of the healing is controlled by the DRK itself, leading to the DRK having majority control of its own gameplay flow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
in PvE, such a kit would be ridiculously hard to balance, dps wise. Do you balance for the fact healers can theoretically vomit tons of heals into the DRK to continuously let them use higher power potency skills with no risk the entire time for greater overall damage than if the healer was spending those GCDs to dps, or do you balance around an expected number of uses of those skills per minute assuming healers aren't healing more than necessary? Because in the former, you make the DRK kit severely underpowered if your healer doesn't want to play personal healbot, and in the later, severely overpowered if your healers are willing to play healbot. Not to mention the arguments that will no doubt arise in DF/PF from DRKs demanding personal healbots in the care of the latter. This entire balancing methodology is precisely why the devs made old darkside prevent MP infusion from outside sources, since mana transfer skills/songs could be used to inadvertently give DRK more power than the devs wanted it to have. That way, with MP locked exclusively to the DRK's actions, the system became entirely self contained.
There's also major problems with any tank that wants to be low on HP for any reason, since it literally runs counter to the healer role's modus operandi. Making its mit be based on how low or high your HP is completely robs control of your own ability to use said mit in an effective manner, since it robs personal control from you based on what the healers do (In fact, this is precisely one of the reasons old living dead was reviled so much - you had zero control over it as a mitigation tool and were entirely at the healer's mercy). If there's a mechanic like solo Ahk Morn towers or taking Cauterize w/o invuln, or taking a double buster solo which requires incredibly high levels of mit to survive, having one or more of you defensive options fall into the range of 'if your HP wasn't low enough when you used them, you auto die to this mechanic because the mitigation on them is now too weak to survive the hit(s) even at full HP post heal' just because you got an infusion of cure 1 + tetragrammaton right before you used your mit button(s), then you just kneecap DRK's survivability and make its defensive kit wildly inconsistent.
Even beyond that, there's just the issue of how you'd balance the actual mitigation values contrasted to the other tanks. Since you either end up in a situation where DRK's mit is weaker than every other tanks 90% of the time and only equal if the DRK is at low HP to prevent its mitigation from being overpowered, resulting in a tank that is far more cumbersome to utilize in a group setting compared to just picking literally any other one, or you make their mits equal in 90% of situations to maintain parity with other tanks, but then make them OP when the DRK is at lower levels oh HP, resulting in DRK being wildly out of whack and a mess to balance since it would easily trivialize tougher mitigation checks or basically have infinite invulns with proper setup.
There's literally only one case in the DRK kit where lower HP could be a conditional flair, and that's its personal healing. Having soul eater & Abyssal Drain have modular lifesteal based on missing HP wouldn't break anything, so long as the potencies are capped off at reasonable levels.
It's why MP is the perfect substitute to keep the general flow of 'resource bar go up and down rapidly, but you can potentially put yourself in a bad situation by overspending' that the HP gimmick of DRKs in past games utilized on. It's a self contained system that the DRK possesses full control over, and doesn't run counter to both the tank & healer role's entire modus operandi.
TL : DR: The PVP kit works because of the environment its designed in. There's far too many additional factors in PvE for such a kit to work without having massive balancing issues, positive or negative. For Health scaling damage/mitigation to work in PvE, the differences between minimum & maximum %s/potencies/etc would have to be so small to maintain parity with other tanks in 95% of situations that you'd simply run into the issue of 'why even bother in the first place?' -
12-02-2022, 08:27 PMArchwizardI think you're misinterpreting the point I was trying to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir
I'm not saying "we need a 1:1 copy of the PVP Shadowbringer" because that would be ridiculous since, as you pointed out, PVP has an entirely different scope and context than PVE. A DRK dies in PVP and only he suffers; a DRK dies in PVE and your group just lost their tank. The PVP version of Shadowbringer is spammable as long as you have the resources, making it available significantly more often than you can use the accompanying TBN and allowing you to dump HP until you're at a critical level. Obviously, we can't afford something that high risk.
Rather, the point I was trying to make was focusing on the use of Dark Arts to subvert that cost, negating any such risk for a tank in PVE under normal circumstances. Presently, the existence of Dark Arts doesn't "reward" proper use of TBN, but rather refunds the cost TBN had in the first place in order to induce a "counterattack" narrative via Edge/Flood.
Were something like PVP Shadowbringer to be introduced in PVE, tuning knobs such as a cooldown and charges could be set in place to ensure that it's only used roughly as often as you can acquire Dark Arts, with the raw HP cost merely providing you an alternative to casting it when you don't get DA so that your mitigation and DPS won't negatively impact one another. Same flavor of Dark Arts we have now, but it actually rewards you rather than just refunding.
In an extreme (and however unlikely) case, you may even use such an HP cost as sort of a magic wand to charge up some of the other effects I previously listed, giving you a small measure of personal control over your HP as TouchandFeel noted we lack. I'm not trying to advocate this route specifically, I'm just noting the open possibility to make and connect such tools.
Overall though, the reason I brought it up at all was to highlight that DRK's history and flavor provide plenty of opportunities for creative tanking tools (especially with PLD intentionally being straightforward and WAR not having any thematic magic or gadgetry), which is part of what makes its current position so underwhelming.
God if I don't know it from DRKs screaming at me to stop healing them 'cuz they popped LD at the top of a pull with two HoTs, an external DR and a barrier on them.Quote:
There's also major problems with any tank that wants to be low on HP for any reason, since it literally runs counter to the healer role's modus operandi.
(Like, I don't know what you want me to do there, bud. I'm on SGE, if I sneeze too hard it heals you. Learn how to use your invuln.)
Of course, I'm also convinced the 6.1 LD buff was just a holdover for a future rework, since they did the same thing for skills like Acceleration or the entirety of MNK's kit last expansion before bigger reworks in EW. The literal layers of complication on it now (in lieu of just... removing the Doom timer) have that certain vibe, y'know?
And I also suggested that a Macrocosmos-esque effect that charges up as you take damage would fit too, rather than just snapshotting while you pray you hit the mit before Bene goes off.Quote:
Even beyond that, there's just the issue of how you'd balance the actual mitigation values contrasted to the other tanks. Since you either end up in a situation where DRK's mit is weaker than every other tanks 90% of the time and only equal if the DRK is at low HP to prevent its mitigation from being overpowered, resulting in a tank that is far more cumbersome to utilize in a group setting compared to just picking literally any other one, or you make their mits equal in 90% of situations to maintain parity with other tanks, but then make them OP when the DRK is at lower levels oh HP, resulting in DRK being wildly out of whack and a mess to balance since it would easily trivialize tougher mitigation checks or basically have infinite invulns with proper setup.
... And even that couldn't be any worse than Oblation.
The list I threw out wasn't comprehensive, nor end-all-be-all. At the least, it was my attempt to illustrate the versatility of the theme besides just "Dark Wave go brrrr"; at most, an effort to get creative juices flowing. -
12-03-2022, 10:10 AMMikey_RThat's the thing though, you don't want to reward the use of a defensive buff with more damage, otherwise the defensive will be used for offence and will feel bad if if absolutely had to save it to use it for an actual defensive purpose. You can just look to HW and, IIRC, SB PLD for an example. Sheltron/Bulwark were useful tools to get a Shield Swipe proc and were often used for the purpose. Sheltron even had MP regen attached to it in SB and, with how tight PLD's MP economy was then, you bet Sheltron was used to help restore MP so that you could get all 5 Holy Spirit casts in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
Rewarding defensive play with offence just does not work. -
12-03-2022, 05:49 PMArchwizardHave you met my friend, The Blackest Night? I think you two would hate each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
-
12-03-2022, 06:59 PMForsakenRoeTBN is damage neutral...? Like, yeh, the 'benefit' of a welltimed TBN is that you get the bonus of 'oh it didn't cost 500 potency', but many people have (quite rightly tbh) pointed out that this is not a bonus, this is a kick in the groin when you DON'T get the refund. Having damage gains attached to mit is as bad an idea as attaching damage to healing tools. Look at Assize or Earthly Star. We don't use em to heal, we use them for damage, and if healing happens to line up, that's just a bonus on top. Now look at Pneuma and Macrocosmos, they have the same potency as the filler spell they're replacing, so they're completely damage neutral. Unless you're in AOE, in which case they're a gain, but that's beside the point. Back to DRK we can see that in this regard, TBN's issue becomes clear. It's not the fact that you get a 'free Edge' when you use TBN, it's that there's a chance to 'lose an Edge' by MISusing the skill. That shouldn't be a thing. Just adding a side effect that says that you get the effect of Dark Arts when the TBN is broken or expires would fix the issue. You still 'lose out' on job effectiveness by mistiming TBN, but it's by having part of the barrier unused. It's not fun to suffer a 'punishment for mistiming the barrier' when you're progging, use TBN, and the boss autoattacks once and then starts casting a spell that interrupts it's autoattack cycle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
TBN doesn't 'reward use of defensive buff with more damage' unless you count 'you can move an extra Edge into raidbuffs'. It rewards use of defensive buff with 'you didn't get cucked for 500p' which is a much more apparent issue. -
12-03-2022, 08:07 PMArchwizardYes. And what I suggested wouldn't affect damage at all -- the only reward I'm suggesting is a cost reduction that effectively increases survivability, which is no different from people arguing for it to HoT when the barrier breaks.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
You're not locked out of using the DA spender if the barrier isn't broken in time, because you can still use it without DA and TBN doesn't eat the resources needed to cast it in the first place.
If you want me to get more specific with what I mean, here's an example to clarify:
* TBN no longer costs MP to activate, but it's on a 25 sec CD like other on-demands. A weaker version of TBN (Shadowskin?) is available at lower levels that has a lower potency barrier and doesn't give DA.
* Shadowbringer has a 30 sec CD and 2 charges, no MP cost but consumes 20% of HP when activated. A weaker version is available at the level TBN is introduced (Flood of Shadow?).
* DA reworked, now causes Shadowbringer/Flood to be cast without an HP cost, and up to two DA charges can be stored at once.
* Abyssal Drain replaces Flood of Darkness/Shadow as the AoE MP spender. Carve & Spit is upgraded to a cone attack with damage falloff on additional targets, and no longer shares a CD with Abyssal Drain.
* Edge of Darkness/Shadow now restores HP whenever it deals damage.
MP is used for draining attacks to heal you just like PLD's spells (which also helps recover from any Shadowbringer overspending), DA remains damage neutral because it's not on an MP cost or refund. You can choose to play conservatively, only using Shadowbringer as often as you have DA, or take calculated risks using the extra charge during burst (which you can quickly recover from with your MP spenders), and how well you thread that needle could become a point of skill for the job at high-end play.
And disclaimer, I want to make explicit here that I'm only defining this example to clarify what I mean, not as advocacy for a specific path the devs could or should take. I'm illustrating just one of many possibilities. -
12-03-2022, 08:31 PMMikey_RLet's just cut to the relevant bits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
You have made TBN an offensive action now. By giving you a free Shadowbringer you save your own HP but also the healing from healers and all you have to do is make sure you TBN every 30 seconds. What, you want to save it for the tank buster? But, if I delay it, I lose out on a free Shadowbringer. I want to pump out as much DPS as I can, without hindering everyone else. I don't want the healer to stop DPSing just so that they can help to heal that 20% HP I lost when I can get it for free. Even if I use Edge to mitigate the healing (depending on how many you need to heal yourself by 20%, let's assume 1), then technically, the Shadowbringer is not free, it has cost me 3000MP, maybe more if it requires more casts, and if I cannot supplement that healing requirement, it then falls onto the healer, so now you have punished them instead.
Whilst this might work thematically, please please think about how it would work in a fight. If I were to do this, what are the consequences of these actions. Is this choice going to negatively affect someone else.
Also, point to a healer that would like to see a tank's HP yoyo around as they use their kit. -
12-03-2022, 08:44 PMArchwizardSo what makes TBN an offensive action here is that you're using it... to save your HP. Seems legit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
And TBN already does every time you use it.Quote:
Even if I use Edge to mitigate the healing (depending on how many you need to heal yourself by 20%, let's assume 1), then technically, the Shadowbringer is not free, it has cost me 3000MP
You literally are trying to have it both ways, each time you've spoken on this you've taken shots so broad they hit the existing TBN in the crossfire.
And, I cannot stress enough, I'm not saying "It'll be fine if they do exactly this." It's just a demonstration. I'm not gonna argue the specifics on a made-up example.
That's part and parcel with playing alongside any tank besides Paladin, at least since 6.1.Quote:
Also, point to a healer that would like to see a tank's HP yoyo around as they use their kit.
Warriors have lighter mitigation than other tanks but make up for it with self-healing. When a WAR takes big hits, we just shrug and say "Oh, he'll be fine." They're also... kind of the favorite tank right now.
When Gunbreaker uses their invuln, after the momentary heart attack, we shrug and throw a lazy HoT on them.
When Dark Knights want to use their invuln now, they pretty much stop using any mitigations and sink like a stone anyway. Sucks, but we're getting used to that.
So if you told me that DRK was able to self-heal from that occasional 20% hit due to supplemental changes to its kit, on top of it having above-average mitigation, and that I'd only have to panic if they did something incredibly dumb, I'd shrug like I would with WAR.
Is it a bit of a pitfall set for inexperienced players? Maybe, but only as much as being able to hardcast 5 second-long spells on RDM, or not being locked out of opposite element spells on BLM, or... half of the other jobs available. Knowing how to manage your own resources is part of mastering each job. -
12-03-2022, 09:58 PMMikey_RTechnically, TBN is used offensively now, as long as you can get the shield to break just before the raid buff window. The same would apply here, however, you have the extra step of messing with your HP...for the same result, or even worse if you have to get a healer involved. Plus, it is more damage because 2 charges instead of just 1. Why have this weird HP thing if, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
Yes, and it gets refunded when used well. In your case, if it is used well, you get a free Shadowbringer, you will use Edge anyway so that you don't overcap your MP and you are left in the same spot. It is if it isn't used well, currently, you are down 3000 MP, in your case, you have the weird middle ground with HP and still end up with 3000 MP loss at the end. Why is there this..weird thing with HP in the middle. What really is the point except for 'thematics'. It has already been pointed out you can play as much as you want with MP and noone cares, but there really is no point in having an arbitrary middle step.Quote:
And TBN already does every time you use it.
You literally are trying to have it both ways, each time you've spoken on this you've taken shots so broad they hit the existing TBN in the crossfire.
However, these things DO need to be discussed if the potential for a HP drain tank to even have a chance of being implemented. You need to look at the pros and cons, you need to see what works, you need to think, is this maybe too complicated or are there too many steps? This thread alone has already demonstrated potential issues and unless an idea can take these issues and present an idea that addresses these issues and can make for a balanced job, then I'm sure many would love to hear it. However, tacking HP drain to a job just for S&Gs is not a valid reason for it to be in place.Quote:
And, I cannot stress enough, I'm not saying "It'll be fine if they do exactly this." It's just a demonstration. I'm not gonna argue the specifics on a made-up example.
In those cases, they are planned. The healer knows what is about to happen so they expect and can plan. But if a DRK's HP is yo-yoing throughout the whole fight, that is when the issues come in. Are they going to survive this raidwide, is that barrier strong enough, or do they need some extra HP.Quote:
That's part and parcel with playing alongside any tank besides Paladin, at least since 6.1.
Warriors have lighter mitigation than other tanks but make up for it with self-healing. When a WAR takes big hits, we just shrug and say "Oh, he'll be fine." They're also... kind of the favorite tank right now.
When Gunbreaker uses their invuln, after the momentary heart attack, we shrug and throw a lazy HoT on them.
When Dark Knights want to use their invuln now, they pretty much stop using any mitigations and sink like a stone anyway. Sucks, but we're getting used to that.
The thing is, in a raid setting, WAR's HP is helpful, but it won't sustain him. There are still so many problems inherent with HP drain that it just is not going to come about. Even if you set a threshold that you cannot use HP spenders below this amount of HP, what if you happen to drop below it just before you were about to use it. Well, you can heal yourself up and then use it, however, you are now down HP compared to if you had the HP, and whose fault would that be? Of course, it is the healer for not keeping you above this threshold. Unless you want to make DRK HP recovery so high that it shouldn't be an issue, at which point why even need a healer. It would be so broken it would make WAR look like a baby.Quote:
So if you told me that DRK was able to self-heal from that occasional 20% hit due to supplemental changes to its kit, on top of it having above-average mitigation, and that I'd only have to panic if they did something incredibly dumb, I'd shrug like I would with WAR.
It works in single player games because you have control over everything, it will not work in multiplayer because you cannot control everything. That is the core issue and unless that is sorted out, it will not work.