Square, please balance Deep Dungeon 6.3 for 70-90, not just 81+!

So I was a little bummed out when I saw the new Eureka Orthos entry requirements this morning. I don't really mind needing to finish Endwalker, but the fact we missed SHB and the dungeon still starts at 81 is a little disappointing.

I know a number of friends who prefer to just grind their hearts out in Deep Dungeon on alts, even some who haven't even been leveling alt jobs without Deep Dungeon available yet. While I understand skipping SHB due to other content, I still feel like Eureka should at least scale for that missed gap, so people can level there entirely if they really wish to.

There's still at least 2 months before 6.3 comes out, so I hope there's enough time to be able to scale the content accordingly by then. It doesn't really need to have more floors than whatever the plan is, just scaling the exp for a larger span is all that's necessary.

Please take this into consideration before patch release!

You do know that the alternative to a Deep Dungeon in Shadowbringers is Bozja, yes? If they can unlock this and other forms of content, then they can unlock Bozja as well. There's zero need to do this for 70-80; we already have that, and it's arguably just as easy since all you do is fight FATEs. FATEs which give as much exp as a Deep Dungeon would. This is by design: Bozja is the place you go to to mass-level jobs at that tier.

...Sure, and you could also do map FATEs, Trust leveling, Roulettes, and Beast Tribes for xp from 70+ too. I know Bozja exists, that doesn't mean it's Deep Dungeon, so for people who say "I want to level this alt entirely through Deep Dungeon" it means just as little as "Just do roulettes".

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Originally Posted by AvalonBright

...Sure, and you could also do map FATEs, Trust leveling, Roulettes, and Beast Tribes for xp from 70+ too. I know Bozja exists, that doesn't mean it's Deep Dungeon, so for people who say "I want to level this alt entirely through Deep Dungeon" it means just as little as "Just do roulettes".

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I mean, they can. But it's not the same. You want a quick place to get EXP, normal overworld content isn't going to give you half as much EXP as Bozja does.

Bozja's tuned to be the equivalent of a Deep Dive.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

You do know that the alternative to a Deep Dungeon in Shadowbringers is Bozja, yes? If they can unlock this and other forms of content, then they can unlock Bozja as well. There's zero need to do this for 70-80; we already have that, and it's arguably just as easy since all you do is fight FATEs. FATEs which give as much exp as a Deep Dungeon would. This is by design: Bozja is the place you go to to mass-level jobs at that tier.

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You could as easily say then that there was no point in one among Palace of the Dead and Diadem or Heaven on High or Eureka. But, there clearly was, seeing as they're completely different forms of content.

What harm would there be in having Deep Dungeon options all the way to 90, instead of randomly skipping the 70-80 span?

I'd rather just allow experience to be gathered from Exploratory Missions the whole way 50-90 and from DD from 1-90, without forcing alternation between the two for those who prefer one type of side-content over the other. If the point to those new content forms either were solely experience acceleration, there'd have been no point in creating any side-content in the first place; you'd just accelerate experience gains from all but MSQ.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You could as easily say then that there was no point in one among Palace of the Dead and Diadem or Heaven on High or Eureka.

What harm would there be in having Deep Dungeon options all the way to 90, instead of randomly skipping the 70-80 span?

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Yes, there was no point. Because guess what: POTD and HOH were places to get Experience. You cannot level up in Eureka nor in Diadem. Well... you can in Diadem, but not the fighting classes.

Also, "what harm"? idk, maybe keeping old content alive, for one? Rather than usurping it with a deep dive when Bozja was designed specifically to be a replacement? You're not skipping ANYTHING. Why are you so adamant we're skipping?? Because it's not a randomly-generated dungeon? We're skipping a form of content, but not the purpose itself. You want to level up, you go there, there's no SKIPPING anywhere.

Have you guys even done these contents at all to know what you're comparing them to?
Because no person is so daft as to compare Eureka to POTD. But Bozja you can. Why? Because it was designed that way, it was made to be the replacement of a Deep Dungeon.

This conversation has taken a turn for the moronic.

You guys want to replace content that already does exactly what you want with something else at higher levels? Be my guest. You're getting no sympathy for me.

It's a no.

And before anyone says "THAT'S MY OPINION :UUU" like a third-rate Karen...
https://i.redd.it/sh68ygz0pdz91.jpg

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

You're not skipping ANYTHING. Why are you so adamant we're skipping?? Because it's not a randomly-generated dungeon? We're skipping a form of content, but not the purpose itself.

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By that logic, if someone does Savage for the gear, they'd lose nothing if there was no Savage next expansion, replacing it instead with BiS coming from casual content.

Just because you do Content X solely for Reward A does not mean that's true for everyone else.

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Because it was designed that way, it was made to be the replacement of a Deep Dungeon.

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It wasn't made "as a replacement for Deep Dungeon." The Deep Dungeon simply wasn't also included, unlike the previous two expansions, because "Sorry, guys, but we don't have development time for both."

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You guys want to replace content that already does exactly what you want

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If experience grind were the sole thing people wanted from deep dungeons, this thread probably wouldn't exist. For all you know, one's reasoning could be "Bozja is depressingly fugly and I'd prefer any other way to level, but am bored of the 70-80 dungeons and FATEs."

Nor would an alternative remove existing content.

No, because then you'll seriously devalue the use of Bozja besides doing Shb relics and the questline. I like to keep old content relevant with SOME exclusivity. We havent had a proper 80-90 leveling method sides, roulette and this will be that answer. Come next expansion they'll do the same and so on and so forth.

Unless it's being placed in a zone a lv 70 can reach or someone is wanting to use it to level an alt job there wouldn't be a reason to bump it that low. And just because Bozja might be fugly doesn't mean some PotD at least can look just as fugly.

This topic was settled with the second post, no further discussion is needed

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Originally Posted by FireMage

This topic was settled with the second post, no further discussion is needed

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Yes, because clearly the only reason anyone ever runs any content is purely for the exp gain.

That was absolutely the most ridiculous argument, made worse by how long it was dragged out.

The request isn't "we want more exp." The request is "we want more Deep Dungeon access." Returning with "you can get that exp from Bozja" does nothing to address the topic.

I mean the whole point of this thread is moot anyways, it’s not like it’s some arbitrary number they can just go in and change in 5 minutes.

This new deep dungeon is balanced around jobs starting at 81, to drop that back down to 70 would likely be months of reprogramming that would throw them off their schedule.

But to finalize a point Bozja was set up and created to fill the gap that would be left by a deep dungeon. They felt much like with Hildibrand they needed a break from deep dungeons and wanted to do something different.

They even said they did not expect the amount of feedback from people who missed deep dungeons.

So it’s going to be the same as heaven on high, from 81-90 and that’s that.. nothing else really to it 71-80 wasnt forgotten it was a creative decision by the dev team to roll it into bozja.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Yes, because clearly the only reason anyone ever runs any content is purely for the exp gain.

That was absolutely the most ridiculous argument, made worse by how long it was dragged out.

The request isn't "we want more exp." The request is "we want more Deep Dungeon access." Returning with "you can get that exp from Bozja" does nothing to address the topic.

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if you're not doing it for XP, then just do any of the other deep dungeons? or do it once you reach 81? the whole point of this thread was that they want a way to level completely 1-90 with JUST deep dungeons

Starting on lower levels in Deep Dungeon is one of its worst aspects. Allowing to queue in is fine I guess but it should always start from maximum instead of having several floors of pointless leveling up within.

I think starting at 81 makes sense... because the game is expected to be around for a bit, which means higher levels in theory, and since Bozja covers the 70 range, then 81 and up will cover future level ranges with content of increased difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

I mean, they can. But it's not the same. You want a quick place to get EXP, normal overworld content isn't going to give you half as much EXP as Bozja does.

Bozja's tuned to be the equivalent of a Deep Dive.

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I think what OP is asking for is more options, and i see no downside with having that.
Deep dungeons always scale you to its level anyway, whats the harm in letting people use it to level at lower levels?
as long as you have a job stone (should be a requirement for anything past 30 tbh) there's no reason not to. People would still do bozja for relics and gil etc, and leveling if they prefer bozja.

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

I think what OP is asking for is more options, and i see no downside with having that.
Deep dungeons always scale you to its level anyway, whats the harm in letting people use it to level at lower levels?
as long as you have a job stone (should be a requirement for anything past 30 tbh) there's no reason not to. People would still do bozja for relics and gil etc, and leveling if they prefer bozja.

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Again to give some value to older dungeons for leveling. Otherwise why would you ever want to run PoTD or HnH if Eureka Orthos allows you to go from lv.1-90? Youre effectively killing dead content for the sake of convenience...well more than it already is I suppose. Its bad design. Choice is always good but shouldnt be at the cost of making content obsolete imo.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

You do know that the alternative to a Deep Dungeon in Shadowbringers is Bozja, yes? If they can unlock this and other forms of content, then they can unlock Bozja as well. There's zero need to do this for 70-80; we already have that, and it's arguably just as easy since all you do is fight FATEs. FATEs which give as much exp as a Deep Dungeon would. This is by design: Bozja is the place you go to to mass-level jobs at that tier.

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If people look back at Eureka, one can see this is the case. Eureka didn't level jobs. When Bozja was introduced and no deep dungeon was made for ShB, it properly took the place of the alternative leveling space. They then made it so one could get to 90, so it could remain relevant.

I've tried leveling in DD and I was never impressed by it. Maybe the good xp is down deeper, but I hadn't been able to get there at the time.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Again to give some value to older dungeons for leveling. Otherwise why would you ever want to run PoTD or HnH if Eureka Orthos allows you to go from lv.1-90?

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But the request was for it to go from where HoH leaves off, not to go from 1-90...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But the request was for it to go from where HoH leaves off, not to go from 1-90...

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This is what Bozja is there for if you desire for getting those levels.

Basically it goes from 1-50 (PoTD) 50-60 (Hellsward) 60-70 (HnH) 70-80 (Bozja) and now 80-90 (Eureka Orthos)

Theres no reason for making the EW Deep Dungeon to start at lv.71 especially for content released for Endwalkers cycle. Nobody is gonna like starting this new content with even less of their acquired toolkit than what they started with in Endwalker.

Again we have Bozja for those seeking to get those levels and it works perfectly fine imo.

Are we seriously still on this ridiculous drivel? Do people not understand the concept of "WE HAVE WHAT YOU'RE ASKING FOR"

What, do you really just want another Deep Dungeon at those levels? Sorry, you missed your shot. You ain't getting one. And you didn't get one before because of a myriad of reasons, among of which was Covid restrictions.

You have what you're asking for, and that's an easy way to level up.

Don't like it? Well tough bloody shit, start dealing with it. You have alternatives. Don't want to deal with the alternatives, well then make your own game. There's plenty of other far more valid complaints where we don't have any alternative whatsoever, yet people are honestly making a big deal out of something that's so simple.

Start appreciating the game you have instead of acting entitled. What's next, you're gonna go on Riot and ask to jump Elo and Rank through ARAM instead of doing Summoner's Rift?

What an incredibly and bizarrely hostile thread.

Some of ya'll need to get help.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

What an incredibly and bizarrely hostile thread.

Some of ya'll need to get help.

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Some of y'all need to learn to take a No for an answer.

I've seen people move the goalpost in this thread. Is it an EXP issue or is it just to have a Deep Dungeon? Make up your minds.
I've seen people ask why not have a deep dungeon and asking what the harm is. Were this about half the threads I'm invested in, the first answer anyone gives is "Dev time and resources". Done. And I already mentioned that this is going to kill another piece of content just to make this content thrive.
And then there's the disconnect between lv 70 people and lv 80 people, as some will prefer one thing over another.
But the worst for me is people ignoring the fact that the alternative already exists, they just don't want to go through it. And I'm sorry, but at that point people are just being obtuse, because there's no real reason to downgrade a piece of content just because the previous expansion didn't have it.

The answer is just a hard "no". If it won't come from us, it definitely will come from Yoshida.

It's probably same reason they're so hesitant to change old Eureka to work like Bozja with level sync and EXP gains - in fear that it will trample on HoH's grounds, as Expeditions are a thousand times more fun than Deep Dungeons, while also allowing you to work on relics at same time as you do them, so if they do that, HoH will just die, other than for weapon farmers.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

This is what Bozja is there for if you desire for getting those levels.

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Bozja is there for my wanting to level via DD because it gives experience?

If content type is irrelevant, then what purpose does Bozja ultimately serve post-relic? We already have roulettes, dungeon spam, and FATEs.

Just as there's no reason for Diadem and Eureka to be non-options for leveling and therefore alternatingly exclude Exploratory Missions from leveling options over 50-70, there's no reason to specifically exclude DD from leveling options over 70-80.

Choice is not a bad thing. Dungeons and roulettes didn't kill Bozja leveling. Why would having both options across 50-90 leveling suddenly do so?

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Are we seriously still on this ridiculous drivel? Do people not understand the concept of "WE HAVE WHAT YOU'RE ASKING FOR"

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Do you still not understand that if/when someone is looking for meat and you point them to the cereal aisle because "We don't sell meat between 3 and 4 pm, but food is all just calories anyways" that they're not the one failing to understand something obvious?

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Some of y'all need to learn to take a No for an answer.

I've seen people move the goalpost in this thread. Is it an EXP issue or is it just to have a Deep Dungeon? Make up your minds.
I've seen people ask why not have a deep dungeon and asking what the harm is. Were this about half the threads I'm invested in, the first answer anyone gives is "Dev time and resources". Done. And I already mentioned that this is going to kill another piece of content just to make this content thrive.
And then there's the disconnect between lv 70 people and lv 80 people, as some will prefer one thing over another.
But the worst for me is people ignoring the fact that the alternative already exists, they just don't want to go through it. And I'm sorry, but at that point people are just being obtuse, because there's no real reason to downgrade a piece of content just because the previous expansion didn't have it.

The answer is just a hard "no". If it won't come from us, it definitely will come from Yoshida.

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People just want to be bitter and mad about something. They probably don't believe covid was a thing and instead believe SE was just lazy during ShB. :p

It's funny and sad because we know this isn't going to happen.

Technically, all deep dungeon content will eventually be killed after Duty Support is out since people usually do Deep Dungeon runs for faster DPS queues to get EXP.
I've noticed less and less people were doing PoTD ever since ARR had story mode. I will expect the same to happen to HoH once SE decides to implement Duty Support for Stormblood.
And by that time, new players will definitely be a lot more anti-social since their first interaction with other players in dungeons start much later. I wouldn't be surprised if it backfires on the community in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Bozja is there for my wanting to level via DD because it gives experience?

If content type is irrelevant, then what purpose does Bozja ultimately serve post-relic? We already have roulettes, dungeon spam, and FATEs.

Just as there's no reason for Diadem and Eureka to be non-options for leveling and therefore alternatingly exclude Exploratory Missions from leveling options over 50-70, there's no reason to specifically exclude DD from leveling options over 70-80.

Choice is not a bad thing. Dungeons and roulettes didn't kill Bozja leveling. Why would having both options across 50-90 leveling suddenly do so?


Do you still not understand that if/when someone is looking for meat and you point them to the cereal aisle because "We don't sell meat between 3 and 4 pm, but food is all just calories anyways" that they're not the one failing to understand something obvious?

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You keep ignoring how Im saying that Bozja is currently being used for leveling alt jobs atm, even at 80-90. We basically have what you're already asking, for those levels. You just dont like Bozja and with that I cant seriously help you.

With the EW DD, it'll nicely spread out the groups for 80-90 only, and you even said it yourself, if you dont enjoy Bozja then there's the roulettes alternative. And again my point still stands that for an EW DD, people will be expecting to run that content based on EW levels not Shadowbringers levels.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Technically, all deep dungeon content will eventually be killed after Duty Support is out since people usually do Deep Dungeon runs for faster DPS queues to get EXP.
I've noticed less and less people were doing PoTD ever since ARR had story mode. I will expect the same to happen to HoH once SE decides to implement Duty Support for Stormblood.
And by that time, new players will definitely be a lot more anti-social since their first interaction with other players in dungeons start much later. I wouldn't be surprised if it backfires on the community in the long run.

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I agree with the first part, but I don't see any kind of decline happening socially. Players still have to interact for trials, raids and more so it won't be that long before they see people and, if they've been paying attention to the clearer and more consistent path, mechs should be less of a problem. I don't believe things can get much worse with people being as they are.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Technically, all deep dungeon content will eventually be killed after Duty Support is out since people usually do Deep Dungeon runs for faster DPS queues to get EXP.
I've noticed less and less people were doing PoTD ever since ARR had story mode. I will expect the same to happen to HoH once SE decides to implement Duty Support for Stormblood.
And by that time, new players will definitely be a lot more anti-social since their first interaction with other players in dungeons start much later. I wouldn't be surprised if it backfires on the community in the long run.

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Yeah but that plagues every bit of content tbh, not just POTD :x The real issue with Deep Dungeons when paired with that natural drop-off is that you kinda need other people around unless you want to do it solo, which limits your options.

If Bozja already covers 80-90, why are they bothering with a new Deep Dungeon in the first place?

Could it be... because Bozja is not Deep Dungeon content..?

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

If Bozja already covers 80-90, why are they bothering with a new Deep Dungeon in the first place?

Could it be... because Bozja is not Deep Dungeon content..?

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Or maybe because Bozja just gives so much exp that for DPS jobs it's faster to do that than wait in dungeon queues...

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

If Bozja already covers 80-90, why are they bothering with a new Deep Dungeon in the first place?

Could it be... because Bozja is not Deep Dungeon content..?

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It couldn't possibly be because of feedback from the players having missed out on Deep Dungeon last expansion and wanting to see more. :rolleyes: No, it has to be something else. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

It couldn't possibly be because of feedback from the players having missed out on Deep Dungeon last expansion and wanting to see more. :rolleyes: No, it has to be something else. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Yeah. We're getting DD this round because people liked Deep Dungeon content and asked for it.
It's not because Bozja's not DD or anything, and the more we feed this obtuse view of their purpose the less brain cells remain alive.
It's because people asked for DD to be added. So, this expansion, rather than getting Explorations, we're getting V&C dungeons. And then we're getting a third DD as requested.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

You keep ignoring how Im saying that Bozja is currently being used for leveling alt jobs atm, even at 80-90. We basically have what you're already asking, for those levels. You just dont like Bozja and with that I cant seriously help you.

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I'm not ignoring it. Your point is just entirely irrelevant to the request at hand, which is for a specific content type, not just a means of exp grind for a given level span.

If the only reason to ever have DD was eclipsed by any other form of exp grind or acceleration, its purpose would have been met just by reducing exp requirements or increasing the exp rates on the existing means of exp grinding, dungeon spam and FATE spam. But it clearly wasn't.

Even if each gave experience at identical efficiencies, DDs would not be equivalent to EMs, nor V&C dungeons, nor FATEs.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'm not ignoring it. Your point is just entirely irrelevant to the request at hand, which is for a specific content type, not just a means of exp grind for a given level span.

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OP's post was literally about the experience being available for lower level characters. You are the one who moved the goalpost past that.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Some of y'all need to learn to take a No for an answer.

I've seen people move the goalpost in this thread. Is it an EXP issue or is it just to have a Deep Dungeon? Make up your minds.
I've seen people ask why not have a deep dungeon and asking what the harm is. Were this about half the threads I'm invested in, the first answer anyone gives is "Dev time and resources". Done. And I already mentioned that this is going to kill another piece of content just to make this content thrive.
And then there's the disconnect between lv 70 people and lv 80 people, as some will prefer one thing over another.
But the worst for me is people ignoring the fact that the alternative already exists, they just don't want to go through it. And I'm sorry, but at that point people are just being obtuse, because there's no real reason to downgrade a piece of content just because the previous expansion didn't have it.

The answer is just a hard "no". If it won't come from us, it definitely will come from Yoshida.

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I don't have a horse in this race.

I just think it's painfully embarrassing how heated such a mundane thread is getting.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'm not ignoring it. Your point is just entirely irrelevant to the request at hand, which is for a specific content type, not just a means of exp grind for a given level span.

If the only reason to ever have DD was eclipsed by any other form of exp grind or acceleration, its purpose would have been met just by reducing exp requirements or increasing the exp rates on the existing means of exp grinding, dungeon spam and FATE spam. But it clearly wasn't.

Even if each gave experience at identical efficiencies, DDs would not be equivalent to EMs, nor V&C dungeons, nor FATEs.

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hmmm... about that bold part...

(V&C doesn't give xp yet)

DD is mainly there for the content variety. I believe the xp is secondary. When they look to make new ones, they're looking to stay consistent with HoH and just do the 10 levels. There's a gap, but it really doesn't need to be filled. Let's also think about running the actual DD. I don't think anyone wants to progress through 20 levels of skills. What you're asking for just doesn't make any kind of practical sense.

I'm ignoring Little Imp's bait for a sec and answer Shurri's little deranged moment just ahead.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The OP's title alone was that. The actual post had more context, including asking why Eureka was left out to dry (e.g., why players couldn't just level without gaps through just Exploratory Missions if they so pleased).

It essentially comes down to, "Hey, would there be time enough through adjustments to HoH's ceiling or Othas's floor to allow one to level just through DD if they wanted? If so, I'd really like that. (Aside, might the same be done for Exploratory Missions)?"

Your responses since:

Like... why? I get that you think Bozja would be risk at want to protect a favored content form here --though you've yet to point out how 4-man content that tends to be much less exp-efficient than it would somehow starve it of players, especially if you're right in that the two are identical content forms and only played for job-leveling... despite your preferring one over the other for reasons other than exp generation-- but how is that level of vitriol remotely necessary?

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First. Why do I have to point out ANYTHING about 4-man content?

THE PURVIEW OF THIS THREAD IS ABOUT DEEP DUNGEONS AS A FORM TO QUICKLY LEVEL A JOB.

The entirety of my point was that despite the lack of a DD in SHB, we got the equivalent of such a content in Bozja.
The vitriol comes from me having to reiterate this about half a dozen times, other people coming into this thread and explain it to you half a dozen times, and you still not conceding jack all!

Talking to you truly feels like talking to a wall. A wall that moves the goalposts and adds bullshit details where they're not needed.

At no point did I mention 4-man content as a viable alternative to Deep Dungeons. Just that OP was looking for Deep Dungeons in the Shadowbringers tier, which doesn't exist, because they wanted a fast way to level up at that tier, which DOES exist. Hence why Yoshida likely won't scale down this incoming Deep Dungeon. Because what you're asking for is already there!

It's not "just" FATE farming. You do FATEs, yes, but are you seriously going to compare EXP yield from normal FATE farms vs what you get from Bozja?

And the fact that I wasn't the only one saying this, and the fact you still haven't grasped it, is what gets me irritated.

Because I'm NOT going to justify doing 4-mans, since that was never put into question! Not is it considered a viable option for DPS to run!

Do you understand now? Or are you truly so blind as to be on the fifth page of this and still not grasping it?

Then you wonder why I'm so upset at a "mundane thread" when the answer was given to you off the bat yet PEOPLE ARGUE WITH FACTS WITH TROLL LOGIC. Like, what the fuck! WHERE did 4 mans even get here???

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Let's also think about running the actual DD. I don't think anyone wants to progress through 20 levels of skills. What you're asking for just doesn't make any kind of practical sense.

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POTD does that. And it's easily the most forgettable part of POTD.