A different Minor Arcana

Hi guys, first time posting on the OF. I listened to a couple interviews and heard Yoshi-P say that it would be more helpful if feedback were posted here.

I'm making this thread to discuss ideas for how Minor Arcana could be improved, because I think it's fairly likely that people will be dissatisfied with the version that is currently planned to release in EW. I know there's another thread about 6.0 AST up right now, but this one is just for discussing Minor Arcana suggestions.

To start it off, here's my suggestion.

I think Minor Arcana should take some cues from Masterful Blitz and NIN Mudras, and change its effect as follows.

Minor Arcana (Cooldown: 1 second)
Draws an arcanum using the astrosigns read from your divining deck.
Can only be executed after reading three astrosigns. Arcanum drawn is determined by the number of different types of astrosigns read.
1 Sign Type: Draws the Lord of Crowns
2 Sign Types: Draws the Peasant
3 Sign Types: Draws the Lady of Crowns
Peasant Effect: Increases damage dealt by a party member or self by 5%. Effect is doubled while no other party members are in the instance.
Lord of Crowns Effect: Increases damage dealt by a party member or self by 8% if target is melee DPS or tank, or 4% for all other roles.
Lady of Crowns Effect: Increases damage dealt by a party member or self by 8% if target is ranged DPS or healer, or 4% for all other roles.
Duration: 20s
Action changes to Crown Play upon execution.
Can only be executed while in combat.

In addition to this, Redraw would be reverted to its Shadowbringers functionality.
Sleeve Draw would be added back in its original Shadowbringers version (draw three cards), but with a 120s cooldown.
Draw would have its cooldown increased to 40 seconds, and the cards would have their duration increased to 20 seconds. You would only be able to execute Draw while in combat. Astrodyne would have to be removed.

Here's my reasoning for why I think this is a good idea.

I was trying to think of a way to give the player the ability to largely mitigate the RNG's impact with skilled play. With my proposed Minor Arcana, you'd only really have to fish for a favorable seal on the third one (maybe 3 charges of Redraw is too generous for this). But which pattern you fish for is gonna change from pull to pull, which might help keep things a bit more interesting. I also tried to make it so that each outcome would be desirable in certain situations, with only one (The Peasant) being undesirable in most normal cases.

I think they changed Sleeve Draw because it was too busy, so maybe it would be better to have it only be one extra card every minute, and keep Draw at a 30s cooldown, with card durations of 15s.

That's my idea. How about you? Let's have a fruitful discussion!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hozomeen

Hi guys, first time posting on the OF. I listened to a couple interviews and heard Yoshi-P say that it would be more helpful if feedback were posted here.

I'm making this thread to discuss ideas for how Minor Arcana could be improved, because I think it's fairly likely that people will be dissatisfied with the version that is currently planned to release in EW...

{snip}

That's my idea. How about you? Let's have a fruitful discussion!

---

Definitely a proposal worth considering and discussing.

As to this one line:

"I was trying to think of a way to give the player the ability to largely mitigate the RNG's impact with skilled play."

Not to be snarky or pessimistic, but I do wonder if SE was trying to think of a way to somewhat mitigate skilled play's impact with RNG. There is still some skill flex in the current iteration, but also more of an excuse not to get great combos too often.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tinythinker

Definitely a proposal worth considering and discussing.

As to this one line:

"I was trying to think of a way to give the player the ability to largely mitigate the RNG's impact with skilled play."

Not to be snarky or pessimistic, but I do wonder if SE was trying to think of a way to somewhat mitigate skilled play's impact with RNG. There is still some skill flex in the current iteration, but also more of an excuse not to get great combos too often.

---

Thank you. What are your thoughts on it?

I don't know about your theory. The RNG in the AST EW kit doesn't look to me like it would have any sort of equalizing effect.

While I do like the idea, the way things are set means that your always want to use Minor Arcana at 1 seal since, in planned content, you will always have a melee job. If Minor was on a 90s cooldown or could only be used if it has 3 seals, then the idea would be better. I do like where you're going with this, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by inhaledcorn

While I do like the idea, the way things are set means that your always want to use Minor Arcana at 1 seal since, in planned content, you will always have a melee job. If Minor was on a 90s cooldown or could only be used if it has 3 seals, then the idea would be better. I do like where you're going with this, though.

---

You think so? It's not clear to me at all that melee jobs will necessarily burst harder than casters. At the very least, I was hoping for the difference to be pretty negligible.

Oh, I think you may have not read closely enough. I do mean for it to only be able to be used at 3.

Edit: Also, part of my proposed rework would be putting Sleeve on a 120s CD and Draw on 40s, so that you would basically have 2 Minor Arcana every 2 minutes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hozomeen

You think so? It's not clear to me at all that melee jobs will necessarily burst harder than casters. At the very least, I was hoping for the difference to be pretty negligible.

Oh, I think you may have not read closely enough. I do mean for it to only be able to be used at 3.

Edit: Also, part of my proposed rework would be putting Sleeve on a 120s CD and Draw on 40s, so that you would basically have 2 Minor Arcana every 2 minutes.

---

I apologize. I did miss that. I had briefly skimmed since I was on my break at work.

I think "Peasant" would be better off named "Knave" imo.

One thing that does concern me is these are things being stacked with Divination. So, there's a bunch of cards being thrown out at the same time as a general buff is, so that's a lot of extra damage if we're using the 5.0 Sleeve Draw. If it's the 5.4 Sleeve Draw, then it's basically impossible to get the Lord effect unless we put that on two seals. However, we kinda lose the ability to use Knave on ourselves if we're the only one in the party. So, it becomes a question of how does Sleeve Draw fit into this if it does at all? I think your proposition with the current two-charge Draw system is actually a better way to take advantage of this idea. Personally, I really want Astrodyne to be a passable buff, and this idea for Minor Arcana is very much along the lines of what I want.

Personally, due to the cards not going toward Divination anymore, I don't really want Divination itself anymore. What I like about current Divination is that it's a reward we're building up toward for using our cards well. As it is now, it's boring. It has no interactivity with the rest of our kit. Your idea makes AST more focused on buffing specific party members with the cards fate has dealt, and I really think that gives AST a very strong identity, kinda like a Dancer, only they can freely switch Dance Partners, basically.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by inhaledcorn

I apologize. I did miss that. I had briefly skimmed since I was on my break at work.

I think "Peasant" would be better off named "Knave" imo.

One thing that does concern me is these are things being stacked with Divination. So, there's a bunch of cards being thrown out at the same time as a general buff is, so that's a lot of extra damage if we're using the 5.0 Sleeve Draw. If it's the 5.4 Sleeve Draw, then it's basically impossible to get the Lord effect unless we put that on two seals. However, we kinda lose the ability to use Knave on ourselves if we're the only one in the party. So, it becomes a question of how does Sleeve Draw fit into this if it does at all? I think your proposition with the current two-charge Draw system is actually a better way to take advantage of this idea. Personally, I really want Astrodyne to be a passable buff, and this idea for Minor Arcana is very much along the lines of what I want.

Personally, due to the cards not going toward Divination anymore, I don't really want Divination itself anymore. What I like about current Divination is that it's a reward we're building up toward for using our cards well. As it is now, it's boring. It has no interactivity with the rest of our kit. Your idea makes AST more focused on buffing specific party members with the cards fate has dealt, and I really think that gives AST a very strong identity, kinda like a Dancer, only they can freely switch Dance Partners, basically.

---

Yeah, "Peasant" was just what I came up with on the spot, haha. My first idea was to just have a 2-1 split give a weaker form of Astrodyne, but I think a third card would be more on theme.

You are right that this would make for very potent 2 minute windows. I guess the concrete power of the ability would need to be carefully balanced. You seem to be generally in favor of having it work this way in principle, though. Right?
I wanted to incorporate Sleeve Draw into my proposal, because I think it would be best for one of these to be available in the opener.

I think Astrodyne in its planned form is another instance of pretty bad RNG. It's RNG that allows no real way to interact with it. Sure, you can reroll. But in the end, there's only one way to get lucky, and if you don't get it, tough shit. Therefore, I don't think it should even necessarily stay in the game, much less be passable. Placing haste buffs on other players has historically been mostly a source of awkward interactions and janky rotational timings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hozomeen

Yeah, "Peasant" was just what I came up with on the spot, haha. My first idea was to just have a 2-1 split give a weaker form of Astrodyne, but I think a third card would be more on theme.

You are right that this would make for very potent 2 minute windows. I guess the concrete power of the ability would need to be carefully balanced. You seem to be generally in favor of having it work this way in principle, though. Right?
I wanted to incorporate Sleeve Draw into my proposal, because I think it would be best for one of these to be available in the opener.

I think Astrodyne in its planned form is another instance of pretty bad RNG. It's RNG that allows no real way to interact with it. Sure, you can reroll. But in the end, there's only one way to get lucky, and if you don't get it, tough shit. Therefore, I don't think it should even necessarily stay in the game, much less be passable. Placing haste buffs on other players has historically been mostly a source of awkward interactions and janky rotational timings.

---

I may not have been clear with what I wanted from Astrodyne. I don't necessarily want Astrodyne's current iteration as a passible buff, but rather I want the cards and seals I'm working toward be something I can pass to another. That's how AST plays. It has low personal DPS to make up for the strong support it provides. Your proposal captures the idea of what AST wants to do, pass damage buffs, but still accounting for what the devs want from Astrodyne, personal AST damage, in one go. That being said, your proposal also accounts for bad RNG by still guaranteeing a damage buff, which current Astrodyne does not. We can now more accurately account for AST damage being either a 4-5% DPS increase every 90~s on top of the extra card DPS ~30s. This allows us to better prepare who gets the big Minor Arcana buff when while still having some RNG with the general card usage. This is the best of both worlds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by inhaledcorn

I may not have been clear with what I wanted from Astrodyne. I don't necessarily want Astrodyne's current iteration as a passible buff, but rather I want the cards and seals I'm working toward be something I can pass to another. That's how AST plays. It has low personal DPS to make up for the strong support it provides. Your proposal captures the idea of what AST wants to do, pass damage buffs, but still accounting for what the devs want from Astrodyne, personal AST damage, in one go. That being said, your proposal also accounts for bad RNG by still guaranteeing a damage buff, which current Astrodyne does not. We can now more accurately account for AST damage being either a 4-5% DPS increase every 90~s on top of the extra card DPS ~30s. This allows us to better prepare who gets the big Minor Arcana buff when while still having some RNG with the general card usage. This is the best of both worlds.

---

Ah ok, thank you, I understand. I'm glad you agree that this would be a good change!

I posted a thread on reddit asking for some more input on this topic. Here, I will try to summarize briefly what that discussion has yielded so far.

Many posters seemed not to think that there is anything wrong with how Minor Arcana is supposed to release.

Still, three suggestions for how to change the skill were brought up:

1. Have Minor Arcana give you the 250 potency damage Lord or 400 potency healing Lady depending on which normal arcanum you currently have drawn, with the skill requiring that you have an arcanum drawn.
2. Just remove Minor Arcana, add Sleeve Draw back in to make obtaining the optimal Astrodyne outcome easier.
3. Turn arcana in general into complete utility effects, removing any kind of damage buff. Only Divination would provide a damage buff.

What do you think of these suggestions?

I like all of them more than the currently planned version of Minor Arcana, but each of them comes with some issues in my opinion. Suggestion 1 might lead to the optimal play being to drift Minor Arcana until you can guarantee a Lord, which would feel unwieldy. Suggestion 2 just seems a bit too much like giving up, plus Astrodyne kind of brings with it the same problems current Divination does. I'd rather Astrodyne get axed than Minor Arcana, since buffing others is just more on theme for AST than a steroid for yourself. Suggestion 3 I think would need some more fleshing out, to make sure that the utility effects are varied and useful enough. Maybe someone here has some ideas?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hozomeen

1. Have Minor Arcana give you the 250 potency damage Lord or 400 potency healing Lady depending on which normal arcanum you currently have drawn, with the skill requiring that you have an arcanum drawn.
2. Just remove Minor Arcana, add Sleeve Draw back in to make obtaining the optimal Astrodyne outcome easier.
3. Turn arcana in general into complete utility effects, removing any kind of damage buff. Only Divination would provide a damage buff.

---

1. I guess this is fine, but it then introduces the problem of you having to weave in Minor Arcana inbetween Draw and Redraw/Play during burst which isn't desirable in my opinion
2. Why remove another part of AST? A reoccurring complaint of this job was always "SE removing job identity". Sleeve Draw can be returned regardless of whether or not MA exists because MA is not part of the main card system anymore
3. This is also fine, but then what utility would you suggest? Bole, back in Stormblood, was actually a really good card providing 10% mitigation to everyone or 20% single target for 30 seconds, but it was considered garbage because it was unreliable when you drew it. Adding random bits of utility to cards would just introduce the same problem of "Balance fishing" but instead of damage, you're looking for the best utility.

I personally like what we're getting come Endwalker in regards to MA. It's the Minor Arcana for a reason, so it's not supposed to play a huge role compared to the Major Arcana. It was pretty bad in Stormblood in terms of everyone wanting Lord, but that was because 1. Lord was significantly higher potency and 2. Lady was a single target heal which is a lot less useful. With the new MA, theoretically speaking if a Lady saves you from having to use a cast of Helios, you gain a Malefic which is no different than if you had drawn a Lord.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmurT

1. I guess this is fine, but it then introduces the problem of you having to weave in Minor Arcana inbetween Draw and Redraw/Play during burst which isn't desirable in my opinion
2. Why remove another part of AST? A reoccurring complaint of this job was always "SE removing job identity". Sleeve Draw can be returned regardless of whether or not MA exists because MA is not part of the main card system anymore
3. This is also fine, but then what utility would you suggest? Bole, back in Stormblood, was actually a really good card providing 10% mitigation to everyone or 20% single target for 30 seconds, but it was considered garbage because it was unreliable when you drew it. Adding random bits of utility to cards would just introduce the same problem of "Balance fishing" but instead of damage, you're looking for the best utility.

I personally like what we're getting come Endwalker in regards to MA. It's the Minor Arcana for a reason, so it's not supposed to play a huge role compared to the Major Arcana. It was pretty bad in Stormblood in terms of everyone wanting Lord, but that was because 1. Lord was significantly higher potency and 2. Lady was a single target heal which is a lot less useful. With the new MA, theoretically speaking if a Lady saves you from having to use a cast of Helios, you gain a Malefic which is no different than if you had drawn a Lord.

---

Good point about the awkward weave with suggestion 1. And yeah, I'm sceptical about the possibility of having 8 different, useful types of utility for the cards. Maybe it could be like heal, mitigation, extra HP and something else, in Area and Single Target versions. But I'm honestly not too stoked about making mitigation randomly available, that would just not fit well into the game.

I'm really extremely sceptical about that situation Momo mentioned arising regularly. You likely won't be casting enough Helios for them to regularly be replaced by Ladies you draw.