gimme dots

I'm having a withdrawl, dot haters, please stop thinking about yourselves. I just want one class with at least 2 dots and at least one ability that interacts with them (e.g. fester, sidewinder). I don't mind which class it is, I just need dots

I sometimes think back to when SMN/SCH had like 5-6 DoTs to manage and I loved it, I find DoT upkeep to be really engaging. It's a shame they are eager to kill off as many as possible, the most any one job has now is a grand total of two and the "management" is a single button, hell we don't even have a skill like Bane that spreads them anymore, which feels...wrong.

I’m hoping for a job that utilizes dots now since they were taken away from most jobs that use them. I want a job that dots are the base and need to be interacted with. Don’t think we’ll get it but I can still want it. I very much like DoT jobs.

IIRC the reason they started moving away from DoTs and other effects for gameplay is because 1.0 spaghetti code makes it incredibly easy for those jobs to be broken in 24-mans, world bosses, and especially in Eureka/Bozja like content. Enemies can only have a certain number of debuffs inflicted on them and anything over that number simply fails to apply. It really hamstrung jobs that use DoTs and weakened any skills they used that required both dots being on a target to work.

PLD gets three DoTs!

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Originally Posted by Bacon4Makin

gimme dots

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I came in thinking that we were talking about Dippin' Dots.

Thread did not deliver.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

IIRC the reason they started moving away from DoTs and other effects for gameplay is because 1.0 spaghetti code makes it incredibly easy for those jobs to be broken in 24-mans, world bosses, and especially in Eureka/Bozja like content. Enemies can only have a certain number of debuffs inflicted on them and anything over that number simply fails to apply. It really hamstrung jobs that use DoTs and weakened any skills they used that required both dots being on a target to work.

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There are ways for there to be DoT attacks without counting as a debuff, such as passive effects/entities like turrets/Esteem or ground based AoEs. I'm positive there are other methods I have not thought of either that plays around with the limitations of the engine as well. I think the bigger problem about a potential DoT job may be a bit more disappointing though, something as simple as SE not wanting to make a job that has people thinking "I can't see my numbers so I don't know if I'm doing well" perhaps.

I do miss early 2.0 dots on SCH

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

IIRC the reason they started moving away from DoTs and other effects for gameplay is because 1.0 spaghetti code makes it incredibly easy for those jobs to be broken in 24-mans, world bosses, and especially in Eureka/Bozja like content. Enemies can only have a certain number of debuffs inflicted on them and anything over that number simply fails to apply. It really hamstrung jobs that use DoTs and weakened any skills they used that required both dots being on a target to work.

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I had this exact problem in Eureka. Too many debuffs on the NM so my DoTs wouldn't land.

Imo the way to solve the 'Debuffs take up too much space' problem with DoTs is to make one that's self-stackable. X Potency per Y stack every tick over Z seconds. You can have the cheater instant-stack cooldown on a super short duration to emulate Tri-Disaster and even build in the Iron Jaws refresh and Huton extension mechanics automatically into the base spell. And not only does it open up manipulating the stacks AND the duration you have for burst, you're actively encouraged to do so in SE's case, because the potency it gets and number of times it stacks is going to be something people want you to increase as you upgrade the skill but snapshotting is something they're not gonna fix. Since it'll do a significant portion of filler damage and XIV's engine holds all your raid buffs together, you'll want to make a burst phase that lasts around 25s that forces you to spend and reapply those stacks repeatedly to ensure it doesn't get full uptime with certain bonuses. Not that that's a bad thing, but it's something SE would do if they're going to do something like this to a meaningful degree.

The only downside, and it is a downside, is you don't get to see a flurry of debuffs on one enemy. But that's the thing XIV's trying to stop to begin with, so I think we can let that one slide if they did something else interesting with it.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

PLD gets three DoTs!

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Yeah, but our Goring Blade and Blade of Valor (I think it's that one) can't coexist. They overwrite one another. Only Circle of Scorn can stack with either of them.

they will build some sort mage dot class im sure it be next mage.

Psssst.....

Try BLU. >_>

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Originally Posted by Zarkovitch

they will build some sort mage dot class im sure it be next mage.

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Probably not. We had DoT classes before and they got removed because lmao idk.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Psssst.....

Try BLU. >_>

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Try BLU if you're okay with losing out on over half the content, including reduced level cap and being discriminated by the system in DF and by other players in PF.

Sorry, OP. Yoshi hates DoT's, so we don't get to have many of them.

What about bard?

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Originally Posted by AmpelioB

What about bard?

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What about it? Completely non-interactable DoTs that just deal damage. They might as well be replaced with a 45 second CD that just deals full potency at once. Actually, that's probably what is happening in 7.0.

I used to like bard but they took away like 70% of it's dotty-ness

Hopefully the next caster will be a dot mage. My head cannon is Geomancer will be like a baby between 3.X scholar/summoner and shaman from WoW with placeable totems that buff or debuff.

The devs hate DoTs more than they hate positionals, unfortunately.

While most jobs are better off without them (namely DRK and WAR lol), I don't think abandoning them altogether will be a net positive. But it's just the direction the game seems to be going.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

The devs hate DoTs more than they hate positionals, unfortunately.

While most jobs are better off without them (namely DRK and WAR lol), I don't think abandoning them altogether will be a net positive. But it's just the direction the game seems to be going.

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Living Shadow is essential a dot so DRK still has one

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Originally Posted by Azuri

What about it? Completely non-interactable DoTs that just deal damage. They might as well be replaced with a 45 second CD that just deals full potency at once. Actually, that's probably what is happening in 7.0.

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I’m scared to death they’ll remove the DoTs outright from BRD going into 7.0. As it stands, the job is a far cry from the versions I loved in the past (former bowmage and SB BRD main, here); and the removal of the interactivity the DoTs had with the job’s core mechanic and procs is one thing that still turns me off. Iron Jaws also just feels underwhelming now, though some of the loss of usage there was caused by the potency of Burst Shot versus Heavy Shot. But still.

I’ll always be salty about what happened to my old favorite job. :(

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’m scared to death they’ll remove the DoTs outright from BRD going into 7.0. As it stands, the job is a far cry from the versions I loved in the past (former bowmage and SB BRD main, here); and the removal of the interactivity the DoTs had with the job’s core mechanic and procs is one thing that still turns me off.

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. WAIT THEY TOOK THAT OFF?

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Originally Posted by AmpelioB

. WAIT THEY TOOK THAT OFF?

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Yeah, some time between the Media Tour and Endwalker release they removed it and gave each song a flat 80% to proc. Wish I knew why other than them currently having a crusade against DoTs in general.

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Originally Posted by baklava151

Yeah, some time between the Media Tour and Endwalker release they removed it and gave each song a flat 80% to proc. Wish I knew why other than them currently having a crusade against DoTs in general.

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From my experience levelling Bard in previous expansions it felt like my songs were providing no actual fun especially at lower levels due to lack of Mage and Wanderer procs. I could go whole alliance raids and have Mage proc maybe only once per song and always frustratingly never managed to get to 3 on Wanderer's until possibly the last second.

At higher levels this was not so bad, but it could still happen occasionally. I imagine someone on the dev team played Bard, realized this was a major problem, and promptly adjusted the procs to no longer be tied to dots-which were also especially impractical to apply on multiple enemies to Bard never receiving a "Bane" equivalent.

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Originally Posted by baklava151

Yeah, some time between the Media Tour and Endwalker release they removed it and gave each song a flat 80% to proc. Wish I knew why other than them currently having a crusade against DoTs in general.

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Maybe one of them hated Ballad. Cause you have to use less of it now because the last 15 seconds of it can’t beat the last 15 seconds of Paeon.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

From my experience levelling Bard in previous expansions it felt like my songs were providing no actual fun especially at lower levels due to lack of Mage and Wanderer procs. I could go whole alliance raids and have Mage proc maybe only once per song and always frustratingly never managed to get to 3 on Wanderer's until possibly the last second.

At higher levels this was not so bad, but it could still happen occasionally. I imagine someone on the dev team played Bard, realized this was a major problem, and promptly adjusted the procs to no longer be tied to dots-which were also especially impractical to apply on multiple enemies to Bard never receiving a "Bane" equivalent.

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Well, it was a major problem caused by themselves. They were the ones who limited the Repertoire proc rate to 20% if you were level 60 or below… They could have just as easily removed the asinine restriction instead of DoT interactivity.

Multi-DoTing wasn’t really impractical. In dungeons, pulls ideally shouldn’t have lived beyond thirty seconds anyways. If anything, I find the removal of having to multi-DoT to get procs has made playing the job in dungeons even more boring. There’s just too many layers of interactivity that the developers removed in an effort to “make things easier” for the lowest common denominator. The way they simplify and streamline jobs in this game has led to many of them being snoozefests.

I suspect that they removed dots in part due to issues with max number being hit. Since ARR i frequently found when i played SMN that my dots wouldnt go onto targets in Alliance raids or the big fates simply because they had met a max counter. This seems to have lessened in SB when they started ditching dots. But i assume there isnt a work around so they decided to strip dots from classes. That said, I do think a true dot based class would be really good. Summoner never really worked as one because it was constantly torn between those who wanted a dot focus and those who wanted a summon focus. Given SMN a Summon focus and then creating a class that is dot focused is the right apprech IMO.

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

I suspect that they removed dots in part due to issues with max number being hit. Since ARR i frequently found when i played SMN that my dots wouldnt go onto targets in Alliance raids or the big fates simply because they had met a max counter. This seems to have lessened in SB when they started ditching dots. But i assume there isnt a work around so they decided to strip dots from classes. That said, I do think a true dot based class would be really good. Summoner never really worked as one because it was constantly torn between those who wanted a dot focus and those who wanted a summon focus. Given SMN a Summon focus and then creating a class that is dot focused is the right apprech IMO.

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This was the exact reason they removed them. SMN's main damage (fester) was tied to their dots on target, Bard as well IIRC (Sidewinder).

In a 24 person raid? You hit the debuff / dot cap on every single boss (64). There was no priority. So summoners frequently lost damage because they couldn't get dots on target.

I think it was Stormblood where the vast majority of DoTs were removed from pretty much everyone.

I'd also really love a DOT class. BRD was my favourite DPS but it does feel kinda meh now that none of it's kit relies on the DOTs anymore. It used to feel like a very complete job because everything relied on your DOTs and songs and there were interactions there.
I don't really understand people who say, 'X skill might as well be a normal ability' because those sorts of abilities just seem less interesting whereas with DOTs there's more (even if not loads admittedly) nuance with when you should/shouldn't reapply them. Normal 'Does X damage' skills with longer cooldowns are usually just hit on cooldown regardless of the situation. I've found that I quite like 'upkeep' classes like having continual buffs/dots (especially bard in 4.x). Having said that, I know that the game isn't the best with dots and debuffs so not every job even needs a DOT. But again having 1 or 2 DOT/buff upkeep based jobs is kinda needed because that playstyle's all but died out in FFXIV.
I know it's unlikely to happen, but hopefully they'll undo those DOT related changes to BRD but if not I have thought that Green Mage (from FF Tactics A2) would be a good candidate for a DOT based caster seeing as it's a very debuff oriented class.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

This was the exact reason they removed them. SMN's main damage (fester) was tied to their dots on target, Bard as well IIRC (Sidewinder).

In a 24 person raid? You hit the debuff / dot cap on every single boss (64). There was no priority. So summoners frequently lost damage because they couldn't get dots on target.

I think it was Stormblood where the vast majority of DoTs were removed from pretty much everyone.

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The irony of SMN being the reason they were vastly removed is in the fact that now it has zero DoTs and is basically a completely different job.

Sidewinder they changed this expansion to no longer rely on having both DoTs applied for potency (Shadowbite as well). To be honest, I’d rather more interactivity with the DoTs be added back to BRD. The fact that they’re removing all of the skills that were reliant on them makes me worry they’ll just remove them in 7.0. And then BRD will be even more braindead to play (like it isn’t enough already…).

I think the developers could definitely re-add a couple DoTs back into the game at this point. Giving the healers a second one to manage would at least give us another button to press to break up our Glare/Malefic/Broil/Dosis monotony.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The irony of SMN being the reason they were vastly removed is in the fact that now it has zero DoTs and is basically a completely different job.

I think the developers could definitely re-add a couple DoTs back into the game at this point. Giving the healers a second one to manage would at least give us another button to press to break up our Glare/Malefic/Broil/Dosis monotony.

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I'd rather have an attack to build up to or a combo instead of more dots to manage. One is ok, but more than that is just busywork. People don't choose to play as healers so they can be reskinned poison mages, and since there isn't that much to heal, some of the main ways of dealing damage that people enjoy seems like a better option. Bonus points if the combos actually are interrupted by casted heals so newer players learn to prioritize their cooldowns instead of Cure spam.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I'd rather have an attack to build up to or a combo instead of more dots to manage. One is ok, but more than that is just busywork. People don't choose to play as healers so they can be reskinned poison mages, and since there isn't that much to heal, some of the main ways of dealing damage that people enjoy seems like a better option. Bonus points if the combos actually are interrupted by casted heals so newer players learn to prioritize their cooldowns instead of Cure spam.

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Respectfully, I would prefer DoTs to manage, and there have been others who have expressed similar sentiments. Since we are discussing “main ways of dealing damage that people enjoy”.

The developers would be far more likely to add a second DoT back (maybe one that can be used in single-target and AOE like Aero III) versus a full-blown combo. That would “be too hard for the baby healers”. Forced combo breaking with casted heals isn’t going to teach anyone anything. People break combos all the time on DPS jobs with them—I doubt it would actually teach healers to prioritize oGCDs over GCD heals.

Build-up attacks technically already exist in the form of Misery—and it’s technically a DPS loss to even do unless there is downtime. Since they have given zero indication they plan to address this, I’d prefer to not have this kind of mechanic added to the other three.

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People don't choose to play as healers so they can be reskinned poison mages

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I fail to see how adding something as simple as Aero III to all healers suddenly makes them a discount poison mage.

I would not support the re-addition of an Aero III equivalent in the form of a separate dot to manage.

I would however support an Aero III that applies my dot to all enemies for mass pulls.

Too many dots -> most of my damage coming from dots -> I consider it a dot class, not interested, especially when the job is allegedly supposed to be a healer.

I do not consider Afflatus Misery to be a "buildup" attack, and I agree that it should be fixed the sooner the better. I mean, do X combo X times, get to use X finisher after building up to it. Restart. To me that is more fun than managing dots, and is gameplay I would tolerate on a "healer" which SE refuses to give anything to heal. Dot gameplay leans on passive, I lean more towards active.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I would not support the re-addition of an Aero III equivalent in the form of a separate dot to manage.

I would however support an Aero III that applies my dot to all enemies for mass pulls.

Too many dots -> most of my damage coming from dots -> I consider it a dot class, not interested, especially when the job is allegedly supposed to be a healer.

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Even when WHM had 2 DoTs and 1 nuke, Stone IV was still the majority of your damage. DoTs didn’t make up more than 50% of your average DPS unless you just straight up ignored your nuke for very extended periods of time. They weren’t negligible, but you’re implying they were worth more than they actually were.

As for the last remark here, basically just accept we are a healer in name only. At this point, the role itself has been relegated to “gimped damage dealer”.

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I do not consider Afflatus Misery to be a "buildup" attack, and I agree that it should be fixed the sooner the better. I mean, do X combo X times, get to use X finisher after building up to it. Restart. To me that is more fun than managing dots, and is gameplay I would tolerate on a "healer" which SE refuses to give anything to heal. Dot gameplay leans on passive, I lean more towards active.

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Misery is a build up, though: you have to build up 3 blood lilies to actively use it. Just because it’s not a combo finisher doesn’t mean it doesn’t require a similar type of preparation.

DoT gameplay isn’t passive when you have to actively watch them and reapply them, but this is my opinion. I’m not under any illusion the developer would ever give healers a full-blown combo, so I’ll stick to requests that seem far more likely to be added to the jobs. Even if it’s more likely they’ll just remove the one DoT we have “to make things less stressful on baby healers”.

Every sch main I have talked to would love to have miasma, miasma2, shadowflare and/or bane back. I personally found healers across the board more interesting and enjoyable to play in previous expacs in Heavensward and Stormblood with more dots compared to Shb and EW

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I would not support the re-addition of an Aero III equivalent in the form of a separate dot to manage.

I would however support an Aero III that applies my dot to all enemies for mass pulls.

Too many dots -> most of my damage coming from dots -> I consider it a dot class, not interested, especially when the job is allegedly supposed to be a healer.

I do not consider Afflatus Misery to be a "buildup" attack, and I agree that it should be fixed the sooner the better. I mean, do X combo X times, get to use X finisher after building up to it. Restart. To me that is more fun than managing dots, and is gameplay I would tolerate on a "healer" which SE refuses to give anything to heal. Dot gameplay leans on passive, I lean more towards active.

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You know... you dont have to enjoy every class in the game? Honestly i think divergence of playstyle is a good thing and a dot class would be a divergent class that feels completely different from anything else.

I also dont think adding an extra dot to whm would actually do any harm or make it a discount dot mage. It would however give another thing for healers to manage dps wise and lets face it, that is something all healers sorely need.

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

You know... you dont have to enjoy every class in the game? Honestly i think divergence of playstyle is a good thing and a dot class would be a divergent class that feels completely different from anything else.

I also dont think adding an extra dot to whm would actually do any harm or make it a discount dot mage. It would however give another thing for healers to manage dps wise and lets face it, that is something all healers sorely need.

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You are correct in that I do not have to enjoy every class in the game. However I do not believe this mechanic should usurp the core fundamental class fantasy of something like a healer, which are too boring to play nowadays.

Managing multiple dots yet having only one real casted damage spell is not gameplay that I would be willing to accept on White Mage, or any healer that is not Scholar-which should absolutely receive its spells back. At present I have no reason to play White Mage, adding another dot would do nothing to pull me away from Astrologian or Sage, which are the only healers I play these days.

If you are going to add abilities, add something active and that doesn't lean towards busywork. You will never be able to convince me that watching a timer for 30 seconds is active. I like *doing* not *watching.* Adding dots for the sake of adding something will not fix the core issues with healers at the moment. The ideal solution is and always will be to give something to actually heal, but failing that I don't think watching dot timers is anymore fun than waiting for the predictable raid-wide to occur, rinse and repeat.

Adding DoTs wouldn’t disrupt any core fantasy. If anything, it would restore it. Since the healers in this game began with more than just a single DoT and a single nuke. WHM started with 2 DoTs in ARR (upgraded to 3 in HW), and SCH had 5 innate ones; not even counting that they could cross-class Aero back in the day. AST began with 2 as well. As it stands, the healers have no core class fantasy anymore (outside of maybe WHM in that the devs force it into being the GCD “burst” healer compared to the other 3 primarily using oGCDs).

The developers have made it abundantly clear that the only additional healing they will ever provide healers in this game is more button bloat in healing abilities that we never have to press in most content. They have outright told healers that if they want to be more engaged, go do Ultimate (which doesn’t require even 50% healing uptime).

The idea of giving healers another DoT to manage would be to not have it also be 30 seconds so the “rotation” is DoT I > DoT II > nuke > repeat when it’s time to refresh. Ideally you would make the timers different so that active management is required. Aero III was 24 seconds to Aero II’s 18 seconds in SB. Watching timers would be more engaging than doing 1-2-3, which would requires less watching. Even if you added a build-up finisher, since those are signaled usually by a job gauge sound telling you they’re ready.

The only healer that can really get away with the 1 DoT 1 nuke design is AST. And that’s only because it has something else to manage. I was fine with this design in SB while WHM and SCH had multiple DoTs to upkeep.

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Adding dots for the sake of adding something will not fix the core issues with healers at the moment.

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It would make them less boring to play, and make them more active. It wouldn’t fix the lack of healing uptime, but neither would adding in a 1-2-3 + healer Midare build-up attack.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Adding DoTs wouldn’t disrupt any core fantasy. If anything, it would restore it. Since the healers in this game began with more than just a single DoT and a single nuke. WHM started with 2 DoTs in ARR (upgraded to 3 in HW), and SCH had 5 innate ones; not even counting that they could cross-class Aero back in the day. AST began with 2 as well. As it stands, the healers have no core class fantasy anymore (outside of maybe WHM in that the devs force it into being the GCD “burst” healer compared to the other 3 primarily using oGCDs).

The developers have made it abundantly clear that the only additional healing they will ever provide healers in this game is more button bloat in healing abilities that we never have to press in most content. They have outright told healers that if they want to be more engaged, go do Ultimate (which doesn’t require even 50% healing uptime).

The idea of giving healers another DoT to manage would be to not have it also be 30 seconds so the “rotation” is DoT I > DoT II > nuke > repeat when it’s time to refresh. Ideally you would make the timers different so that active management is required. Aero III was 24 seconds to Aero II’s 18 seconds in SB. Watching timers would be more engaging than doing 1-2-3, which would requires less watching. Even if you added a build-up finisher, since those are signaled usually by a job gauge sound telling you they’re ready.

The only healer that can really get away with the 1 DoT 1 nuke design is AST. And that’s only because it has something else to manage. I was fine with this design in SB while WHM and SCH had multiple DoTs to upkeep.



It would make them less boring to play, and make them more active. It wouldn’t fix the lack of healing uptime, but neither would adding in a 1-2-3 + healer Midare build-up attack.

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The biggets problem with healer is ultimately an unfixable role issue. Healing difficulty can only ever decrease week by week as players gain more gear and are able to mitigate to a greater degree. It makes sense to me why healing ceiling in terms of tools and kit has already been reached. The fundamental core of the issue is that the holy trinity of Tank, Healer and Dps will always result in the Healer getting the short end of the stick. Ultimately Pure healers need to be Heavy Support DPS with Healing to avoid it but designating them as such would make balancing DPS almost impossible.

I think Healers need to have a core and engaging DPS rotation that is supplemented by healing toolkit over a predemoninately healing toolkit with sprinkles of DPS abilities. But even if they added a more complex dps rotation i think healers will feel underwhelming, personally, because of the natural nerf to damage as gear and player skill improve.

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

The biggets problem with healer is ultimately an unfixable role issue. Healing difficulty can only ever decrease week by week as players gain more gear and are able to mitigate to a greater degree. It makes sense to me why healing ceiling in terms of tools and kit has already been reached. The fundamental core of the issue is that the holy trinity of Tank, Healer and Dps will always result in the Healer getting the short end of the stick. Ultimately Pure healers need to be Heavy Support DPS with Healing to avoid it but designating them as such would make balancing DPS almost impossible.

I think Healers need to have a core and engaging DPS rotation that is supplemented by healing toolkit over a predemoninately healing toolkit with sprinkles of DPS abilities. But even if they added a more complex dps rotation i think healers will feel underwhelming, personally, because of the natural nerf to damage as gear and player skill improve.

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It's only a problem because their dps toolkit is so extremely lackluster and to a lesser extent the oGCD healing options being bloated, and it certainly isn't 'unfixable'. Cleric stance (as clunky as it was) theoretically solved the macro of healing and mitigation optimization, and multiple DPS skills that weren't spammable (DoTs most serviceable) solved the moment to moment gameplay of healing optimization. Things like Phlegma are a very small step in the right direction, though has problems of its own related to being a CD stacking nuke. Just making healers the shitty DPS with bandaids to hand out is a stupid solution and unnecessarily undermines the player fantasy of picking a healer job.