How much difference in damage should the tanks have?

3%? What's a good median difference and why? I'd like to see a good discussion on this.

0% to none, preferably.

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Originally Posted by Aluja89

0% to none, preferably.

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So you like homogenization? Not accusing, just seeking opinions.

Absolutely not, like I said. It's preferable if there's 0% but that's impossible, all 4 tanks are sort of homogenized already so the discrepancy we're experiencing now is just hilarious.

I'd prefer tanks to be more about mitigating damage instead of being a DPS arms race.

Tanks were more balanced when they only had 100-200 DPS difference. 500 DPS difference is pretty bad and just says go play GNB/DRK.

This xpac is pretty bad considering we are in the dark ages of homogenization where you only have red green and blue DPS.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

So you like homogenization? Not accusing, just seeking opinions.

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Do not need homogenisation when there is no other contribution factors to account for in calculating tank DPS, like possessing raid buffs, the only thing that should in any way skew the damage output is Crit and DH variance.

I agree with the 3%, based on what the Tank Job brings to the table. If they bring next to nothing to help with the Party/Raid, then they should be on the top in terms of DMG output, because they would need it to compensate for their poor party/raid utility. Then the one that brings loads, would be on the bottom in terms of DMG, due to how much they bring to the group/raid in terms of useful utility.

So to me. (Highest to Lowest DPS Output.)

1. Dark Knight
2. Warrior
3. Gunbreaker
4. Paladin

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Originally Posted by HolyReign

I agree with the 3%, based on what the Tank Job brings to the table. If they bring next to nothing to help with the Party/Raid, then they should be on the top in terms of DMG output, because they would need it to compensate for their poor party/raid utility. Then the one that brings loads, would be on the bottom in terms of DMG, due to how much they bring to the group/raid in terms of useful utility.

So to me. (Highest to Lowest DPS Output.)

1. Dark Knight
2. Warrior
3. Gunbreaker
4. Paladin

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Ideally, what I'd like to see is every tank job be redesigned with trading small DPS for small utilities.

So I'd like PLD and DRK to have the most utilities, thus the lowest DPS, while WAR and GNB have less utility, but slightly more DPS, not varying too too much, but enough to feel like "Yeah I'm a WAR main, I do the most damage but bring the least utility." That's core identity to me.

So I think it should be in terms of utility:

1. PLD
2. DRK
3. GNB
4. WAR

In terms of DPS, reflecting that:

1. WAR
2. GNB
3. DRK
4. PLD

I don't think the utility and DPS should be massive (especially not the mess it is right now), but I think that's the job fantasy I have in my mind for each of these jobs historically and classically and want to see. I think all 4 tanks should be able to clear all content with no issues at all times, but I love the idea of PLD being lowest DPS best utility while WAR being highest DPS lowest utility, so long as the gap isn't too massive for each.

But yes, currently in terms of utility with how the jobs are right now, your order is correct. I just don't think WAR should have this much utility and healing.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

I'd prefer tanks to be more about mitigating damage instead of being a DPS arms race.

Tanks were more balanced when they only had 100-200 DPS difference. 500 DPS difference is pretty bad and just says go play GNB/DRK.

This xpac is pretty bad considering we are in the dark ages of homogenization where you only have red green and blue DPS.

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Considering how much 100 extra dps can do to help meet dps checks might argue that's really enough.
I honestly agree with this take in general, everyone is generally just talking about "Hominization" but if the only *real* different between tanks is this tank does slightly more damage but is slightly less tanky. Like Either would really change a fight that much (If the damage difference wasn't so much like it is now).

I don't think it's that hard making mitigation different but somewhat balanced, The 30% Mit is a example where they could add different things like warrior does, they could add/change more defensives to be unique (Without the "unique" aspect just meaning bad)
Paladin is weird its defensives are pretty different I do like that but at the same time if people are going to call it a "utility tank" we should really be making its utility more viable and more of a reason why you would pick a Paladin over a Gunbreaker, who is better defensively and offensively.

My Main problem with the "x" needs to do more dps because this tank is either "more defensive" or "has more utility" is normally the utility or defensives aren't enough to be a significant upside to even justify a 100 Dps difference, Paladins support options aren't enough for it to be behind (has one less personal already... and I'm not even a fan of this, considering they don't even benefit from their raid wides). Warriors blood whetting is great! but No it doesn't justify a massive difference, it's not that good compared to other small cooldowns (In dungeons yes, but raid content no).

Should be based off their mitigation and self sustain. Which should be DRK>GNB>WAR>PLD

However it would be more ideal to give them all equal mitigation and dps but I dont see them doing that.

PLD needs a rework. It has the most complex rotation yet does the least dps out of the tanks and has the least self mitigation. This expansion job balance is completely out of whack. From dps all the way down to mitigation and sustain.

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Originally Posted by Aluja89

0% to none, preferably.

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Issue with doing that and nothing else is that in an environment where every tank does the same ammount of damage, then the Tanks who have additional utility will always be meta and the ones that don't will be left in the dust. DRK and GNB don't get to function as 3rd healers like WAR, so if WAR is hitting as hard as them, why bring DRK or GNB?

In which we'd be forced to make them all have the same defenses too, in which we'd get even closer to having exactly 1 tank class with 4 different cosmetic options

The balance of this game is actually REALLY bad and has been for a while, its just that the majority of content is so easy that no one notices.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

In which we'd be forced to make them all have the same defenses too, in which we'd get even closer to having exactly 1 tank class with 4 different cosmetic options.

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It already happened. That's what tank mastery trait did and turned all tank stances into a one button set and forget it. Enmity is such a joke that I wouldn't be surprised if tank stances were just baked into the job and instead they introduce OT stances back since they are so adamant on turning every tank into a pseudo dps. They've literally jumped the shark when it comes to tank homogenization.

Imo 1-2% should be the minimum though if you play a job that cannot clear savage content week 1 because you lack gear then there is something wrong with the balancing. Though I already knew that for years ever since 4.1 destroyed WAR.

The real issue is how the 2 min timer windows destroyed gcd focused jobs. Every job must now dump all their damage in 15-20 secs and if you have a job that's mostly ogcds vs a job that's only gcds guess what will happen? It also doesn't help that FC and EoS are the same potency. Think about that. WAR has to spend a gcd for FC and a combo to get 10% while DRK can double weave EoS in between a gcd and get its dmg buff asap. 1 sec recast > 2.5 sec recast and that is a fact.

I'm also not a fan of this rng dmg that started with WAR's IR that spread to other jobs. I'm not sure why they think hitting the same button only to get wildly varying dmg is fun. I can tell you personally as someone who stuck with WAR through thick and thin that seeing bigger numbers but not actually bigger damage is jarring. It's also not fun knowing that my performance is based on a dice roll. Anyone who has crit their biggest hitting button vs not crit knows what I mean.

Ultimately this won't affect 99% of the playerbase but the fact that it happened in 2022 where you bring your favorite job that you love to play to raid and are then told that you cannot play that job because we won't be able to clear means that we haven't progressed much from HW gordias.

less than 3.14%

If all tank defensives are supposed to be the same, why doesn't DRK have large amounts of self-healing? This seems like an oversight then and SE should be giving DRK a self-sustain ability regardless. Sure you can mitigate large amounts of damage, but it isn't the same.

Personally I'd rather have defensives be different than all the DPS numbers being the same.

Call it homogenization if you want. Fact is, this game's raiding community only cares about damage output. Any tank that lags behind will essentially be the redheaded step child, regardless of what other helpful tricks it brings to the table. Either put them in a state of parity or don't bother.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Call it homogenization if you want. Fact is, this game's raiding community only cares about damage output. Any tank that lags behind will essentially be the redheaded step child, regardless of what other helpful tricks it brings to the table. Either put them in a state of parity or don't bother.

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This is because there's literally nothing else to care about. Who cares that Warrior has all this self-healing when it never factors into the fight design as everything is tuned to accommodate every possible tank comp? At least in theory. Warrior offers nothing Dark Knight simply doesn't do better at the Savage level. Sure, Warrior can heal but Dark Knight just takes less damage because it'll always have a bazillion CDs ready for busters. Holmgang is amazing... but not in a raid tier where all invulns took an indirect nerf.

The same exists for healers. White Mage is supposed to be the "raw healer" in a game where every healers must be capable of clearing content. Therefore, those massive "raw heals" will never have value.

If the devs want us to care about something beyond damage. They need to stop making it the only thing that matters.

0-1% honestly.

It literally does not matter what tank pair u got u can pass all the mit checks one way or the other. Utility is kind of irrelevant since all tanks have reprisal a 2nd party mit and enough CDs to live what they need to.

So in all honesty, all jobs should do the same dmg. Numbers dont matter, the jobs play differently and that is where diversity comes in.

U should not need to be punished because u dont want carpal tunnel, or u just prefer to play a different job.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

So you like homogenization? Not accusing, just seeking opinions.

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homogenization of performance is great because nobody wants to play a job that deals half the damage of the others, and nobody wants to play a tank that can't survive the incoming damage of a fight

homogenization of playstyle is the problem, because the whole point of having different jobs is so people that enjoy different things can have options that suit their taste

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Originally Posted by Marxam

The real issue is how the 2 min timer windows destroyed gcd focused jobs. Every job must now dump all their damage in 15-20 secs and if you have a job that's mostly ogcds vs a job that's only gcds guess what will happen? It also doesn't help that FC and EoS are the same potency. Think about that. WAR has to spend a gcd for FC and a combo to get 10% while DRK can double weave EoS in between a gcd and get its dmg buff asap. 1 sec recast > 2.5 sec recast and that is a fact.

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that's not a problem with 2-min meta. if fell cleave had 5000 potency, war would easily outdps dark knight. the reason why war's DPS is low is simply because the devs want it to be. after all, they have the ability to increase potency by as much as they want, whenever they want, and choose not to.

same goes for paladin. if the devs wanted to, they could make it deal more DPS than a SAM without changing a single thing about their rotation.

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Originally Posted by Melethron123

homogenization of performance is great because nobody wants to play a job that deals half the damage of the others, and nobody wants to play a tank that can't survive the incoming damage of a fight

homogenization of playstyle is the problem, because the whole point of having different jobs is so people that enjoy different things can have options that suit their taste

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I'd likely disagree, I think with tanks and Healers you should generally have meaningful differences in their kit, obviously some basic fundamentals that all those jobs share, but at the same time it's good when different Jobs excel in different areas, but are still all viable enough in every content.

I personally don't mind IF PLD performs slightly worse by lets say 1% damage, if it has good survivability and defensives in general good utility and support. I think it's fine to have small damage and utility differences in general it's healthier for the game. I feel like currently PLD is bad in both areas of defensives and damage output.

Realistically as long as jobs have different rotations theirs always going to be slight performance differences in damage terms, I again don't think that's a issue as long as all jobs stay viable.

Around 2% because no such thing as perfect balance.

What tanks need is their identities and class fantasy(TM) back. For some tanks their role actions are nearly half their kit.

Considering how similar all of the tanks play and the difficultly level of playing them is similar, their DPS should be similar. My hotbars for 2 tanks are nearly the identical ( WAR and PLD ). GNB is almost the same as WAR with a few differences. Same with PLD really. DRK is the only one that is setup fairly differently, but that might just be because I play it the least so it feels different to me. Maybe it is more similar to the other tanks than I realize.

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Originally Posted by Melethron123

homogenization of performance is great because nobody wants to play a job that deals half the damage of the others, and nobody wants to play a tank that can't survive the incoming damage of a fight

homogenization of playstyle is the problem, because the whole point of having different jobs is so people that enjoy different things can have options that suit their taste

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In practical terms, these are mutually exclusive. Maybe if raid content was the *only* content they worked on, or if they had a team large enough and diverse enough that they could afford to have an entire "raid team" that did raids and *only* raids (designers, programmers, artists, sound techs, testers, etc - *all* of them devoted to *only* doing raid content.) But on a project where that doesn't exist? You cannot possibly afford to devote that much effort and time to achieving both goals.

Personally, if I was in charge, I'd be working on making savage and ultimate completely, totally separate from normal and ex. They would operate on their own PvP-like toolkits and rules and stats. Every class has unchangeable stats, every action does a precise amount of damage or healing with a specific GCD (factoring in buffs that may need to be maintained, etc), and so on. Then, "regular" PvE would focus on fulfilling class fantasy first and foremost, and parse balance afterwards... because normals don't even *have* DPS or mitigation checks for practical intents and purposes, and Ex's checks are very, very generous (as long as your group isn't constantly fucking up the mechanics, you can pass Ex easily with pretty subpar performance, even MINE.) I want the raging berserker Warrior, the Dark Knight that uses their health as a resource, a White Mage that obliterates undead, and so on. Definitely the kind of long-term change and adjustment that would take a long time to implement, absolutely an expansion-level process. And like they're doing with trusts, I think I'd start by only having *current* raids and ultimates obey the new paradigm and... well, if the old stuff becomes "impossible" for a patch or two under MINE/ultimate sync, so be it. It wouldn't be the first time they've done something like this. Probably aim for each patch to bring an old tier/ultimates up to parity with the new system.

A lot of work up front, to save a lot of work down the road.

But why bother with that kind of work, when a majority of your income is from Limsa and Gridania ERP-AFKers? Those people wouldn't give a fig about such changes.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

In practical terms, these are mutually exclusive. Maybe if raid content was the *only* content they worked on, or if they had a team large enough and diverse enough that they could afford to have an entire "raid team" that did raids and *only* raids (designers, programmers, artists, sound techs, testers, etc - *all* of them devoted to *only* doing raid content.) But on a project where that doesn't exist? You cannot possibly afford to devote that much effort and time to achieving both goals.

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DRG and NIN have very different playstyles and they have a lower DPS difference than WAR and DRK. it's actually very easy to make two different jobs with very different rotations have the same damage, all you have to do is tune their potencies and do a test run with a DPS meter

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Originally Posted by Melethron123

DRG and NIN have very different playstyles and they have a lower DPS difference than WAR and DRK. it's actually very easy to make two different jobs with very different rotations have the same damage, all you have to do is tune their potencies and do a test run with a DPS meter

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"Very easy?" that's pretty much incorrect, While Ninja and Dragoon perform similary, do keep in mind that not every melee dps is even in a similar spot, also when you take into account other fights Ninja/dragoon actually have a lot of different performences. It's clearly not "very easy" to balance the game fully while also making everyjob have a Different rotation.

A complete balance in DPS numbers isn't fun and doesn't lead to a "Intresting game", What is fun is actual differences, upsides and downsides in how a Job plays and what a Job brings, It's not a balanced game when a summoner who has a lot of mobility and utility does the same damage as a black mage, but if you made summoner a hard casting selfish dps then whats even the point of having a black mage and a summoner in the first place?

Again support/utility need to be considered on tanks and healers, again most people who play "tank" and who play "healer" don't want the same utility kit, they should share basic baselines but actually allow for room to excel at, DPS rotation isn't the only thing that needs to be considerd.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

"Very easy?" that's pretty much incorrect, While Ninja and Dragoon perform similary, do keep in mind that not every melee dps is even in a similar spot, also when you take into account other fights Ninja/dragoon actually have a lot of different performences. It's clearly not "very easy" to balance the game fully while also making everyjob have a Different rotation.

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in every fight of the current savage the biggest difference between DRG and NIN is about 300dps, which is around 2%. compare that to the 11% difference between war and drk and tell me they couldn't possibly make it better

whoever is in charge of tank balance seems to be tuning the numbers around rDPS instead of aDPS. either that or they intentionally want DRK to have much higher dmg than the others (even GNB isn't THAT much of a difference, at around 5%. could be better, but DRK is the clear outlier in terms of tank dmg)

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Originally Posted by Melethron123

in every fight of the current savage the biggest difference between DRG and NIN is about 250dps, which is 2%. compare that to the 11% difference between war and drk and tell me they couldn't possibly make it better

whoever is in charge of tank balance seems to be tuning the numbers around rDPS instead of aDPS. either that or they intentionally want DRK to have much higher dmg than the others (even GNB isn't THAT much of a difference, at around 5%. could be better, but DRK is the clear outlier in terms of tank dmg)

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Ok so you completely ignored my argument, if it was super easy then every melee dps would be doing the same damage, with no balancing tuning needed, it's actually incredibly hard even for a full development team to balance out different playstyles, this is why every job bursts into 120. Because the most common and most easy way to balance FF14 is to make the jobs have less differences in playstyles, look outside savage look into other fights such as extremes and ultimate's Ninjas/dragoons actually perform differently from one another depending on the fight structure.

You're never going to get 100% perfect balance in any game, that's fine as long as everything is Viable and actually is fun and unique to play, damage differences are Important but they aren't everything to game balance.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Ok so you completely ignored my argument, if it was super easy then every melee dps would be doing the same damage, with no balancing tuning needed, it's actually incredibly hard even for a full development team to balance out different playstyles, this is why every job bursts into 120. Because the most common and most easy way to balance FF14 is to make the jobs have less differences in playstyles, look outside savage look into other fights such as extremes and ultimate's Ninjas/dragoons actually perform differently from one another depending on the fight structure.

You're never going to get 100% perfect balance in any game, that's fine as long as everything is Viable and actually is fun and unique to play, damage differences are Important but they aren't everything to game balance.

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got time to kill while waiting for the reset, so let's do this: (i'm not going to include SAM since it's purely an ADPS job, which makes the balance more finicky)

P5S = RDPS: highest = 11.954, lowest = 11,524 (3,7% diference) / by ADPS: highest = 11.977, lowest = 11.873 (less than 1%)
P6S = RDPS: 12.094 and 11.716 (3.2%) / by ADPS: 12.162 and 11,964
P7S = RDPS: 11.958 and 11.530 (3,7%) / ADPS: 12,077 and 11,708
P8S1 = RDPS: 12.209 and 11.922 (2.4%) / ADPS: 12.375 and 12.124
P8S2 = RDPS: 12,437 and 11.887 (4.6%) / ADPS: 12.664 and 12.191 (3.8%)

so as we can see, only one fight has the highest melee and the lowest melee with a difference higher than 4%, with the outlier being NIN (the others are very close in dmg)

why did i not include SAM, you might ask? that's because comparing the damage between a job with raid buffs and a job without raid buffs doesn't make much sense, since they fulfill different niches in the party. but as it so happens, none of the tanks have raid buffs so we only need to balance around ADPS

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Originally Posted by Melethron123

got time to kill while waiting for the reset, so let's do this: (i'm not going to include SAM since it's purely an ADPS job, which makes the balance more finicky)

P5S = RDPS: highest = 11.954, lowest = 11,524 (3,7% diference) / by ADPS: highest = 11.977, lowest = 11.873 (less than 1%)
P6S = RDPS: 12.094 and 11.716 (3.2%) / by ADPS: 12.162 and 11,964
P7S = RDPS: 11.958 and 11.530 (3,7%) / ADPS: 12,077 and 11,708
P8S1 = RDPS: 12.209 and 11.922 (2.4%) / ADPS: 12.375 and 12.124
P8S2 = RDPS: 12,437 and 11.887 (4.6%) / ADPS: 12.664 and 12.191 (3.8%)

so as we can see, only one fight has the highest melee and the lowest melee with a difference higher than 4%, with the outlier being NIN (the others are very close in dmg)

why did i not include SAM, you might ask? that's because comparing the damage between a job with raid buffs and a job without raid buffs doesn't make much sense, since they fulfill different niches in the party. but as it so happens, none of the tanks have raid buffs so we only need to balance around ADPS

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4% is a pretty significant amount when it comes to ff14, it feels like you're underplaying it, also considering DRG/Reaper/Ninja/monk give different types of ADPS I don't really think it's a fair comparison.

Even if let's say all Melee dps were 1% apart, that's mainly due to how the jobs are easier to balance as Burst Jobs which in part goes back to my original point, the best way to "balance" the game is to make jobs play very similarly and cut out differences that "don't fit" into the game, despite a job being perfectly viable. I can admit theirs still room for unique Jobs in a burst meta, but at the same time it very much limits Jobs away from being a burst for the sake of "balance".

at the end of the day, if we wanna argue or not, it's not going to be "very easy" to balance the game without taking away aspects of Job identity, Looking at PLD a Big part of it's identity was Damage over time, that's being took away for "easier balance".

Balance for the sake of fun and uniqueness is generally the direction a lot of things are already going, but I rather not push a game where every job "has" to perform the same amount of damage numbers because it will come at the cost of a lot of what makes the game interesting.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

4% is a pretty significant amount when it comes to ff14, it feels like you're underplaying it, also considering DRG/Reaper/Ninja/monk give different types of ADPS I don't really think it's a fair comparison.

Even if let's say all Melee dps were 1% apart, that's mainly due to how the jobs are easier to balance as Burst Jobs which in part goes back to my original point, the best way to "balance" the game is to make jobs play very similarly and cut out differences that "don't fit" into the game, despite a job being perfectly viable. I can admit theirs still room for unique Jobs in a burst meta, but at the same time it very much limits Jobs away from being a burst for the sake of "balance".

at the end of the day, if we wanna argue or not, it's not going to be "very easy" to balance the game without taking away aspects of Job identity, Looking at PLD a Big part of it's identity was Damage over time, that's being took away for "easier balance".

Balance for the sake of fun and uniqueness is generally the direction a lot of things are already going, but I rather not push a game where every job "has" to perform the same amount of damage numbers because it will come at the cost of a lot of what makes the game interesting.

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if you think 4% is a big difference, that's even more for a reason for job balance to be stricter. especially when one tank is dealing 11% more dmg than the others...

the whole thing about "jobs have to be bursty for balance to be good" is complete nonsense, btw. it all comes down to how high the potency on their skills are and whether or not the fights have a lot of downtime in-between damage windows

a burst oriented job will deal more damage in a fight where the boss is invulnerable for 30s every 2minutes, but other than that it's just a matter of tuning the numbers.
on the flip side, a sustained dmg job would end up dealing more damage than a burst oriented job in a situation where raid buffs are absent (like if you made a raid group with 2 SAMs, a BLM and a MCH) but situations like that aren't very realistic

lastly: a job being bursty doesn't mean it has the same playstyle as another. if they reduced the potency on PLDs physical gcds and massively increased the potency on the magical side, the job would become a lot more bursty without having a single change in their rotation

PS: i've played MMOs where the devs prioritized "uniqueness" over performance (GW2 and several WoW expansions) and there's nothing fun about being denied group invites due to your class being underpowered

GW2 was even funnier because the game's hardest content was so easy a streamer managed to clear with a raid of lvl 78 characters (lvl cap is 80) and people STILL deny invites to players on underpowered classes

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Considering how similar all of the tanks play and the difficultly level of playing them is similar, their DPS should be similar. My hotbars for 2 tanks are nearly the identical ( WAR and PLD ). GNB is almost the same as WAR with a few differences. Same with PLD really. DRK is the only one that is setup fairly differently, but that might just be because I play it the least so it feels different to me. Maybe it is more similar to the other tanks than I realize.

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I'm sorry but no lol. Yeah they all have a 123 they constantly do (every melee wielding job does this), but WAR and GNB don't play the same at all. The only two tanks that really play similarly are WAR and DRK.

Yes I think 4% is a "big difference" I never said they couldn't fix it, I was never against "Job balance" I'm against the idea that only dps matters when it comes to balancing jobs such as tanks, Dark Knight is generally a messy Job in need of a rework personally, it's so powerful in raid situations yet such a underwhelming design that doesn't even fit for the jobs identity, right now it's in great need of a rework and it needs a different GCD rotation from warrior. 11% is too much even if a tank was considerably stronger in defence, I will agree with that

Theirs also "nothing fun" about making jobs more and more similar to the point theirs actually no Interesting "meta" in the game, FF14 generally hasn't had "balance issues" just less viable jobs, P8S isn't a great example (I know a lot of people use it as one that ff14 is imbalanced, must fix) because it wasn't even intended to have a dps check that bad, In general despite classes being weaker they've been pretty well viable in a lot of content, "different rotations" only mean so much with how Jobs like casters work, you cannot balance casters based on changing rotation alone, a lot of them have different movement, Utility and mobility and only focusing on "DPS balance" ignores that.

This is the same with tanks, to a degree right now arguably Dark Knight and Gunbreaker are generally way too strong compared to PLD in defensive kit and DPS, I don't think the solution is purely to boost PLD's dps blindly, they need a bit more to have a comfortable spot in the meta, but I do not really want PLD to become the new "DPS TANK" to beat DRK/GNB it's never been PLD's Job identity to have high damage, it's supposed to be the "support/defensive" tank, it should be slightly behind in terms of DPS and offer actual benefits outside of that, theirs always been a consistency with PLD bringing more defensive raidwides, while they're not "required" they do definitely help in a learning and progression situation. I'm actually hopeful they will fix PLD's issues now they're adding a new/old defensive to the class, to hopefully make it stronger in it's actual identity as the "shield tank"

Burst Jobs limit job design as a whole, it makes every job feel very similar when they're all weaving big hitters into 120 windows and going back to build up phase, it allows for some uniqueness, sure you can have room for different jobs, but a lot of Jobs also feel pretty samey due to the changes, you can't really have Jobs that have multiple bursts anymore

Balance is important but FF14 never really has had major struggles in balance, in general all jobs have remained viable, some people will go with the meta, as long as a job is 1% ahead people will pick it for the meta, I don't think that will ever change, we should embrace uniqueness and Job identity but also consider what's balanced for a healthy game, theirs no point in new jobs if they're all reskins that play slightly differently but have the same function.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Theirs also "nothing fun" about making jobs more and more similar to the point theirs actually no Interesting "meta" in the game,

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Bro I think you're too invested in an argument that's not being fought, not by the other guy anyways. They very clearly said you can make jobs play very different, yet have them perform very similarly (this is in reference to damage since that's what really matters in these fights). So they aren't advocating for jobs to play the same. They advocating for them to do similar damage numbers, which they proved can and is being done to an extent, just not with tanks, which is a problem.

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Originally Posted by Oextra

Bro I think you're too invested in an argument that's not being fought, not by the other guy anyways. They very clearly said you can make jobs play very different, yet have them perform very similarly (this is in reference to damage since that's what really matters in these fights). So they aren't advocating for jobs to play the same. They advocating for them to do similar damage numbers, which they proved can and is being done to an extent, just not with tanks, which is a problem.

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Ok so how do you suppose you make summoner and black mage with their current designs do the same damage and it be fair to BLM?

I'm pretty sure they argued earlier that tanks/healers should have no meaningful difference and the only differences between jobs should be rotation based.

okay you seem hell bent on the idea that balanced dps = jobs have to play the same despite all the examples i gave of very different jobs having very similar dmg, so i'm just going to leave a final example and be done with it:

DRK and WAR are two tanks that play very similarly, yet their damage is 11% apart from each other
PLD and WAR are two tanks that play very differently, yet their damage is 1% apart from each other

and as it was explained by others, dps is pretty much most important thing in balancing this game due to how encounters are designed.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Ok so how do you suppose you make summoner and black mage with their current designs do the same damage and it be fair to BLM?

I'm pretty sure they argued earlier that tanks/healers should have no meaningful difference and the only differences between jobs should be rotation based.

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if anything it'd be more accurate to compare BLM to SAM and MCH, since they're the jobs that don't have raid buffs and are therefore responsible for converting those buffs into potency for the group. (and from what i've seen, MCH players aren't too happy about their current standing)

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Originally Posted by Melethron123

okay you seem hell bent on the idea that balanced dps = jobs have to play the same despite all the examples i gave of very different jobs having very similar dmg, so i'm just going to leave a final example and be done with it:

DRK and WAR are two tanks that play very similarly, yet their damage is 11% apart from each other
PLD and WAR are two tanks that play very differently, yet their damage is 1% apart from each other

and as it was explained by others, dps is pretty much most important thing in balancing this game due to how encounters are designed.

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I didn't ever say that "balanced jobs = jobs have to play the same" I'm saying it's not "easy" to do or we wouldn't have DPS imbalance in the first place, I'm also saying only balancing by DPS numbers isn't even good in the first place, If people picked jobs only for total raid damage then it really makes no sense why a Mobile/utility caster like summoner would get way more people using it over Black mage, theirs actually reasons outside damage that make a good Job.

Also with DRK VS WAR, war is generally 1. Easier to pick up 2. Has more sustain and the best invul in the game, but of course it matters less this tier and DRKS general defensive kit is more suited for this current tier, so I'd hope the gap between the two would be closed as both have very different defensive/utility already, I'm fine with them moving warrior a bit more inline with other tanks but it shouldn't be ahead of the others.

While yes DPS is important it isn't always the be all and end all, most people play support jobs for firstly a different support kit from one another.

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Originally Posted by Melethron123

if anything it'd be more accurate to compare BLM to SAM and MCH, since they're the jobs that don't have raid buffs and are therefore responsible for converting those buffs into potency for the group. (and from what i've seen, MCH players aren't too happy about their current standing)

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No machinist should never compare to casters or melee, if MCH did the same damage as BLM them their would be no reason to play BLM outside a percent buff, compare casters to casters, it's fairly well known BLM does more then SMN/RDM even considering both raid buffs SMN/RDM give.

there's nothing stopping you from bringing 2 ranged or 2 casters to a raid. the reason why people bring 2 melee is, as often, more damage.

also: why wouldn't people bring BLM if MCH dealt the same damage throughout the fight?

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Originally Posted by Melethron123

there's nothing stopping you from bringing 2 ranged or 2 casters to a raid. the reason why people bring 2 melee is, as often, more damage.

PS: with you saying MCH would take BLM raid spot in the group if they dealt the same dmg you seem to understand that BLM is competing for a spot with MCH and SAM rather than SMN and RDM...

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If MCH and phys ranged in general did similar numbers to melee jobs then it would pretty much be 2 phys ranged, 1 melee and 1 caster... You don't see 1 Melee, BLM & RDM/SMN that often but you will see 2melee and SMN/RDM often despite BLM having very similar output to melee Because blm is a much more difficult job to work around and it's less mobile, almost like mobility is a actual reason to take a job.

Again if damage mattered so much over utility, ease of use and mobility, people wouldn't bring summoner way more often then a BLM, theirs cases where damage isn't the be all end all, as long as you can beat enrage comfortably with your current comp it's really not that important.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Again if damage mattered so much over utility, ease of use and mobility, people wouldn't bring summoner way more often then a BLM, theirs cases where damage isn't the be all end all, as long as you can beat enrage comfortably with your current comp it's really not that important.

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i'm a bit sleep-deprived this week (baby) so my memory is a little fuzzy, but did i say in any of my posts that damage is the only thing that matters when it comes to bringing a job to a raid? from what i remember, i said "utility doesn't matter much for performance, since encounters have to be designed around the group comp with the lowest utility, and therefore those 'unique' abilities go to waste, like cover."

to clarify my thoughts on the subject: having more damage will make an encounter easier than having more special utilities. that's because of the reasons already cited. that doesn't mean people will always bring the jobs that have the highest damage, for the simple fact that people would rather play the jobs they find more fun as long as it doesn't put too much of a strain on their group.
so the reason why people bring SMN over BLM can simply be "because my static member finds it more fun and we can still clear just fine with our comp"

on the other hand, if MCH dealt the same dmg as BLM, the reason to play BLM could simply be "because i find it more fun". There are plenty of people on the forums, on reddit, and on youtube who are constantly complaining about jobs being simple and wanting more complexity, so they'd be happy to play a more difficult job just for the sake of having more difficulty

i'd never claim "people won't play jobs that do less damage" because i can see very clearly that there are people clearing savage and DSR on MCH and PLD. fewer than DNC and DRK, but they're there nonetheless.

the real issue when it comes to dps balancing is this: if the weaker raid comps and the stronger raid comps have a significant difference in performance between them, the encounters will either be too difficult for the weaker comps or too easy for the stronger comps.
what happened this tier was a very good showcase of that. the devs couldn't be bothered to test the raid on weaker jobs, which means they tuned it too highly at release and people who played said weaker jobs ended up having a much more difficult boss than intended.

xenos posted a video talking about how much his group struggled to meet the DPS check while he was playing warrior, and as soon as he switched to GNB they were able to pass even on a pull where he got 2 damage downs. (if you're curious, the name of the video is "ff14 balance is the worst it has been in years")