Please revert the changes to Upheaval/Onslaught.

Title. Less of a discussion and more of a plea to the devs.

Not having Upheaval/Onslaught cost gauge anymore feels terrible. Literally only Fell Cleave can be used to manipulate Beast Gauge now. Those two also not getting direct crits anymore turns them into "just press on CD" buttons, where before you actually wanted to align them with IR.
Warrior was pretty easy to play in ShB, but now it's literally braindead and I can feel my brain shutting off playing it.
And I say this as a warrior main since 2.x

As for the "can't pull with dash" argument: instead of a trait giving us 3 charges on Onslaught, make it usable for free once outside of combat. There, done.

IMO, you still want to align it with the raid buffs, so it actually doesn't change anything, aside from the visual aspect of the gauge really...I would even dare saying it needs to have 2 charges for a bit more flexibility.

Warrior is actually pretty difficult if you optimize it.

I like how it is now. Feels great

Looks elsewhere to make War more engaging, most folks love the change to onslaught and upheaval...

Yeah I love it. Been asking for years and finally got it

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Originally Posted by Gilrim

instead of a trait giving us 3 charges on Onslaught, make it usable for free once outside of combat. There, done.

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Melees will hate your guts if you open with an Onslaught LOL. This trait would be useless. I agree that I'm not a fan of having to smash that Onslaught and prefered the old version because it was used just as gap closer and not a damage ogcd...

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Originally Posted by Atreides

Melees will hate your guts if you open with an Onslaught LOL. This trait would be useless. I agree that I'm not a fan of having to smash that Onslaught and prefered the old version because it was used just as gap closer and not a damage ogcd...

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i mean arguably they could fix all of the damage ogcd gap closers by just removing the potency on them and baking it somewhere else in the rotation, it doesn't need to be some weird clunky gauge mechanic.

I just picked up WAR this expansion so I don't know how the job was when it was 80 in ShB. I do know that skills that require and consume multiple resources drive me batty. If both Upheaval and Onslaught costed beast gauge while also having CD timers, I would have requested to relieve these abilities of one of those resources and potency adjusted to compensate for whichever direction they went.

Playing WAR these last couple of weeks, I've made some errors with the beast gauge despite only having two offensive skills tied to it. And that's because it is also tied to Infuriate and Inner Release, both of which also grant access to other skills. At this point of the learning process, things would undoubtedly be even tougher to grip if I also had to worry about Upheavel and Onslaught consuming the gauge. Of course, mine and other player's lack of practice and experience with WAR should not dictate how the job is designed; however, this simple change does make the job easier to pick up at the cost of stripping away a layer of complexity. Stripping away a little complexity is ok, so long as the benefit outweighs what the job loses. Veteran WARs would have to chime in on that.

Speaking of Upheavel specifically. The only thought process it requires is using the resource on it or Oregony, which will require three or more targets. I don't know if it needs to be any more than that, and if it was it would likely be something passive like knocking some seconds off of another very useful ability, or extending a timer currently in effect.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Stripping away a little complexity is ok, so long as the benefit outweighs what the job loses. Veteran WARs would have to chime in on that.

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Stripping a little complexity away would be okay if WAR had any left to begin with.

It basically has been an ongoing thing that warrior gets hit with the dum-dum stick every time they make changes to it since 4.2


The rework in SB made warrior go from "Do this specific 2 minute rotation to build up enough gauge and end on this specific GCD to get 6 Fellcleaves, 1 Upheaval and 2 Onslaughts in Inner Release+Berserk" to "Press Inner Release on cooldown and get 5 Fellcleaves, 1 Upheaval and 1 Onslaught in"
It still had a few things to look out for, like making sure you have atleast 18 seconds left on Storm's Eye when entering Inner Release and keeping an eye on Infuriate's cooldown, if it had 45 seconds or less left then you would need to enter Inner Release with <50 gauge to not overcap. It also had the memeheaval opener for when you needed to get your burst out in less than 9 GCDs



Then ShB came along and added a 2nd charge of Infuriate so there was barely any need to manage your gauge anymore because you never wanted to use Infuriate during IR anyway, the removal of tank stances killed the memeheaval opener. Then later they changed IR to extend the duration of Storm's Eye and the ability to extend the buff to 60 seconds, so you didn't need to really pay attention to the remaining duration anymore either.

All you had to do in ShB was press IR on cooldown, do an Inner Chaos before IR to not overcap on charges and don't let Upheaval drift, which basically just meant having atleast 20 gauge to press it on cooldown.


Now we're in Endwalker and the job has literally been reduced to "press things on cooldown". You can only spend gauge on Fellcleave so there is no gauge management, Upheaval doesn't benefit from IR anymore so it really doesn't matter if it drifts by a few GCDs, it will most likely still catch raid buffs, and since it doesn't cost gauge anymore you can always just press it on cooldown so it will align naturally. To top it all off Onslaught has been reduced to every other tank's "spend all your charges during your burst for dps"




I've simply given up hope that warrior will ever be anything but "unga bunga me smash" anymore, I packed up my things and switched to a tank that doesn't make me fall asleep during savage fights out of boredom.
My only fear is that they'll turn No Mercy into "reduces all Cartridge cost to 0" at some point because the changes made in EW are already concerning and we do have a precedent in Dark Knight.

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Originally Posted by NyneSwordz

Yeah I love it. Been asking for years and finally got it

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At the expense of what was preferred by Warrior mains who liked having an actual Beast Gauge rather than just Fell Cleave stacks and a gap-closer that offered slight gauge manipulation and was an actual gap-closer. Hurrayyyy.

Personally, I'd have been much happier with simply:

• Whenever Fell Cleave gets a buff, directly or indirectly (for example, Enhanced Infuriate), Onslaught gets a potency buff as not to inadvertently increase its potency cost for use (10-20 potency). Sure, give it two charges and a slightly longer cooldown if need be (15 or 20s), but no more than that.
• Warrior gets a "resting gauge" of 30 BG. While out of combat, you passively generate 5 gauge per HP/MP server tick up to that resting point, to a maximum of 20 higher than you had when you left combat.

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Originally Posted by DezereDawn

i mean arguably they could fix all of the damage ogcd gap closers by just removing the potency on them and baking it somewhere else in the rotation, it doesn't need to be some weird clunky gauge mechanic.

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Are we really considering any gauge that can be spent on more than one ability and its AoE version "weird" and "clunky"?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Are we really considering any gauge that can be spent on more than one ability and its AoE version "weird" and "clunky"?

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i'm personally not a big fan of abilities that both have a CD and a gauge spender on them, something about them just feels awkward to have 2 seperate resources tied to one thing, and it felt like a dps loss any time i had to use a gap closer on warrior due to it eating into my main Resource, that doesn't feel good when every other tank (Who were already higher dps anyways) could get away with just holding a cooldown charge and lose nothing for it

I should also state i play on JP from NA and having to double weave during IR to get crit Upheavals and onslaughts was a great way to clip just hard enough to lose my last Fell Cleave,

I know i'm not the greater warrior userbase and people are allowed to dislike this change in direction but i'm perfectly okay with these tweaks personally, the job already isn't super in depth so losing a little more for comfort isn't a crime to me.

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Originally Posted by DezereDawn

I should also state i play on JP from NA and having to double weave during IR to get crit Upheavals and onslaughts was a great way to clip just hard enough to lose my last Fell Cleave.

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Ngl, I am kinda scratching my head trying to figure out what did you even have to double weave on WAR, you have two ogcds to use. Is this one of those "I have to double weave all my defensives at once, because I don't see the TB coming until it's nearly deleted me" again?

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Originally Posted by Satarn

Ngl, I am kinda scratching my head trying to figure out what did you even have to double weave on WAR, you have two ogcds to use. Is this one of those "I have to double weave all my defensives at once, because I don't see the TB coming until it's nearly deleted me" again?

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fitting upheaval+Dash charges into inner release window is when i remember having to double weave during 5.x, maybe i was doing it wrong? didn't really need to do it in other places but they're also not having latency related problems so

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Originally Posted by DezereDawn

fitting upheaval+Dash charges into inner release window is when i remember having to double weave during 5.x, maybe i was doing it wrong? didn't really need to do it in other places but they're also not having latency related problems so

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Onslaught didn't have charges until 6.0 though. It had a 15 second cd so you could only use it once in IR, making it 2 weaves in 10 seconds, which should've been enough time to single weave them, especially since you didn't need to put Onslaught on cd asap. We used to cast it twice under IR back in 4.0-4.1, but that was with a 20 second IR/Zerk, with the second use near the end of it.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

Onslaught didn't have charges until 6.0 though. It had a 15 second cd so you could only use it once in IR, making it 2 weaves in 10 seconds, which should've been enough time to single weave them, especially since you didn't need to put Onslaught on cd asap. We used to cast it twice under IR back in 4.0-4.1, but that was with a 20 second IR/Zerk, with the second use near the end of it.

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ahh, my bad then, brain must have been getting the old mixed with the new, nevermind then <3

Most that asked for this didn't realize how incorrect they were. Onslaught was by far the best gapcloser.

You always should've had gauge available. It was free in IR so there's no excuse to not have it in IR. If you know you didn't need a gapcloser, dont worry about gauge.

3 reasons why old onslaught was better:
1.10s cd and always free under IR.
2. The player was not really punished for *not* using it (remember it's free in IR and its 10s so it would *always* be back)
3. Because it was actually a gapcloser, not a ogcd to spam.

While you *wanted* to not use it, if you wanted to preserve gauge because you know you're going to do a lot of aoe, it was better to onslaught than fell cleave.

Which is now the issue currently with upheaval and onslaught not costing gauge (similar to 5.0 scholar's issue with energy drain), as now we are LOSING GAUGE.

With this change, its clunky specifically because storms eye. If we didn't need to keep a passive buff up that's connected to a combo, this change wouldn't be so clunky. If it was like dark's passive buff, it wouldn't be so much of an issue.

So guess what? This change didn't really fix anything, because we are 100% losing gauge rather than sometimes losing it to onslaught over fell cleave. You always wanted to prioritize fell cleave and upheaval and only onslaught for uptime if you lost like 2 gcds.

Let me say it again: **we are losing gauge**

No offense, but usually players with your mindset are the ones to gapclose when you're just a step away from the boss, or worse: you pull the boss WITH onslaught, griefing your party. Another thing players like this think is that they actually think tank gapcloser are free when they are not: they have damage tied to them. So not using it under buff windows was a loss.

You didn't need to use onslaught. It was literally the best gapcloser along with it being the least punishing.

Now its quite literally the worst gapcloser.

The extra stack also does nothing as we don't get all 3 in 60s. The cd needs to be lower. And its actually more difficult because of this.

You and the others literally ruined onslaught and warrior's mobility.

Players just wanted it to pull the boss with it and its rather *infuriating*

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Originally Posted by Satarn

Onslaught didn't have charges until 6.0 though. It had a 15 second cd so you could only use it once in IR, making it 2 weaves in 10 seconds, which should've been enough time to single weave them, especially since you didn't need to put Onslaught on cd asap. We used to cast it twice under IR back in 4.0-4.1, but that was with a 20 second IR/Zerk, with the second use near the end of it.

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It was 15s in Stormblood. 10s in Shadowbringers. The 10s change actually fixed the issue (especially if you had to holmgang)

I don't think you actually used it in IR. iirc, it was only used outside of IR so you wouldn't overcap because you did not fell cleave outside of IR.

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Originally Posted by millktea

It was 15s in Stormblood. 10s in Shadowbringers. The 10s change actually fixed the issue (especially if you had to holmgang)

I don't think you actually used it in IR. iirc, it was only used outside of IR so you wouldn't overcap because you did not fell cleave outside of IR.

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Oh yeah, you're right, I forgot about the cd change in SHB, because it made very little functional difference honestly, as there was hardly a reason to use it more often.
I don't really see how that would help with weaving though, you still used one per IR, that's it. If you had easier time with Holmgang, that was likely because SHB removed root from the ability, so you wouldn't be forced to weave Onslaught before casting it. Either way, there were only 2 things to weave under post-4.2 IR, so there should be plenty of space to single-weave any mitigation you'd need.
Unless you mean times when you'd need to gap-close shortly before IR, but I wasn't talking about that, I was answering to the supposed double-weaving issue. There might've very well been fights where this came up, but I wouldn't know - I haven't touched SHB WAR since shortly after clearing Titan, as tanking that tier almost eroded my brain.

As for pre 4.2, you used it under IR(and regular Berserk as well) due to interactions between the amount of gauge you got to spend and the gcds inside the window at the time. You didn't have enough gauge and gcds to fit another FC in, so you dumped the gauge on Onslaughts to gain more potency under dmg and cost-halving buffs.

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Originally Posted by millktea

I don't think you actually used it in IR. iirc, it was only used outside of IR so you wouldn't overcap because you did not fell cleave outside of IR.

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You would use it in IR any time you didn't need to gap-close in the next 10 (originally 15) seconds. It was literally free damage after 4.2 (as opposed to siphoned away from other potencies in your kit as per the current design's "free" Onslaught damage) and was useful to spend as much Beast Gauge as possible during pre-4.2 IR.

You also absolutely could Fell Cleave outside of IR; Onslaught stopped being a potency gain (and it was slight even then) over Fell Cleave the moment you got Enhanced Infuriate. You just wanted to be sure reach pre-4.2 IR at 100 Beast Gauge, so Onslaught could help set that up.