Criterion dungeons - will there be 'preferred' jobs?

Was wondering about Criterion (savage and normal) as to whether or not people think a 'preferred' job meta will form. It seems with limited raise and such that they may perform a bit differently than normal. Also, I saw somewhere either in the live letter or interview where Yoshi-P said pulling carefully and in the right order or a good order would be important - meaning perhaps jobs best suited for W2W pulls wouldn't be as stressed? Thoughts or ideas?

There's no way the unbalanced 8man jobs would get balanced in 4man content. So I'd say yes, definitely.

There will always be preferred jobs. We won't know which those are until the content is actually available, but it's a pretty safe bet Criterion dungeons will have their own meta separate from raids.

As for pulls; players in this game have a very strong "gotta go fast" mentality. Whether W2W pulling leads to extra issues for a group or not, it's probably going to be the go-to practice until or unless mechanics are introduced that make doing so the slower option.

I mean the normal dungeon job meta is already pretty unbalanced.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I mean the normal dungeon job meta is already pretty unbalanced.

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Fell Cleave go brrr.

Yes. Almost certainly.

The changes to rez in those dungeons are meant to prevent RDM and SMN from dominating, but that doesn't mean others won't now that rez is off the table.

Personally, my money would be on selfish DPS jobs - SAM, BLM, MCH, etc. Healer+tank could depend a bit on if/how much sustain and mitigation is needed.

Looking at how job balance is right now DNC/SAM is a pretty strong bet.

Dancer buffs still scale pretty well in a 4man setting due to Devilment/Standard Finish being single-target. On the other hand Bard buffs scale very poorly in a 4man setting and Machinist should only beat DNC on single target.

Melees (except Reaper) are in a very good spot and I don't really see them not being played for the content. If you are bringing a Dancer you are probably looking at bringing a Samurai as well. The other melees are losing somewhat on raid buffs not affecting 8 members but all of them are still outputting a lot of adps regardless.

There might be an argument for bringing a Summoner if there is a lot of add packs to be pulled considering how effective the job is at outputting aoe damage, especially with minor downtimes in-between pulls. But both Red Mage and Summoner not having access to raise is a detriment considering their single target damage is taxed for having that utility. Black Mage sounds pretty good on paper but it's probably safer to bring something with an easier access to movement and better party utility.

Selfish DPS should fare somewhat better than usual due to party wide raid buffs not scaling as well as usual in 4man content.

It's anyone's guess until they release the actual content though.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Personally, my money would be on selfish DPS jobs - SAM, BLM, MCH, etc.

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Hah, good one.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Hah, good one.

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MCH is great in 4-man content

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Originally Posted by Wilford111

MCH is great in 4-man content

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https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...dps&dataset=95

Truly a powerhouse...

Phys ranged are lagging behind and considering you can only bring 2 dps, they no longer bring the 1% role bonus buff, which is a big reason you even bring one in Savage raids. SAM + SMN or BLM will be a very strong choice though.
All the tanks are fine, WAR obviously having the heal advantage.
AST is a dead job in dungeons with absolutely pitiful dps, so SGE/WHM will probably dominate there.

All theory of course based on current Normal dungeon numbers. We can't predict exactly how they'll design these.

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Originally Posted by Wilford111

MCH is great in 4-man content

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and in potd, hoh, etc.

Some people can't look beyond "lags a bit in 8 person content with perfectly timed and stacked buff windows" to "blows every ranged except blm out of the water in everything else and can kite forever", alas

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Made even better by the fact that phys range could be excluded entirely since they won't be required for the 1% group buff.

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if that happens, it'll probably be magical ranged as well. RDM and SMN don't have their rez utility anymore and in this setting, have worse damage than MCH. BLM has a bit more damage but doesn't have the mobility/kiting.

If there's nothing that gives a downside to melee in this content, though, it could very well be a MNK+SAM meta for DPS.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

if that happens, it'll probably be magical ranged as well. RDM and SMN don't have their rez utility anymore and in this setting, have worse damage than MCH. BLM has a bit more damage but doesn't have the mobility/kiting.

If there's nothing that gives a downside to melee in this content, though, it could very well be a MNK+SAM meta for DPS.

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Looking at the dungeon statistics the other poster provided, Summoner beats out some melee, so they would still be strong even without a rez. Probably thanks to their ridiculous amount of AoE on the trash pulls.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Some people can't look beyond "lags a bit in 8 person content with perfectly timed and stacked buff windows" to "blows every ranged except blm out of the water in everything else and can kite forever", alas

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MCH is still pretty weak in dungeons, the other phys ranged just kind of lose their edge over it.

As others have been saying, we'll probably just see melee/caster comps with phys ranged benched, unless they add some kind of content-specific mechanic that makes phys ranged more powerful.

Summoner has mobility and decent damage. Red mage has....umm....nice hats?

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Looking at the dungeon statistics the other poster provided, Summoner beats out some melee, so they would still be strong even without a rez. Probably thanks to their ridiculous amount of AoE on the trash pulls.

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AOE and burst that recharges between pulls, yeah. And now we're getting into the specifics of "how will it be tuned?" which we don't know.

If it's just uptuned regular dungeons, aoe and buffers will still be relatively strong, though the latter still much diminished compared to 8 person content.

If it's more like HoH/PotD's "hardcore"/upper floors, well, that's going to play out a good bit differently and, again, with rez utility out of the way, selfish damage, ideally without much setup and with a lot of mobility, is likely to be king here.

But we don't know that much yet, we'll have to wait and see.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

MCH is still pretty weak in dungeons, the other phys ranged just kind of lose their edge over it.

As others have been saying, we'll probably just see melee/caster comps with phys ranged benched, unless they add some kind of content-specific mechanic that makes phys ranged more powerful.

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But for people that want the best single-target damage outside of a timed raid buff setting and with smaller comps, MCH outperforms SMN and RDM. (ie, potd/hoh-style tuning).

And melee outperform all of the above. Ranged can still be valuable in potd/hoh because they can more easily avoid deadly/one-shot attacks from mobs and traps, but it's unknown if things like this will be a factor in criterion dungeons.

If mobs hit weakly enough that mass pulls are still possible and good aoe for large numbers is a thing, RDM and SMN may still be favored.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

and in potd, hoh, etc.

Some people can't look beyond "lags a bit in 8 person content with perfectly timed and stacked buff windows" to "blows every ranged except blm out of the water in everything else and can kite forever", alas

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You are underestimating SMN a lot here. Even bereft of its rez utility, it boasts some of the highest raw burst you will get out of a ranged DPS. Its burst windows are frequent, powerful, and highly effective for both AoE and single-target. It blows BLM clean out of the atmosphere in this regard. I would wager it handily exceeds MCH in both of these areas as well.

As you said: weakness in 8-man content does not translate to weakness in dungeons.

I definitely expect to see a lot of SMN activity in Criterion.

Yep, I saw in an article on estnn.com where it stated
"Instead of having to pick and chose paths that lead through the dungeon, it'll be a linear experience. Raises will also be limited to only one raise per player. And this will only recharge after a boss is slain. To reach a boss, players have to clear out monsters roaming the maze. But, unlike other dungeons, just pulling everything wall to wall will guarantee a wipe. Naoki Yoshida warned players that pulling more than one enemy at a time will end up in disaster and it is up to players to position and pull monsters in the right order to smoothly advance to the next boss."

That's why I made the post because it sounds so different from current dungeons, I wondered what would work best. That quote is in reference to savage.

I can almost guarantee you people will find ways to pull groups of mobs anyway. They'll either have to overtune the fudge out of the mobs, give all of them some kind of stackable debuff, or nerf certain jobs. If not, there will definitely be shenanigans from certain quasi-immortal job combinations.

Its not just about the balance, its also about the overall difficulty of the dungeon, the job balance will matter only if dps check are very tight

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

Was wondering about Criterion (savage and normal) as to whether or not people think a 'preferred' job meta will form. It seems with limited raise and such that they may perform a bit differently than normal. Also, I saw somewhere either in the live letter or interview where Yoshi-P said pulling carefully and in the right order or a good order would be important - meaning perhaps jobs best suited for W2W pulls wouldn't be as stressed? Thoughts or ideas?

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Also remains the question whether or not Sleep worrks on trash and if it can be a relevant CC method for safer pulls.

Holy could be potentially a great asset as well. It is already a super strong mitigation method on regular dungeons, I would imagine it being even more valuable on a situation where the trash is even more dangerous. Again, assuming that it will work.

I'm hoping all the trash in Criterion dungeons are completely immune to CC. That in and of itself would be a good first step toward making sure the kid gloves are well and properly off.

Not rezmage thats for sure :(

Yeaaaahhh... Barring significant change to its kit (or at least its potencies), I think we can safely rule RDM out of being any use at all in Criterions. Pity, because the job itself is fun. It just sucks.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Yeaaaahhh... Barring significant change to its kit (or at least its potencies), I think we can safely rule RDM out of being any use at all in Criterions. Pity, because the job itself is fun. It just sucks.

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If they turn this into content where you need no healers again Ill flip the table.

A table, not mine.

Of course there will. As evident by island sanctuaries, people will always min-max the **** out of any content.

However i would probably quess every job is gonna be able to clear it, especially with some higher item level, but some are clearly gonna better than others.

Depends entirely on how strict the DPS checks are since they've stated that enemies will get stronger as the instance drags on.

Hopefully they learned their lesson from pre-nerf 8S and didn't tune it too tightly.

I'm expecting the trash to be more along the lines of what was encountered in later PotD/HoH floors in that you have to actually respect their mechanics and set kill priorities in some cases if you don't want to wipe.

Expertly played DPS will always outperform moderately played DPS, regardless of the job. Especially if the jobs all play off each other's synergy, like in 8-man raid content. The DPS differential between jobs only matters if you have an expertly played MCH (for example) against an above average SAM (for example). If that's your group's problem, you'll probably be fine anyway.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

Criterion dungeons - will there be 'preferred' jobs?

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Will there be jobs that the forum/discord/reddit declare unplayable based on minute differences in DPS? Yes.

Will those jobs actually be playable? Also yes, but forum/discord/reddit will discourage players from playing or accepting non-meta jobs.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Expertly played DPS will always outperform moderately played DPS, regardless of the job. Especially if the jobs all play off each other's synergy, like in 8-man raid content. The DPS differential between jobs only matters if you have an expertly played MCH (for example) against an above average SAM (for example). If that's your group's problem, you'll probably be fine anyway.

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Oh that's a good one. Rolling on the floor right now.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...68/unknown.png

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Expertly played DPS will always outperform moderately played DPS, regardless of the job. Especially if the jobs all play off each other's synergy, like in 8-man raid content. The DPS differential between jobs only matters if you have an expertly played MCH (for example) against an above average SAM (for example). If that's your group's problem, you'll probably be fine anyway.

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You uh... seem to be gravely underestimating how far out of whack the balance has been allowed to slide. Certain jobs are bad enough to serve as genuine hindrances.

I mean what we know already is that nobody will take MCH with them...like always. SE really hates MCH.

Some usable CC like sleep/repose would be neat to correct a minor overpull or something of that nature. I miss the days in the grotto where using sleep on the good Cap'n and some of his lackeys was a viable mitigation tactic.

I'll play with my friends and we all pick jobs we like to play. It's nice we finally get 4 men stuff that isn't PotD. :)

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Originally Posted by Ranaku

I mean what we know already is that nobody will take MCH with them...like always. SE really hates MCH.

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Just for that, Im taking in Machinist.
Not out of spite, but out of curiousness to see if it would be THAT bad.
I think every job is viable if done correctly, but of course some jobs are better then others, and people will take the path of least resistance.

I'm hoping sage will do well there, that or PLD. I have samurai available, at least, in case it calls for that. Best case is that everything is equalized like in Bozja, where all jobs are somewhat on equal footing ^^

AoE damage is one respect where the different jobs are very much not equal so if doing big pulls is actually viable there's going to be a definite meta formed around that.

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Originally Posted by Cygnia

Some usable CC like sleep/repose would be neat to correct a minor overpull or something of that nature. I miss the days in the grotto where using sleep on the good Cap'n and some of his lackeys was a viable mitigation tactic.

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And sleeping the big guy on second boss in Brayflox so the team could burn the little guy down before he killed her. Or she killed one of the team with her bombs.

my group will be running Pld, Whm, Mch, and Mnk

but, we are just a group of friends just messin around and not trying to min/max the hell out of it.