A collection of issues raised by community.

Seems like the recent debate on what's toxic and what isn't has left the community a bit too divided and unproductive. I've gone through the community, have made this thread to help better survey our feedback.

Matchmaking
Unranked to Bronze = same pool
Bronze to Gold 1 = same pool
Plat to Crystal = same pool
There seems to be a major concentration of pooled of players, with exception of matches where you're qualifying to next tier or on a streak, it will pull in a random higher person.

- As you go up in rank, quality of play doesn't increase.
- Match making feels like a gambling simulator.
- People want a more refined experience, it's just too broad.


Crowd Control:
Polymorph - Should be cleansable. Imp bug abuse with the help of addons helps WHM perform inhuman responses to cancel and eat peoples LBs due to interaction.
Silence - Just too strong and the king of CC.
AOE CC - Is too much.
CC Stacking - Requires no co-ordination as they stack on their own.
Purify - Doesn't remove debuffs correctly and doesn't make you immune to CC after.
Guard - Still cc'd when in guard.
Jobs with two types of CC when not squishy - self explanatory.

Core Mechanics:
- Some LBs are hard to see and to react to.
- People want different particle effects Red vs Blue.
- Purify not working as intended.
- Guard heavily influenced by tick and not functioning as intended due to how many jobs can just layer dots or remove/bypass it.
- More Chat Commands that specify things: like move out, stick together, heal up, enemy LB warning.
- Chat Commands having same sound effects.
- Let us communicate in chat, it will probably generate same amount of tickets if people are offended by a firework. Let's be honest.
- Sound going out when participating in PvP.
- One shot skills - people don't like this.
- Cheaters and Traders.
- Lack of PvP reward incentives for Ranked.

Casual Concerns:
- Job stacking like all WHM or all SMN.
- Frontlines more explosive that intended with new pvp revamp.
- AOE stacking.
- Wanting to que with friends in non ranked modes.

Balance:
Red Mage - Still too strong.
White Mage - Still too impactful.
Dragoon - Mostly issues with their LB clarity and some damage output.
Samurai - Mostly issues with their interaction to AOE and the team wipe potential.
Ninja - Mostly issues with their LB executing when not at the execute threshold and threshold being too high.
Machinist - Mostly issues in regards to their random execute.


Jobs:
Paladin - want more skills/ways that help them control area, since they rely on team, if a member runs off, they get punished for it (currently strongest dueling job btw).
Gunbreaker - Junction should be a choice or removed and given those effects baseline, weak shields and heals to help them with the brawler playstyle.
Monk - Some sort of sustain during their earth to keep them in the fight. A consistent way to proc Pressure Points. Players feel that the weaker skills are the best way to proc them.
Nin - Stealth too clunky, maybe a buffer--able to use skills a second or two after coming out still.
Reaper - Takes too long to ramp up, they can't deal the damage because too easily interrupted. Users want a way to not be interrupted so easily so they can be viable long enough to do the damage.
Bard - Players feel like their ultimate is still lacking and not impactful enough.
Machinist - 'bug' reverted as it made them feel less clunky.
Dancer - Potency buffs are not enough and they still feel weak, consistent point raised: their range feels too small.


Let me know if I missed something, for those of you more expert in your jobs, give specifics and I'll edit. Let's make PvP and Ranked the best it can be!

Considering the only changes they have seen fit to make thus far are a handful of potency changes, I wouldn't hold my breath on getting traction on any of this. It's pretty obvious there was no serious playtesting at all for the pvp mess we have now.

"Summoner - A way to deal with melee focus." Thank you, this is my problem. If two melee's follow me. If no one helps me or I'm in a tight spot I'm dead.

I'm impressed by how much complete nonsense you've compiled there.

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Originally Posted by Rieze_Xeero

"Summoner - A way to deal with melee focus." Thank you, this is my problem. If two melee's follow me. If no one helps me or I'm in a tight spot I'm dead.

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I'm curious as to how Radiant Aegis and Mountain Buster are not enough to deal with this. Though besides that, shouldn't you lose a 2v1 because cause it's a 2v1?

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

Considering the only changes they have seen fit to make thus far are a handful of potency changes, I wouldn't hold my breath on getting traction on any of this. It's pretty obvious there was no serious playtesting at all for the pvp mess we have now.

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Lmao. Where is the lie. Smile. Frown.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

I'm curious as to how Radiant Aegis and Mountain Buster are not enough to deal with this. Though besides that, shouldn't you lose a 2v1 because cause it's a 2v1?

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You are indeed correct. Every job should be able to duel but not 2vs1. I will change the wording.

A lot of good points. Though personally, I'd say dragoon is fine in the position it's in currently as it has literally no utility outside of the damage they bring. That, coupled with the fact their LB has counterplay (make the marker more obvious please) I'd say puts them in a decent spot. Then again, I main dragoon myself so I'm probably biased lol. Side rant, but rank is absolutely not an indication of one's skill level in its current state and that should not be the case. The changes they did this patch are way too mild to actually shift the balance around in any meaningful way (also they fixed warrior healing on their entire GCD combo which is super neat)

BLM and SMN are fine the way they are kitwise.

As for the CC Part mentioned, i disagree partly. CC distribution in itself is quite good for the MOST part.

- Silence should be changed into something similar like its counterpart in PvE, it should only prevent specific Skills/Spells from being used, not all of them.
- some Skills like Verflare which magically bypass Guard should be readjusted for that part alone, there are too many Shield piercing Skills that arent even mentioned that they should even do so in the first place.
- Increase Elixir Timer to 8-12sec, it is way too fast for most Jobs to react with a 2,5sec GCD.
- Make either WHM LB OR Polymorph uncleanseable, not both.
- Give SCH (and the other Healers too) a better Dps Tool instead of Broil, even if it is a long hardcasted nuke or a melee Skill.
- allow SAM LB to be mitigated partly trough Guard, even if it just 10-20%.HP left on target.
- as for Purify, IF it gets a immunity time increased effect, increase also its CD.

BLM is fine imo. We don't need another way to gain Swiftcast.
AM has 2 charges which gives Swiftcast and your LB raises up pretty fast.
Just gotta push out those Deeps so you can hurry and get your LB.

SQEX inability to communicate and act quickly will ultimately kill the mode.

It's a pity because they have a good foundation and I think it's possible to nurture this mode into something beautiful working TOGETHER with the community.

About BLM, i would like Burst to be an instant cast or have a bit more to it to slightly increase survivability and for Fire to be a more viable option. As it is now, its taking to long and too low of a reward for the set up, may be a bit stonger DoT, but shorter or perhaps a bit more burst of damage? Fire rarely gets any use from my experience as the speed of the game is very fast and swingy.

LB could also use some recast time reduction as it is extremely slow compared to other LBs while making you an obvious walking purple Christmas Tree.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

BLM and SMN are fine the way they are kitwise.

As for the CC Part mentioned, i disagree partly. CC distribution in itself is quite good for the MOST part.

- Silence should be changed into something similar like its counterpart in PvE, it should only prevent specific Skills/Spells from being used, not all of them.
- some Skills like Verflare which magically bypass Guard should be readjusted for that part alone, there are too many Shield piercing Skills that arent even mentioned that they should even do so in the first place.
- Increase Elixir Timer to 8-12sec, it is way too fast for most Jobs to react with a 2,5sec GCD.
- Make either WHM LB OR Polymorph uncleanseable, not both.
- Give SCH (and the other Healers too) a better Dps Tool instead of Broil, even if it is a long hardcasted nuke or a melee Skill.
- allow SAM LB to be mitigated partly trough Guard, even if it just 10-20%.HP left on target.
- as for Purify, IF it gets a immunity time increased effect, increase also its CD.

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I can see where you're coming from but if a job has a CC that ignores a whole mechanic then that job will always be picked over anything else, the first step to seeing a variation of healers on the field it to make the one that's favoured not so favoured.

That's also like giving a Samurai two CC and then saying 'well a Samurais weakness is you just move out 4Head' but then you've gone and given them two ways to keep you in place, so, you've just negated that supposed weakness and that means they have none.

Purify and Guard should definitely be priority and above all else and yeah, potion timer is so short people at higher ranks will just use it next to a fight because you know nobody is going to interrupt you hahaha.

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Originally Posted by Karasio

A lot of good points. Though personally, I'd say dragoon is fine in the position it's in currently as it has literally no utility outside of the damage they bring. That, coupled with the fact their LB has counterplay (make the marker more obvious please) I'd say puts them in a decent spot. Then again, I main dragoon myself so I'm probably biased lol. Side rant, but rank is absolutely not an indication of one's skill level in its current state and that should not be the case. The changes they did this patch are way too mild to actually shift the balance around in any meaningful way (also they fixed warrior healing on their entire GCD combo which is super neat)

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Personally I am okay with their damage, I've questioned it sometimes mostly the radius of the aoe but what's been consistent is the amount of times I've used guard thinking my the enemy dragoon used lb when it was my Ally.

Also the bug where they use their LB but their body stays on the ground and moves around untargetable is funny as hell.

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Originally Posted by Balmung_Griffin

SQEX inability to communicate and act quickly will ultimately kill the mode.

It's a pity because they have a good foundation and I think it's possible to nurture this mode into something beautiful working TOGETHER with the community.

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Preach brother. They only do that for the PVP community. They have these people acting like an abused girlfriend who's happy to receive any scrap of attention. 'Well at least square enix did some potency changes lowered cc duration and fixed a bug that literally has changed nothing except for show how busted it was, anyway, you should be grateful they even gave us that'. Wack.

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Originally Posted by Lymberey

About BLM, i would like Burst to be an instant cast or have a bit more to it to slightly increase survivability and for Fire to be a more viable option. As it is now, its taking to long and too low of a reward for the set up, may be a bit stonger DoT, but shorter or perhaps a bit more burst of damage? Fire rarely gets any use from my experience as the speed of the game is very fast and swingy.

LB could also use some recast time reduction as it is extremely slow compared to other LBs while making you an obvious walking purple Christmas Tree.

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On the matter of Fire, i think it is Fair potencywise. BLM is more about harassment rather than nuking someone down, and Burst/Foul are your finishers. The Dot from Fire is a excellent tool to prevent NIN to go into stealth btw, even if you just trigger Superflare at 1 Stack.

As for the LB, it is currently really powerful, if you play correctly, you can set yourself up in a way, where you can cast 2 Fouls in a very short amount of time, but depending on the situation youre in, its not always the best choice to do so.

Fire is indeed ok potency wise, but i think it is not as good as ice as a harassment tool as it takes 12 second for the full effect. I was thinking about 4k for 9s. The same potency but a bit faster to make it more viable during team fight and LB. Still, 3s deep freeze is still stronger in many situation imo.

About the LB, i was comparing it to other LBs which are mostly instantaneous, and doesn’t make you an obvious target. The LB is closely tied to BLM kit so it takes a lot of time to get the full value from it. 15s is pretty long to get it all out, so i think 12s or so should be more fitting for the speed of the game. Going faster and stronger as a trade-off for being a squishy Christmas Tree is kinda interesting for me.

About Foul though, i think its in a good spot after the 6.11 potency buff.

Queue's seem to be grouped ~1 tier up and below besides the end tiers so:

Unranked: Unranked <-> Silver
Bronze: Unranked <-> Silver
Silver: Unranked <-> Gold
Gold: Bronze <-> Platinum (no more unranked teammates and so is often a huge shift in how games feel)
Plat: Gold <-> Diamond
Diamond: Plat <-> Crystal (another huge shift in how matches are played again)
Crystal: Plat <->Crystal

If someone is on a hard enough streak, it pushes them up a tier so you will occasionally see Plats against Crystal and Gold against Diamond etc.

In general, I'd say the following:

Unranked: No knowledge of the game mode as they're brand new.

Bronze: Haven't learned to focus targets, how to pick priorities, play the objective properly, or how to do damage properly.

Silver: Know how to focus a target and do damage, minimum understanding of the objective, still can't decide how to prioritize targets.

Gold: Decent understanding of the objective, still can't decide how to prioritize targets.

Platinum: Pieces start to come together, but people don't know how the strengths and weaknesses of multiple classes to know counters. Occasional targeting issue, but not as bad as lower elo where you'll find more people ignoring marked targets.

Diamond: People that have learned to be more consistent by avoiding deaths better than lower elo, they know how to burst and cc targets, good understanding of their main class, and know how to beat certain matchup's/comps. Shotcalling/target priority is significantly improved compared to Platinum and below, but still not perfect. Often are significantly more aggressive and play-making orientated compared to Crystal as that type of mentality is what gets you to Diamond in the first place.

Crystal: Best at macro'ing the game. Most likely to pull comebacks properly, most likely to be even k/da wise on a losing team, risk aversive, have near perfected the meta classes and know how to abuse them. However, since most Crystal only played meta to climb, they end up being Gold/Plat'ish as soon as they switch classes and get stomped out by Diamonds on their main class because they don't know the playstyle and their role in the team. A lot of times my best teammates are fellow Diamond players instead of Crystal just because most Crystal's don't seem to actually care about their performance anymore like that unless they're on the top 100. All of the best Crystal's on Aether I'd like to have on my team after over 200 games in Diamond/Crystal elo, are all on the leaderboard, most top 50, as Sage or Sam.

Personally, I'd change it to the following:
Unranked: Unranked <-> Bronze
Bronze: Unranked <-> Silver
Silver: Bronze <-> Gold (gets rid of the 2nd elo hell ppl describe)
Gold: Silver <-> Plat
Plat: Gold <->Diamond3-5
Diamond3-5: Plat<->Diamond 1
Diamond1&2: Diamond 2<->Crystal
Crystal: Diamond 2<-> Crystal

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Originally Posted by Lymberey

Fire is indeed ok potency wise, but i think it is not as good as ice as a harassment tool as it takes 12 second for the full effect. I was thinking about 4k for 9s. The same potency but a bit faster to make it more viable during team fight and LB. Still, 3s deep freeze is still stronger in many situation imo.

About the LB, i was comparing it to other LBs which are mostly instantaneous, and doesn’t make you an obvious target. The LB is closely tied to BLM kit so it takes a lot of time to get the full value from it. 15s is pretty long to get it all out, so i think 12s or so should be more fitting for the speed of the game. Going faster and stronger as a trade-off for being a squishy Christmas Tree is kinda interesting for me.

About Foul though, i think its in a good spot after the 6.11 potency buff.

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Agreed. Fire isn't competitive with ice. The potency of the Burn dot is nowhere near high enough to compete with the utility of Deep Freeze.
Low potency sustained damage is only good for padding the meter, outside the very niche case of pulling NIN out of stealth.
If Fire stacks increased the potency of the dot instead of the duration, you'd have a legitimate situational choice to make.

I'd welcome the CC changes, it's just too much atm. Purify needs a buff and polymorph needs a nerf, it's almost like an LB at this point. And I abuse it like a madman.

I still think Purify needs two charges. It's not even OP enough to completely shift battle outside of 1v1 due to just the sheer amount of AOE going out at any given time. Some would call "having to deal with an aoe stun is strategy" but to those people I would say also it's dumb design to require people to fight server ping on the wind map for a feather placement or use up all their guard in a fight when tornados appear.

I just want a way to mitigate against the SERVER screwing me not even other players. I'm so tired of getting screwed not by my skill but my server. Watching guard not go off for a full 1-3 seconds, watching purify not go off or not cure silence when it's supposed to, the immunity buff not procing etc.


The two possible outcomes of two purify charges are:

1. A player spams it twice back to back in order to provide the immunity they're supposed to get, or avoid even one of the gajillion status ailments they're getting hammered with.
2. A player is able to purify two cc skills in a small period of time out of 5 possible hits from the enemy party, not including stacks of aoes.

CC should not just be a "spam spam spam" skill but should be a strategic asset to the kit to secure a kill. If I'm even 2/3rds health I can get stun locked into death if the enemy party is even half awake and/or it's 2v1. Dying because they dps me down? That's one thing, but dying because Raiju/fleeting raiju EACH have a 3s stun and I have no punishment method other than to spam recuperate to delay the inevitable? Lame.

If I want to lock in a kill as GNB I have to hope that the other party member can't cc me and/or can't outrun me to a pot and/or can't recuperate. Even if the target has other options you can use a stun as they get close to death or silence and literally shut them down to counters. I don't think that's fair as it's not limited to "squishier" classes or even "low dps" classes. The extra dps ends up being a net negative because you can't secure a kill more reliably as you have no control over your opponent.

I can use rough divide all day long but if they bind/stun me or whm turns me into an imp they're going to have more than enough time to save themselves. Spiking (to me) is useless if you can't secure a kill. The pressure you put on the enemy party is "fine" but then you realize they can just cc destroy you and then move to the next party member and then elixir to top themselves off, making the pressure of them using recuperate less useful when even BRD from the backlines can silence you and kickback bind, stopping you once again.

The weird thing is both my faves, SGE and GNB, are both meant to burst then flee but because they're tanks and healers it puts a target on their backs immediately with little self sustain/cc options outside of kardia to myself in order to apply a barrier to myself in order to heal myself but hten that means I'm providing ZERO utility to the party until I try to cast Pnuema and get stunned/transformed/lb'd out of it. If Kardia applied to both my target and myself I'd literally stop complaining about that because then it would mean that I'm not giving up 90% of my heal potential to keep myself from dying, but without CC that's what I have to do currently.

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Originally Posted by Bureda

That's also like giving a Samurai two CC and then saying 'well a Samurais weakness is you just move out 4Head' but then you've gone and given them two ways to keep you in place, so, you've just negated that supposed weakness and that means they have none

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That's the other issue. You have some classes who literally have zero CC who aren't prone to the same issues that other classes that technically do the same thing don't have to worry about. I'd happily trade a bit of damage as SGE for even one punishment/defensive Utility skill. Icarus isn't enough when they can blink in my direction with CC and nullify its use. Bind? Can't use it. Silence? Can't use it. Stun can't use it.

Yeah SGE and GNB can do damage but it requires the other party to literally leave you unchallenged to do so properly. A high risk/high reward dps system makes sense if it wasn't for half the dps having more cc/utility than both SGE and GNB combined. That's not even taking into account that RDM can literally go in with white shift and barrier itself or swap to barrier mid combo if needed to defend itself

The more I think about purify, the more I'm convinced that they tested jobs 1v1 and disregarded that some horrendous team composition are possible.

A NIN can double stun you and a WHM can follow up with a poly and you're dead. Now imagine that plus a WAR and a SAM.

And then we have jobs with 0 CC, are they really that much stronger to compensate that?

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Originally Posted by Balmung_Griffin

The more I think about purify, the more I'm convinced that they tested jobs 1v1 and disregarded that some horrendous team composition are possible.

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Yeah I broke this down on another thread too:

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Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

I don't mind dying to DPS, that makes sense, but silence > stun > Silence > stun > stun is so awful. If they only had a few skills to use cc with I'd understand but when WAR has aoe stun every 15s and WHM LB....exists it means that no matter how good you're doing or how you time your purify because the classes will be able to immediately stun you again. With Purfiy being 30s that means WAR has two chances to stun you in a single window.

War can Rend twice.
PLD can shield bash twice.
NIN can Raiju twice.
AST can heavy/bind twice.
MNK can six star twice.
SAM can stun then silence you.
BRD can Silence then Bind you.

This doesn't take into account multiple people vs 1 player, WHM LB, or other possible combinations.

That means that 7 classes already render purify basically meaningless, EVEN IF it worked properly right now.

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This was regarding putting purify on a two charge system to help keep the server ping from screwing you constantly.

People won't be happy until some jobs are completely destroyed. SAM was already hard to play seriously because of how easy counterplay against them is--especially after the nerf. Literally just hit them with CC when you have a Chiten debuff and they have LB up. You know when they have LB up based on match time and they can LB twice in an entire match. If you're having issues with this, it's a lack of skill. SAM are not OP in ranked.

My main issue is still that it's far too easy for ranged players to sit back and deal damage and focus melees. Defensive CD's basically make it to where you can stall a melee almost indefinitely so it doesn't matter even if you could beat someone in 1v1; if you charge them because they're focusing you they will just pop guard and heal long enough that someone will help them. CC when groupfighting is too strong.

What should PVP work like is a bigger question, and I don't CC really has a theory of the case there. The mode is far too manic in terms of pacing to be tactical; skills need more pruning.

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Originally Posted by Snowborn

People won't be happy until some jobs are completely destroyed. SAM was already hard to play seriously because of how easy counterplay against them is--especially after the nerf. Literally just hit them with CC when you have a Chiten debuff and they have LB up. You know when they have LB up based on match time and they can LB twice in an entire match. If you're having issues with this, it's a lack of skill. SAM are not OP in ranked.

My main issue is still that it's far too easy for ranged players to sit back and deal damage and focus melees. Defensive CD's basically make it to where you can stall a melee almost indefinitely so it doesn't matter even if you could beat someone in 1v1; if you charge them because they're focusing you they will just pop guard and heal long enough that someone will help them. CC when groupfighting is too strong.

What should PVP work like is a bigger question, and I don't CC really has a theory of the case there. The mode is far too manic in terms of pacing to be tactical; skills need more pruning.

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169% sure SAM is still A+ Tier even after the 'nerfs'.

Updated Monk on main thread: Inconsistency with proccing pressure points

Purify really needs to be more responsive than it is now and the resilience buff on it needs to actually work. Purify itself is so slow that by the time it goes off you might already be dead even if you're trying to do Purify > Guard or Purify > Recuperate. You never get to the second skill because it takes a good second for the skill to actually cleanse the debuff.
I'd also like to add that I don't understand why the resilience buff is even conditional. Why can you even press the button when you're not CC'd if it does nothing? Just allow me to pop it for the Resilience non-conditionally if I want to take that risk.

Guard feels a bit slow to go off as well although it might be due to enemies snapshotting their skills before my guard went up. Not sure about this one.

I never thought about it but I do agree that the elixir recast should be a bit longer. It's also kinda meh that it can lock in like other casts in the game when you're slidecasting: you can hit someone at the tail end of their cast and it doesn't matter because the effect has already snapshotted. You hit them while the cast bar is still clearly there, they take damage and then right after their health fills up. I don't think it should take forever but 7 or even 8 seconds sounds pretty reasonable to me to have a bit more of a chance of preventing it especially when considering the effect snaps in tiny bit before the cast is finished.

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Originally Posted by Snowborn

People won't be happy until some jobs are completely destroyed. SAM was already hard to play seriously because of how easy counterplay against them is--especially after the nerf. Literally just hit them with CC when you have a Chiten debuff and they have LB up. You know when they have LB up based on match time and they can LB twice in an entire match. If you're having issues with this, it's a lack of skill. SAM are not OP in ranked.

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While job balance is much closer than folks like to admit, if SAM was that trivial to deal with, it wouldn't be the job of choice for so many top ranked players.
The problem with SAM is less the frequency with which they actually wipe teams, and more the psychological effect SAM has on the other team if they hold their LB.
Timidity loses matches, and a SAM with their LB lit up makes everyone walk on eggshells.

Dealing with Chiten/Zantetsuken is indeed super easy... 1v1, in a vacuum. That's not how matches work.
Most jobs cause intermittent AoE damage whether they want to or not, and most matches are decided in hotly contested, low readability CQC over the crystal.
Focus is as much a vital, limited resource in PvP as HP and MP, and SAM drains it rapidly just by having a full LB bar and existing.
The other 4 players on the SAM's team don't stop hitting me while I try to determine whether I'll get one-shot if I press Macrocosmos.

If I had my way, the 6.11 nerfs to SAM would be reverted and Zantetsuken CD would be reduced,
but Kuzushi would only be applied by Chiten when the SAM is the target of a direct attack.
There's nothing wrong with SAM outplaying folks and blowing them up with a counterattack when they get baited,
but a BRD should be able to fire Apex Arrow without worrying that it's going to go off at a weird angle because of server ticks and clip a SAM who will instantly kill him.

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Originally Posted by Lammas

Purify really needs to be more responsive than it is now and the resilience buff on it needs to actually work. Purify itself is so slow that by the time it goes off you might already be dead even if you're trying to do Purify > Guard or Purify > Recuperate. You never get to the second skill because it takes a good second for the skill to actually cleanse the debuff.
I'd also like to add that I don't understand why the resilience buff is even conditional. Why can you even press the button when you're not CC'd if it does nothing? Just allow me to pop it for the Resilience non-conditionally if I want to take that risk.

Guard feels a bit slow to go off as well although it might be due to enemies snapshotting their skills before my guard went up. Not sure about this one.

I never thought about it but I do agree that the elixir recast should be a bit longer. It's also kinda meh that it can lock in like other casts in the game when you're slidecasting: you can hit someone at the tail end of their cast and it doesn't matter because the effect has already snapshotted. You hit them while the cast bar is still clearly there, they take damage and then right after their health fills up. I don't think it should take forever but 7 or even 8 seconds sounds pretty reasonable to me to have a bit more of a chance of preventing it especially when considering the effect snaps in tiny bit before the cast is finished.

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I think what they had envisioned with Elixir is that you make a conscious decision to remove yourself out of a fight for a meaningful time to heal up before returning to it with full resources. At the moment, you can just go in, damage a bunch, run around the corner and just use an Elixir. It helps with consistent brawls but there's hardly any punishment in 5 seconds.

Edited Main Thread: Reaper, users want a way to not be interrupted so easily so they can be viable long enough to do the damage.

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Originally Posted by Iyrnwaen

While job balance is much closer than folks like to admit, if SAM was that trivial to deal with, it wouldn't be the job of choice for so many top ranked players.
The problem with SAM is less the frequency with which they actually wipe teams, and more the psychological effect SAM has on the other team if they hold their LB.
Timidity loses matches, and a SAM with their LB lit up makes everyone walk on eggshells.

Dealing with Chiten/Zantetsuken is indeed super easy... 1v1, in a vacuum. That's not how matches work.
Most jobs cause intermittent AoE damage whether they want to or not, and most matches are decided in hotly contested, low readability CQC over the crystal.
Focus is as much a vital, limited resource in PvP as HP and MP, and SAM drains it rapidly just by having a full LB bar and existing.
The other 4 players on the SAM's team don't stop hitting me while I try to determine whether I'll get one-shot if I press Macrocosmos.

If I had my way, the 6.11 nerfs to SAM would be reverted and Zantetsuken CD would be reduced,
but Kuzushi would only be applied by Chiten when the SAM is the target of a direct attack.
There's nothing wrong with SAM outplaying folks and blowing them up with a counterattack when they get baited,
but a BRD should be able to fire Apex Arrow without worrying that it's going to go off at a weird angle because of server ticks and clip a SAM who will instantly kill him.

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I think I agree with most of this, but there is an easy fix. If a SAM has LB, target them. Nuke them. They will go down. In the current state of the game, this is trivially easy.

Anyone who says SAM is still an A tier job doesn't play SAM.

Unless they can hit 2 people with their barrier attack (which is hard to do; it's casted and people wiggle/separate), their only mitigation is a 30 second cooldown which lasts 5 seconds and is a paltry 25%. SAM have to be front and center to attack. They are super easy to kill if your team can focus.

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Originally Posted by Snowborn

I think I agree with most of this, but there is an easy fix. If a SAM has LB, target them. Nuke them. They will go down. In the current state of the game, this is trivially easy.

Anyone who says SAM is still an A tier job doesn't play SAM.

Unless they can hit 2 people with their barrier attack (which is hard to do; it's casted and people wiggle/separate), their only mitigation is a 30 second cooldown which lasts 5 seconds and is a paltry 25%. SAM have to be front and center to attack. They are super easy to kill if your team can focus.

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SAM is still a A Tier it's just the S Tier is very dominant (RDM/DRG)

if you want to buff SAM then top 2 prio would be

- reduce casttime, it's so long you can ride an arthritis turtle backwards out of range

- namikiri shouldn't be removed when you use a different main skill

the rest is absolutely fine, SAM needs the nuclear Zantetsuken threat otherwise he's a perma target
and SAM blows up real nice with the recent def nerfs

My number 1 concern is RDM still being broken (OP) and way above any other job. Love to see it nerfed into the ground.

Only things sorely needed in general are diminishing returns on all crowd control, Guard being nerfed to a longer cooldown and/or only protecting against LB damage, and Purify actually being functional and its immunity buff lasting for maybe 10 seconds.

Recuperate could also use a tone down, as it delivers instant massive healing with no downside except MP cost (so what). Either add a short delay between uses or decrease the heal value.

Square Enix should hand off PVP development to staff who actually know what they are doing.

I think it's less Recuperate that needs a nerf and more that the cast time on elixirs needs to be increased.

It's short enough that you can reasonably just break LoS and pop one while your team is in the middle of an engagement; especially in comps that are more heavy on CC.

I would like to remind everyone that this is the first real Playtest for pvp balance.
SE is probably collecting data to improve for the next season.

Also, I think there is to much hard CC in PvP.
It's just not fun to get stun locked without having much counter play.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

I'm curious as to how Radiant Aegis and Mountain Buster are not enough to deal with this. Though besides that, shouldn't you lose a 2v1 because cause it's a 2v1?

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If you have your skills at full yes you can counter but high skilled enemies can still track you and once you run out or kills are on cool-down you are dead. Proper timing of skill usage is really important. Why I liked the volcano map cause it helps my movement a lot and I can easily get away from them. The skills that you mentioned helps a lot, but lets be honest, if 2 melee is persistent on killing you or even charging to your base/team, you will be killed. And when I say 2v1, you know some jobs can counter more than 1 enemy right? Summoner does not have that privilege at the moment. Did you rank to Crystal using Summoner? Probably not. :)

I think the Stun effects which some Jobs have should be reworked into a Paralyze effect (cureable trough Purify) or Bind, and Silence into only disabling specific Skills and not ALL of them.

I would also like for the Guard Skill to recieve some Buffs directly or indirectly, since there are MANY Skills that either nullify (WAR) or bypass it (like MCH, RDM and MNK) even if it would mean losing 1 or 2 sec on its duration.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

I would like to remind everyone that this is the first real Playtest for pvp balance.
SE is probably collecting data to improve for the next season.

Also, I think there is to much hard CC in PvP.
It's just not fun to get stun locked without having much counter play.

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We all know it's a new territory for them, that's why we expected them to have a team that listens and communicates with the community. They are just pulling a Blizzard at this point 'subverting your expectations because we know what you want'. Also it doesn't take a PvP vet to recognise that if you give a job a priority LB with a nuke and a stun and a CC that cannot be purified it will never create the fair gameplay they like to fantasize and rp about in their social posts and announcements, by default, it will be skewered.

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Originally Posted by Prrringles

My number 1 concern is RDM still being broken (OP) and way above any other job. Love to see it nerfed into the ground.

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I would be okay with RDM keeping some of their reduced damage so they can sting like the bee they are meant to be, Silence just needs to be gutted to the ground. There's no counterplay to that CC. You can't use your usual defensives around it, no guard, no shields, no healing. It's absurd and it comes in the form of AOE.
RDM has oppressive damage, oppressive healing and oppressive aoe silence.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I think it's less Recuperate that needs a nerf and more that the cast time on elixirs needs to be increased.

It's short enough that you can reasonably just break LoS and pop one while your team is in the middle of an engagement; especially in comps that are more heavy on CC.

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There's an obvious sound cue and animation. It is easily interrupted too, so if players can't notice that someone's using the elixir, then that's on them. Recuperate is instant and extremely powerful self healing with virtually no downsides.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

I would like to remind everyone that this is the first real Playtest for pvp balance.
SE is probably collecting data to improve for the next season.

Also, I think there is to much hard CC in PvP.
It's just not fun to get stun locked without having much counter play.

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Agreed 150%.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

I think the Stun effects which some Jobs have should be reworked into a Paralyze effect (cureable trough Purify) or Bind, and Silence into only disabling specific Skills and not ALL of them.

I would also like for the Guard Skill to recieve some Buffs directly or indirectly, since there are MANY Skills that either nullify (WAR) or bypass it (like MCH, RDM and MNK) even if it would mean losing 1 or 2 sec on its duration.

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Guard does not need to be buffed, it needs to be nerfed to only affect LB's and the environmental hazards on CC maps, it's way too powerful as it is now. Or if anything I'd like to see more jobs have the ability to bypass or disable Guard due to how insanely powerful it is.

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Originally Posted by Phentos

There's an obvious sound cue and animation. It is easily interrupted too, so if players can't notice that someone's using the elixir, then that's on them. Recuperate is instant and extremely powerful self healing with virtually no downsides.

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I'm just gonna disagree with this. I've had so many situations where I notice see a someone is sprinting behind a corner clearly going for an elixir and even if I hit them with an instant cast immediately when getting line of sight and the castbar still being very much visible, the elixir will go through. The castbar snapshotting before it's fully done makes the real time less than 5 seconds which doesn't help any.

Sound cues and animations? LOL. I can't necessarily stop it even if I start giving chase before it's started.

There's too much crowd control in the current kits for guard to see any nerfs at all. A single stun or silence would simply = death, especially in the initial engagement when people have everything up and are fishing for picks. Terrible idea.

Outside of obvious class balance issues, my main complaints are that I cannot tell the difference between an ally or enemy DRG ult or Bahamut, and purify going on cooldown and not WORKING, or cleansing the stun you are in and you get stunned again immediately because the resillience didn't actually apply. Also the UI is not giving as much information as I think it should be- especially concerning if you're going into Winners OT or Losers OT.

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Originally Posted by Lammas

I'm just gonna disagree with this. I've had so many situations where I notice see a someone is sprinting behind a corner clearly going for an elixir and even if I hit them with an instant cast immediately when getting line of sight and the castbar still being very much visible, the elixir will go through. The castbar snapshotting before it's fully done makes the real time less than 5 seconds which doesn't help any.

Sound cues and animations? LOL. I can't necessarily stop it even if I start giving chase before it's started.

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It's really only easy to stop in a void where you're not having to worry about being CC spammed and otherwise harassed by the other players on their team.

Getting CC'd twice is enough time to let an elixir go off...and that's ignoring that PLD can let people get away with it in the middle of an engagement by covering them.

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Originally Posted by Phentos

Guard does not need to be buffed, it needs to be nerfed to only affect LB's and the environmental hazards on CC maps, it's way too powerful as it is now. Or if anything I'd like to see more jobs have the ability to bypass or disable Guard due to how insanely powerful it is.

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Do you want people to lay down and die as soon someone touches them? Cause that will happen! Guard has saved me so many times for those monks and samurais or DOUBLE/TRIPLE dps jumping on me blowing EVERY dps and CC cooldown just to kill me as a healer that no recoup spamming would save me. Its also helpful to those people overextending their team or visa versa.

Making it only stop LB damage and environmental hazards would just make it worthless to a point you might as well just remove it from the skill bar, besides you can avoid the bombs from the lava map already, only those getting hit by the bombs are those in a Crowd control before it goes off or walking *INTO* right before it goes off.

Second, we don't need MORE jobs to bypass the guard, there's already 5, 3 of them is always played. Monk, ninja and mch, we don't need more.

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

Do you want people to lay down and die as soon someone touches them? Cause that will happen! Guard has saved me so many times for those monks and samurais or DOUBLE/TRIPLE dps jumping on me blowing EVERY dps and CC cooldown just to kill me as a healer that no recoup spamming would save me. Its also helpful to those people overextending their team or visa versa.

Making it only stop LB damage and environmental hazards would just make it worthless to a point you might as well just remove it from the skill bar, besides you can avoid the bombs from the lava map already, only those getting hit by the bombs are those in a Crowd control before it goes off or walking *INTO* right before it goes off.

Second, we don't need MORE jobs to bypass the guard, there's already 5, 3 of them is always played. Monk, ninja and mch, we don't need more.

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Sorry to tell you this, but if you are a healer getting focused down and piled by 3 DPS, you should not stand a chance. It's a part of PVP. When a DPS unloads their full burst on a healer only for them to just shrug it off and go on with their day, there's something fundamentally wrong with that. Even worse when it's THREE DPS using your example.

I've been playing PVP in various MMORPG's for a long time. In most of those games, any healer let alone any class in general would absolutely salivate to have an ability even half as powerful as Guard. 90% mitigation and full immunity on demand with only a 30 second cooldown that can be countered by only a few jobs is extremely powerful.

I'll concede this then... Instead Guard either gets nerfed to a 60 second cooldown, or its mitigation gets reduced to 75%. The full CC immunity is fine.