Current EX trial completed without Healers

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1qL4y1J7Mh
(EX Trial 1)

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1qL4y1J7Mh?p=2
EX Trial 2


Say what you will but this shouldn't be happening IMHO this early into an expansion.

While I agree we don't need 3 threads on this...

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

While I agree we don't need 3 threads on this...

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Didn't see one in the healer forums for healers to discuss it.

not really surprised, I already solo healed the ex1 without a single gcd used so yea. I guess 8 warriors could do ex 2 as well

They did sadly say they were not planning on changing the amount of healing required. What did you expect?

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

While I agree we don't need 3 threads on this...

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Maybe we do. Pages filled with meme jokes and job-specific issues aside the basis of healer balance at its core is how unnecessarily the bulk of our healing is required. That should be the first thing addressed. I am more for tanks getting healing nerfs over healers but I can imagine though that Squeenix will read it as the players want potency healing nerfs. Inc...

This honestly makes me sad about the future of healing in 14.
"But Clover! They're crazy good Chinese players! Not the average person can do this!" The fact that it's even possible is what rubs me the wrong way. It's not healthy for a game when an entire Role can be nullified in a fight. Heck, Ramuh EX had people using SMN Titan to tank instead of an actual Tank, and SE removed that quick.

Here's hoping(maybe futilely) that the future has SOME sort of bone to throw us.

E4S was done without healers, 2 tank and 6 summoners.
EX trials are dealing so little damage it's a bit unfair.

But I don't think savage will escape the rule either. DNC+RPR will definitely be a stapple in those comps.
WAR and PLD healing is way too high, which I believe is cool to participate in the group survival.

Problem being, healers gets less and less responsibilities and it's not getting replaced with anything.
Just like ranged who had the mana battery and strong mitig snapped out of existence without being replaced with anything at all.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1qL4y1J7Mh
(EX Trial 1)

Say what you will but this shouldn't be happening IMHO this early into an expansion.

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So you're saying if i stack 4 dancers and 2 reapers i can cover the role of 1-2 healers? Nevermind it's killing your LB generation for more damage/kills and no bonus stats for even more damage.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

While I agree we don't need 3 threads on this...

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Pretty sure we do need at least a few threads on this when the game is that imbalanced. I've died to the first set of boss mechanics in dungeons in my first run and the group had no problem healing the rest of the fight from 90%-0%. I felt completely unneeded.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

So you're saying if i stack 4 dancers and 2 reapers i can cover the role of 1-2 healers? Nevermind it's killing your LB generation for more damage/kills and no bonus stats for even more damage.

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An entire role shouldn't be able to be disregarded in any content period, especially current content.

High end encounters can be done without healing from healers, but we've designed a whole Job (WHM) around being the healer that heals more.

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

They did sadly say they were not planning on changing the amount of healing required. What did you expect?

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If anything they've lowered the healing required significantly.

That EX trial only has 5-6 unavoidable raidwides in the entire fight. That's 2-3 per healer over a full 8 minute fight. It's an absolute joke.

I feel needed i’m constantly dying to dungeon boss mechanics and trials other people die too.

Someone's got to keep that floor mopped ;)

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

An entire role shouldn't be able to be disregarded in any content period, especially current content.

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Completely agree.
I don't care if it was just an Ex, if they needed a certain comp or if they're really good players. The expansion is still fresh, those trials are still fresh, we're by no means overgeared and we can already do an endgame fight without a role.
It shouldn't be possible to complete an endgame fight without healers or tanks or dps, especially only weeks after it released.
I'm fine with dungeon runs being possible without a tank or a healer or dps. But if incoming damage in a current Ex trial is so low that 2 tanks and 6 dps can take care of it, something is seriously wrong. The damage there is so infrequent, we have up to 3min of no raid damage happening. None at all. The most exciting thing is, when the whole raid got snake baited before the stack.
It has mechanics suited for an Ex trial, it has a dps check (albeit a lenient one, as expected from a trial), it has tank busters you can't take with a non-tank without dying. And then there's next to non-existent incoming damage and nothing else that is even remotely healer specific.

If they want to cuddle baby healers in DF content, fine.
But healers should be expected to fulfill their role in endgame content and Ex is part of it, even if it's the entry level difficulty.

The EX trial fight is designed with full of mechanics that require everyone to not get hit. They probably forgot about damages that need to be recovered by healer.

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Originally Posted by Miziliti

The EX trial fight is designed with full of mechanics that require everyone to not get hit.

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The sad part is they don't really. You can get hit by lots of the mechanics. Getting hit by Snakes or taking a cone aoe or green laser to the face just gives you a slap on the wrist and a Vuln stack, which your bored healers will probably be grateful for as they leap forward and barrage you with all the oGCD's they had sitting there unused. Getting hit is fine as long as you don't do it too often.

I've said it before, but if they won't change encounter design then healers need to become fully fledged support DPS with only resurrection and a couple party heals. The job design and the encounter design are just so incredibly at odds with each other and it's only getting worse over time. I suspect they couldn't fix the encounters any longer even if they wanted to, it might just be a too much of an overhaul this point in the game's lifecycle.

Healers not needed in dungeons at this point either. I feel pretty redundant at the moment in most content. I get busy when dps are making mistakes but when things go smooth it's so... so.. boring.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

The sad part is they don't really. You can get hit by lots of the mechanics. Getting hit by Snakes or taking a cone aoe or green laser to the face just gives you a slap on the wrist and a Vuln stack, which your bored healers will probably be grateful for as they leap forward and barrage you with all the oGCD's they had sitting there unused. Getting hit is fine as long as you don't do it too often.

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My very first clear and first few farms of EX1 was basically throwing bodies at the boss till we made it. Failed mechanics here & there but damages are so spaced in between, DPS check is hilariously forgiving, dying for most part doesn't guarantee a wipe because of missing players for upcoming mechanics. Heck if somebody knew the fight like the back of their hand, they can just mark this player to glue themselves for the entire encounter.

I've gotten the accessories I wanted from that trial & I'm not looking forward to do more of those, much lesser extent to 'optimize' it.

I have some questions :)

Was this clear in a group of organised players, for example a static? I’d find it hard to believe a random pug could clear without healers.

Also it seems that ex trials have been getting easier and easier since Stormblood with the only exception being the WoL trial - I’ve not done any of the ex trials - are they easy?

The step from Ex to Savage is usually quite big so if you will be able to clear the new savages comfortably without healers then that will be a big worry and possibly an indication that SE may want to remove the role entirely in the future.

If everybody does mechanics perfectly, there is very little healing needed in trial 1.
I think there are only 3 times where healing is required and these can definitely be soloed.

I don't think you could do a no healer in trial 2 though.... but some groups might still be able to surprise me XD

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

An entire role shouldn't be able to be disregarded in any content period, especially current content.

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The only thing I'm seeing from this is that dps healer utility is too powerful for those specific two jobs, the fact highly skilled players can negate the need for healing by stacking specific jobs and thus killing their LB generation does not mean "Omg healers are useless". YOu got to keep in mind a majority of players aren't playing at your gigachad level of skill.

I wonder just how low healing requirements would have to get before current healer design white knights would actually admit that healing gameplay is designed poorly?

Because apparently five whole unavoidable raidwides in an entire "extreme" encounter you can cover with dancer heals isn't down there yet.

Enjoy casting one spell over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, I can't imagine calling this slop "good design".

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

The only thing I'm seeing from this is that dps healer utility is too powerful for those specific two jobs, the fact highly skilled players can negate the need for healing by stacking specific jobs and thus killing their LB generation does not mean "Omg healers are useless". YOu got to keep in mind a majority of players aren't playing at your gigachad level of skill.

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Whilst feats like the one in the thread are nothing new and I agree that a job's core purpose shouldn't be negated, but this is one of those scenarios where it's not a regular group. Though I think it does draw attention to how crazy tanks changes can be. For sure having done that EX fight, I didn't feel useless as a healer, and I think it worked well with my kit. Though admittedly a fairly easy EX as we cleared early on in our second lockout and that may be a contributing factor to why those WAR could do it.

What did raise some red flags for me was doing the level 89 dungeon, I died early on during the second boss because I misread a mechanic. I wasn't needed for the whole fight. I've seen it happen 3 or 4 more times in general where the healer has died in EW. It used to be a thing in ShB too, we ran one of the late dungeons and the healer DC'd at the start and we made it all the way to the final boss before another showed up. And in each of these cases it wasn't that they were exceptional. But I think it ends up raising the question for the healer: was I really needed?
And I think it shows that for a chunk of this game's content that healers are just green DPS. And honestly, I think it'd be less of a complaint if there were the tools to compensate. Whilst I am happy with how SGE has turned out, I do feel this remains a bigger issue for the other healing jobs.

I wouldn't want to see them take it away from the tanks because it's another element to their job to make it interesting, but it inevitably will contribute to healer down time, so give healers more interesting stuff in their downtime. It seems a fair trade IMO.

Did you guys count the snakes as unavoidable damage? As they truly are.
You can join my prog parties, I can prove it too.

Ex-Healer turned DPS and now I have new perspective:

If I'm doing well, the healer is completely unnecessary. I'm usually practicing to be doing well. Which means my practice comes with the ultimate goal of excising a healer from me short of a DNC which, as a SAM, I am always chosen as a dance partner. Healers are borderline outdated by now and I regularly think to myself "Please don't heal me. I have Bloodbath. Just do more DPS or help the tank".

Essentially, healers are clinging to relevance while both tanks and DPS' are stomping on those clinging fingers with their boots as we practice to no longer need them. A corrosive take, I realize, but it's mine. n' I realize a likely response is "Then you don't deserve any heals". That's fine. That's my point. The fact that that's fine isn't okay, but that's the state of things and that's where SE drove your class.

Now I'm off to play a job that requires more than three buttons.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

I've said it before, but if they won't change encounter design then healers need to become fully fledged support DPS with only resurrection and a couple party heals. The job design and the encounter design are just so incredibly at odds with each other and it's only getting worse over time. I suspect they couldn't fix the encounters any longer even if they wanted to, it might just be a too much of an overhaul this point in the game's lifecycle.

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I agree, but current content requires 2 full healers for sloppy groups. If you dialed back the healing throughput, then many people couldn't finish content as currently tuned, which is apparently Square's primary concern. Optimized healers are just not a concern.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

I wouldn't want to see them take it away from the tanks because it's another element to their job to make it interesting, but it inevitably will contribute to healer down time, so give healers more interesting stuff in their downtime. It seems a fair trade IMO.

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YoshiP has already said that healers will never get more involved damage rotations, as poor players could be criticized for not doing enough damage on what is supposed to be a healing role.

I don't know that healing is very interesting for tanks; a lot of it is incidental to their play.

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Originally Posted by HappyHubris

I agree, but current content requires 2 full healers for sloppy groups. If you dialed back the healing throughput, then many people couldn't finish content as currently tuned, which is apparently Square's primary concern. Optimized healers are just not a concern.

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Eeeh, 2 is a stretch, as AST at least, both primals are a doddle to solo heal even with deaths and Vulnerability stacks

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Originally Posted by HappyHubris

YoshiP has already said that healers will never get more involved damage rotations, as poor players could be criticized for not doing enough damage on what is supposed to be a healing role.

I don't know that healing is very interesting for tanks; a lot of it is incidental to their play.

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With that kind of logic they might as well simplify all roles down to that level, not just healers. Give all tanks a single target attack, an aoe, and a boat load of tank cooldowns that go largely unused in most content. Give DPS a single button that does both single target and aoe damage, and have all their abilities activate automatically, no need to align raid buffs with one another any more. And give all healers a spammable assize with no cooldown and a 100 yalm radius that extends beyond any arena. That way poor players can finally focus on the fight itself and not have to worry about disappointing their peers or being judged.

At least until they manage to find new methods to fail catastrophically anyways.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I wonder just how low healing requirements would have to get before current healer design white knights would actually admit that healing gameplay is designed poorly?

Because apparently five whole unavoidable raidwides in an entire "extreme" encounter you can cover with dancer heals isn't down there yet.

Enjoy casting one spell over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, I can't imagine calling this slop "good design".

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I mean they didn’t care even when people cleared eden 4 savage with no healer. Like how worse can it get before you realize there is no new worse.

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Originally Posted by HappyHubris

YoshiP has already said that healers will never get more involved damage rotations, as poor players could be criticized for not doing enough damage on what is supposed to be a healing role.

I don't know that healing is very interesting for tanks; a lot of it is incidental to their play.

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I mean some healer player already don’t dps with two buttons. Do you actually think they care if they have 5 or 10 more buttons for dps, the only people you enrage with that are healer vets that have to buy 3 keyboards every expansion because the 1 key breaks after 1 raid tier ( true story for me but only 1 new keyboard after 3 raid tiers). I even did all trial fights in shadowbringer as a solo healer if I could and they still bored the crap out of me. I’m a meele in this expansion in my static and I still could heal the first ex trial solo as sage ( with 3 rezzes) and I was still bored too death.

I just don’t get anything the devs do anymore.

They act like healers will be desperately struggling to keep even a sliver of the party’s HP up, then release content that literally doesn’t even need them?
They act like the healer role is some extremely stressful, infinitely pressured job…then give the majority of dps and all four tanks powerful healing and defense cool downs? How can healers be so pressured by healing when Dancers/Reapers/Paladins/Warriors can do it all for them?

We aren’t allowed to have buffs or support gcds to manage or use, we aren’t allowed to have anything to heal, we aren’t allowed to do big shiny dps moves that are actually fun to use…what do they think is left?

And this is from the kind of person who honestly would be happy if we used Physick as many times as we use Broil IV now (replace heal with dps equivalent based on class lol). I genuinely enjoy having to manage healing gcds, mp, party/single target buffs. But the game literally doesn’t cater to any of us anymore. If you like being a healer that focuses on dps you’re out of luck. If you like being a healer that focuses on buffs or supporting the party, you’re out of luck. The best we get is a role that has nothing to heal, next to nothing to dps or support with, and can’t even do things that other roles can’t

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Eeeh, 2 is a stretch, as AST at least, both primals are a doddle to solo heal even with deaths and Vulnerability stacks

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I said "for sloppy groups." My point is that the game is designed for people who struggle to not get too taxed, not for the type of people who are interested enough to post on the healer forums.

For a lot of players, non-extreme primals require 2 heals and everyone still barely survives.

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Originally Posted by Connor

The best we get is a role that has nothing to heal, next to nothing to dps or support with, and can’t even do things that other roles can’t

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I would translate that by the role came down from "keep the party alive" to "make up for others' mistakes".

Honestly content at the start of expansions is normally undertuned to help facilitate the learnign process with new jobs/changes. Trials being done without healers is nothing new. Heck, even E4S was doen without healers and only smns for the phoenix regens. Ppl need to just chill for a sec.

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Originally Posted by HappyHubris

YoshiP has already said that healers will never get more involved damage rotations, as poor players could be criticized for not doing enough damage on what is supposed to be a healing role.

I don't know that healing is very interesting for tanks; a lot of it is incidental to their play.

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I know he has, but basically they either can make the content suit the kit or the kit to suit the content. The problem with ShB was that they did not fit together, because the content said "DPS more" but the kit was better designed for a stronger healing requirement.

And it's not like YoshiP hasn't changed his mind before in light of community feedback. That said, I think I'd prefer the balance to be more in favour of healing more. But if we /must/ follow a 30:70 ratio of healing:DPS in most content like in Endwalker then give us more better DPS options. Though my general argument has been a mix of the two, so the entry barrier to healing remains low. SGE seems like it might be a good middle ground, but time will tell.

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Originally Posted by Thoosa

I have some questions :)

Was this clear in a group of organised players, for example a static? I’d find it hard to believe a random pug could clear without healers.

Also it seems that ex trials have been getting easier and easier since Stormblood with the only exception being the WoL trial - I’ve not done any of the ex trials - are they easy?

The step from Ex to Savage is usually quite big so if you will be able to clear the new savages comfortably without healers then that will be a big worry and possibly an indication that SE may want to remove the role entirely in the future.

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No one seems to have answered you yet, so I'll give the best answers I can.

First, yes. This clear was in a group of organised players, I'd say a static as the video of the clear has voice chat in it.

Second, any fight in the game is easy after you've done it enough times. Something like this clear must have taken a good amount of practice and planning. As for your concern that SE may want to remove the healer role, I think they've had plenty of time to consider that after a seperate co-ordinated group cleared E4S with 2 Paladins, 1 Dancer and 5 Summoners.