SAM changes - I don’t mind it

Afternoon everyone,

Hope we’re all thrilled for next week’s 6.1!

I’ve noticed the trend in which most players are adamant about “Hissatu: Kaiten” being removed.

Personally I am far pleased at the Dev’s approach in updating certain job’s stats & leaning towards simplicity to have less abilities & feel more pragmatic, therefore helps to feel more immersive with the game & not feel as overwhelming by the number of abilities which hoards the hotbar.

I may be the only one who praises this approach & I truly hope they will do some for the rest of the others jobs as it is unnecessary to have cluttered abilities & instead remove some in turn to upgrade job’s stats without killing job identity.

SAM is my 2nd main & I am hyped for it.

Why are certain portion of players opposed to it?

Personally I don’t see it killing its job identity as SAM already has enough abilities as it is.

PS: Not trolling nor stirring up the flame. Just felt getting it out of my chest as I actually support this

You're about to get flamed on bro, good luck lol.

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Originally Posted by Vencio

Afternoon everyone,

Hope we’re all thrilled for next week’s 6.1!

I’ve noticed the trend in which most players are adamant about “Hissatu: Kaiten” being removed.

Personally I am far pleased at the Dev’s approach in updating certain job’s stats & leaning towards simplicity to have less abilities & feel more pragmatic, therefore helps to feel more immersive with the game & not feel as overwhelming by the number of abilities which hoards the hotbar.

I may be the only one who praises this approach & I truly hope they will do some for the rest of the others jobs as it is unnecessary to have cluttered abilities & instead remove some in turn to upgrade job’s stats without killing job identity.

SAM is my 2nd main & I am hyped for it.

Why are certain portion of players opposed to it?

Personally I don’t see it killing its job identity as SAM already has enough abilities as it is.

PS: Not trolling nor stirring up the flame. Just felt getting it out of my chest as I actually support this

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I'll bite.

Well, I can explain why people are opposed to it, but seeing as you have sam as your 2nd main you should be aware of this.
When it comes to button bloat on Samurai, there are a lot of other choices or buttons that could be combined or removed that would have less impact on its over all game play. instead there was only 1 button that was removed, which hardly even addresses a button bloat issue, and the button that was removed was the only skill that tied the two samurai gauges together, and was 1 of 2 kenki spender skills you use actively. So with the removal of this, you now have 1 skill that uses kenki. Classes that have gauges devoted to 1 button is nothing but screen clutter and button bloat. It looks almost like the devs looked thtough logs and saw a button that was being pressed often and said just remove that and it will reduce button bloat with out any sort of thought behind it.

PS: I don't believe you are not trolling or stirring up flame, I think you are another one of the toxic positive casual fan boys that believes your spokes person Yoshi P can do no wrong. Which that is all he is I wouldn't even call him a director anymore at this point.

Probably because Kaiten is/was the only thing keeping Samurai from devolving into mindless shinten spam, Iaijutsu auto-crits removing synergy from Dragoon and Scholar's own crit buffs, other buttons that could have easily been consolidated (Hissatsu: Guren and Senei, Shoha I and II, Tsubame-gaeshi, Ikishoten/Ogi Namikiri and Kaeshi: Namikiri), and most importantly the loss of yet another cool animation.

The worst part of all is it doesn't even address bloat issues (skill bloat, action bloat, whatever the hell they want to call it nowadays) because it'll just be filled with even more Shintens.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I'll bite.

Well, I can explain why people are opposed to it, but seeing as you have sam as your 2nd main you should be aware of this.
When it comes to button bloat on Samurai, there are a lot of other choices or buttons that could be combined or removed that would have less impact on its over all game play. instead there was only 1 button that was removed, which hardly even addresses a button bloat issue, and the button that was removed was the only skill that tied the two samurai gauges together, and was 1 of 2 kenki spender skills you use actively. So with the removal of this, you now have 1 skill that uses kenki. Classes that have gauges devoted to 1 button is nothing but screen clutter and button bloat. It looks almost like the devs looked thtough logs and saw a button that was being pressed often and said just remove that and it will reduce button bloat with out any sort of thought behind it.

PS: I don't believe you are not trolling or stirring up flame, I think you are another one of the toxic positive casual fan boys that believes your spokes person Yoshi P can do no wrong. Which that is all he is I wouldn't even call him a director anymore at this point.

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Thank you for your ellaborate response & I can some insight as to how beneficial it was for some players.

Although I disagree with the entirely of it as the Devs are boosting our criticals & that just balances it out needlessly speaking.

PS: I have no idea about “positive toxic” mindset. A post is a post subject to anything & truly I am not alluring to any toxicity of any manner. Sorry to dissapoint.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Probably because Kaiten is/was the only thing keeping Samurai from devolving into mindless shinten spam, Iaijutsu auto-crits removing synergy from Dragoon and Scholar's own crit buffs, other buttons that could have easily been consolidated (Hissatsu: Guren and Senei, Shoha I and II, Tsubame-gaeshi, Ikishoten/Ogi Namikiri and Kaeshi: Namikiri), and most importantly the loss of yet another cool animation.

The worst part of all is it doesn't even address bloat issues (skill bloat, action bloat, whatever the hell they want to call it nowadays) because it'll just be filled with even more Shintens.

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Now this is more constructive than the previous post!

I am with you in consolidating rather than remove & that persuades me to believe there’s other possible avenues as opposed to remove.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

You're about to get flamed on bro, good luck lol.

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It's okay, he can just pop Third Eye and respond with a Hissatsu: Seigan- wait a minute.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...52/698/aa1.jpg

Please understand that it's not even just about Kaiten's removal at this point, it's just the latest. If there is something that even has the hint of a failure state, it is being slowly removed from the game. The developers very rarely add things that make jobs more engaging or more fun for it's core audience, compared to destroying elements of jobs entirely, and would rather remove to improve.

Some of the things being removed are things that people liked a lot, and there is zero faith any of those things we liked about the game are ever going to return. What SAM players are dealing with right now are what Tanks and Healers have been having to put up with for years, as the entire combat loop stagnates. I don't feel like any job has been "improved". Just which job has had the least ripped out of it overtime.

Doesn't help that rather than people empathize that there are certain sides of the game that have been around since before the population explosions have started to feel alienated, instead we get screamed at to unsubscribe and how whatever we're saying has no merit. There's a lot of anger right now, a lot of strawmanning.

This gutting happens again, and again, and more of us actually will leave and then you won't see topics like this anymore, since we will all have given up on the game, like how SE has given up on having engaging and sensible job design.

There's nothing wrong with that, of course. Game will still work for most, which is most important. It's just sad for people who liked how things were and where things could have gone. I'm just tired of having fun things being taken away from me.

People act like this is new.

They completely changed warrior within a patch or 2 of the game launching because "people didn't understand how to play it"

What did they do? Made it more like PLD.

People act like things getting nerfed is new. Coil was nerfed every new tier.


This isn't new. This has been the games design the entire time.

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Originally Posted by Vencio

Why are certain portion of players opposed to it?

Personally I don’t see it killing its job identity as SAM already has enough abilities as it is.

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Basically, it's not about making the job too simple, it's more that it's a bad change that shows the developers don't understand how the job works. This last part is important, because many jobs have felt the same (in particular healers), and changes like this sort of prove it's true and indicate we're heading in a bad direction where jobs are being reworked by unqualified members of the dev team.

Kaiten gives the Kenki gauge purpose. Without it, the gauge is basically the Shinten gauge and Shinten is something you spam mindlessly while it's active. Meanwhile Shoha/Shoha II and Senai/Guren are definitely button bloat without a reason and could be pruned to a single ability with fall-off aoe damage.

Guaranteed crits are problematic because every class is adjusted to a 2 minute burst window now and since raid buffs stack multiplicatively, these burst windows are extremely important for dps. SAMs hardest hitting abilities no longer benefit from Crit Rate buffs such as Chain Stratagem, Devilment or Litany. They don't actually seem to be aware of that.

So while to the untrained eye, it seems like it's not a big deal (and it's good you brought up the thread to ask about it), anyone who understands the class indepth can see these changes are bad. The fact that a multi-billion dollar company in one of the most popular MMO's in the world is using unqualified testers in to make bad class changes is a concern.

i like the new changes, why should i have to press a button everyone i wanna unleash my 3 seal ability just so i can make it a bit stronger when the ability can just be stronger on its own, as a controller user iam already forced to leave off some abilities from my bars so any bloat reduction is a good thing, i dont wanna have to swap between 3+ hotbars just to do a rotation this is not my idea of fun

The points people made are in their respective threads, do your own due diligence.

I mean I hope it feels good to admit you can't empathize with the other people.

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Originally Posted by ryouma17

i like the new changes, why should i have to press a button everyone i wanna unleash my 3 seal ability just so i can make it a bit stronger when the ability can just be stronger on its own, as a controller user iam already forced to leave off some abilities from my bars so any bloat reduction is a good thing, i dont wanna have to swap between 3+ hotbars just to do a rotation this is not my idea of fun

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Every time I see this I'm just left wondering if I'm somehow the only controller user that even knows what the WXHB is. As if double tapping L2/R2 or L2+R2/R2+L2 to access three additional hotbars on the fly is some sort of forbidden technique.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Every time I see this I'm just left wondering if I'm somehow the only controller user that even knows what the WXHB is. As if double tapping L2/R2 or L2+R2/R2+L2 to access three additional hotbars on the fly is some sort of forbidden technique.

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Not everyone is able to use that feature well. I certainly can't. I use a keyboard for that reason, but we're still limited on actual usable space.

Shouldn't need to play a piano to do combat lol

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Originally Posted by ryouma17

i like the new changes, why should i have to press a button everyone i wanna unleash my 3 seal ability just so i can make it a bit stronger when the ability can just be stronger on its own, as a controller user iam already forced to leave off some abilities from my bars so any bloat reduction is a good thing, i dont wanna have to swap between 3+ hotbars just to do a rotation this is not my idea of fun

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Precisely my thoughts!!

The over hoarding of abilities just irritates me & I just am forced to use what’s only deemed neccesary. If anything I can’t stand having a variety of hot bars + on top of other utilities that overflows my playing screen which kills my immersion of the game.

Without attempting to add salt into injury this is why I credit ESO due to its simplicity & ability modification talent & everything else is just immersion.

PS: I am also a controller user on Ps4

I don't mind it either. Kaiten barely counts as a button or a mechanic / skill

1.you never don't have kenki for it because it's the primary spend with Shinten being 100% filler to stop overcap so there's no management of resources
2. you always use it on every iaijutsu so there's no management of its' application besides not being a freestyle samurai (e.g. trying to play stupid on purpose or being BRAND new to the job)
if you removed it, added 50% potency to Higan, Tenka, and Midare, and made any iai cost 25 kenki to use, there would be literally no difference besides your oGCD slot before an iai being freed up

Worst of all it is not even in the Stormblood trailer as people keep saying. Sorry for those who don't like the change.

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Originally Posted by localareanetwork

I don't mind it either. Kaiten barely counts as a button or a mechanic / skill

1.you never don't have kenki for it because it's the primary spend with Shinten being 100% filler to stop overcap so there's no management of resources
2. you always use it on every iaijutsu so there's no management of its' application besides not being a freestyle samurai (e.g. trying to play stupid on purpose or being BRAND new to the job)
if you removed it, added 50% potency to Higan, Tenka, and Midare, and made any iai cost 25 kenki to use, there would be literally no difference besides your oGCD slot before an iai being freed up

Worst of all it is not even in the Stormblood trailer as people keep saying. Sorry for those who don't like the change.

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Why tf would Iai cost kenki on top of Sen?

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

Please understand that it's not even just about Kaiten's removal at this point, it's just the latest. If there is something that even has the hint of a failure state, it is being slowly removed from the game. The developers very rarely add things that make jobs more engaging or more fun for it's core audience, compared to destroying elements of jobs entirely, and would rather remove to improve.

Some of the things being removed are things that people liked a lot, and there is zero faith any of those things we liked about the game are ever going to return. What SAM players are dealing with right now are what Tanks and Healers have been having to put up with for years, as the entire combat loop stagnates. I don't feel like any job has been "improved". Just which job has had the least ripped out of it overtime.

Doesn't help that rather than people empathize that there are certain sides of the game that have been around since before the population explosions have started to feel alienated, instead we get screamed at to unsubscribe and how whatever we're saying has no merit. There's a lot of anger right now, a lot of strawmanning.

This gutting happens again, and again, and more of us actually will leave and then you won't see topics like this anymore, since we will all have given up on the game, like how SE has given up on having engaging and sensible job design.

There's nothing wrong with that, of course. Game will still work for most, which is most important. It's just sad for people who liked how things were and where things could have gone. I'm just tired of having fun things being taken away from me.

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Hit the nail on the head my friend. I actually started (yes, started) playing world of Warcraft to get my healer fix. Disc priest feels a lot like pre 5.0 healers and it’s refreshing.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

PS: I don't believe you are not trolling or stirring up flame, I think you are another one of the toxic positive casual fan boys that believes your spokes person Yoshi P can do no wrong. Which that is all he is I wouldn't even call him a director anymore at this point.

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I'd look in the mirror here if you want to see toxic. OP has different feelings than those opposed and is giving their reasons. They're not saying anyone else is wrong and are asking what the arguments against it are.

Fun fact, if you took Kaiten off your bar entirely and just spammed Shinten with the Kenki, you'd only lose about 2.2% dps on average. You actually never had to press it.

The ability only really matters for high end optimization and week 1 Savage prog, but players who probably barely dabble in EX are happy it's being ripped away when its existence doesn't even matter to them in the first place.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Why tf would Iai cost kenki on top of Sen?

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Where did I say Sen would cost kenki

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Originally Posted by localareanetwork

Where did I say Sen would cost kenki

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Here.

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Originally Posted by localareanetwork

if you removed it, added 50% potency to Higan, Tenka, and Midare, and made any iai cost 25 kenki to use, there would be literally no difference besides your oGCD slot before an iai being freed up

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That would mean that Iai would cost 25 kenki on top of what ever sen to execute that Iai. Not sure if you aren't understanding what you typed or what SeverianLyonesse typed.

It's not 25 kenki per sen it's 25 kenki + the sen gauge to make that more clear as to what both of you are stating.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Here.



That would mean that Iai would cost 25 kenki on top of what ever sen to execute that Iai. Not sure if you aren't understanding what you typed or what SeverianLyonesse typed.

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Thank you for making my point for me. You are a Summoner and a Gentleman.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Fun fact, if you took Kaiten off your bar entirely and just spammed Shinten with the Kenki, you'd only lose about 2.2% dps on average. You actually never had to press it.

The ability only really matters for high end optimization and week 1 Savage prog, but players who probably barely dabble in EX are happy it's being ripped away when its existence doesn't even matter to them in the first place.

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I remember this being brought up before. Something along the lines of it being better to not use Kaiten at all, than to misuse it on the wrong skill. That was well before EW though. The thing is, the change will prevent Kenki from being used on the wrong skill from a misused Kaiten. Had the devs come out with something like that, instead of saying they want to reduce button bloat; the change would be have been received MUCH differently. The problem with that though is you can't say that without mentioning that "players can't be confided in to use Kaiten correctly, so we're removing it." You have to attach a euphemism or flat out lie for the sake of offending someone.

I know we want to believe that devs are out of touch and make questionable decisions. Granted, they do. I am not saying they are infallible; but more often than not that is not so. In this case, I feel that "button bloat" is just the fall guy.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I remember this being brought up before. Something along the lines of it being better to not use Kaiten at all, than to misuse it on the wrong skill. That was well before EW though. The thing is, the change will prevent Kenki from being used on the wrong skill from a misused Kaiten. Had the devs come out with something like that, instead of saying they want to reduce button bloat; the change would be have been received MUCH differently. The problem with that though is you can't say that without mentioning that "players can't be confided in to use Kaiten correctly, so we're removing it." You have to attach a euphemism or flat out lie for the sake of offending someone.

I know we want to believe that devs are out of touch and make questionable decisions. Granted, they do. I am not saying they are infallible; but more often than not that is not so. In this case, I feel that "button bloat" is just the fall guy.

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You can use the excuse that players can't use x skill correctly for almost every skill and every job in the game. So many players can't play BLM correctly by misuse of flare, swiftcast, triple cast, thunder, ley lines, manafont, manaward, between the lines, aetherial manipulation, sharp cast. And that is just one job but are they removing any of these skills because players do not use them correctly?

You have created an excuse for the devs which so many other players do as well. Unless they come out and give a different reason, I will take the reason they have given us.

Edit: Also if players can't take time to learn how to play there class that is not my problem or the devs problem IMO. If you want to play a class and do end game content, learn to play it.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I know we want to believe that devs are out of touch and make questionable decisions. Granted, they do. I am not saying they are infallible; but more often than not that is not so. In this case, I feel that "button bloat" is just the fall guy.

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That’s a fair take. That said, I still hate the dev’s trend of dumbing the combat down so the skill gap is smaller. IMO the solution should be add hall of the intermediate that teaches markers, ABC, don’t let dots fall off etc. rather than removing any optimization for endgame players.

Yes. It has to be done, in order to make the inexperienced player feels more valued. Vet players be damned for creating that wide skill gap!

/s

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Yes. It has to be done, in order to make the inexperienced player feels more valued. Vet players be damned for creating that wide skill gap!

/s

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That'd imply that only veteran players are annoyed with the dev's constant attempts at making both the content and the gameplay increasingly more shallow.

Maybe we'll eventually get one of those mobile game auto-battle functions so I can play something that doesn't make me fall asleep while the game does dungeons for me.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

People act like this is new.

They completely changed warrior within a patch or 2 of the game launching because "people didn't understand how to play it"

What did they do? Made it more like PLD.

People act like things getting nerfed is new. Coil was nerfed every new tier.


This isn't new. This has been the games design the entire time.

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https://imgs.search.brave.com/ye3Ghx...dubG9h/ZC5wbmc

Who the fack did not understand how to play Warrior!? Pardon my language, but you gotta be dam near brain dead to think Warrior's a difficult job class to understand! Jesus christ, lol!

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Originally Posted by Soge01

https://imgs.search.brave.com/ye3Ghx...dubG9h/ZC5wbmc

Who the fack did not understand how to play Warrior!? Pardon my language, but you gotta be dam near brain dead to think Warrior's a difficult job class to understand! Jesus christ, lol!

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Warrior in 4.0 was by far the most difficult tank to understand and play effectively. But they went from "actually difficult" to "pants on head" within 2 patches and doubled down on it with every expansion.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

People act like this is new.

They completely changed warrior within a patch or 2 of the game launching because "people didn't understand how to play it"

What did they do? Made it more like PLD.

People act like things getting nerfed is new. Coil was nerfed every new tier.


This isn't new. This has been the games design the entire time.

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Hyperbole and utter nonsense when it comes to Warrior 'being more like Paladin', or even why it was done.

We learned everything we could about Warrior at the time and mathematically it was better to play MARAUDER as a DPS than Warrior tank itself because the damage loss was that awful when it came to the 2.0 job, and the class frankly sucked. Their aggro was nonexistent when it came to aoe, their TP cost was extremely high for no reason, Vengeance had NO damage mitigation so they were actively playing with a cooldown that didn't work half the time (Remember when their 20% only affected Physical damage? You sure didn't). Threat Generation from Defiance was not as good as Shield Oath, to the point they had to actively break combo to keep aggro. Healing was more of a burden on Warrior due to their hp being higher and needing more mp to spend on them at a time where both MP and TP were more critical to spend. They literally face tanked things with higher base defense and hoped it worked out in 2.0. L2P was the meme answer when it was clear the developers had no idea what the actual state of Warrior was at the time. They didn't "Make it more like PLD", they made the class not terrible to play, aka not actively trolling your raid by picking it when Paladin was doing both more damage and could mitigate, well, anything in Coil.

But go on, please continue talking like you know what you're talking about when you clearly have no clue on any job you don't actively play when five minutes of google would have made you not post something so ridiculously false.

As for OP, the short answer is that Kaiten is a good animation and goes into the fantasy of Samurai that has been ingrained since its release, with the class feel growing better for both expansions. It is the second least busy melee dps job, and Reaper is frankly a terrifying class because it shows how future job changes will be. I have never played a slower class in XIV and I personally want no job to even come close to Reaper and it's low management. There are other skills to remove that would be more effective than randomly warping how a class plays for the sake of simplicity.

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Originally Posted by Enjuden

snip

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I assume they meant the changes to warrior from 4.0 to 4.2...or atleast I would hope so.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I assume they meant the changes to warrior from 4.0 to 4.2...or atleast I would hope so.

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I assumed that too, until "They completely changed warrior within a patch or 2 of the game launching" was made in the post.

I don't post like that unless I am absolutely sure the context is relevant.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

You can use the excuse that players can't use x skill correctly for almost every skill and every job in the game. So many players can't play BLM correctly by misuse of flare, swiftcast, triple cast, thunder, ley lines, manafont, manaward, between the lines, aetherial manipulation, sharp cast. And that is just one job but are they removing any of these skills because players do not use them correctly?

You have created an excuse for the devs which so many other players do as well. Unless they come out and give a different reason, I will take the reason they have given us.

Edit: Also if players can't take time to learn how to play there class that is not my problem or the devs problem IMO. If you want to play a class and do end game content, learn to play it.

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Understandable that you feel this way, but it's been happening for years now. The homogenization of jobs, and streamlining their rotations. Just because a job like BLM hasn't been subjected to it in the same manner doesn't make this less true, nor does it make the job exempt from similar treatment in the future.

The thing about button bloat being the reason isn't a lie. But it isn't the entire truth. Fact of the matter is that Kaiten being removed is going to impact how SAM feels because it is a change that directly affects their APM. Consolidating skills like Shoha I/II and/or Guren/Senei does not do this. The higher a job's APM, the more difficult it becomes to play, and play consistently. If you don't want to look at it that way, another way is it becomes much easier to screw up.

With SAM, the addition of a Meikyo charge, Tsubame charge, and cap skills increased SAMs APM from the previous expansion. I haven't taken my SAM into anything significant this expansion, but from my understanding a chief issue was their damage has not been up to par, and if their APM has increased then this makes absolutely no sense. Sure, adding guaranteed crits onto their skills is one way to circumvent the issue, but it doesn't address the higher APM. And as was pointed out before, if no Kaiten is better than a misused Kaiten, then it becomes pretty clear [from a dev's perspective] that the removal of the skill should improve SAM gameplay over all in terms of the numbers.

The dev team could come out with such an elaborate explanation, but you know as well as I that it will get boiled down to: lowest common denominator. Saying "button bloat" focuses the inevitable vitriol on them instead of the playerbase.

Of course, this is just my perspective on the matter and I am not stating these things as facts.

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Originally Posted by Soge01

https://imgs.search.brave.com/ye3Ghx...dubG9h/ZC5wbmc

Who the fack did not understand how to play Warrior!? Pardon my language, but you gotta be dam near brain dead to think Warrior's a difficult job class to understand! Jesus christ, lol!

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I mean, you probably weren't here in 2.0 then.


And it is relavent. People keep acting like this is new. It's not. They've simplified and made changes to every job ever since the game came out.


Remember when gierskogul took 10 seconds off blood of the dragon? Man that was fun and engaging...

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I mean, you probably weren't here in 2.0 then.


And it is relavent. People keep acting like this is new. It's not. They've simplified and made changes to every job ever since the game came out.


Remember when gierskogul took 10 seconds off blood of the dragon? Man that was fun and engaging...

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So, I wasn't here in 2.0. But that patch notes are still there. And yeah I did not see anything that you were talking about.

I do remember when gierskogul took 10 seconds off blood of the dragon and it was actually engaging. See at that time the point of blood of the dragon was not to maintain it but to keep it up until blood of the dragon cd reset. The game eventually turned to maintaining blood of the dragon much like enochian.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

With SAM, the addition of a Meikyo charge, Tsubame charge, and cap skills increased SAMs APM from the previous expansion. I haven't taken my SAM into anything significant this expansion, but from my understanding a chief issue was their damage has not been up to par, and if their APM has increased then this makes absolutely no sense. Sure, adding guaranteed crits onto their skills is one way to circumvent the issue, but it doesn't address the higher APM. And as was pointed out before, if no Kaiten is better than a misused Kaiten, then it becomes pretty clear [from a dev's perspective] that the removal of the skill should improve SAM gameplay over all in terms of the numbers.

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Samurai's damage was only low at low. The subsequent buffs in 6.08 brought it back to being the strongest Melee and highest ranked speed kill job once again. It's single-handedly brought Dancer back into the meta. In other words, the job was perfectly fine. I suspect the only reason we're losing Kaiten is due to baby players not pressing it, thus their damage falls behind. Which is rather laughable when you consider inexperienced or outright bad players aren't going to be pressing their buttons properly anyway. At this point, it always seems like the change is an excuse for guaranteed crits to be a thing because "OMG BIG NUMBERS!!!!!"

It's a lazy, poorly thought change meant to simplify for no real benefit.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Remember when gierskogul took 10 seconds off blood of the dragon? Man that was fun and engaging...

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Personally? I always thought it was. You actually had to think about your Geirskogul uses instead of mindlessly pressing them. With the improvements in future expansions, that system would have been fine. Alas, it demanded a far higher skill ceiling because executing Geirskogul willy nilly meant a massive damage loss. So... into the trash bin it went.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Understandable that you feel this way, but it's been happening for years now. The homogenization of jobs, and streamlining their rotations. Just because a job like BLM hasn't been subjected to it in the same manner doesn't make this less true, nor does it make the job exempt from similar treatment in the future.

The thing about button bloat being the reason isn't a lie. But it isn't the entire truth. Fact of the matter is that Kaiten being removed is going to impact how SAM feels because it is a change that directly affects their APM. Consolidating skills like Shoha I/II and/or Guren/Senei does not do this. The higher a job's APM, the more difficult it becomes to play, and play consistently. If you don't want to look at it that way, another way is it becomes much easier to screw up.

With SAM, the addition of a Meikyo charge, Tsubame charge, and cap skills increased SAMs APM from the previous expansion. I haven't taken my SAM into anything significant this expansion, but from my understanding a chief issue was their damage has not been up to par, and if their APM has increased then this makes absolutely no sense. Sure, adding guaranteed crits onto their skills is one way to circumvent the issue, but it doesn't address the higher APM. And as was pointed out before, if no Kaiten is better than a misused Kaiten, then it becomes pretty clear [from a dev's perspective] that the removal of the skill should improve SAM gameplay over all in terms of the numbers.

The dev team could come out with such an elaborate explanation, but you know as well as I that it will get boiled down to: lowest common denominator. Saying "button bloat" focuses the inevitable vitriol on them instead of the playerbase.

Of course, this is just my perspective on the matter and I am not stating these things as facts.

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If it's APM I could imagine other classes being something to look at first.

Job / CPM / Min / Max

NIN / 45.6 / 44.4 / 46.4

MCH / 45.1 / 44.2 / 46.4

BRD / 42.5 / 42.1 / 43.3

SAM / 42.2 / 40.5 /43.2

GNB / 41.5 / 39.7 / 43.9

DRG / 40.9 / 40.3 / 41.8

MNK / 39.8 / 38.8 / 41.3

AST / 38.6 / 35.9 / 40.6

DNC / 38.4 / 36.5 / 40.6

DRK / 37.9 / 36.6 / 39.6

RDM / 36.5 / 35.9 / 37.1

RPR / 36.0 / 35.1 / 36.8

SMN / 35.7 / 33.9 / 37.4

SCH / 35.4 / 33.1 / 38.0

PLD / 34.6 / 33.1 / 36.4

WAR / 34.1 / 32.4 / 35.1

SGE / 33.1 / 31.1 / 35.0

BLM / 32.8 / 32.2 / 34.8

WHM / 31.7 / 30.2 / 34.1

Samurai is almost tied for third.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

If it's APM I could imagine other classes being something to look at first.

Job / CPM / Min / Max

NIN / 45.6 / 44.4 / 46.4

MCH / 45.1 / 44.2 / 46.4

BRD / 42.5 / 42.1 / 43.3

SAM / 42.2 / 40.5 /43.2

GNB / 41.5 / 39.7 / 43.9

DRG / 40.9 / 40.3 / 41.8

MNK / 39.8 / 38.8 / 41.3

AST / 38.6 / 35.9 / 40.6

DNC / 38.4 / 36.5 / 40.6

DRK / 37.9 / 36.6 / 39.6

RDM / 36.5 / 35.9 / 37.1

RPR / 36.0 / 35.1 / 36.8

SMN / 35.7 / 33.9 / 37.4

SCH / 35.4 / 33.1 / 38.0

PLD / 34.6 / 33.1 / 36.4

WAR / 34.1 / 32.4 / 35.1

SGE / 33.1 / 31.1 / 35.0

BLM / 32.8 / 32.2 / 34.8

WHM / 31.7 / 30.2 / 34.1

Samurai is almost tied for third.

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Amusing how one of the most engaging jobs with one of the highest skill ceilings (BLM) has one of the lowest actions per minute.. more buttons does not mean more engaging..