I think I have the answer to the DPS add on dillemma

My solution is in the paragraph below this intro:

I thought about this while reading someone else's post. I agreed with them when they pointed out their history on WoW. My history is similar. I started playing wow with the fantasy-based and fun-loving mindset that I intended to play the game with from the beginning to get max enjoyment out of it. I did. I loved it. Made amazing lifelong friends while leveling. After approaching max level and even after being max level and seeing more and more horrible people on that game ruin it for everyone and blizzard desperately trying to come up with solutions at the time (this was their second expansion when blizzard was still almost completely the original blizzard), I took their attacks personal and made it a point that for years I will prove everyone wrong and never once lose top dps spot. I achieved that goal. I did lose number one spot a number of times in raids, but the point being, I was hailed in my guilds as being the unbeatable guy. I proved people's guide websites wrong. I killed their idols. I dethroned what they believed to be true in my quest to teach people by proxy on how futile it is to always try to put others down and rise above to achieve self-glory. I failed in realizing and accepting how big of a task that is to convince an entire global population of this one thing - how to be a good person and let the guy I used to be - the fun loving person who never cared once about "being the best" to play as I pleased, because there are countless others who would have loved to have been treated the same. I, and others, always have the same potential as anyone else no matter what, so to me, it is futile to put down on other players for any purpose at all. They can always do what you can do. Everyone should understand this on a deep level and learn how to get along with each other naturally - nevermore to compete and belittle someone else again over something so silly that only a select few do and should care about.

My solution: Why not add attack dummies that have a damage number show up on top of them when you attack them them to show your damage score, so you can measure yourself without the use of an add on, and when you click off of it, the game is still the same way it was as before - without the use of an add-on. This solves every problem argued except for the people who want to judge other people. In that case, perhaps make an entirely optional instance where you can measure yourself in different scenarios (standstill, aoe, bossfights, mix, etc) and show a score to somebody as well as a breakdown so those people can be satisfied, but let's not get too distracted. My simple idea is the attack dummy with a number that shows on top of it to display your performance. Let's choose that as the starting point, and add your ideas onto that further to see if that is acceptable.

Last comment: I, for one, do not care about damage numbers, and I wholeheartedly agree with Yoshi P on his stance concerning this, because I feel the same way. I believe he is using wisdom in guiding this game, and my ideas when I began WoW are those same ideas that he has towards ff14, except he is a developer of an MMO and I was just a player of one. Angering some demanding players is a small price to pay to ensure a healthy gaming experience for a larger majority. High-end raiding is difficult. Finding good groups for difficult content is also difficult. That is what makes the reward of completion so much more worth it. (I've been there!) Do not take it out on other players! We are all not to be subject to someone else's fantasy and desire on what they expect to get out of a game. Let everyone enjoy it how they will without interfering with others. We have to do this IRL, and we have to do this on an online social MMO.

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Originally Posted by b3nzyme

My solution: Why not add attack dummies that have a damage number show up on top of them when you attack them them to show your damage score, so you can measure yourself without the use of an add on, and when you click off of it, the game is still the same way it was as before - without the use of an add-on. This solves every problem argued except for the people who want to judge other people.

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This doesn't really solve any of the issues. I can do my rotation absolutely perfectly 100% against a target dummy. I can have a perfect parse there... because I don't have any distractions and I don't have to coordinate with other people.

The reason damage parsers are a useful tool for organized groups is simple: They give people information that is actually relevant to their progression. You need to know who is pulling their weight at each phase of the raid to know how people need to improve. Maybe Bob is really good during phases 1 and 2 but struggles at dps during phase 3... you won't find that out from some sort of a 'mock trial' because it probably won't have EXACTLY that phase 3. But a parsing tool will tell you. And thus you can work with Bob to figure out what is going wrong - is he just misreading the timings, is he attacking the wrong target, is he just getting stunned too often or whatever else might be going on. None of that is visible unless you see it DURING the fight.

The primary reason damage meters exist is not 'to judge people' - they exist as a tool for members of organized groups to determine where their individual weaknesses are so they can all improve to overcome the challenges and eventually beat the raid/dungeon/boss/trial/etc. That's why the first ones were created in older MMOs and why people keep creating more of them in new MMOs... because people need tools to measure how they're doing so that when they're not meeting enrage timers/damage checks they can accurately determine how to improve.

Yes, some people use them for bad reasons... but we don't just... remove everything that could ever be used for bad purposes because of that. Sometimes you need to have nice things for ordinary people and then just punish the people who misuse them.

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Originally Posted by Elesh

This doesn't really solve any of the issues. I can do my rotation absolutely perfectly 100% against a target dummy. I can have a perfect parse there... because I don't have any distractions and I don't have to coordinate with other people.

The reason damage parsers are a useful tool for organized groups is simple: They give people information that is actually relevant to their progression. You need to know who is pulling their weight at each phase of the raid to know how people need to improve. Maybe Bob is really good during phases 1 and 2 but struggles at dps during phase 3... you won't find that out from some sort of a 'mock trial' because it probably won't have EXACTLY that phase 3. But a parsing tool will tell you. And thus you can work with Bob to figure out what is going wrong - is he just misreading the timings, is he attacking the wrong target, is he just getting stunned too often or whatever else might be going on. None of that is visible unless you see it DURING the fight.

The primary reason damage meters exist is not 'to judge people' - they exist as a tool for members of organized groups to determine where their individual weaknesses are so they can all improve to overcome the challenges and eventually beat the raid/dungeon/boss/trial/etc. That's why the first ones were created in older MMOs and why people keep creating more of them in new MMOs... because people need tools to measure how they're doing so that when they're not meeting enrage timers/damage checks they can accurately determine how to improve.

Yes, some people use them for bad reasons... but we don't just... remove everything that could ever be used for bad purposes because of that. Sometimes you need to have nice things for ordinary people and then just punish the people who misuse them.

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then what about a meter that you can activate at will.
So you can activate it in any situation you want to be measured.
But only checks your performance and can't be shared in game.
The only way to share is by posting a screenshot or telling other people what your number is.

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And thus you can work with Bob to figure out what is going wrong - is he just misreading the timings, is he attacking the wrong target, is he just getting stunned too often or whatever else might be going on. None of that is visible unless you see it DURING the fight.

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By screaming,. abusive epithets, obscenities, public humiliation..oh and lets not forget the old and very timeworn excuse

"You won the roll for the mount but xyz did more dps than you so he gets the mount"

Dont tell me this doesnt happen , it does. I am immensely amused by the utter denial I see in these threads that parsers dont contribute to toxic and abusive behaviour.

They do.

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Yes, some people use them for bad reasons... but we don't just... remove everything that could ever be used for bad purposes because of that

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Tell me, when you told Bob about his dps, did he ask you first? Or do you shove it in their faces? Did they ASK you for your feedback? Did they ASK you to discuss their dps with them?

No, they didnt. But you poke your nose into it and do it anyway, and you dont CARE whether or not they want to hear it you will tell them anyway.

You are not getting an official ingame parser. it is not happening. FULL STOP. All the whining and jumping up and down wont change a thing.

Accept it. The answer is a FLAT NO. The end.

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But only checks your performance and can't be shared in game.

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"Post your dps numbers to be allowed into our group or else"

No.

Very simple solution to DPS meters.

Don't add fights that require DPS checks and you wouldn't need DPS meters.

Problem solved.

Game has dps checks now , all content can and has been cleared with no need for dps meters.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

By screaming,. abusive epithets, obscenities, public humiliation..oh and lets not forget the old and very timeworn excuse

"You won the roll for the mount but xyz did more dps than you so he gets the mount"

Dont tell me this doesnt happen , it does. I am immensely amused by the utter denial I see in these threads that parsers dont contribute to toxic and abusive behaviour.

They do.



Tell me, when you told Bob about his dps, did he ask you first? Or do you shove it in their faces? Did they ASK you for your feedback? Did they ASK you to discuss their dps with them?

No, they didnt. But you poke your nose into it and do it anyway, and you dont CARE whether or not they want to hear it you will tell them anyway.

You are not getting an official ingame parser. it is not happening. FULL STOP. All the whining and jumping up and down wont change a thing.

Accept it. The answer is a FLAT NO. The end.



"Post your dps numbers to be allowed into our group or else"

No.

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I think they are talking about in a static setting to which if you are playing in a static and you are the reason they are not clearing the fight due to suboptimal play and you do nothing nor take advice to improve, you are fundamentally just as toxic for wasting the time of other people just as much as somebody who trash talks somebody on their dps. You can absolutely tell somebody where they need to improve without sounding like you're off your meds. Only casual rats talk like that.

Also that scenario never happens in PF. If that happens in a static then sure, that's on the static. But PF? No shot. Literally a bannable offense.

Good idea with some small problems.

You see, ESO also had this problem. PC players had access to addons, and they could fine tune their builds off of the parse information. Something that is actually really, really important in a game with custom loadouts. To rectify it in some way, ZOS gave console players various training dummies to reflect different environments. When the target reached 0hp, it spit out your dps and time of completion.

While helpful, it didn't tell you anything about how you got those numbers or how to improve. It's all guesswork from there. Something that would be useful is for it to spit out a little combat log, not unlike the one we already have access to, but on the timeline. You could see your missed gcd, or double weaves easily. A lot of the problem is that we build terrible muscle memory, and knowing where these habits lay is the hardest step to improving.

Oh, hey Vel is back to being unhinged.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

"Post your dps numbers to be allowed into our group or else"

No.

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oh I forgot to add.
They should add a rule that says no DPS gatekeeping like that.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

Good idea with some small problems.

You see, ESO also had this problem. PC players had access to addons, and they could fine tune their builds off of the parse information. Something that is actually really, really important in a game with custom loadouts. To rectify it in some way, ZOS gave console players various training dummies to reflect different environments. When the target reached 0hp, it spit out your dps and time of completion.

While helpful, it didn't tell you anything about how you got those numbers or how to improve. It's all guesswork from there. Something that would be useful is for it to spit out a little combat log, not unlike the one we already have access to, but on the timeline. You could see your missed gcd, or double weaves easily. A lot of the problem is that we build terrible muscle memory, and knowing where these habits lay is the hardest step to improving.

Oh, hey Vel is back to being unhinged.

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The thing is that it would not account for raid DPS jobs provide. If we used a system like that, then you would never invite a DNC because it would only show their personal dps without dance partner and the damage their dance partner provides. You wouldn't even be able to have a pretend dummy since their gauge generation will vary based on the job they are partnered with AND the overall combined damage is dependent on who the partner as well.

Not to mention not accounting for specific adjustments. Unless they literally played out the exact sequence of a fight which would be a slap in the face to world-first races AND groups that prefer to blind prog, then you would never be able to to "simulate" something like pinax in p4s or damage uptime for teather/rot phases in the same fight.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

By screaming,. abusive epithets, obscenities, public humiliation..oh and lets not forget the old and very timeworn excuse

"You won the roll for the mount but xyz did more dps than you so he gets the mount"

Dont tell me this doesnt happen , it does. I am immensely amused by the utter denial I see in these threads that parsers dont contribute to toxic and abusive behaviour.

They do.



Tell me, when you told Bob about his dps, did he ask you first? Or do you shove it in their faces? Did they ASK you for your feedback? Did they ASK you to discuss their dps with them?

No, they didnt. But you poke your nose into it and do it anyway, and you dont CARE whether or not they want to hear it you will tell them anyway.

You are not getting an official ingame parser. it is not happening. FULL STOP. All the whining and jumping up and down wont change a thing.

Accept it. The answer is a FLAT NO. The end.



"Post your dps numbers to be allowed into our group or else"

No.

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You can scream about the inanimate object all you like, doesn't change the fact that one HUNDRED percent of the toxicity I've seen in this game has come from toxic casuals and their sneering, seething hatred for anyone daring to suggest they're anything less than perfect at the game.

Whence comes this irrational rage about statistics and math. Where on the doll did the combat log insult your mother.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

The thing is that it would not account for raid DPS jobs provide. If we used a system like that, then you would never invite a DNC because it would only show their personal dps without dance partner and the damage their dance partner provides. You wouldn't even be able to have a pretend dummy since their gauge generation will vary based on the job they are partnered with AND the overall combined damage is dependent on who the partner as well.

Not to mention not accounting for specific adjustments. Unless they literally played out the exact sequence of a fight which would be a slap in the face to world-first races AND groups that prefer to blind prog, then you would never be able to to "simulate" something like pinax in p4s or damage uptime for teather/rot phases in the same fight.

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What I am trying to get at, and what has been repeated in these threads ad nauseum, is that the raw numbers are worthless. A DNCs dps is going to be poor no matter what. What are their GCD uptimes like? Do they pocket their procs correctly? Do they ever sit on fans? Are they repeatedly misclicking steps?

That is what I have been trying to say for two weeks now. Logs are powerful and numbers mean nothing without the data.

Half of logs is to find your muscle bound mistakes. You cannot improve on a dummy if you don't know what you're doing wrong, and you'll carry those bad habits into combat. You want that nailed down so they are second nature in the fight.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

Very simple solution to DPS meters.

Don't add fights that require DPS checks and you wouldn't need DPS meters.

Problem solved.

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Nah, people will still want damage if not to guarantee a clear, then to speed things up.

The DPS meter dilemma can be mitigated by increasing the effort to get data from the client into the addon. It seems, that tools like ACT can easily read the communication between server and client. Why not encrypt that data? And change the encyption keys with every patch or every server maintanance? And then there are also security techniques like ASLR. This makes it difficult to read the memory directly from the client. And none of those techniques is intrusive like root kit-like anticheat programs. :)


Cheers

Numbers are scary.

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Originally Posted by b3nzyme

My solution: Why not add attack dummies that have a damage number show up on top of them when you attack them them to show your damage score, so you can measure yourself without the use of an add on, and when you click off of it, the game is still the same way it was as before - without the use of an add-on. This solves every problem argued except for the people who want to judge other people. In that case, perhaps make an entirely optional instance where you can measure yourself in different scenarios (standstill, aoe, bossfights, mix, etc) and show a score to somebody as well as a breakdown so those people can be satisfied, but let's not get too distracted. My simple idea is the attack dummy with a number that shows on top of it to display your performance. Let's choose that as the starting point, and add your ideas onto that further to see if that is acceptable.

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Basically already exists. Thats essentially what SSS dummies do..

While they don't give a specific number for dps it is measurable and comparable.. if you can beat the dummy with 20 seconds left on the clock you're doing measurably more dps than if you can barely beat the dummy with 1 second left on the clock..

What SSS dummies also do though is set a bar. (even if tuning is slightly off) of what you should be able to achieve at a particular gear level. which is better than just whacking a dummy and getting a number that ultimately means nothing without a bar or reference point...

You smacked a dummy and did 10k dps.. is that good for your job? bad for your job? what about gear level? maybe you've seen job doing 15k dps so you're 10k may look bad. but if your gear is lower then your 10k may actually be very good indicating you actually have the job down pretty well just need to improve the gear.

SSS at least gives you an indication of what your theoretical damage potential should be at various given ilevels.. they also do a good of eliminating variables which is essential for any accurate analysis the variables must be controlled.

while they wont help you clear content they do at least set a bar for entry.. if you cant beat the dummy there's no way you can beat the content without being heavily carried.

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

The DPS meter dilemma can be mitigated by increasing the effort to get data from the client into the addon. It seems, that tools like ACT can easily read the communication between server and client. Why not encrypt that data? And change the encyption keys with every patch or every server maintanance?

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Latency would be a big answer here... the encryption would either be minimal so as not to create latency at which point becomes cracked very easily so wouldnt stop anything. or highly encrypted which would introduce increased latency to players and make the game experience even worse.

Damage meters are totally fine to use if you personally, or even your entire static if they're in agreement, want to analyse your performance in great detail in order to fine tune things.
But it should always remain completely optional, because all of the content can be completed without it. None of this over analysation is in any way necessary, and imo bordering on OCD.

SE cannot add a native damage meter to the game, because that would be tantamount to endorsing it's use, and make it very difficult to prevent players using it to harass others or making it a de facto requirement for savage participation.

By remaining a third party add on, it can be available, optional, but not officially endorsed, it's the best of both world.
Unless you're breaking the rules by using damage meters to harass or pressure others, there's no way they can tell you're using it.

There's nothing to change, the status quo is sufficient... for the vast majority of players who aren't streamers.
If you're a steamer, don't show your damage meter on screen. You can still have it up on a dualscreen setup.

This is all just common sense stuff, don't be stupid and there's nothing SE need to change.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

Very simple solution to DPS meters.

Don't add fights that require DPS checks and you wouldn't need DPS meters.

Problem solved.

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Forget it. There will always be a dps meter if it is possible to implement one. The very first addon in WoW vanilla was a dps meter. In early beta versions of this game they had already one. And there was not one single fight which required a minimum dps. :)



Cheers

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

By remaining a third party add on, it can be available, optional, but not officially endorsed, it's the best of both world.
Unless you're breaking the rules by using damage meters to harass or pressure others, there's no way they can tell you're using it.

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Unofficial endorsement is still bad because of streaming. A streamer should be discouraged from using these tools, because they otherwise are a cause of usage, and the toxicity that goes with it. By showing that a streamer can do it without (even if in secret a teammember uses it), it still gives a better example. For streaming it even should go that far that if a teammember uses such tool while the streamer is aware of it (and currently streaming), that the streamer risks a ban. Streamers are supposed to be an example. Allowing them to cheat is counter productive (yes, there are exceptions here, but usualy those are just single player games in which the streamer is only playing to entertain and not realy be competetive).

Dont give players the impression that such tool is fine! Even if you believe it doesnt harm.

Note that using damage meters doesnt directly mean any harassing, but secretly it still is. If someone wants to join, but his DPS gets measured (in secret), then that still will be the deciding factor on them. Even if the player does well on other aspects, the DPS will be used. Sure, it might be hard to detect, but once it can be detected, it instantly allows a ban (and thats a good thing!). But the thing is, if they get rejected and are very skilled, they will still know why. Which still acts as harrassment towards such player (being rejected for a false reason).

And the issue isnt in the top tier teams. They recruit in a much more critical way (just DPS meters isnt enough, they most likely even want to see a stream from your perspective). And at that point, because its localy done, DPS can be parsed from that because values get displayed (so no 3rd party tool is realy needed). Those teams realy want to know more about their teammates and wont just rely on a single number. Its usualy the sub teams that use those values. Believing they are good and are allowed to set such benchmark. They will hide their own lack of skill behind such number 'because they can reach that' (ignoring the aspect that they put extra stress on the tank/healer, or take excessive risks that often end up counter productive).

So yes, top tier teams dont need it, but only use it because they want to know where things went wrong to analyze it in detail (and using such tool makes that easier). And unlike sub teams, they wont blame as they trust everyone in doing the proper thing. Even if that resulted in the fail. Its a completely diffirent mindset (and thats why they are top tier). But at the same time, if such tool gets banned, they can still do their thing, just slower.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Latency would be a big answer here... the encryption would either be minimal so as not to create latency at which point becomes cracked very easily so wouldnt stop anything. or highly encrypted which would introduce increased latency to players and make the game experience even worse.

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True. But all modern CPUs have special instructions for encryption/decryption.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AES_instruction_set

Intel since 2010 and AMD since 2011. :) So i do not believe, that this is a serious issue. :)


Cheers

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

Unofficial endorsement is still bad because of streaming. A streamer should be discouraged from using these tools, because they otherwise are a cause of usage, and the toxicity that goes with it. By showing that a streamer can do it without (even if in secret a teammember uses it), it still gives a better example. For streaming it even should go that far that if a teammember uses such tool while the streamer is aware of it (and currently streaming), that the streamer risks a ban. Streamers are supposed to be an example. Allowing them to cheat is counter productive (yes, there are exceptions here, but usualy those are just single player games in which the streamer is only playing to entertain and not realy be competetive).

Dont give players the impression that such tool is fine! Even if you believe it doesnt harm.

Note that using damage meters doesnt directly mean any harassing, but secretly it still is. If someone wants to join, but his DPS gets measured (in secret), then that still will be the deciding factor on them. Even if the player does well on other aspects, the DPS will be used. Sure, it might be hard to detect, but once it can be detected, it instantly allows a ban (and thats a good thing!). But the thing is, if they get rejected and are very skilled, they will still know why. Which still acts as harrassment towards such player (being rejected for a false reason).

And the issue isnt in the top tier teams. They recruit in a much more critical way (just DPS meters isnt enough, they most likely even want to see a stream from your perspective). And at that point, because its localy done, DPS can be parsed from that because values get displayed (so no 3rd party tool is realy needed). Those teams realy want to know more about their teammates and wont just rely on a single number. Its usualy the sub teams that use those values. Believing they are good and are allowed to set such benchmark. They will hide their own lack of skill behind such number 'because they can reach that' (ignoring the aspect that they put extra stress on the tank/healer, or take excessive risks that often end up counter productive).

So yes, top tier teams dont need it, but only use it because they want to know where things went wrong to analyze it in detail (and using such tool makes that easier). And unlike sub teams, they wont blame as they trust everyone in doing the proper thing. Even if that resulted in the fail. Its a completely diffirent mindset (and thats why they are top tier). But at the same time, if such tool gets banned, they can still do their thing, just slower.

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But this is Yoshi P's stance.
He's gone on record saying "we understand the value of parsers, our official policy is no but... don't get caught "

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Game has dps checks now , all content can and has been cleared with no need for dps meters.

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open your windows people
we don't need a/c

all those against a/c join me now

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

But this is Yoshi P's stance.
He's gone on record saying "we understand the value of parsers, our official policy is no but... don't get caught "

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when you have to put the burden of moderation on the player lmao go yoship

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

"You won the roll for the mount but xyz did more dps than you so he gets the mount"

Dont tell me this doesnt happen , it does. I am immensely amused by the utter denial I see in these threads that parsers dont contribute to toxic and abusive behaviour.

They do.

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Controversial take:

There is nothing wrong with this stance as long as it's said upfront. You join someone else's group, you go by their rules. Don't like it? Make your own group with your own rules.

The problem is...

Anything that SE could natively support realistically wouldn't match the analytical ability of what can be done externally. E.g. be it through 2 certain and forbidden websites. If they were to only display the parsed value then it doesn't really give that much more information than what you would otherwise get from just doing Stone Sky Sea.

To put it into perspective, both tell you whether you're performing adequately or inadequately, but neither would tell you how or where your performance issues lie. E.g., Is it going to tell me if my DPS loss is from drifting cooldowns, missing positional, or actual general rotation flaw? If I'm honest, unless the game could natively support the same analytical features, then it won't really be as extensive a tool for improvement as some people might hope.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Damage meters are totally fine to use if you personally, or even your entire static if they're in agreement, want to analyse your performance in great detail in order to fine tune things..

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They won't be used for this. I know it, and so do you.

I don't need a meter to tell me when I screw up, and if I can get through a fight keeping those mistakes to a minimum or even zero, I will know I carried my weight in that fight. What I care about is the boss dying, and there is already a big giant meter on my screen telling me how much health it has left. I don't need to see that number either. I only need to know that I need to make that bar empty.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I don't need a meter to tell me when I screw up, and if I can get through a fight keeping those mistakes to a minimum or even zero, I will know I carried my weight in that fight. What I care about is the boss dying, and there is already a big giant meter on my screen telling me how much health it has left. I don't need to see that number either. I only need to know that I need to make that bar empty.

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Do you do ultimate, savage, or extreme content? No? Didn't think so

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

Oh, hey Vel is back to being unhinged.

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Hidden fflogs, no raid mounts on lodestone, this guy checks all the boxes

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Originally Posted by SwingLifeAway

Do you do ultimate, savage, or extreme content? No? Didn't think so

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My brother in Hydaelyn please put less effort into trashing people on the forums and more effort into clearing the tier

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

My brother in Hydaelyn please put less effort into trashing people on the forums and more effort into clearing the tier

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damn the casuals were right
ban parsing from the game guys gg

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

By screaming,.
Dont tell me this doesnt happen , it does. I am immensely amused by the utter denial I see in these threads that parsers dont contribute to toxic and abusive behaviour.

<snip for length>

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When I used to play a game that was a lot more friendly towards parsing tools, I had a friend whose computer struggled to run the game. He'd ask the raid all the time what his dps was so he knew. Yes, people in organized environments WANT to know how they're doing. They want to have that discussion - in a constructive way of course.

You don't join a structured, cooperative high end environment without wanting to improve and wanting to have discussions about how to optimize to reach a goal. That's the point of that environment - getting a group of like-minded individuals together to push and challenge top end content and maximize their class to do it. So yes, we did want to have that discussion. In my current static we're always discussing 'should we swap x with y in order to maximize dps because this class likely does more than that class and we need a bit more dps in this group because the adds are dying slower'.

But in a pug? No. You don't have those discussions in a pug unless someone asks. Obviously that's just rude. If you're not happy with how a group is going, you leave on your own. You don't try to get someone else kicked.

No, I don't disagree that things like that happen. People with bad attitudes exist. But... again, we don't remove the in-game chat because 'some people might harass others using it'. We don't remove glam because 'people judge others by their glam taste and harass them'. We don't outlaw kitchen knives in real life because 'someone might hurt someone with one'. Tools are not inherently good or bad. They can be used for good or bad. You introduce rules and punishments for people who cannot use the tools well, you do not say 'NO TOOLS FOR ANYONE because SOMEONE might do bad'.

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Originally Posted by hagare

then what about a meter that you can activate at will.
So you can activate it in any situation you want to be measured.
<snip for length>.

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To be clear, my preferred implementation is a personal dps meter that has to be turned on to be visible(ie. opt in rather than opt out) only shows your own dps that can be exported into a logfile to be submitted to analysis/data collating tools. Just so we're on the same page regarding what I want this game to have.

And I don't want them to change anything about the harassment parts of the ToS because harassing people over performance is just awful.

We should just ban the entire playerbase tbh.

Don't have worry about dps checks or parsers if there isn't a single soul playing the game, amirite?

Target dummies don't exactly fight back. That's kind of the point of damage calculators. "Can I maintain good damage while dodging all of these attacks and resolving mechanics"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

My brother in Hydaelyn please put less effort into trashing people on the forums and more effort into clearing the tier

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"Parsers would be bad because they'd be used for gatekeeping, which I think is inherently toxic."

Moments later: "Your opinion is worthless because you haven't yet cleared this tier of Savage content," despite that having nothing to do with the topic of discussion.

Should I even be surprised at this point?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SwingLifeAway

My sister in Hydaelyn it was literally a joke

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My mistake, then. As it came on the heels of having just called another person out for the same, it seemed less likely. Having gone through Ivtrix's post history, I see now that the comments were made in jest. My apologies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

"Parsers would be bad because they'd be used for gatekeeping, which I think is inherently toxic."

Moments later: "Your opinion is worthless because you haven't yet cleared this tier of Savage content."

Should I even be surprised at this point?

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My sister in Hydaelyn it was literally a joke

Should I even be surprised at this point?