Thoughts on restricting ress more?

I’ve been thinking and wanted to get some opinions. I feel ress is too omnipresent and to big of a crutch in most content, and it has negative consequences across the board.

1) In easy content, resses means you basically can’t fail with a few notable exceptions that can wipe the entire party at once. As long as a resser survives nobody has to actually do the mechanics properly. Tanks don’t really die in this content.

As an example I’ve gotten Eden Titan three times now in my raid roulette, and still don’t know how most of his mechanics work. No one says it explains a thing. People die left and right, ress after ress after ress, and you kill it. The only reason SE got away with putting that fight into what is essentially LFR, is because you can graveyard Zerg it.

2) In harder content, the prevalence of resses has necessitated the addition of the dreaded damage down. Square has crafted some beautiful fights that become frustratingly precise because hey! You can still kill the boss. The slightest bit of lag or being a pixel or two off gets you tagged with the failure make for 30 seconds. The only way to do well numbers wise is to exhibit absolute perfection. This also allows for sloppy play from healers because they can always ress you.

Your thoughts?

Normally I'd say yes cause that's what made a lot of WoW bosses hard ( At least during my time of WotLK ) was once someone was down...they were down unless someone had a Battle Rez in which the cost to using those were generally heavy.

However since there are people who could be doing everything correctly on their end but get nailed cause their internet sucks...they made that portion easier. Well honestly everything is easy unless doing Savage content since this game is mostly a single player JRPG first with some MMO elements drizzled on top.

I can tell you that in Heavensward, the only people who could resurrect in my parties were the healers. If the healers died, it was over. This made something like Clemency more useful on Paladin, because if you could save the healer, you had a chance of saving the run. Of course, there were summoners, but I didn't see these too often.

But since Stormblood came out, we had red mages everywhere. It was an extremely easy job to play and therefore one of the most popular DPS even after the expansion was over. You would usually have at least 1 red mage or more in any matched duty and even in high-end content in party finder. Being able to resurrect endlessly made content a lot easier and was a bit of a nerf really.

But I don't really mind it and it's not the only reason why content became a little easier. They didn't want extremes to be as unforgiving after Sephirot. In savage, they started to give damage downs instead of vuln stacks for some mechanics, which makes it easier for a red mage to survive and rez.

I find it useful being able to do this. If I do old content synced and minimum item level in Party Finder, I know that people usually won't be that good with the mechanics because it's old, so I bring a red mage and just rez all the time and it does allow us to clear a lot more than we normally would.

I'm indifferent to you other points, but this one stuck out to me.

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Originally Posted by Conadrium

The only way to do well numbers wise is to exhibit absolute perfection.

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uh ... as it should?

This sounds like you're not happy with the fact the party just push for the clear instead wiping and reset just because you tanking the floor? People are there to clear the fight, not play to carry you to good number.

I have seen people asking party to wipe or just refusing to take the res when they die because "MY PARSE!!". Most difficult fights already have other soft punishment. Like half the mechanic in P5S usually follow by the poison tower that requires everyone to be up or you still gonna wipe anyway. Res allows save. Also it's invaluable during prog, even when the party can no longer clear the fight due to many deaths, it allows party to keep moving to learn and see more.

If you're depending that heavily on battle raises, you're doing something very wrong.

I wouldn't mind if they upped the Ress MP cost for healers and either removed them from Magic DPS or made them into oGCD Role Skills with no cost but really long CD (like 5 minutes).

Rezzes are rarely enough to save a run in Unreal/Extreme/Savage. They're pretty fine elsewhere.

Res is fine as it is and we suffer enough as it is. If you wanna try a hardcore mode, find people that would be agreeable and see how things go.

I'm a bit torn on this coming from wow where res isn't so much of a thing.

From a difficulty perspective, having access to so many forms of res probably feels weird in a more casual group content situation. It feels like you can't actually fail most fights but are rarely enough to save an attempt at much higher difficulties.

From a playstyle perspective, it's superior in the sense that...dying and being forced to stay dead for the duration of a fight is a boring design choice.
On the surface it may seem like dying is punishment for playing poorly or mistakes, but when fights can last over 15 minutes, just sitting there on the floor because of one simple mistake or other factor isn't really thrilling gameplay.

Not at all, in fact I’m not talking about death there but damage down and weakness. Bosses are both too easy and too precise. It becomes a dance of stand on this spot. Ok stand on this spot. You got clipped? Be a gimp for 30 seconds but still easily kill it. Uhh mixed signals anyone?

In WOW BECAUSE deaths mean a wipe, the developers are limited in how tight they can make certain windows. How pixel perfect they can require you to be. When you can instantly be scraped off the floor, that limitation on design is gone.

Regardless save the hostility and the personal attacks, I’m here to gauge others opinions. If you oppose this line of thinking I highly suggest you stop trolling and start providing feedback because Criterion dungeons are fairly obviously a test run of this concept.

If you need more than, say, three in-combat raises you probably deserve the wipe anyway. 30+ raises on E4N deserves a wipe.

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Originally Posted by Conadrium

Not at all, in fact I’m not talking about death there but damage down and weakness. Bosses are both too easy and too precise. It becomes a dance of stand on this spot. Ok stand on this spot. You got clipped? Be a gimp for 30 seconds but still easily kill it. Uhh mixed signals anyone?

In WOW BECAUSE deaths mean a wipe, the developers are limited in how tight they can make certain windows. How pixel perfect they can require you to be. When you can instantly be scraped off the floor, that limitation on design is gone.

Regardless save the hostility and the personal attacks, I’m here to gauge others opinions. If you oppose this line of thinking I highly suggest you stop trolling and start providing feedback because Criterion dungeons are fairly obviously a test run of this concept.

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Criterion's the test?

I invite you to check out Baldesion's Arsenal and Delubrum Reginae (Savage).

People are actually being fairly polite here, though you are coming in talking about removing res when you had a rough time in a normal raid, which isn't the most difficult content. If you want to gauge opinions, you're going to find some on more than just this idea with what you've presented.

OP, as a healer main, I am trying to determine your actual issue or desire.

it sounds more like you want to restrict or remove rezzes, because they make things.. too "easy"?

if you wouldnt mind, please clarify what you are actually wanting.

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

Rezzes are rarely enough to save a run in Unreal/Extreme/Savage. They're pretty fine elsewhere.

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Rez is usually fine in extreme, especially if people aren't the lowest possible item level and have good damage. Unreal varies because it syncs everyone to almost minimum item level, but if we use Ultima's Bane as an example, people could die all the time and get a rez and you still wouldn't see enrage.

I agree it's usually not fine in Savage because everyone needs to be alive for almost every cast and the DPS checks are tighter.

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Originally Posted by Conadrium

Not at all, in fact I’m not talking about death there but damage down and weakness.

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When you die, you've always had your damage reduced, even before we had red mages and that is to make beating enrage harder when mistakes are made. Enrages only happen in high-end duties mostly.

The damage downs used to just be vuln stacks, but the design shifted sometime in Stormblood through Shadowbringers to give damage downs instead so that it's easier to practice mechanics later in the fight, even when mistakes are made. But the intention of the developers is that the damage downs prevent you from beating enrage.

Of course, it becomes easier to beat enrage even with the damage downs as you gear up, so if you attempt these fights later in the tier or when they are no longer current, then the enrage cast is not going to be an issue.

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Originally Posted by Conadrium

Not at all, in fact I’m not talking about death there but damage down and weakness. Bosses are both too easy and too precise. It becomes a dance of stand on this spot. Ok stand on this spot. You got clipped? Be a gimp for 30 seconds but still easily kill it. Uhh mixed signals anyone?

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That's only the case after the gear reach a point where it can over-compensate for player mistake. At the start when everyone still at minimum ilvl a few deaths still gonna make you hard-enrage. Heck, even now in P7S/P8S even with less than a handful of deaths gonna still make a sub 620 party hit hard enrage.

Yes the more gears you have the more forgiving the DPS gonna become, because you don't take a party full of T8 in WoW into Naxx and complain the first wing is too easy do you?

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In WOW BECAUSE deaths mean a wipe, the developers are limited in how tight they can make certain windows. How pixel perfect they can require you to be. When you can instantly be scraped off the floor, that limitation on design is gone.

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Uh no ... I don't know what WOW look like these days, but back when I played it (Release up to Cata) those statements simply not true. Warlock Soul Stone and Combat Res is a thing. Also the normal raid is designed with a significant buffer. A normal 25men raid only need 16-18 competent players to carry the rest. I remember my first kill of Heigan the Unclean (?may misremember him with another boss) back in the days were with just 4 players, 2 tanks and 2 healers because all the DPS got killed within the first minute of the fight. After a few resets with the same result, the leader decided just let those who know how to do the dance kill him, and we did it in a pull that lasted almost 30min.


Now Heroic Raid WoW is a different story where precision would be required and would be comparable to min-ilvl savage of FF14. The point is no all content are challenge and death = wipe in wow, in fact that's only applicable to the highest level content of WoW.

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Regardless save the hostility and the personal attacks, I’m here to gauge others opinions. If you oppose this line of thinking I highly suggest you stop trolling and start providing feedback because Criterion dungeons are fairly obviously a test run of this concept.

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I'll be blunt, your mention of "good number" rubbed me the wrong way, so I gave it a very blunt response. Because that reason sounds rather selfish to me, and like I said there have been players carry that selfishness into the actual runs. Last week one of the PF I was in had to leave and kick a player who refuse to take the res because - quote: "I have no interest in taking a res if I die within the 2 minutes of the fight".


No one trolling you, as far as I can see from all the comment, they generally disagree with you though, is that constitute as trolling?

As far as experimenting ... well, it's new content, so it goes without saying they are experimental something. But like another had said, you may think the way you think because you haven't really explored all the high and low of content yet.


- Ultimate fights: these are the hardest content in the game. And res for the most part is just a useful tool to let the group push as far as possible to learn the fight. In ultimate for the most part, even just one death would already be fatal unless it falls under a very lucky window.

- The relic savage dungeon: Baldesion's Arsenal and Delubrum Reginae. Especially the former, it was designed similar to WoW raid structure with multiple bosses in a wing with mob/corridors in between. Res both in and out side of combat is severely limited and expensive. I had many Aresnal run that got abandoned because the ressers ran out of "supply".

But these contents are designed and intended for the most diligent players, these contents even at their peak are something the majority of the players wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. If you want the kind of challenge you seek I highly recommend those.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Rez is usually fine in extreme, especially if people aren't the lowest possible item level and have good damage. Unreal varies because it syncs everyone to almost minimum item level, but if we use Ultima's Bane as an example, people could die all the time and get a rez and you still wouldn't see enrage.

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It's not just DPS checks for this. In fact, it's rarely that. Most of the wipes are runs that snowball out of control with people dying one by one. It could be panic, or just the inability to do party mechanics, or both. Sephirot and Endsinger are the key examples.

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

Rezzes are rarely enough to save a run in Unreal/Extreme/Savage. They're pretty fine elsewhere.

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Yeah, I was going to say; if you mess up in higher end content (savage, some ultimates), you typically just wiped the entire party.

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To the OP:

I do understand the complaint you have here about being able to force your way through, but I don't know how people would feel about the game filtering them in what is supposed to be story mode content.

I personally want filters to exist, but then you're alienating people.

I love it when a bunch of people die, I swiftcast one and hard-rez another and until they get up I can sip my coffee in peace. They did not die because I was sipping coffee beforehand.

I hope they hardcore restrict raises so RDM can stop being so penalized for having one. I haven't minded the limited rezzes in stuff like Criterion or BA at all. Can I carry casual content when I'm on RDM and I'm above level 64 because of raise? Yes. But does anyone learn anything or improve when I'm rezzing them 5 times? Probably not. It's really not that much of a benefit outside of content without an enrage where you can just drag people to the finish line with a RDM, and I don't think being dragged to the finish line is all that fun for anyone.

I'm going to assume you don't play a healer. I appreciate my backup rezzes because PUGs are often pear shaped and they can mean the difference between success and failure when we have those classes. The reason you can see something like that now in Eden Titan is because we over ilevel that content enough that it can be downed with multiple people down. That wasn't the case when it was current. Rezzes are fine. If you're really that opposed to them, make parties with like-minded people and intentionally limit your rezzes.

And we see more damage down because dps and others were too happy to stand in everything and didn't care if they died because they were too worried about their numbers. Now they get something that actually makes them do the mechanics.

Weird thing to say, but this reminds me of Path of Exile where the developers admitted to balancing the super hard boss fights around the player being able to log out and save their character with no penalty. When you have the option to completely tap out of a fight and not go back to it, you have a greater luxury of making it hard so that the player returns more prepared and relatively unharmed (compared to if the character was in Hardcore mode and couldn't log out to safety, dying to the tough fight and losing the character forever).

Possibly the fights in FFXIV are balanced around being able to Resurrect and not caring about resurrect sickness, to a point. OFC it's not even like FFXIV allows this everywhere, like Baldesion Arsenal and Savage Criterion.

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

Rezzes are rarely enough to save a run in Unreal/Extreme/Savage. They're pretty fine elsewhere.

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I mean healing in casual content in general is slightly overpowered compared to the more difficult content out there. And that's to be expected. There's nothing really wrong with it.

Nope.

PUGs are not always great with the mechanics.

I have had several PUGs where more than 1 person has been one-shot because they failed at the mechanics. Happens a ton of Ultima Weapon. I don't think there is a one-shot there, but certainly times when you could die in 2 shots without the healer being able to get a heal off on you.

Me being able to res at least one of them means that we rarely fail at the fight. In PUG dungeons, I only ever drop the res when swiftcast is up. Don't have time for those 8-second reses. If the fight lasts long enough, the second person will get resed too.

If I had no res, the whole thing starts again.

I think a lot of non-healers fail to realise the amount of damage the players take. It isn't their concern, but one slip-up from anybody (especially the healer), and everybody is dead.

Most are, the one I replied to was not.

No I am fine with the way it is. I dont want to have to suffer who knows how many trys for normal content just because we wipe when someone dies. That just feels like a playground for toxic people. In really hard content a dead can already mess up the whole run and I see no reason why one should bring this to the casual content too.

And I you wanna have it harder just do the dungeon with NCPs. There you wipe if you die. I can tell you that even though I enjoy running it with NPCs it makes every mistake you do quite risky. I would not want to have that with randoms that unlike the npcs are not programmed to do the right thing.

I do play healer and also summoner. I’ve dragged quite a few parties across the finish line with ress after ress. DR pugs especially lol…

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Originally Posted by Conadrium

I do play healer and also summoner. I’ve dragged quite a few parties across the finish line with ress after ress. DR pugs especially lol…

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I've done this as well, even in some extreme fights. :) It's very satisfying (even though people can be ungrateful :rolleyes: )


It bothers me to think they've actually considered dropping raise from summoner.

We have similar feature in Delubrum Reginae Savage (bozja) and The Baldesion Arsenal (Eureka)

it's no fun i tell you

No bonusses in hard content, you are supposed to do the mechanics not just suicide in one of them and get revived.

There is FC boosts that lower that timer though, but the run is already over when people start dying.

I think it would make it to easy if people is not restricted heavy in Savage/Ex/Ulti content.

Besides raid ways today is not like the old days.. and even before wow where you had to encounter trashmobs and more and no skips between bosses like eg. it is in FFXIV Savage... they made Raids Ulimate Trials long story told short.

No, just no. Res doesn't really help that much in endgame raiding and it makes the game bearable for newbies and doesn't let you rely heavily on a player who might just burn the whole group down on his own if given the chance. For example if you couldn't resurrect players the tank just has to die and the whole dungeon boss fight well is a wipe, what if the tank never learns the fight properly? 3 people will suffer cause of this and spend probably 90min without clearing low tier content, the lowest of the low tier contents. And kicking the player isn't a really valid option since you could get well some forced vacation time for that, ToS be thanked...or cursed.

Maybe stop treating low tier content as if it has to be as hard as savage raiding. If you want unforgiving fights where you can't just rezz the whole group hundred times then well PLAY WHAT THE GAME ALREADY OFFERS YOU TO SATISFY THAT NEED OF YOURS, namely savage and ultimate and all that stuff even criterion. I will never get why certain people want to make literally EVERYTHING the same like there can't be any nuance to the game.

Tho i have to say, i also wish for more meaningful midcore content where things are a bit more punishing and healers have to actually heal. And that also having some sort of gear progression tied to it, like i wished that Criterion gave you a slightly worse itemlevel gear than what savage raiders get. So people have actually a way to fight for a piece of better gear that doesn't come from just always savage. Which would also solve the gearing your alt jobs problems that is atm a really hot topic.

No. Not with pug groups. Just imagine doing Tower at Paradigm with no rez. It’s always rez fest in there and it is long enough as it is. It would be nice if they brought back a harder version of the regular dungeon. Not savage level that requires prog but something a bit more challenging than normal braindead mode.