About the new 24 Man Alliance Raid.

11/10.

You guys should stick to original content. Hit a home run congratulations on the hard work! It shows.

Still waiting for that promised difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Wyssahtyn

Still waiting for that promised difficulty.

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It’s a step up from a Nier for sure. We should keep encouraging challenging content. Personally I died a few times on my first run and once on my second. I feel it is harder. It’s definitely not boring in my opinion.

Plus the artwork and the gods themselves are top notch.

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Originally Posted by Erinellza

It's definitely difficult for most players. I had to switch from RDM main to MCH because I was constantly at zero MP. The moment I Verraised the healers they died again. :') All I did was Verraise and Lucid... Not fun.

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I agree I can see wipes happening big time. Something I can’t say for nier. If anything I pray they don’t nerf it once the runs start becoming more casual.

I hope they keep it as is and respect the integrity of the 12 and not denigrate them into cannon fodder with time. If all content could be kept at this level of fun people wouldn’t be complaining as much.

Like yeah it’s nothing crazy but it’s definitely not a joke. You do have to respect most mechanics.

Remember these are casual world endgame, so they’re not meant to be extremes, but they should be dangerous.

Loved the Rhalgr fight. Can’t believe we actually got to fight on a platform that wasn’t a square or circle lol. They need to do more of these for sure.

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

Loved the Rhalgr fight. Can’t believe we actually got to fight on a platform that wasn’t a square or circle lol. They need to do more of these for sure.

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Yes. Finally they experiment with asymmetrical platforms. Good for them.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

It’s a step up from a Nier for sure. We should keep encouraging challenging content. Personally I died a few times on my first run and once on my second. I feel it is harder. It’s definitely not boring in my opinion.

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Sure, but like, the director said it'd be like Ivalice. Definitely wasn't. Only wiped once on second and fourth bosses respectively. Rabanastre would have raids disband on Hashmal and even Mateus when they first dropped. And while I died a fair bit, I attribute that more to trying to remember how to play Reaper mid raid (and therefore paying more attention to my hotbars than mechanics) since the devs decided to push those terrible SAM changes and ruined the job for me.

When I did this yesterday, half the raid was dying pretty regularly every fight. It was funny as hell. Good thing most of the dps decided to go as summoners and red mages. I went RDM just because I knew exactly what was gonna happen.

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Originally Posted by Wyssahtyn

Sure, but like, the director said it'd be like Ivalice. Definitely wasn't. Only wiped once on second and fourth bosses respectively. Rabanastre would have raids disband on Hashmal and even Mateus when they first dropped. And while I died a fair bit, I attribute that more to trying to remember how to play Reaper mid raid (and therefore paying more attention to my hotbars than mechanics) since the devs decided to push those terrible SAM changes and ruined the job for me.

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Storm blood had a lot more job nuance and job complexity going on. Now that things are more simple the same amount of mechanics simply feel easier.

I think it’s more that thinking back about that time period. For me adding back some spice to the jobs may also help. I mean my BLM was so immobile back then everything had to be seriously considered.

I feel it’s a good base. Some 24 mans may be harder, others around this level. Perhaps they can crank it up a notch if most players feel this way. I could get onboard with harder personally, I just don’t want the hoards of players crying that stuff is too hard either though.

For me causal content should be = as long as I have to pay attention or else I die I’m happy. What it shouldn’t be is a snooze fest where no one cares because nothing matters. That’s just boring, and people crying was in part to blame why the game became so brain dead.

Kicked my ass. Gonna practice some more today.

Honestly glad the Twelve are finally relevant, and we're finally out of the white/black/grey or rusty metal aesthetic. The final boss/area are also really what Ul'dah should've been like the whole time.

These encounters are a lot of fun compared to the Nier raids and I feel like SE is on the right track. Definitely my favorite part 6.1, along with character cards.

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Originally Posted by Wyssahtyn

Sure, but like, the director said it'd be like Ivalice. Definitely wasn't. Only wiped once on second and fourth bosses respectively. Rabanastre would have raids disband on Hashmal and even Mateus when they first dropped. And while I died a fair bit, I attribute that more to trying to remember how to play Reaper mid raid (and therefore paying more attention to my hotbars than mechanics) since the devs decided to push those terrible SAM changes and ruined the job for me.

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Difficulty at the individual level hasn't really gone down, it's more a matter of SE putting less mechanics that force the entire raid to wipe due to someone else's mistakes. It's simply easier for a handful of skilled players to carry and recover the raid.

Personally, I don't mind this form of difficulty because as much as I love TG Cid or Hashmal, the supposed 'difficulty' of those fights exclusively came from other people making mistakes on basic mechanics like the bleed bubbles or sand orb adds.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Yes. Finally they experiment with asymmetrical platforms. Good for them.

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Hahaaa, yes. This was the first thing i noticed. Not a square or a circle arena. But it is still an arena. They could get rid of it. :)



Cheers

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Originally Posted by Wyssahtyn

Still waiting for that promised difficulty.

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I saw the entire raid almost wipe multiple times and a few people carrying it. The mechanics are unforgiving if failed, but there's no big "raid wipe" mechanic from what I can tell. I died at least 2-3 times most bosses until I started noticing how they worked. I think the ONLY fight I didn't die in was Byregot, but that's because after seeing the individual platform sections moved I figured out how it worked. I won't deny Rhalgr, Nald'thal, and Azeyma took me a bit.

Casual here... Personally I found it nice, definitely gave me a good kickin' the first time around, not as much as what Ivalice did, even when I did it an entire expansion late, but comparatively it's harder than anything outside of the Ivalice track if I were to say so. It was cruel to see a balance mechanic in there that resulted in an instant wipe (laughing).

There's a raid wipe mechanic on the final boss.

I really enjoyed the fights. People were dying all over the place. I saw times on some bosses two whole groups were dead but the raid was able to recover. There were no wipes until the raid wipe mechanic happened on the final boss, and then the toxic people came out of the woodwork. Unfortunately, I think SE is just going to have to stop putting in any mechanics that can wipe the raid because someone's new and misses something because the children in the community can't handle it.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

I just don’t want the hoards of players crying that stuff is too hard either though.

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Alliance Raids are the one area of FFXIV where I see standard MMORPG toxicity on a somewhat regular basis
The problem isn't with content being too hard, its with people not being able to deal with wipes.
People generally lack the patience to explain and coach and instead lash out

This is so much less common in other areas of the game thankfully

But its a very tough thing to balance.
Hard content invites toxicity
Large group content invites toxicity
Hard alliance raids therefore really make this an issue

Difficulty is wonderful and all, but continually upping the ante on something meant to be cleared by the lowest denominator is going to create a lot of headaches down the line. The Ivalice raids already taught us how quickly drops and disbands start happening when a large group of people is expected to perform actual mechanics or deal with bosses hitting almost as hard as they did in ye olden days.

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Originally Posted by Broken_Wind

Alliance Raids are the one area of FFXIV where I see standard MMORPG toxicity on a somewhat regular basis
The problem isn't with content being too hard, its with people not being able to deal with wipes.
People generally lack the patience to explain and coach and instead lash out

This is so much less common in other areas of the game thankfully

But its a very tough thing to balance.
Hard content invites toxicity
Large group content invites toxicity
Hard alliance raids therefore really make this an issue

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I agree with all you said. That being said, I still want alliance raids on the harder side. They are the end game content for casuals so it stands to reason it should present a challenge a casual player should be able to overcome. And I have no doubts both are true for the moment, it is a decent challenge, and surely they can overcome it because its not too crazy.

This is where the community needs to decide the environment they want to foster and where we do our part. Don't be toxic yourself and if you see someone being overly toxic report them. They do ban people often and well, its a paid sub game so it hurts. I say hit em where it hurts because we shouldn't let the bad side of this community take our fun away from us.

The difficulty of them was pitched much better, IMO, for where normal content should be. I enjoyed the Rhalgr and Nald'Thal fights, especially Nald'Thal's pretty abstract design, and they made good use of an unorthodox platform with Rhalgr. The group I was in didn't wipe on any but Azeyma, but there were quite a few near wipes on the others. It's one of those things of getting used to the markers and ability names etc. Nothing any decently skilled casual won't be able to learn and adapt to. It shows what the devs are capable of if they want to be.

We went in with a mostly pre-made group comprised of well geared Savage players, and went in blind for fun.

It was really amazing because we managed to avoid a total wipe on the first three bosses through sheer bullheadedness and knowing to save LB3 for healers, with about a dozen of us on voice chat hashing out mechanics in real time.

4th boss wiped us because we were overthinking the scale mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

It’s a step up from a Nier for sure. We should keep encouraging challenging content. Personally I died a few times on my first run and once on my second. I feel it is harder. It’s definitely not boring in my opinion.

Plus the artwork and the gods themselves are top notch.

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You may have died but how many times did you actually wipe?

Individual player deaths are entirely inconsequential in 24 mans generally and until that changes I don't think I'll ever see these as difficult.

Looks nice, though.

Had my first run today, design and music are all very nice.

Lots of deaths and near-party-wipes, but always managed to pick each other back up preventing any full wipe.

Doesn't really seem much different difficulty-wise from when each of the Nier raids was new.

It makes so much difference if an alliance raid is fresh and new with most people being clueless about mechanics and just learning, or if most people have already been repeating it for weeks or months with fewer and fewer clueless players as time goes on.
Can really only compare their difficulty at the same point in time where the player base had the same amount of experience and repetition with each.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

You may have died but how many times did you actually wipe?

Individual player deaths are entirely inconsequential in 24 mans generally and until that changes I don't think I'll ever see these as difficult.

Looks nice, though.

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I don't really understand why people want to wipe in DF 24 man content, and I say this as someone who has spent hundreds if not thousands of hours wiping in EX/Savage/Ultimate.

I like going in and being personally challenged; Optimizing a melee job around something like Nald'Thals jumps, or Rhalgrs knockbacks can be personally challenging and rewarding without potentially wasting my time. I don't want to take over an hour every week to clear through the 24 man simply because some Duty Finder glue huffer is having a mortal struggle trying to wasd their character onto a glowing marker and drop a simple aoe.

It's interesting to see the various opinions here.

I ran it yesterday. I think we wiped once, nearly wiped several more times. I certainly died a ton. For me, it felt about the same difficulty as the NIER alliance raids (which is to say, constant chaos.) I did those once to see the story, then didn't really touch them again except the first wing near the end of ShB, or when the duty roulette put me into it. I expect I won't go back into this 24-man until much later, except when the next wings are released. I just don't find the overwhelming (to me) amount of mechanics very fun, and would much rather queue for CT or something.

Cool concept and story, though. I'm excited to find out more about the Twelve.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

You may have died but how many times did you actually wipe?

Individual player deaths are entirely inconsequential in 24 mans generally and until that changes I don't think I'll ever see these as difficult.

Looks nice, though.

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Once, balance mechanic. Honestly though I don’t feel the same way, if I die I’m responsible and it adds to my personal challenge to overcome and not be a dead weight.

So just because others carried doesn’t mean it’s not challenging since I’m not okay getting dragged to the finish line. Therefore I have to improve, memorize the mechanics etc…

I’m okay with total wipe mechanics too. But a lack there of doesn’t make it lack difficulty. Simply means you have to get good on a personal level. Or…. Be that person they had haul out in a body bag.

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Originally Posted by katz_brez

It's interesting to see the various opinions here.

I ran it yesterday. I think we wiped once, nearly wiped several more times. I certainly died a ton. For me, it felt about the same difficulty as the NIER alliance raids (which is to say, constant chaos.) I did those once to see the story, then didn't really touch them again except the first wing near the end of ShB, or when the duty roulette put me into it. I expect I won't go back into this 24-man until much later, except when the next wings are released. I just don't find the overwhelming (to me) amount of mechanics very fun, and would much rather queue for CT or something.

Cool concept and story, though. I'm excited to find out more about the Twelve.

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Oh boy. Unfortunately we are very different in that regard, I can see CT being cathartic now a days but it has the difficulty of cookie clicker and well… most people are watching TV or doing other things while they do CT in the background, so no one’s really there. That just doesn’t sound like fun to me. But I respect a different view point.

I will add though CT wasn’t always like that. Scylla would wipe entire parties for one missed purple orb, not being in a puddle for flare Was insta death. During glasya (the guy that does nothing now) people had to stop the bits from powering him and tanks had to grab some adds and people had to jump into platforms.

Like the original vision the developer had when that came out wasn’t the hollow shell you see today.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Once, balance mechanic. Honestly though I don’t feel the same way, if I die I’m responsible and it adds to my personal challenge to overcome and not be a dead weight.

So just because others carried doesn’t mean it’s not challenging since I’m not okay getting dragged to the finish line. Therefore I have to improve, memorize the mechanics etc…

I’m okay with total wipe mechanics too. But a lack there of doesn’t make it lack difficulty. Simply means you have to get good on a personal level. Or…. Be that person they had haul out in a body bag.

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Im a big fan of fights like the first one in Dun Scaith. I think this fits what you are describing well

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Originally Posted by Wyssahtyn

Still waiting for that promised difficulty.

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I don't know, I've cleared Savage tiers and an Ultimate and I dropped out after the first boss because I was dying so much I was dead weight in the party.

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Originally Posted by katz_brez

It's interesting to see the various opinions here.

I ran it yesterday. I think we wiped once, nearly wiped several more times. I certainly died a ton. For me, it felt about the same difficulty as the NIER alliance raids (which is to say, constant chaos.) I did those once to see the story, then didn't really touch them again except the first wing near the end of ShB, or when the duty roulette put me into it. I expect I won't go back into this 24-man until much later, except when the next wings are released. I just don't find the overwhelming (to me) amount of mechanics very fun, and would much rather queue for CT or something.

Cool concept and story, though. I'm excited to find out more about the Twelve.

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The different opinions are why its difficult to design content like this. People want different things

People need to accept that not all content is for them, and at the same time SE should try to make some content to appeal to various playstyles, within reason.

Right now I feel what is lacking most is more interesting 4 man content, but thats just me. I dont want mythic+ with its extra level of stress, but there is a middle ground

I don't get why people hate the nier raids so much :/ they are my favorites. Tho this raid was pretty good if it continues to be this good it might be my favorite series.

In terms of aesthetics and mechanics I think this is already shaping up to be my favorite Alliance raid series.

There's a certain sense of wonder I got from it that I did not get from the first raid in Ivalice or Nier due to how heavily derivative both were from their source material.

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

I don't get why people hate the nier raids so much :/ they are my favorites. Tho this raid was pretty good if it continues to be this good it might be my favorite series.

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I didn't mind the fights themselves, but my issue with the series is that we had a full set of alliance raids built around a crossover. The story has absolutely nothing to do with the world of XIV and it felt really out of place IMO. And to boot, it spawned all sorts of ugly questionable hairstyles and outfits. :X

I love the fights! You can see the raid/dungeon encounter design team growth with this and the revamped dungeons. It almost got my daughter to finally try out the game. The best part was just signing up just to figure out the mechanics.

But one thing I'll say. I don't know if Soken is secretly Indian, but his Indian music slaps so hard, especially "In the Balance".

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Difficulty at the individual level hasn't really gone down, it's more a matter of SE putting less mechanics that force the entire raid to wipe due to someone else's mistakes. It's simply easier for a handful of skilled players to carry and recover the raid.

Personally, I don't mind this form of difficulty because as much as I love TG Cid or Hashmal, the supposed 'difficulty' of those fights exclusively came from other people making mistakes on basic mechanics like the bleed bubbles or sand orb adds.

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Prenerfed TG CID was some of the most fun I’ve had in the entire game. It made me feel alive! I’d love to have more content like that. Once you figured out the tells it was pretty easy…but people seemed to have so much trouble with it for some reason.

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

Prenerfed TG CID was some of the most fun I’ve had in the entire game. It made me feel alive! I’d love to have more content like that. Once you figured out the tells it was pretty easy…but people seemed to have so much trouble with it for some reason.

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They didnt. At least not initially when the wave of super fans/hard cores were carrying and communicating in the chats organizing the run. It was after a while when only casual players that were running it had no clue and wiped endlessly that people started complaining. OG Thunder God Cid was not a hard fight.

But it was engaging, and it was fun. But yes, his mechanics had raid wide implications, which hopefully with a personal responsibility approach less torches and pitchforks arrive at the devs gates with this raid series. Please Devs, keep it engaging and challenging.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

They didnt. At least not initially when the wave of super fans/hard cores were carrying and communicating in the chats organizing the run. It was after a while when only casual players that were running it had no clue and wiped endlessly that people started complaining. OG Thunder God Cid was not a hard fight.

But it was engaging, and it was fun. But yes, his mechanics had raid wide implications, which hopefully with a personal responsibility approach less torches and pitchforks arrive at the devs gates with this raid series. Please Devs, keep it engaging and challenging.

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There is an allergy to communicating within the broader community. I don't see it as much ever since I moved back to an EU server, as typically people do communicate here, but there are occasions where people rush in with a bunch of new sprouts and are surprised when they wipe. A lot of this content is manageable if you share strategies etc. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the level of difficulty of some of these fights in some MSQ trials, to suit the type of threats the WoL is dealing with. I do wish they'd find a way to offer an optional easy mode for normal content (particularly trials), e.g. via the trusts, and allow the DF versions to be better, but instead trying to make the instances trust-compatible seems to be resulting in the mechanics becoming even more diluted in the DF version... whatever the business rationale for it, it doesn't help with my immersion, especially when optional casual content like this showcases so much more creativity. I think simply insisting that because the MSQ is mandatory, all associated content has to be easy, is a lazy approach with all the tools available to a modern MMO.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

There is an allergy to communicating within the broader community. I don't see it as much ever since I moved back to an EU server, as typically people do communicate here, but there are occasions where people rush in with a bunch of new sprouts and are surprised when they wipe. A lot of this content is manageable if you share strategies etc. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the level of difficulty of some of these fights in some MSQ trials, to suit the type of threats the WoL is dealing with. I do wish they'd find a way to offer an optional easy mode for normal content (particularly trials), e.g. via the trusts, and allow the DF versions to be better, but instead trying to make the instances trust-compatible seems to be resulting in the mechanics becoming even more diluted in the DF version... whatever the business rationale for it, it doesn't help with my immersion, especially when optional casual content like this showcases so much more creativity. I think simply insisting that because the MSQ is mandatory, all associated content has to be easy, is a lazy approach with all the tools available to a modern MMO.

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100% The trust duties should be brain dead and easy. White noise. Relaxing, for the enjoyment of people that don't enjoy adrenaline. And then.... They should just slap a disclaimer in the DF saying players will be expected to communicate and work together to solve multiplayer duties and by all means ratchet up the difficulty.

With this approach personally raid wipe mechanics like TGC (Ivalice had) should be pretty common place, because by signing up for multiplayer you should be able to communicate. Granted, this stuff shouldn't be Extreme/Savage with heavy damage checks, after all it is normal content. So Ivalice and pre nerf Castrum Lacus Litore were good examples of the difficulty we should honestly expect from an adventure game that promises dangers and treasures.

The entire premise of this game is that Eorzea IS a dangerous place. And you are an adventurer TURNED ON by these dangers. So please, lets just be true to the game and give ppl an easy way out. I want quality, no quantity of multiplayer duties.

I really enjoyed the raid myself. The fights were fun and dynamic if not super hard outside of the first run (died like 8 times first try and only once my second try). I loved having an asymmetrical arena on Rhalgr to deal with.

Story wise we didn't get much but a teaser, so hoping 6.3 and 6.5 really expand on the little they gave us. I'm looking forward to fighting the other 8.

The first tier of a 24 man is usually the easiest, so we may see harder content in the next two wings. I'm sure everyone remembers Mhachi and Dun Scaith (people STILL die on the latter quite a bit), Thundergod Cid, etc.

Remember, though, that Alliance Raids in the end are meant to be a catch up mechanic for casual players to slowly upgrade their gear to current savage Ilvl before the next savage tier comes out. It shouldn't be so hard that people don't want to do it. As far as I'm concerned, I need to pay attention to the fights for the most part so I'm happy with that, even if they aren't super hard.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

11/10.

You guys should stick to original content. Hit a home run congratulations on the hard work! It shows.

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Yes! Couldn't agree more. This 24 man was so fun. The story is excellent so far and I cannot wait to get more. The fights were fun and also the perfect amount of difficult, especially for casual players. Everything about this 24 man is amazing. Even the gear is lovely.