Since Deep Dungeon gonna come back in EW, let's revise the queuing system

As I read that EW will have another Deep Dungeon, here is some thoughts I have about the current system.



Deep dungeons would've been more fun to do with random people if it is not for the disastrous queuing system.


What's the problem with the queue system?


1) Extremely inflexible queue system. For PoTD, to do casual run where story matters from 1-100, you have 10 different layer of queuing: 1-10, 11-20, 21-30... to 91-100. To get a run of 30-40, you have to get 3 players who are also running a save of floor 30-40, which can take a while. You cannot even ask you friends to help if they don't have a save that accesses to floor 30-40.


HoH also share the same problem, but the story floors only 1-30, hence 3 layers, so it is easier to handle.



2) Players have zero incentive to re-run story floors with strangers. Once they get to floor 50-60 in PoTD and 20-30 in HoH, these are the floors they will live and die fighting to grind EXP/currency. Players who like doing a full run will either solo or have a static because they cannot go beyond story-related floors with random players.


3) Roundabout queue. To queue for PoTD/HoH, you have to visit specific NPCs. In case you have to cancel queuing then re-queue, you have to revisit the same NPC again. It is minor problem, but still a pain in the ass.


All of these problems result in extremely long queue for story-enjoyers if they are unlucky. It is also difficult to ask for help cuz how the queue layers complex things.

90% of the game has already been made easy for story enjoyers ^^"
I don't think there needs to be any story to begin with myself, just a short quest to unlock it, that might fix issues.
I surely don't remember HoH's storyline.

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Originally Posted by Wolwosh

90% of the game has already been made easy for story enjoyers ^^"
I don't think there needs to be any story to begin with myself, just a short quest to unlock it, that might fix issues.
I surely don't remember HoH's storyline.

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I mean queueing is kind of an issue. Not finding people isn't "difficulty", it's a testament that the content is pretty dead. If it weren't for roulettes, much content would be like this, too.

A DD roulette would fix this, though.

Just don't require a hoh level first.

I can't do hoh because I need 50 potd and I can't solo that high. Queue for lower levels is atrocious. I need to farm aetherpool before I can go higher and survive and it's dumb.

I just want to skip 60-70 dungeon leveling damn it.

Party finder a group of 4 and set aside 1-2 hours for 1-50.

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Originally Posted by Imora

I can't do hoh because I need 50 potd and I can't solo that high. Queue for lower levels is atrocious. I need to farm aetherpool before I can go higher and survive and it's dumb.

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I'd ask around in your FC or any social linkshells you're on or, heck, even just ask in /say standing around in Quarrymill. I ran into two folks in Quarrymill who had been trying to make it to 50 as a duo and failing a while back; I partied up with them for a fixed group, and we blasted through floors 1-50 in under two hours flat.

Now, to be fair, as someone who does run deep dungeons solo seriously (the Necromancer title will be mine, eventually...), I know the Palace really, really well. And my aetherpool is maxed. But still, 1-50 is demonstrably quickly doable with two folks with good aetherpool (I do Palace with a friend sometimes as a duo), or three folks where two have lousy aetherpool and one is maxed.

And those of us crazy enough to actually run deep dungeons routinely are usually willing to help.

No one wants to do below 50 be it's inefficient. It'd take That long just to form the group and I don't have time to spend four to give hours grinding out 50.

Just don't make a prior level requirement to unlock. Solved.

Quing for the deep dive without being in quarrymill would be possible, IF there was only one "save slot".
Think carefully about what that means giving up.

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Originally Posted by Imora

I can't do hoh because I need 50 potd and I can't solo that high.

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You dont need to solo. You can join with randoms from level 1 to layers up to level 50.

Maybe try traveling to a Crystal DC, wh ere there's people starting up on their PoTD, that way you dont have to grind for hours

I just want them to remove the auto-fail on d/c if you're going in solo.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

I mean queueing is kind of an issue. Not finding people isn't "difficulty", it's a testament that the content is pretty dead. If it weren't for roulettes, much content would be like this, too.

A DD roulette would fix this, though.

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There doesn't even need to be a roulette...just let us queue for a deep dungeon without actually having to directly visit the NPC. It's one of the reasons I only do POTD in short spurts because it pretty much prevents me from doing anything else.

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Originally Posted by Imora

No one wants to do below 50 be it's inefficient. It'd take That long just to form the group and I don't have time to spend four to give hours grinding out 50.

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Sure, 50 is inefficient if you're using it for leveling, but again: there are plenty of people out there willing to take folks through PotD if they're having trouble finding people. I know this because I am one of them, and have done so before. It's not about efficiency, it's about getting someone past that milestone so they can start at 51 and use it to level for themselves -- or so that they've got a solid grounding in the deep dungeon (and some aetherpool) if they want to seriously tackle a run at the end floor.

I mean, I'm not on your server, so maybe I'm wrong about whether or not there's folks there who are willing. But I suspect that if you dropped a /say in Quarrymill among folks standing around there to ask if anyone was interested in helping you get to floor 50 in PotD -- or on your server's Novice Network, or whatever else -- you might be surprised at how readily some folks will volunteer to help.

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Originally Posted by Limecat

I just want them to remove the auto-fail on d/c if you're going in solo.

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Too easy to abuse

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

Sure, 50 is inefficient if you're using it for leveling, but again: there are plenty of people out there willing to take folks through PotD if they're having trouble finding people. I know this because I am one of them, and have done so before. It's not about efficiency, it's about getting someone past that milestone so they can start at 51 and use it to level for themselves -- or so that they've got a solid grounding in the deep dungeon (and some aetherpool) if they want to seriously tackle a run at the end floor.

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Maybe I can talk you into a run that would teach me how to get to 200? I've got the+99/+99 but I've never had a run get past 170

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

Maybe I can talk you into a run that would teach me how to get to 200? I've got the+99/+99 but I've never had a run get past 170

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Honestly, sure! I'm happy to put together a group to run it all the way to 200 once more. It's not like I'm not often in deep dungeons anyway; I actually have a standing group (named "Will Tank Floor", or "WTF") that I co-founded and run deep dungeons with on the regular.

That said, I'd need to talk to a friend first (the other driving force behind WTF) because both my PotD slots are taken right now and my alt doesn't have 99/99 aetherpool; one save slot is my current solo attempt, and the other is taken up by a duo run with said friend. However, I think he's planning to wipe that slot to start his next solo attempt soon anyway, in which case I've got a save slot free again and would be happy to put together a group to take a serious run at 200.

I will note that I do not recommend doing 51-200 all in one go; you'll be all deep dungeoned out by the time you hit the later floors and get careless, and that has spelled an end to more than one run. I like to come at 171+ in a fresh session so that there's no carelessness. Or at least, theoretically less carelessness.

There's also some general good practices for a serious run: a marching order is a big one, in my opinion. WTF usually goes with tank, healer, DPS, and if there's a SMN -- or with HoH, an RDM -- they are in the back. That way, if the tank (or healer) trips a trap, the party isn't all grouped up together and hit all at once -- and having the second rez at the back of the train means a chance to get folks back up if they're not smacked by a trap.

We got overconfident on one palace run and our marching order became sloppy, to the point we were running along in a little cluster... and the tank (me) stepped on a landmine mid-battle and blew us all up on floor 189. It was a sadface moment.

Edit: Talked to the friend, he's good with clearing the slot. :)

The trick is actually catching eachother in the game, heh. *tosses you into playersearch and lets it run*

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

I mean queueing is kind of an issue. Not finding people isn't "difficulty", it's a testament that the content is pretty dead. If it weren't for roulettes, much content would be like this, too.

A DD roulette would fix this, though.

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Roulettes are not the solution to everything, this especially. Expert Roulette might start with two dungeons, but there's not such a huge difference between them like PotD and HoH. This idea overlooks the fact that you have to be in the right zone to enter.

Party Finder and discord are the way to go for this.

On that note, I second the idea of not trying PotD 50-200 in one go. It's 7+ hours. It wears you down.
Find some people to work out a schedule with.

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Originally Posted by Nanne

Too easy to abuse

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with all the hacks and tools some ppl use, that doesnt matter at all.... in the end you still gotta clear on your own.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

The trick is actually catching eachother in the game, heh. *tosses you into playersearch and lets it run*

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FWIW, I'm Pacific time; I'll probably be in game in another two hours when I'm done with work. I'll try to catch you then. :)

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Roulettes are not the solution to everything, this especially. Expert Roulette might start with two dungeons, but there's not such a huge difference between them like PotD and HoH. This idea overlooks the fact that you have to be in the right zone to enter.

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FWIW, while I agree with you entirely on this, I will say I think there could be a place for something akin to a deep-dungeon-specific roulette. For instance, add an option to talk to the Wood Wailer Expeditionary Captain in Quarrymill where in addition to picking one of your specific saves, once you've gotten past level 50 in PotD you have a new option in the list that just says "aid another adventurer", and then you'd be matched into whatever matched group for PotD still needed people. You wouldn't have to be on that specific 10-floor set and it wouldn't take up a save slot, but it would sure help folks trying to get to 50 -- or 100 -- find a group more easily.

You could unlock a similar option for HoH once you've passed floor 30 there.

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Originally Posted by Nanne

Too easy to abuse

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Not really. They simply have to do so that your character still stays in that one place. So if you are hit by monsters and DC your body will still die and thus the run ends when you log back in.

But if you are staying in a safe place when you get a DC you will have at least a chance when you come back.

@Topic: I am fine with most of the systems for the Deep Dungeon. My two biggest wishes are:
- No automatic death when you DC as solo player
- More safe slots. Right now I have both of my safe slots used for the duo runs a friend and I do. Which means that I have no chance to try it out solo until we are done with those. At least give us three slots.

I would love a roulette. The current system where you have to find someone else on the same set of floors or wait in the queue forever is flawed and inefficient. And it's not just about story enjoyers. Sometimes you're going there for something (I'm looking at you timeworns) and you've seen the last you can stand seeing of 51-60. So you try traveling up from the start or try to go on to higher floors just for something different. And you wait until you're old and grey before you finally throw in the towel and just go back to 51-60. They could even help with the chest skipping hurting those who are looking for aetherpool by having each run give you a guaranteed skill up in both arms and armor. That would also serve to make it very attractive to run.

If they want to keep the current system, by the Twelve, they have to give us more save slots.

Also, yes, don't let a DC in a safe spot count against solo runs.

You're missing the point of Deep Dungeon if you think roulette will help in any way.

You can only start a group from so deep into the dungeon.
You still have to come back with those same people and jobs to continue.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

You're missing the point of Deep Dungeon if you think roulette will help in any way.

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It depends on what you want it to help. Let's take PotD as an example, and have a roulette that will let you end up on any sub-100 set of ten floors that you've cleared.

For folks who only care about getting from 1-50 (to finish the initial story), a roulette would help because if they're doing matched runs -- which is pretty common -- a roulette would make that much faster. I could wander to Quarrymill, hit "Aid a fellow adventurer." and poof, I show up to help whoever is trying to run palace.

For those who care about getting the second part of the story -- e.g., getting to 100 -- then I think the roulette will also help; you already can do matched groups from 51-100, it's just that no one does for anything except 51-60. Meaning the chances that someone is queued for matched for the same set of ten floors at 61 or higher that you're trying to queue for is vanishingly small; after floor 60, you almost have to have a fixed party, not because the dungeon requires it but because otherwise your queue will never pop.

A roulette would help immensely with that.

Now, if you're talking specifically folks with a goal to clear the entire Palace, no, it won't help there; I'm told that past floor 100 you cannot do matched parties, only fixed. (I've never tried this, mind you, but that does sound like a thing they'd do with deep dungeons.) But honestly, I cannot imagine trying to do a serious deep dungeon run with a random matched party even if it did let you, because you would lose all your pomanders every ten floors; only fixed parties get to keep pomanders past a boss floor. And while in a group, pomanders are not really required for any of the sub-100 floors, the idea of facing some of the lowest floors on Palace -- the 181-190 set in particular -- without appropriate pomanders sends a cold chill down my spine.

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

with all the hacks and tools some ppl use, that doesnt matter at all.... in the end you still gotta clear on your own.

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I have never heard of any hacks being used to solo clear PotD :p You can't even teleport/speedhack there because even the normal interactions that can happen with knockbacks and transformations already cause anti cheat to kick you out ending your run :p

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

It depends on what you want it to help. Let's take PotD as an example, and have a roulette that will let you end up on any sub-100 set of ten floors that you've cleared.

For folks who only care about getting from 1-50 (to finish the initial story), a roulette would help because if they're doing matched runs -- which is pretty common -- a roulette would make that much faster. I could wander to Quarrymill, hit "Aid a fellow adventurer." and poof, I show up to help whoever is trying to run palace.

For those who care about getting the second part of the story -- e.g., getting to 100 -- then I think the roulette will also help; you already can do matched groups from 51-100, it's just that no one does for anything except 51-60. Meaning the chances that someone is queued for matched for the same set of ten floors at 61 or higher that you're trying to queue for is vanishingly small; after floor 60, you almost have to have a fixed party, not because the dungeon requires it but because otherwise your queue will never pop.

A roulette would help immensely with that.

Now, if you're talking specifically folks with a goal to clear the entire Palace, no, it won't help there; I'm told that past floor 100 you cannot do matched parties, only fixed. (I've never tried this, mind you, but that does sound like a thing they'd do with deep dungeons.) But honestly, I cannot imagine trying to do a serious deep dungeon run with a random matched party even if it did let you, because you would lose all your pomanders every ten floors; only fixed parties get to keep pomanders past a boss floor. And while in a group, pomanders are not really required for any of the sub-100 floors, the idea of facing some of the lowest floors on Palace -- the 181-190 set in particular -- without appropriate pomanders sends a cold chill down my spine.

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Yeah 101+ is fixed party only. A roulette would be 1 to 100 and like you said, would drop you into a random set of floors just like any other roulette drops you where you're needed.

I'd just assume that if someone wants to clear PotD or HoH they need a static. Who would want to get to a certain floor just to fail with strangers and then start over? When I did HoH with a static, we found it difficult enough that it made sense to run it with other likeminded people.

I know you can get your 99 after many grinds and then pray to the RNGeus gods (particularly to hit 200) but.. that seems just okay to me lol. Not that Necromancer should become easy, but perhaps they could do something like another save slot - perhaps gamify it by having it unlocked via some achievement(s) or purchase from tokens in the content, faster aether collecting, disconnect protection (by holding the dungeon open for X time with your character goofing about)- perhaps even stronger protection via seed and pom saving which will allow you to stop floor after floor granularly and protect you from not being able to return within the time limit (but will still give a good 1 - 2 minute window to ensure you didn't try to disconnect mid fight to 'protect' your run and also so you can't fish for good floors by reading the memory of the floor), slight rebalancing for class value in late content or specific bosses (so you don't see guide after guide talking about how x y z classes are a big pain in the tailfeathers and impractical).

Still keeping Necro hard, just smoothing out some elements and helping people get there.

Would love to see like Azul Necromancer or something too (Blue Mage leaderboard and runs). They had that Battle Royale idea, and I think this might be an interesting opportunity too for rogue / rogue-lite/like mechanics too. Blue Mage being able to learn spells on the fly with some coming as consumable quantities, pick up spells from chests / ground, end of each floor and at boss fights, etc. Spells might be tweaks for more fun / logical value, but just like I said with Battle Royale .. IF the change to the spell is really cool and fun.. Keep it! Put it back into the normal blue (sans consumable concept). This way you can justify investing more time in any Blue Spells and concepts (including old ones). The -lite / like part could be you can unlock specific spells to kit out your job, like 5 core spell slots (and you can unlock X options), and then the rest you earn as you go. Again another really cool part of this could be allowing blue mages another fun way to earn weird spells- like the ones that don't really provide themselves a good way to learn solo (let's say you wanted to let Blue Mages learn a raid boss spell for example).

The tangent desire aside, certainly improving queues to provide longer life to content is always welcome :).

The moment content requires external applications like discord, forums or any other "external site" I consider it a bit of fail in design.


Like for a moment, lets consider this on any other type of content in the game:
"Ah Ivalice raids you say? Just join "Ivalice Akademy" linkshell and discord! Then setup group for it over the weekend. They usually raid ivalice every 2nd weekend because low numbers and vetarans already having all glamour.. But if you're lucky just setup PF and you might find some people!"

That would be absurd

Yet, this already happens with Bozja Castrum, Delubrum, Eureka later parts (specially BA). Not to mention whole Rival Wings thing.

I mean I sorta understand BA, seeing its actually "niche HC content" and 2 expansions old now. But POTD 11-49? HOH? Bozja Castrum? .. eh?

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Originally Posted by InkB

The moment content requires external applications like discord, forums or any other "external site" I consider it a bit of fail in design.

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Its a problem in some data centers and not in all of them :p

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Originally Posted by InkB

The moment content requires external applications like discord, forums or any other "external site" I consider it a bit of fail in design

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It doesn't require it at all, but it definitely makes like easier. It's not uncommon either. These sites have always been a thing because an MMO can only provide so much to facilitate communications. If they were to have things like in-game voice chat, it would be so much more to maintain. It would be a bigger money sink dragging them further down and forcing them to look at charging more. (MMOs have had the same subscription rate for over 20 years now, while everything gets more inflated.)

It's not a design failure. It's focusing on what matters by focusing on the game content. Why should they bother with comms services when something like discord exists?

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

It doesn't require it at all, but it definitely makes like easier. It's not uncommon either. These sites have always been a thing because an MMO can only provide so much to facilitate communications. If they were to have things like in-game voice chat, it would be so much more to maintain. It would be a bigger money sink dragging them further down and forcing them to look at charging more. (MMOs have had the same subscription rate for over 20 years now, while everything gets more inflated.)

It's not a design failure. It's focusing on what matters by focusing on the game content. Why should they bother with comms services when something like discord exists?

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Voicechat is not my point...

I meant that to get into content in-game, thats not savage static, you shouldnt need external programs or sites to connect with like-minded communities to be able to do it at all.

Example; There shouldnt be any need to join discord community to be able to run thro Bozja content. The bozja story requires you to do Castrum and Del - but barely anyone does them because castrum is "not optimal EXP/Hour for my reaper leveling!!" or whatever. And Del gives no rewards at all unless you do relic. Sure, its not MSQ and its optional. But even then.
You join discord community who semi-regulary do pre-made runs for Castrum etc. Otherwise you might not be able to run one for weeks or at all if you end up in "wrong instance"

Or another bizarre example.. Rival Wings. They spend lot of time making that PvP mode only to remove one of the maps AND never put it on any type of roulette or part of FL roulette pool. To play this mode you basically had to rely on "community-run events on weekends" with specific times. You dont need discord to know when its up but if you have need to advertise days before the event to do regular in-game content I find it bit .. bad?

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Originally Posted by InkB

Voicechat is not my point...

I meant that to get into content in-game, thats not savage static, you shouldnt need external programs or sites to connect with like-minded communities to be able to do it at all.

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I know what you meant and that's a very narrow view of things. I refer back to my main point on communication. In the presence of all these ways to communicate, it shouldn't fall on the game designer to spend time and energy on such things. When those areas first came out, it definitely wasn't needed. It's inevitable that things settle down for areas like bozja, which is why they've moved away from it. It would have been even worse if they had decided to make yet another battlefield, but they saw that it would take people away and they truly would have wasted all that development time on short lived content. Bozja still has plenty of incentives to get people in there. Eureka still sees plenty of use.

I don't see anything wrong with using external tools to find info or people, but again, I'm just used to it. There's only so much to be done, especially when you have all these connected Worlds and now connected Data Centers. That's one of the best things they have going for getting content done. There was none of that in past games. You HAD to do your content when it came out and before the level cap increased or that was pretty much it.

The queue system for that content relies heavily on individual progression of said content, if they made it anymore flexible, it'd break the system and make it unplayable for those that aren't ready for the higher floors, plus since Story is attached- you know, spoilers.

EDIT: plus this really is a non-issue, the only reason queues are slower right now is because of the content lull and a lot of the WoW players we got in that super influx ran back to WoW recently because of classic WoTLK.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

I know what you meant and that's a very narrow view of things. I refer back to my main point on communication. In the presence of all these ways to communicate, it shouldn't fall on the game designer to spend time and energy on such things. When those areas first came out, it definitely wasn't needed. It's inevitable that things settle down for areas like bozja, which is why they've moved away from it. It would have been even worse if they had decided to make yet another battlefield, but they saw that it would take people away and they truly would have wasted all that development time on short lived content. Bozja still has plenty of incentives to get people in there. Eureka still sees plenty of use.

I don't see anything wrong with using external tools to find info or people, but again, I'm just used to it. There's only so much to be done, especially when you have all these connected Worlds and now connected Data Centers. That's one of the best things they have going for getting content done. There was none of that in past games. You HAD to do your content when it came out and before the level cap increased or that was pretty much it.

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I'm not sure you get what I'm saying. Discord and the likes should not be used as queue system or fix to one. For community and communication? Yes 100%!

I consider queue-system fail if you have to download seperate app, join specific server (you might not know about unless you ask around), use the chat there, wait for people, setup group, setup date or hour when you wanna do it or wait for grand event that might or might not happen once a week.

You can queue in-game for Bozja's Del, but you need to be next to the NPC. The queue will forcefully start Del after certain amount of time no matter how many people get in. Sometimes its 2. Sometimes 4 if lucky. Thats why you either join discord or setup PF. PF might work but ive seen one PF be up for hours with just 2 people.

You can queue to POTD/HOH 11-50, but you have to go to NPC and have save for those floors so you will never know what floors are needed by someone going thro them first time, for example. I'd love to help people go thro 11-50 but it would take hours to do all 40 floors.. lemme just press button and be thrown into something like 31-40 and help people out while getting something small in return.

For POTD and HOH i'd say at least add them to duty finder as "random floor" option. Dont have to be roulette. Or heck, add them to mentor roulette.