6.1 and the frustration with job changes or: how I started worrying about XIV patches

There's been a lot said recently by the player base around changes focusing around certain jobs and there's one thing that bothers me more than anything about all this: the timing.

A patch release shouldn't contain drastic job changes unless the job is fundamentally broken and beyond fixing with simple number adjustments.

There's a few core reasons to take this approach but it really boils down to respecting the players time.

Since subbing at the start of ARR, I have lauded Yoshi-P and the team for respecting our time. They designed the game to be played to a point where you can take breaks between content patches after all.

Additionally, they didn't make sweeping job changes post expansion launch unless something was really broken and even then I can't think of many instances of it happening.

Now we have 6.1, and while I can't speak for the NIN community, as a SAM main these are pretty substantial changes to make for a job that wasn't in need of changing.

From Kaitens removal (loss of job fantasy elements and a button that just felt good to press), to the guaranteed crits (less party synergy), to damage being spread across more moves (for more "consistent" dps). These are big changes which alter the core identity of SAM. Naturally this will turn players off to the job, including myself.

So how does this disrespect the players time?

Well, after I got out of my depressed state of losing the fun version of Samurai, I decided to go back to my main prior to SAM . . . Ninja.

With that . . . all these months I spent post EW launch have largely been wasted on putting time, effort and, most importantly, gear into a job I no longer want to play.

It sucks. It's frustrating. It's not fun.

Had these changes been a part of a samurai rework for EW release, it would have been a very different story. At least then I could say "wow, this isn't for me. I'll put effort into something else". Instead, we're blind sided and told "just try it and if you don't like it maybe things will change in the future".

This is something we shouldn't have to expect or tolerate.

With all that said, it is my hope that the main take away from the backlash of these 6.1 changes is that these sorts of alterations should only happen during an expansions launch (again, baring something that is so fundamentally broken that it needs emergency fixing).

Please Yoshi-P, don't make us fear every point release as a possible point where our favorite jobs become something we no longer enjoy. Please respect your players and their time again.

Welcome to a massive multi online game, where you are not the only one playing a class/job.

It makes no sense to change smth only just to disturb players. There will be many other people happy about the changes.


And yes, playing a subscription game always means change. Everything is changing

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Originally Posted by Varilyon

Welcome to a massive multi online game, where you are not the only one playing a class/job.

It makes no sense to change smth only just to disturb players. There will be many other people happy about the changes.


And yes, playing a subscription game always means change. Everything is changing

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I'm not against change, but change for the sake of change mid expansion for jobs that don't need the changes is what I am against.

If 7.0 rolled around and SAM was something I wasn't interested in any longer I wouldn't have as big an issue with it.

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Originally Posted by Varilyon

Welcome to a massive multi online game, where you are not the only one playing a class/job.

It makes no sense to change smth only just to disturb players. There will be many other people happy about the changes.

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You say that, but all three communities have been in arms about the changes to both SAM and NIN—to the point that JP was demanding the person in charge of making said changes come forward and explain them during the Patch Notes reading on Twitch. The common sentiment that I’ve gathered from it all is “what was even the point of these changes” and “who even asked for them”.

It’s rare for all three communities to be up in arms over the same thing at the same time. And the changes to SAM and NIN—as well as the lack of meaningful changes to jobs like MCH—are slowly starting to highlight the problems that have already been present within the other jobs and roles.

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Originally Posted by Varilyon

Welcome to a massive multi online game, where you are not the only one playing a class/job.

It makes no sense to change smth only just to disturb players. There will be many other people happy about the changes.


And yes, playing a subscription game always means change. Everything is changing

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Yes and trying to smooth out the discontent by generalizing the change as acceptable across a greater audience does not resolve the issue. Blanket statements don't work.

*looks at OPs Job*
Ah a Samurai, welcome to the guaranteed crit fold. Despised by DNC, SCH, DRG alike.

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Originally Posted by Varilyon

Welcome to a massive multi online game, where you are not the only one playing a class/job.

It makes no sense to change smth only just to disturb players. There will be many other people happy about the changes.


And yes, playing a subscription game always means change. Everything is changing

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Wow another person being dismissive. As far as I have read across several communities, it's almost unanimous that no one liked or even asked for the changes.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

*looks at OPs Job*
Ah a Samurai, welcome to the guaranteed crit fold. Despised by DNC, SCH, DRG alike.

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Not anymore haha, dropping it for NIN which will be 90 in a few days. So I will be loved by all . . . right? ;D

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Originally Posted by KurenXIV

Had these changes been a part of a samurai rework for EW release, it would have been a very different story. At least then I could say "wow, this isn't for me. I'll put effort into something else". Instead, we're blind sided and told "just try it and if you don't like it maybe things will change in the future".

This is something we shouldn't have to expect or tolerate.

With all that said, it is my hope that the main take away from the backlash of these 6.1 changes is that these sorts of alterations should only happen during an expansions launch (again, baring something that is so fundamentally broken that it needs emergency fixing).

Please Yoshi-P, don't make us fear every point release as a possible point where our favorite jobs become something we no longer enjoy. Please respect your players and their time again.

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I agree. Presenting changes in such a tight timeframe gives little room for feedback. The devs may be perplexed at the seemingly sudden backlash, but "blindsided" is exactly the word I'd use to describe how these sudden changes left us feeling. On top of that, we feel unheard just as tank and healer mains have for years.

Late ShB's MNK changes were so disappointing for myself and many others, then they released it in its current NIN/MNK hybrid state for EW. We were further disappointed, but this was it's new starting point. I thought, "I miss the early ShB MNK, but maybe it'll change and play more true to MNK in time." SAM losing Hissatsu: Seigan and Merciful Eyes at the beginning of EW was likewise disappointing as countering was one of my favorite aspects of SAM, but I was glad to see the rest of the job still intact. I can't say the same for these 6.1 changes. They're abrupt, perplexing, and feel out of touch with the community.

Can the same degree of mindful development that BLM receives be applied to the rest of the jobs? If no one in charge of job changes understands how a particular job plays (or even enjoys playing it for that matter), can the community—those who main it, not just those who play it casually or to cap everything—be sought out on these changes?

We're asking for two things: meaningful changes and to be part of the process of reaching them. Please consider this.

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Originally Posted by whitemoonflower

Can the same degree of mindful development that BLM receives be applied to the rest of the jobs? If no one in charge of job changes understands how a particular job plays (or even enjoys playing it for that matter), can the community—those who main it, not just those who play it casually or to cap everything—be sought out on these changes?

We're asking for two things: meaningful changes and to be part of the process of reaching them. Please consider this.

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I won't argue about whether those changes are good or bad, I occasionally play NIN but always hated SAM, so idk.

But what you think about is an utopia, there is no one out there that would be able to do that in a way that makes the community like it. I don't know what the meaning of those changes were (Most probable guess : run homogeneization), but say we ask 100 parsers how to adjust jobs. They might have ideas that feel good, but will they be balanced ? Will they really feel good on the long term, when you don't get THAT crit, or have .01 too much GCD and your whole rotation gets thrown overboard ? Won't those parsers be hated by the community ?

I'm not saying the changes they made are good, or even purposeful. I'm just saying reworks like that will always be criticized, and it's no surprise the community as a whole despise it, juste like they despise the SMN rework, or pretty much every rework ever. Let's wait and see, and discuss once we all know what exactly we're talking about.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

I won't argue about whether those changes are good or bad, I occasionally play NIN but always hated SAM, so idk.

But what you think about is an utopia, there is no one out there that would be able to do that in a way that makes the community like it. I don't know what the meaning of those changes were (Most probable guess : run homogeneization), but say we ask 100 parsers how to adjust jobs. They might have ideas that feel good, but will they be balanced ? Will they really feel good on the long term, when you don't get THAT crit, or have .01 too much GCD and your whole rotation gets thrown overboard ? Won't those parsers be hated by the community ?

I'm not saying the changes they made are good, or even purposeful. I'm just saying reworks like that will always be criticized, and it's no surprise the community as a whole despise it, juste like they despise the SMN rework, or pretty much every rework ever. Let's wait and see, and discuss once we all know what exactly we're talking about.

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I don't really like that thing, BUT HERE'S MY OPINION ANYWAY! -kids in 2022

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

I didn't expressed my opinion on the changes, I expressed my opinion on the community's reaction. Must be hard being an adult and not knowing how to read.

Don't disrespect me because you're unhappy with your personal toy, sweetheart

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I didn't specify that you were talking about the changes. I was the one talking about the community's reaction and how obtuse people are being.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

I won't argue about whether those changes are good or bad, I occasionally play NIN but always hated SAM, so idk.

But what you think about is an utopia, there is no one out there that would be able to do that in a way that makes the community like it. I don't know what the meaning of those changes were (Most probable guess : run homogeneization), but say we ask 100 parsers how to adjust jobs. They might have ideas that feel good, but will they be balanced ? Will they really feel good on the long term, when you don't get THAT crit, or have .01 too much GCD and your whole rotation gets thrown overboard ? Won't those parsers be hated by the community ?

I'm not saying the changes they made are good, or even purposeful. I'm just saying reworks like that will always be criticized, and it's no surprise the community as a whole despise it, juste like they despise the SMN rework, or pretty much every rework ever. Let's wait and see, and discuss once we all know what exactly we're talking about.

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No one asked for an utopia. They wanted a clear and concise line of communication regarding these changes as well as a confirmation regarding their thoughts.

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Originally Posted by KoS_Jooken

I didn't specify that you were talking about the changes. I was the one talking about the community's reaction and how obtuse people are being.

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Ah, sorry I misunderstood you, I'm used to people being overly aggressive ! I'll delete that message.

And yes, Curaga, that's why I only quoted part of whitemoonflower's message. I want that clear line of communication as well, but their idea of people from the community helping with the changes seem utopic to me.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

Ah, sorry I misunderstood you, I'm used to people being overly aggressive ! I'll delete that message.

And yes, Curaga, that's why I only quoted part of whitemoonflower's message. I want that clear line of communication as well, but their idea of people from the community helping with the changes seem utopic to me.

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Honestly, we should strive for utopic standards but it's highly unlikely to happen given the how faith in humanity is either usually shattered, exploded or just plain annihilated. To take things at a black and white extreme is just going to paint your message the wrong way no matter what.

Unless you like watching the world burn.

Then you're kind of a psychopath.

"Great Moogly Mog, kupo. It's all gone to fecal matter."

I believe they said they will explain the reason for the changes we got in this patch. If I heard correctly I believe Yoshi P also mentioned something about crit synergy in the patch reading. I think if the devs are able to explain the reasons and give us an idea of where they are wanting to go with the jobs that would be great and give us an opportunity to give feed back on this direction if it may be going the wrong route. I think getting an answer as to why these changes are happening in the middle of an expansion instead of towards the end or at the start of the new expansion should be answered as well.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I believe they said they will explain the reason for the changes we got in this patch. If I heard correctly I believe Yoshi P also mentioned something about crit synergy in the patch reading. I think if the devs are able to explain the reasons and give us an idea of where they are wanting to go with the jobs that would be great and give us an opportunity to give feed back on this direction if it may be going the wrong route. I think getting an answer as to why these changes are happening in the middle of an expansion instead of towards the end or at the start of the new expansion should be answered as well.

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We are willing to hear out the reasoning behind the changes but we are also asking that these changes not go into effect. There is an uproar across all three communities regarding this change which is said to be "unwanted" because this change comes at a time where a major change to how a class plays does not usually happen. Reducing class complexity while retaining overall performance does not mean it is the best change which is why we are against it.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

I won't argue about whether those changes are good or bad, I occasionally play NIN but always hated SAM, so idk.

But what you think about is an utopia, there is no one out there that would be able to do that in a way that makes the community like it. I don't know what the meaning of those changes were (Most probable guess : run homogeneization), but say we ask 100 parsers how to adjust jobs. They might have ideas that feel good, but will they be balanced ? Will they really feel good on the long term, when you don't get THAT crit, or have .01 too much GCD and your whole rotation gets thrown overboard ? Won't those parsers be hated by the community ?

I'm not saying the changes they made are good, or even purposeful. I'm just saying reworks like that will always be criticized, and it's no surprise the community as a whole despise it, juste like they despise the SMN rework, or pretty much every rework ever. Let's wait and see, and discuss once we all know what exactly we're talking about.

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I see where you're coming from, but I don't find asking for better communication between the development team and the community to be "utopian". As OP originally stated, proposing changes like these in a timeframe that allows for feedback to be properly reviewed could prevent these situations from happening to such an extent. Yoshi-P was even quoted here saying, "So I would appreciate it if you can send us your feedback to the official forums so that we can look into it. The people in the community team will gather and round up the feedback and report to the team," in regards to the Hrothgar hairstyles issue. But it's a matter of acting on those words.

Not everyone plays each job the same; I understand. But despite there being multiple playstyles for SAM, the vast majority of SAM mains agreed that removing Hissatsu: Kaiten was a bad idea. Opinions may differ on some matters, but they could at least assess the general consensus before removing abilities and gutting entire rotations.

I wonder how good of a data analysis team they have and generally how much data they collect and look at.
Because it seems to me that instead of listening to written feedback on social media they rather look at number of failed rotations, wipes, deaths, duration of dungeons etc.
They see that the majority of players press completely wrong buttons and get hit by mechanics when doing a reopener.
It seems to me they are just analyzing that and looking for ways to make it easier for more people to play good.

If you run roulettes daily you will see that the majority of players are very very bad. In almost every run the healer or tank do more damage than someone with dps role, or you will often see healers spamming gcd heals etc.

So yeah I know why they're doing it, anyway I am with you guys, I hate it too and I want to have options to improve my rotation even after the first month of playing a job...

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Originally Posted by whitemoonflower

Not everyone plays each job the same; I understand. But despite there being multiple playstyles for SAM, the vast majority of SAM mains agreed that removing Hissatsu: Kaiten was a bad idea. Opinions may differ on some matters, but they could at least assess the general consensus before removing abilities and gutting entire rotations.

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I don't want to minimize the removal of Kaiten, but it's not just that. The guaranteed crits and flattening of the DPS range are also terrible. There is virtually no more job fantasy expression in SAM. It has been thoroughly gutted in the same vein as AST, in a way that deprives it of almost any core job identity (you could argue the same for MCH and DRK, but I think those at least what was lost was supplanted with alternative job identities). The whole point of both AST and SAM, more than most other jobs, was variability, and now they just feel like high APM with none of the fun slot machine payoff.

The way this is going, I foresee procs getting slowly removed as well. Verfire/Verstone are bloating my hotbars and don't pop when I need them so they should just be autocombos off Verthunder/Veraero. It's so simple it's beautiful, no more thinking needed.

I know I keep saying that this is to be anticipated because FFXIV is very much riding the wave of casual-friendly gameplay. But it's still extremely disappointing to watch because the expansion job designs have been outstanding compared to the base game jobs. In the same vein that WHM, BLM, WAR, PLD, BRD, DRG, (and now SMN) are all very classic, easy to understand concepts for newbs, DRK, AST, MCH, RDM, SAM, GNB, SGE all have so much potential as more complex jobs for players who like a bit of challenge. And it is continually being stripped away in favor of a mentality that *every* job should be baby's first PS4 crossbar, and on several levels I think that is bad design that will come back to haunt the devs. We need some big brain jobs and BLM does not cut it.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I don't want to minimize the removal of Kaiten, but it's not just that. The guaranteed crits and flattening of the DPS range are also terrible. There is virtually no more job fantasy expression in SAM. It has been thoroughly gutted in the same vein as AST, in a way that deprives it of almost any core job identity (you could argue the same for MCH and DRK, but I think those at least what was lost was supplanted with alternative job identities). The whole point of both AST and SAM, more than most other jobs, was variability, and now they just feel like high APM with none of the fun slot machine payoff.

The way this is going, I foresee procs getting slowly removed as well. Verfire/Verstone are bloating my hotbars and don't pop when I need them so they should just be autocombos off Verthunder/Veraero. It's so simple it's beautiful, no more thinking needed.

I know I keep saying that this is to be anticipated because FFXIV is very much riding the wave of casual-friendly gameplay. But it's still extremely disappointing to watch because the expansion job designs have been outstanding compared to the base game jobs. In the same vein that WHM, BLM, WAR, PLD, BRD, DRG, (and now SMN) are all very classic, easy to understand concepts for newbs, DRK, AST, MCH, RDM, SAM, GNB, SGE all have so much potential as more complex jobs for players who like a bit of challenge. And it is continually being stripped away in favor of a mentality that *every* job should be baby's first PS4 crossbar, and on several levels I think that is bad design that will come back to haunt the devs. We need some big brain jobs and BLM does not cut it.

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Kaiten is far from the only issue SAM is facing, but I was addressing the notion of varying playstyles obfuscating player opinions. Kaiten is a massive point of consensus among SAM mains and in the community as a whole, so to say, "They shouldn't ask SAM mains for feedback since some play 'Slow SAM' some play 'Fast SAM'," doesn't add up.

On to your points, I agree and even made my own thread regarding these issues last week. It may seem like a good direction to take, but do they realize all they're sacrificing in the process? Identity, lore, rotations that flow while engaging the player: is it all worth discarding just to be more "casual-friendly"?

Really SE? No RDM potency buffs or lengthening Embolden. We get a shortened animation for Displacement...smh

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Originally Posted by Varilyon

Welcome to a massive multi online game, where you are not the only one playing a class/job.

It makes no sense to change smth only just to disturb players. There will be many other people happy about the changes.


And yes, playing a subscription game always means change. Everything is changing

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The people playing the job are happy. Lets make some changes so the people who arent playing the job might be happy and the people who regularly play it are pissed.

Makes no sense. These changes to SAM dont even seem thoughtful. After playing around with the change it seems my actions per minute went up since I just spam shinten now. I am all for thoughtful change that has both newer players and veteran players in mind.