Delete Ninja from PvP

This class is not balanced for any 1v1.

It's not a melee it's a ranged job.
The entire class needs to rebalanced and reworked as in the current form it should just be illegal and there needs to be a wall build between every non-ninja and ninja.
You should not be able to duel a ninja, you just should not win.

CC with ninja should just be 5 ninja's versus 5 ninja's.
it is not balanced, it's lb is broken, the movement speed they get is stupid.
The shields they get is stupid.
The dot they have is too strong as I said before it's not a ranged job it is supposed to be a melee, why does it have a dot in the first place.

I agree, like everytime I'm facing a ninja in a ranked CC match, I go like "Ugh here we go again with that broken LB that will just mess us up at some point".

Don't think there is anything inherently wrong with ninja having good damage at a range. Classifications don't matter as much in PvP. Ninja is good at indirect fighting, because it's not as good at direct confrontation, compared to something like GNB, MNK, or RPR.

That said, I do think the LB, like MNK's, can be a bit extreme at times. Sometimes the burst damage in CC is frustrating and this kind of exacerbates that. Think some of the outliers have to be examined by the developer, but I think general damage should stay high so fights still reach a conclusion.

I would argue that NIN is pretty balanced where it is currently at. The LB generation is fine as well for what it does, given that it comes up roughly the same time as most other jobs. NIN's LB requires coordination to an extent, unlike LB's like MNK, which builds up incredibly fast, removes guard, animation locks the target, and has a high chance of immediately removing enemy players from group fights; a similar case is presented in MCH, where the LB doesn't build as fast but can remove a player immediately from a fight with certain combos, much like MNK. It is a ranged MNK. I'm not even going to start on the 3% rate of chainsaw insta-kill - rework this.

NIN is not as strong as a bruiser as other melee DPS like RPR, DRG, and to an extent, SAM, and MNK, so its position as a melee DPS is unique to its play-style is rather balanced for how it is played; it is a situational class. The shield you get from Huton has an opportunity cost as the mudra you use for the shield could have been used for a more offensive option, so having defensive options like Huton or Meisui is fair.

As far as DoTs go Goka is balanced as you trade upfront damage or stun for a 12-second DoT, so the pressure and threat from using it is slow and not immediate, and is, therefore, more recoverable. On the other hand, whilst it has its uses to bait purifies, I would say that Doton needs a rework as its current usage is almost non-existent; not only because of its low potency but its fixed placement (which you can't move around like SGE's LB), and therefore Hollow Nozuchi not having that much of an advantage to Goka. In almost any context, you are better off using Goka compared to Doton, just because of the niche context where Doton can/should be used (e.g. in overtime), so this needs to be looked at and reworked.

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Originally Posted by Twooty

I would argue that NIN is pretty balanced where it is currently at. The LB generation is fine as well for what it does, given that it comes up roughly the same time as most other jobs. NIN's LB requires coordination to an extent, unlike LB's like MNK, which builds up incredibly fast, removes guard, animation locks the target, and has a high chance of immediately removing enemy players from group fights; a similar case is presented in MCH, where the LB doesn't build as fast but can remove a player immediately from a fight with certain combos, much like MNK. It is a ranged MNK. I'm not even going to start on the 3% rate of chainsaw insta-kill - rework this.

NIN is not as strong as a bruiser as other melee DPS like RPR, DRG, and to an extent, SAM, and MNK, so its position as a melee DPS is unique to its play-style is rather balanced for how it is played; it is a situational class. The shield you get from Huton has an opportunity cost as the mudra you use for the shield could have been used for a more offensive option, so having defensive options like Huton or Meisui is fair.

As far as DoTs go Goka is balanced as you trade upfront damage or stun for a 12-second DoT, so the pressure and threat from using it is slow and not immediate, and is, therefore, more recoverable. On the other hand, I would say that Doton needs a rework as its current usage is almost non-existent, not only because of its low potency but its fixed placement (which you can't move around like SGE's LB), and therefore Hollow Nozuchi not having that much of an advantage to Goka. In almost any context, you are better off using Goka compared to Doton, so this needs to be looked at and reworked.

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It's funny how this troll post actually made you respond to it x)

:hmmPhone:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...8/HmmPhone.png

In FL it's the only DPS that actually can prevent tanks diving 1vs24 and get away full HP, so big nope until SE fixes the new 60% + passive defense.

remove MCH instead

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

remove MCH instead

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Got hit by that 3% chance? I'm asking because that is the only thing current MCH can do to get a kill

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Got hit by that 3% chance? I'm asking because that is the only thing current MCH can do to get a kill

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There are plenty of ways to kill someone as MCH. There are bursts that pretty much cannot be survived if Guard isn't up :p

I've seen Ninjas always reaching max in their rank on Frontlines very quickly, and they're almost nearly impossible to defeat.

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Originally Posted by Nanne

There are plenty of ways to kill someone as MCH. There are bursts that pretty much cannot be survived if Guard isn\\'t up :p

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Not anymore in FL. You can dump your entire kit including a LB onto someone and unless it's a 0BH healer, they'll probably survive if they know how to use Recuperate. Especially so if it's a tank, or extra damage tank (melee)

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Originally Posted by Nanne

There are plenty of ways to kill someone as MCH. There are bursts that pretty much cannot be survived if Guard isn't up :p

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Sure there is. You can hit them with Drill when they are sub-20%, or AA when they are sub-25%, or your LB when they are sub-30%, or you LB + AA or Drill when they are sub 50%. Or if you are on AA you might be able to kill them if they are sub-60% if you AA+Saw+LB if, and only if they are too slow to use a Recup between the GCDs.

One thing is for sure. You are not going to 100-0 anyone, ever, unless they are afk.

1.)Remove all jobs except WHM
2.)Make Limit Break into a Fan AOE
3.)wait for complaints about WHM being too powerful
4.)Profit?

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

remove MCH instead

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You still crying about McH lol

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

1.)Remove all jobs except WHM
2.)Make Limit Break into a Fan AOE
3.)wait for complaints about WHM being too powerful
4.)Profit?

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You discuss me but I love this post lol

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

I've seen Ninjas always reaching max in their rank on Frontlines very quickly, and they're almost nearly impossible to defeat.

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Because the ridiculous defense buff (60% for melee jobs and 30% for ranges iirc) turned everyone in to a Tank meanwhile guard makes things worse.

This happened because instead of nerfing SMN LB in FL SE for no logic reason decided to buff them even more until the current patch arrived making SMN completely useless I mean even if 5 bahamuths lands in your head you aren't going to lose more than 40% of your HP.

Current PVP FL wouldn't be a snore fest if guard don't reduce the incoming damage anymore and just protect you from CC.

Tanks (PLD/DRK) are so annoying l/unkilleable that abusing NIN it's the only way to stop them.

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Originally Posted by Nanne

There are plenty of ways to kill someone as MCH. There are bursts that pretty much cannot be survived if Guard isn't up :p

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Care to elaborate on this unstoppable and magical combo?

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Originally Posted by Ravenwatch

Care to elaborate on this unstoppable and magical combo?

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Wild fire drill(A) shotgun with the 2hits easy
WF 2 tap LB easy
mortar bio (let them tic a bit) shot gun (if 50%) moderate
mortar bio heated shot air anchor hard since people can spam heal but if distracted it become a silent melter
drill(A) shotgun(dbl) LB easy if not many are around
chainsaw proc (Pray)

these are the ones I saw succeed at least could be some better ones out there

Anyone who says pvp is balanced has never played any other pvp ever. Sure its very fun but the balancing of the jobs is..i rather not use too strong of a word. You have ninja with 75% slow, 4s stunlock, execute untargeted mobility which means its also a disengange, self heal self shield with no condition/downside and ranged attacks and on the other side you have dark knight that kills itself to do actual dmg and gunbreaker that has...well nothing.

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Originally Posted by SenzorialBoundries

Anyone who says pvp is balanced has never played any other pvp ever. Sure its very fun but the balancing of the jobs is..i rather not use too strong of a word. You have ninja with 75% slow, 4s stunlock, execute untargeted mobility which means its also a disengange, self heal self shield with no condition/downside and ranged attacks and on the other side you have dark knight that kills itself to do actual dmg and gunbreaker that has...well nothing.

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You're not being too truthful. The slow, the stun, the self heal, the self shield, AND all the ranged attacks save for the shuriken are all Mudras. You can only use 2 of them at any given time, and in most cases you're not touching the slow, the heal, or the shield. You're touching either the ice daggers or the stun, because it's more important to KILL your target quickly. Hell, I'd argue that all the other Mudras are downright useless for that exact reason in CC.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

You're not being too truthful. The slow, the stun, the self heal, the self shield, AND all the ranged attacks save for the shuriken are all Mudras. You can only use 2 of them at any given time, and in most cases you're not touching the slow, the heal, or the shield. You're touching either the ice daggers or the stun, because it's more important to KILL your target quickly. Hell, I'd argue that all the other Mudras are downright useless for that exact reason in CC.

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You can hold a Mudra for 10secs and it has a 15sec CD, so just cast huton or meisui the last second and you can engage fights with a 16k shield that comes with a combat sprint or 4k potency regen, or give the regen to a teammate. NIN also doesn't have to focus on explicitly getting kills, doton on the point is a complete nuisance and a ranged AoE 4k DoT softens enemies up quite a bit. Let's not forget their fast charging LB that instantly kills anyone below 50%, also acts a gap closer and has a safety net in case you mess up.

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Originally Posted by Dreadz

You can hold a Mudra for 10secs and it has a 15sec CD, so just cast huton or meisui the last second and you can engage fights with a 16k shield that comes with a combat sprint or 4k potency regen, or give the regen to a teammate. NIN also doesn't have to focus on explicitly getting kills, doton on the point is a complete nuisance and a ranged AoE 4k DoT softens enemies up quite a bit. Let's not forget their fast charging LB that instantly kills anyone below 50%, also acts a gap closer and has a safety net in case you mess up.

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You're rarely going to find a lot of people on a point unless it's at the end of a match in overtime. It's also, IMO, a waste when that mudra could have gone to stunning somebody to allow your team to burn them down. In CC if you're not using your mudras to go for a kill, you're likely doing it wrong. Remember, a dead enemy is gone for around 15-20s (depending on distance from their spawn), which is long enough to turn the tide of battle in your favor. Whereas that Doton and Goka are not going to kill multiple enemies, and the time you're waiting for your mudras to return may have given them enough time to LB and turn the tide against your group.

As for the LB, it charges the same speed as the other melee DPS, but is weaker. Yes, it can 1-shot people under 50% health, but latency can and will mess you up here. If they heal before the move registers they went under 50%, it won't kill them and will do less damage than most of your attacks. If they kill you before the animation finishes, you will lose the LB and your target will live. If they stun/poly you in the middle of the LB, your animation won't go through and the target will live while you lose the LB. The LB has a lot of counters to it.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

You're rarely going to find a lot of people on a point unless it's at the end of a match in overtime. It's also, IMO, a waste when that mudra could have gone to stunning somebody to allow your team to burn them down. In CC if you're not using your mudras to go for a kill, you're likely doing it wrong. Remember, a dead enemy is gone for around 15-20s (depending on distance from their spawn), which is long enough to turn the tide of battle in your favor. Whereas that Doton and Goka are not going to kill multiple enemies, and the time you're waiting for your mudras to return may have given them enough time to LB and turn the tide against your group.

As for the LB, it charges the same speed as the other melee DPS, but is weaker. Yes, it can 1-shot people under 50% health, but latency can and will mess you up here. If they heal before the move registers they went under 50%, it won't kill them and will do less damage than most of your attacks. If they kill you before the animation finishes, you will lose the LB and your target will live. If they stun/poly you in the middle of the LB, your animation won't go through and the target will live while you lose the LB. The LB has a lot of counters to it.

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Don't get me wrong, I wasn't disagreeing with your initial point, I was just arguing against the claim that besides Raijuu and Hyosho, all the other ninjustu aren't worth using. They're situational sure, but using them well can be game savers, especially during overtime.

Regarding the LB, almost all of the problems you listed affect a ton of other job's LBs, I mean, you can die to MCH LB in the middle of DRG's LB. NIN's LB though, has a safety net, something no other LB has in the entire mode. So even if you get screwed over by the terrible tick rate, there's still a chance for you to recover AND the LB starts after the initial use, so can build LB while getting chain kills.

After investing enough time in this current PVP patch (Frontlines mostly) the Meisui +Huton combo needs to go completely its cancer, they enter in god mode and nothing will kill them, I saw Nins with barely any BH and they still get away even if they get locked in MNK LB twice and 4 people hitting them at the same time, the healing its too much that negates any burst damage.

Now Huton actually negates the Chain Saw 3% insta kill, if the NIN get hits while Huton its on CS only deals 32k damage (basically half of the nin HP) this not happen if MNK/Reaper have their defensive tools uptime.

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

Now Huton actually negates the Chain Saw 3% insta kill, if the NIN get hits while Huton its on CS only deals 32k damage (basically half of the nin HP) this not happen if MNK/Reaper have their defensive tools uptime.

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GOOD, that 3% insta kill needs to go die in a fire. Nobody likes a RNG insta-death ability in PvP.

If Huton blocks the shitty 3% chainsaw then I think they should give everyone huton all the time.

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Originally Posted by MrSigy

This class is not balanced for any 1v1.

It's not a melee it's a ranged job.
The entire class needs to rebalanced and reworked as in the current form it should just be illegal and there needs to be a wall build between every non-ninja and ninja.
You should not be able to duel a ninja, you just should not win.

CC with ninja should just be 5 ninja's versus 5 ninja's.
it is not balanced, it's lb is broken, the movement speed they get is stupid.
The shields they get is stupid.
The dot they have is too strong as I said before it's not a ranged job it is supposed to be a melee, why does it have a dot in the first place.

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I agree with everything you said.
I play Ninja in CC and I am too OP.
I can actually 1 shot people solo.
I am way too fast for my own good, I am so fast I can't even play the game myself as I hardly see where I'm going.
I only ever struggle against other Ninjas.
I actually won some matches with my eyes closed and while playing with me toes.
I am actually a ranged class, don't let anyone fool you.

I don't think Ninjas should be able to queue into CC at all.

Please forgive me whoever got KO'ed by me in CC.

I hope they rework it into something more entertaining than a shuriken chucking 50% health executioner. Make it a big bursty ambusher or something i dunno

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Originally Posted by Twooty

I would argue that NIN is pretty balanced where it is currently at. The LB generation is fine as well for what it does, given that it comes up roughly the same time as most other jobs. NIN's LB requires coordination to an extent, unlike LB's like MNK, which builds up incredibly fast, removes guard, animation locks the target, and has a high chance of immediately removing enemy players from group fights; a similar case is presented in MCH, where the LB doesn't build as fast but can remove a player immediately from a fight with certain combos, much like MNK. It is a ranged MNK. I'm not even going to start on the 3% rate of chainsaw insta-kill - rework this.

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The MCH LB burst is stellar, but it's not a one press button instant death either. You need to do certain combinations of abilities and initiate a proper setup that is highly sensitive to 1) a timeframe (like DRG LB) and 2) doesn't go through guard and can be totally wasted (like DRG LB).

The biggest LB setup is also the most cumbersome to use, you need to do a full wildfire sequence ending on Drill/Anchor + LB. Like the standard WF burst, it takes an LOT of preparation to do, and it's ultra sensitive to anything the target might do: remove LoS, or just guard at the proper time (once WF is about to explode, not at the beginning).

The slightly smaller but still deadly LB burst is harder to counter because it requires only one preparation shot after WF application, but again, it still requires the target to stay in LoS for the LB / WF explosion, and is again, sensitive to guard.

Then you have lighter WF setups which are just A. Drill/Anchor immediately followed by LB, pretty hard to counter because usually the LB is already initiated when you guard and there is no wildfire as a big telegraph. Those can be deadly, but they also sacrifice a lot of potency and the target can often survive pretty well unless they're out of resources and already chipped on health.

Overall if the enemy MCH has their LB ready, it's like any other jobs with similarly threatening LBs, you just watch them closely on the enemy party list, the same way you'd watch a SAM. I've very rarely been baited by a full MCH LB burst due to Wildfire being a huge warning to immediately LoS or guard, but I can understand that in the heat of the moment for a melee for example, it's easier to miss.

Ninja on the other hand, just has to find somebody with 50% HP or less, and it's a free kill with a button. There is literally no effort behind it whatsoever, and it's not like it's extremely hard to drop somebody to half HP either, be it with a team effort during a full skirmish, or on your own when you can already do a double fucking stun with Raiju.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

Sure there is. You can hit them with Drill when they are sub-20%, or AA when they are sub-25%, or your LB when they are sub-30%, or you LB + AA or Drill when they are sub 50%. Or if you are on AA you might be able to kill them if they are sub-60% if you AA+Saw+LB if, and only if they are too slow to use a Recup between the GCDs.

One thing is for sure. You are not going to 100-0 anyone, ever, unless they are afk.

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Full MCH LB burst is close to 75k ish potency. This will kill almost anybody unless they manage to sneak a recuperate, guard, or have mitigation up (barriers, damage reductions, etc). I've oneshot so many people, including tanks, that it can be disgusting, but it's also not a free one button sequence, it requires a setup. But yeah, MCH is actually a nasty tank killer, when tanks are too confident or don't want to give up on contesting a point.

Make a new gamemode called laser tag, make it to where any role can que but make it to where they are forced to have whm kit with bottomless LB.... watch the fun :)