Often people say that Dark Knight is in a bad spot, but what other Jobs...

-Would also be considered in a bad spot?

Like Dark Knight bad.

NIN is clunkier
SCH has gained nothing and fallen behind the other healers for it.
ASTs cards are terrible now (but it's saved by it's healing kit)

DRK is fine, functions just as well tanking as any other tank.

SCH still a god.

AST cards very good, dps love getting them and I love handing them out.

DRK is almost the same as Shadowbringers and that's part of the problem. It has hardly gained anything new and exciting. It could use some haste at least.

A lot of people were saying that scholar hasn't changed either, but in the raids I've been in scholar's speed buff has been a really big deal. I didn't think it would matter at first because we have sprint but it's like having sprint up more of the time for more mechanics and it's helped party finder to do mechanics successfully when they would have been too slow otherwise.

I don't like that AST's cards don't work toward divination, but they seem to work toward Astrodyne instead at least. It actually feels busier closer to how it was when Shadowbringers released and not in a good way because I'm struggling to remember that Divination and Minor Arcana exist now that they don't light up. It's not so bad, I still get to play cards and that's what keeps AST fun over the other healers that have nothing to do.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

DRK is fine, functions just as well tanking as any other tank.

SCH still a god.

AST cards very good, dps love getting them and I love handing them out.

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This, yeah. DRK's problem is that its kit feels kinda clunky and samey, not that it doesn't work.

Most healers in general. WHM is just straight up inferior at healing, SCH has the usual downsides that come from some of your oGCD's being tied to a separate AI that you snack on for 30 sec periods and AST is amazing at healing but riddled with useless button bloat. WHM remains popular simply because it's straightforward and more fun than AST or SCH's tedious features. Sage has flaws too, but it's in a great spot and clearly got all the attention.

NIN is the least popular dps by quite a lot. Monk is Monk.

DRK is actually quite strong on dps and its mitigation is "fine", it just has so many outdated, inferior or clunkier abilities and Living Dead is so rubbish that similar to AST, people don't even care if it's a meta class because it's not fun.

machinist
still has its design flaws and didn't gain too much

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Originally Posted by Floortank

DRK is fine, functions just as well tanking as any other tank.

SCH still a god.

AST cards very good, dps love getting them and I love handing them out.

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From my experiences runs always ran better under Warriors. Healing DArk Knights is kinda annoying too in Raids, Dungeons, and the such. I much prefer healing Warriors or Paladins.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

From my experiences runs always ran better under Warriors. Healing DArk Knights is kinda annoying too in Raids, Dungeons, and the such. I much prefer healing Warriors or Paladins.

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Your experience suggests confirmation bias.

If you wipe in a big pull with a DRK, and your only thought is "omg DRK bad", you're overlooking other potential causes.

1) DRK player isn't mitigating correctly.
2) Healer isn't healing correctly.
3) DPS aren't DPSing correctly.
4) Combinations of the above.

I've partied with two different DRKs from 80->90 in Endwalker so far, and neither one of them had a single problem doing wallpulls.

DRK doesn't even take damage because of TBN, unless they forgot to put it on their hotbar.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

DRK doesn't even take damage because of TBN, unless they forgot to put it on their hotbar.

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TBN is really overrated. its pretty bad when you compare it to Bloodwhetting, Holy Sheltron and Heart of Corundum.

Someone in this thread has made a good point though, wall to wall pulls on DRK are possible and can be done.
But if the DPS is low, the DRK will run out of resources. While I don't deny that it needs to be buffed/improved, I'm happy it's still "solid" (in terms of not getting something that completely throws things out of order.) and just needs a small look at the class to bring it up to par with the other tanks. And at least give Living dead a healing received increase buff, c'mon.

Now for my old main... I have little to no good words. Seven years down the drain for a job that doesn't even come close to fulfilling it's job-fantasy and has been turned into a rather generic mage. The bar has been set so low, that I now enjoy my former-two-most-hated jobs way more than what is my favourite Final Fantasy job in general, including the lore. The less I say the better, lest people come out of the woodworks defending and attacking me for not liking what is essentially a bare-boned class that has less gameplay than a White Mage. If healers have more buttons and better gameplay than a DPS, something went horribly wrong.

Machinist sucks right now, so do all of the healers once you get used to the kit, I hear dragoon isn't bad, just forgotten and kinda overshadowed

As always when it comes to these types of things, you'll have people going "what do you mean? [Job] is fine!"
Yes. DRK is fine.
It works. It does its abilities when you hit the buttons and you can clear dungeons, trials, raids, etc... on DRK.

In this instance, the perceived "bad spot" DRK is in comes from how it feels to play, specifically how bad it feels to play. This is, of course, highly subjective, but I'm not gonna sit here and act like I've not seen a good chunk of people, be it on this OF or in social media, complaining about how utterly insipid and bland the job feels in this expansion... And I have to say my own experience ain't all that different. I've been playing DRK since Heavensward and it feels like it's only been on a decline since then, its introductory expansion being the time I enjoyed it the most. Cut to Endwalker and we got... Salt and Darkness, Enhanced Unmend (snrk)... Dark Passenger, sorry, "Shadowbringer." Some people, somehow, managed to get hyped about a few traits and a half-second animation.

I find it rather funny cause I've a friend who started playing XIV in Shadowbringers, with DRK as his main job. When he saw what DRK got in Endwalker, he simply shrugged and said something to the effect of "that's alright. Job plays fine in Shadowbringers so it's whatever if they don't get anything crazy." He started to change his tune the more information we got and the closer we got to early access. Pretty sure he mains RPR now.

I feel fine tanking on DRK. And doing wall pulls, but it isn’t overly exciting this time around. Same situation on my SCH, I can do all the things on the job. It just doesn’t feel as fun to play for me.

DRK is great right now, don't listen to people who say otherwise. Or at least ask them to clarify.

Here's a few myths:

1. DRK does less damage - false, and if anything DRK is doing the most damage right now.

2. DRK doesn't have any self-healing - false, because DRK has healing built into their rotation, PLUS a massive shield every couple of seconds (which no other tank has).

3. DRK is not as cool as other tanks - false, they are the coolest tank with the coolest weapon. No this is not subjective.

4. DRK doesn't have Bloodwhetting - true, but the only people who should be crying about this are healers, not you.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

DRK is great right now, don't listen to people who say otherwise. Or at least ask them to clarify.

Here's a few myths:

1. DRK does less damage - false, and if anything DRK is doing the most damage right now.
2. DRK doesn't have any self-healing - false, because DRK has healing built into their rotation, PLUS a massive shield every couple of seconds (which no other tank has).

3. DRK is not as cool as other tanks - false, they are the coolest tank with the coolest weapon. No this is not subjective.

4. DRK doesn't have Bloodwhetting - true, but the only people who should be crying about this are healers, not you.

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If, by your logic, Dark Knight was perfectly fine, you wouldn’t see so many complaints about the job across so many different forms of media outside these forums. Much less the JP and other language playerbases, not to mention the huge amount of threads in the Tank Forums.

Yet, here we are.

Hahahaha imagine thinking TBN is even close to Holy Sheltron, bloodwhetting or Heart of Corundum...

or thinking that healing during GCD combos (Which exists on every single tank except for Paladin who still even gets it during Requiescat's rotation btw) is a big deal, oh boy DRK gets an extra 50 pot every 3 GCDs vs warrior at the cost of... checking notes... having absolutely 0 sustain tied to their Short form CD.

hmmm, i'd say that's a bad deal. doubly so when you consider those short form CDs are all usable during aoe and the DRK's healing is not.

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Originally Posted by Riusvell

Someone in this thread has made a good point though, wall to wall pulls on DRK are possible and can be done.
But if the DPS is low, the DRK will run out of resources. While I don't deny that it needs to be buffed/improved, I'm happy it's still "solid" (in terms of not getting something that completely throws things out of order.) and just needs a small look at the class to bring it up to par with the other tanks. And at least give Living dead a healing received increase buff, c'mon.

Now for my old main... I have little to no good words. Seven years down the drain for a job that doesn't even come close to fulfilling it's job-fantasy and has been turned into a rather generic mage. The bar has been set so low, that I now enjoy my former-two-most-hated jobs way more than what is my favourite Final Fantasy job in general, including the lore. The less I say the better, lest people come out of the woodworks defending and attacking me for not liking what is essentially a bare-boned class that has less gameplay than a White Mage. If healers have more buttons and better gameplay than a DPS, something went horribly wrong.

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You said it better than I could have.

I find that Dark Knight really depends on the group while Warrior/Paladin rely far less on the group to do very well.

To be fair the criticism I hear for DK is not that its bad its more like as one streamer put it. DK feels like an after thought in this expansion. Like it didn't really gain or lose anything. It just stagnated. Which isn't really good or bad. Just boring.

Reading some of these feedbacks about DRK makes me laugh a bit. CLEARLY they haven't read the tank side of the forums about DRK situation.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

DRK is great right now, don't listen to people who say otherwise. Or at least ask them to clarify.

Here's a few myths:

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No one said DRK isn't viable, has bad damage or bad aesthetic. You can't just make up a few myths while at the same time completely ignore the numerous class design flaws and outdated abilities the class has.

Dark Knight is not in a bad spot. It has 8 mitigation tools and the highest DPS of all tanks at the moment.

The problem with Dark Knight is that it didn't receive any self-sustain tools like Warrior, Gunbreaker, or Paladin. It still needs Living Dead addressed because it is functionally a horrible invulnerability mechanic due to the consequences that other tanks don't suffer from.

If it were me i'd change Oblation into an Aurora-esque ability similar to Gunbreakers. It already has 2 charges, and the mitigation from it wouldn't be missed if a HoT could be gained instead.

Change Living Dead into something less punishing.

And maybe tone its damage down a bit because its absurd right now at high end.

If it needs such changes then wouldn't it not be in a good spot?

I don't really see Warriors or Paladins asking for big and numerous changes.

Gunbreaker is okay too, I guess. Seems to have a higher skill ceiling to master.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

NIN is clunkier
SCH has gained nothing and fallen behind the other healers for it.
ASTs cards are terrible now (but it's saved by it's healing kit)

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Scholar/Sage is meta right now.

AST cards are the same as they've been for years now, and i'm surprised that it doesn't have a place in the current meta, tbh.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Machinist sucks right now, so do all of the healers once you get used to the kit, I hear dragoon isn't bad, just forgotten and kinda overshadowed

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Eh for Dragoon it's rotation is fine, all I'd say is some buff to potencies if anything since it doesn't feel like it hits that -hard-, but I might not also be used to the smaller numbers yet.

Nothing feels as bad to me as DRK atm, astro cards need fixed cuz the rng does feel awful even moreso than before thanks to astrodyne but the rest of the kit is still enjoyable. The other healers all feel fine, sch feels enjoyable to me now where I hated it in shb due to how clunky it felt.. it still has some weirdness in it's base but the fairy feels much more snappy and I actually like the 90 skill, sch is 100% superior to sage in my eyes. Monk feels weird but I have not played it enough yet to say too much other than I miss my postionals, though I still find myself going for them out of habit.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

machinist
still has its design flaws and didn't gain too much

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They really don't want machinist to be good in this game.

DRK is currently the worst tank in dungeons, and have suffered from losing abilities every expansion.

People who say DRK is not in a bad spot are people who have no idea what they are saying. It has so many problems I could make a list. And proof of that is the mega thread here in the forums that has almost 200 pages of players complaining about the job. The job has almost no healing in dungeons with the exception of abyssal drain and it's only worth using with 4 or more ads with a 60-second cooldown. Delirium is a bad copy of the inner release. Bloodweapon is clunky as hell, needs to be changed into a 5 gcd action. Dark mind is very niche and the living dead is horrible. Salted earth and its new skill look like it was made by my kid in his free time on his 10-year-old computer. Do you really think salt and darkness is expansion-worthy content? Shadowbringers is a line aoe just like the edge of shadow when it should be something unique, it's the level 90 skill. Not to even talk about his traits, "Enhanced Unmend" - Reduces recast time of Plunge by 5 seconds when executing Unmend on most targets - This trait is bad and lazy. It's just a 1-2-3 combo and popping off offgcd's when off cooldown. The job has no identity.

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

Monk feels weird but I have not played it enough yet to say too much other than I miss my postionals, though I still find myself going for them out of habit.

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I really wonder why they removed so many positionals and for who..
Its not the Monk mains thats for sure, because every Monk that I know is still doing the positionals ^^"
Obviously out of habit, but also because its more fun.

I can see why.

Positionals are kinda annoying for certain fights.

DRK isn't bad, it's just that WAR and the other tank's new healing cooldowns are bonkers and by comparison makes it look terrible.

Seriously, Bloodwhetting with a large pull might as well be a 10 second Invuln on a 25s Cooldown.

Blitz got old real fast, and MNK lost ogcd's ( Elixir Field and Tornado Kick were just reused and turned into gcds, and Flint Strike which is new is only for Synced content........... ).
MNK is basically just 123 and feels the same as it has since ARR 95% of the time...
I was really hoping for updated animations at the very least they look and feel outdated.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

I can see why.

Positionals are kinda annoying for certain fights.

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What fights exactly, you had so many ways of adapting to situations when you couldn't move into position...
Positionals were a non-issue most people complaining about them never even played MNK or even attempted to learn.
There's a reason why the removal of them has been so extremely unpopular amongst MNK mains.

Edit: Your MNK is at lvl 30, case in point.
I am getting so tired of these discussions about MNK precisely for the reason illustrated here.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

SCH has gained nothing and fallen behind the other healers for it.

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People were memeing that SCH was gonna suck because of the new job actions trailer but SCH is actually good. Expedient is a good cooldown to have. So no, SCH isn't really behind, you could even say it's ahead of the other healers because zoom zoom (I'm funny).

DRK is fine. Could it better? Sure. Does that mean it's not playable? No. It's not as black and white as people say it is.

TBN doesn't compare to Heart of Corundum, Holy Sheltron or Bloodwhetting. I main DRK, and I have no issues with wall-to-wall pulls unless the healer screws up or the DPS is on the low side and it takes forever to kill stuff.

DRK feels fine but it can definitely use some changes, like Blood Weapon having stacks sort of like how Delirium works right now, and maybe an upgraded TBN (reduced MP cost for example) or making Oblation a little stronger.

I would also like to see some flavor added to Sentinel, Shadow Wall, and Nebula for PLD, DRK and GNB since they do the same thing but with a different name.

I mean, no job is unplayable. Just some are way better off than others.

Monk are Summoner were playable before their rework. Does that mean that they didn't need it?

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Blitz got old real fast, and MNK lost ogcd's ( Elixir Field and Tornado Kick were just reused and turned into gcds, and Flint Strike which is new is only for Synced content........... ).
MNK is basically just 123 and feels the same as it has since ARR 95% of the time...
I was really hoping for updated animations at the very least they look and feel outdated.



What fights exactly, you had so many ways of adapting to situations when you couldn't move into position...
Positionals were a non-issue most people complaining about them never even played MNK or even attempted to learn.
There's a reason why the removal of them has been so extremely unpopular amongst MNK mains.

Edit: Your MNK is at lvl 30, case in point.
I am getting so tired of these discussions about MNK precisely for the reason illustrated here.

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You do know that players can have multiple characters, no?

Your insults are uncalled for.

And why keep positional, hm? It added nothing but a mechanic that punished certain jobs and not others.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

I mean, no job is unplayable. Just some are way better off than others.

Monk are Summoner were playable before their rework. Does that mean that they didn't need it?



You do know that players can have multiple characters, no?

Your insults are uncalled for.

And why keep positional, hm? It added nothing but a mechanic that punished certain jobs and not others.

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Honestly i don't mind positionals existing in some form but having one every single GCD was just stupid and i'm glad it's gone, actually making me level my MNK all the way up finally, Blitz is far more engaging than sidling slightly left to right every GCD imo.

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Originally Posted by DezereDawn

Honestly i don't mind positionals existing in some form but having one every single GCD was just stupid and i'm glad it's gone, actually making me level my MNK all the way up finally, Blitz is far more engaging than sidling slightly left to right every GCD imo.

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I get what you mean but pretty sure most people who played monk played it because they enjoyed the high positional requirements among other things

If the positionals bother you that much there's always other jobs that you can play, but monk was the only job that actually had a lot of positionals to think about and that was what made it unique

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Originally Posted by Maxilor

DRK isn't bad, it's just that WAR and the other tank's new healing cooldowns are bonkers and by comparison makes it look terrible.

Seriously, Bloodwhetting with a large pull might as well be a 10 second Invuln on a 25s Cooldown.

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This. 100%.

Dark Knight has 0 self-sustain and the other remaining tanks all got very good self-sustain.

The Dark Knight literally doesn't fail in any other category than this right now.

Normally when people talk down on jobs it’s something to do with how the kit is or lack of a kit.

Functionally and for balance sake only a few need to get nerfed and buffed, the game does a great job with balance

Tangible wise is mostly up to subjective perception, unless it’s clunky or barren. Someone may hate SAM but someone will love it per se. but someone will think SMN is complete and peaked but no one is gonna argue that it has too many mechanics.