Wow, So The Game is Becoming Even More Easy?

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While I agree with much of this, I don't think for a second that Yoshi and team live in a vacuum. I'm dead sure certain money and marketing types are breathing down certain developer type necks to make this game as profitable and wide reaching as possible. FFXIV is SE's cash cow.

(They have forks?? I might need one <.<)

Yep, when I heard that, I inmediatly canceled my pre-order for endwalker.

I mean in this thread you've already said that you'll stick around anyways, so no sales lost. The game is tuned for the widest audience possible, with a few bones thrown towards players who want challenge at the cutting edge of endgame.

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Originally Posted by HappyHubris

I mean in this thread you've already said that you'll stick around anyways, so no sales lost. The game is tuned for the widest audience possible, with a few bones thrown towards players who want challenge at the cutting edge of endgame.

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Yeah, the irony.

At least wow refugees speak with their actions

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Originally Posted by LanFangHua

Yep, when I heard that, I inmediatly canceled my pre-order for endwalker.

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For real. At this point, we have to vote with our money. People are saying they’re avoiding certain classes because they want changes, but they’re still buying endwalker and paying subscription monthly. So what’s the difference to the company?

It’s a little depressing, but we’re just going to have to realize that Square is a company and they’re out to make money.

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Originally Posted by EmpyreanHelios

For real. At this point, we have to vote with our money. People are saying they’re avoiding certain classes because they want changes, but they’re still buying endwalker and paying subscription monthly. So what’s the difference to the company?

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There is more to this game then Healer gameplay you know.
Just because I dislike what they did with Healing this last expac, does not mean I suddenly don't care about the story, the gold saucer gates, treasure maps and all the other thigns that make the game fun for me.

If non of the Healers end up being fun, I'll drop those like a hot potatoe and enjoy the fun as a dps or tank. Because as far as I can tell, that's the roles SE cares about.

At this point, catering to the casuals will not kill the game. It'll do the exact opposite. The reason being that they've already soft-labelled the game as "casual MMO" for the past few years and had a great success drawing in the target audience. You might feel that more complex gaming experience makes the game better which I subjectively agree. But that's just, our own opinions man.

Gameplay being accessible is completely fine and is probably the way to go.
Most (all?) games are enjoyable by most players thanks to the simple inputs IMO.
As long as the enemies are varied enough and fun to fight it's fine.
And that's precisely why people are rushing dungeons. It is not because playing their job is not fun. It is because the enemies there are not really fun to fight after the first few runs.
IMO the complex gaming experience has to come from the encounters, not from your rotation. (now of course the evolution of the bosses complexity over the years could probably be a discussion point as well)
But yeah, it's all subjective of course.

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Originally Posted by Sani2341

There is more to this game then Healer gameplay you know.
Just because I dislike what they did with Healing this last expac, does not mean I suddenly don't care about the story, the gold saucer gates, treasure maps and all the other thigns that make the game fun for me.

If non of the Healers end up being fun, I'll drop those like a hot potatoe and enjoy the fun as a dps or tank. Because as far as I can tell, that's the roles SE cares about.

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Fair but unfortunately the tank gameplay is in the same boat as the healers.. we've been knocked down to having the same spread across the classes no matter which tank you pick just like healers..

The truth is that until SE hires a dedicated Tank an Healer dev the tank an healer classes will always be on the backburner.. you look at all the dps classes from Endwalkers trailers they all look new an exciting.. then compare it to tanks an healers and you can see they have nothing new(except pally that new swords is pretty cool) but honestly how can we expect them to do better with classes that even their own Devs don't like to play.. its unfortunate that the role of tanks an healers and placed into the hands of devs that make them only do whatever they want as from the point of view of a dps.. which is stand there and get hit.. or stand there and press a heal or 1 damage skill for 15-20min

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Originally Posted by Baxcel

The truth is that until SE hires a dedicated Tank an Healer dev the tank an healer classes will always be on the backburner.. you look at all the dps classes from Endwalkers trailers they all look new an exciting.. then compare it to tanks an healers and you can see they have nothing new(except pally that new swords is pretty cool)

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You say that, but out of all the jobs, I feel like Pally could be the one being changed the least gameplay-wise.
It might look the flashiest of all tanks in the trailer, but the new flashy thing could just be replacing goring after the requiescat window, which, in fact, wouldn't change the rotation at all.

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Originally Posted by Sani2341

There is more to this game then Healer gameplay you know.
Just because I dislike what they did with Healing this last expac, does not mean I suddenly don't care about the story, the gold saucer gates, treasure maps and all the other thigns that make the game fun for me.

If non of the Healers end up being fun, I'll drop those like a hot potatoe and enjoy the fun as a dps or tank. Because as far as I can tell, that's the roles SE cares about.

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lmfao SE gives an exponentially negatory amount of shizzz about both tanks and healers. despite the near infinite revenue this game has brought them since SHB, they never hired dedicated tanks and healer devs to fix the problems (they instead force their DPS devs to do it, devs which have stated before that THEY DONT LIKE PLAYING TANKS OR HEALERS), they never hired additional devs to fix the 1.0 spaghetti code that prevents them from revamping encounter and boss design (which is why I suspect they went towards a more complicated job design in STB), and they most certainly never bothered to look at the ~3 years worth of VALID CRITICISM found in these forums.

you're right in that there is more to this GAME than healer GAMEPLAY
but isn't the point of a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE ROLE PLAYING GAME to offer a wide variety of GAMEPLAY STYLES to its varied audience, especially if that audience is forking over $15+/mo?
and before you say anything, yes I've been in love with the story, music, the world, the characters, and the overall aesthetic of the GAME since ARR, but if the GAMEPLAY of the GAME is as deep as a drop of water, well..


"there wasnt much we could do with drk/sch/mch/brd/pld/drg/sam/dnc"

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Originally Posted by ChocoPuni

I think they just want the very casual audience to be hooked on so they would buy 100$ mounts and all the minions. I got some, too and eventually realized I'm just stretching the game hard to find something that makes me less angry at how boring the combat is. This is especially noticeable, coming in after Sekiro and FF Origins trial where all these roles (white mage, dragoon, black mage) are FUN and come to life, even if the dungeons are very similar to FF XIV.

And yeah, I think there are some forks, though I might have been wrong on their price, it's like 40$?

I can understand wanting to keep the game profitable but nothing stops them from making separate modes for people who want hardcore action.

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Boring the heck out of them with 1-diminsional gameplay isn't the way to hook anyone. Healer gameplay sucks; very few enjoy spamming 1 button over and over again.

I think there're some quite popular games where gameplay is just watching battles without any player input, called autobattles or something? Not very familiar, but I wouldn't underestimate the casual audience ^^

That said, I don't think the oversimplification itself is the problem with current healers, but rather the part of the kit they chose to simplify was just... wrong. "Healers heal" idea is incompatible with "casual mmo" one: job kit focused on the part that has hard cap and you deliberately aren't allowing to fail at in the majority of the content will always lead to horrible gameplay.

Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind tales of arise approach? We'd be able to choose the hard mode, while casuals could... experience the story and focus on the characters! ^_^

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Originally Posted by ChocoPuni

As if they would care for my sales anyway, lol. Yoshi P is too busy being a rockstar for teenagers and young adults, simplifying the already brain-dead combat - the core of any game.

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I'm pretty sure casual players are not madeup of just these age brackets.

I consider myself a casual player in terms of content I do, however I would like playing healer to feel more engaging and fun. This doesn't mean it has to make things difficult for certain players either. I would like to see them have more confidence in the capabilities of their players.

This won't stop me from playing though because I can still play any job on my character. I may be opting to play another role.

Players are all free to speak with their wallet. I'm not going to tell them to play another job tho, that's not my place.

From what I heard and I don’t know how accurate it is, the budget for 14 is tight, so I’d imagine they have to be pretty ruthless in what they prioritise and may explain why they have a formula that never changes.

Also apparently there are parts of the code that are a spaghetti mess which will development difficult and costly?

Appealing to the most amount of people will bring in more sub money so who knows if they increase budget for other things? If hardcore players drop off, it won’t have much impact as I think as they are a minority.

I also heard there’s still issues with people quitting before finishing arr? A new expansion won’t help that and may dissuade people to trawl from 1-90 if they just want to raid.

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Originally Posted by ChocoPuni

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There are plenty of action-oriented MMOs out there. Sounds like those would be more suited to your tastes.
The same argument that you have about 'FF14 is WoW with a FF paint job over it' could be used for FF Origins: "It is NiOh with a FF paint job over it".

Your comparison to Xenoblade kinda stands, but...I really did not find complexity at all when I played XC1. You really just have to press the buttons as they light up. It's not any different from low-level XIV.
And XC2 was so overly and needlessly complex that most people did not even care trying to learn how intricate it really was and mostly just touched the surface. XIV is somewhere in the middle between XC1 and XC2 in terms of gameplay complexity IMO.

That said, you have one point: XC's gameplay is pretty much consistent from the beginning. XIV on the other hand has a very slow ramp-up. So yeah, when you go back to a low level classes, it doesn't really feel great.

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Originally Posted by Garnix

IMO the complex gaming experience has to come from the encounters, not from your rotation.

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This is my preference too. Less looking at hotbars and more time looking at what the boss is doing.

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Originally Posted by ChocoPuni

sigh, except FF Origins manages to feel distinct and like an actual FF game despite the obvious code work being taken from Nioh. While FF XIV can't offer anything substantial despite having everything going for it.
But don't worry, I didn't expect anything else from people who can't look past the visuals and focus on substance

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Hard disagree. But don't worry, I don't expect anything else from people who can't look past level 60 dungeon gameplay.

Considering the scenario that Shadowbringers saw a massive spike in new players, it would be insane choice to pivot into content difficulty hard enough to make old veterans struggle. I have seen the Struggle Titania fights.

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Originally Posted by Arrhin

FFXIV is SE's cash cow.)

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Perhaps in the year 2013, when it allowed the company to continue operations after the disastrous 1.0 release.

Please be aware that the mobile gaming sector of Square Enix creates about 3 times as much in revenue than the whole MMO gaming sector for the company. FFXIV is not the 'cash cow' people think it is. It only contributes about 10% of company revenue in any given quarter.

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Originally Posted by bundythenoob

despite the near infinite revenue this game has brought them since SHB

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8-10 billion yen in revenue during a given quarter is not 'near infinite' for a company which averages around 80 billion yen in revenue per quarter.

This attitude (near infinite) appears to stem from dim memories of 8 years ago, and does not reflect the current gaming market in which Square Enix participates. The sooner players get over that attitude, the better.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Perhaps in the year 2013, when it allowed the company to continue operations after the disastrous 1.0 release.

Please be aware that the mobile gaming sector of Square Enix creates about 3 times as much in revenue than the whole MMO gaming sector for the company. FFXIV is not the 'cash cow' people think it is. It only contributes about 10% of company revenue in any given quarter.

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By that logic we should all burn our PCs and consoles and embrace mobile gaming, never looking back.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

By that logic we should all burn our PCs and consoles and embrace mobile gaming, never looking back.

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Being realistic about the importance of sources of revenue generated for a multi-sector entertainment company does not imply the PC/Console Gaming World is going to collapse.

The quoted statement is hyperbole, as are the uses of terms such as 'near infinite' [referring to revenue] and 'cash cow' when referencing the Final Fantasy MMOs.

They've dumbe.... er streamlined the gameplay with every expansion so far.
No reason to expect anything otherwise moving forward.

I actually feel sad for the players who weren't around before, to see how good the combat could be.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

They've dumbe.... er streamlined the gameplay with every expansion so far.
No reason to expect anything otherwise moving forward.

I actually feel sad for the players who weren't around before, to see how good the combat could be.

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Truth, now I know EXACTLY how Emet Slech feels. This is exactly what he felt.

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

Truth, now I know EXACTLY how Emet Slech feels. This is exactly what he felt.

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SPOILER































https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...39/786/dbb.jpg

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

8-10 billion yen in revenue during a given quarter is not 'near infinite' for a company which averages around 80 billion yen in revenue per quarter.

This attitude (near infinite) appears to stem from dim memories of 8 years ago, and does not reflect the current gaming market in which Square Enix participates. The sooner players get over that attitude, the better.

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so rather than ask the all important question of why our sub money is not being used to fund the hiring of additional developers to fix the problems that the devs themselves know about, as well as the criticisms the playerbase has been pointing out since HW, you choose to attack my argument based on the fact that its an obvious exaggeration?

I hope they don't butcher whatever jobs you play for the "sake of building upon Endwalker jobs". the last thing I want is for even more jobs to suffer what DRK and SCH have been through.

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Originally Posted by bundythenoob

lmfao SE gives an exponentially negatory amount of shizzz about both tanks and healers. despite the near infinite revenue this game has brought them since SHB, they never hired dedicated tanks and healer devs to fix the problems (they instead force their DPS devs to do it, devs which have stated before that THEY DONT LIKE PLAYING TANKS OR HEALERS), they never hired additional devs to fix the 1.0 spaghetti code that prevents them from revamping encounter and boss design (which is why I suspect they went towards a more complicated job design in STB), and they most certainly never bothered to look at the ~3 years worth of VALID CRITICISM found in these forums.

you're right in that there is more to this GAME than healer GAMEPLAY
but isn't the point of a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE ROLE PLAYING GAME to offer a wide variety of GAMEPLAY STYLES to its varied audience, especially if that audience is forking over $15+/mo?
and before you say anything, yes I've been in love with the story, music, the world, the characters, and the overall aesthetic of the GAME since ARR, but if the GAMEPLAY of the GAME is as deep as a drop of water, well..


"there wasnt much we could do with drk/sch/mch/brd/pld/drg/sam/dnc"

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I pretty much agree with all this

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Originally Posted by bundythenoob

so rather than ask the all important question of why our sub money is not being used to fund the hiring of additional developers to fix the problems that the devs themselves know about, as well as the criticisms the playerbase has been pointing out since HW, you choose to attack my argument based on the fact that its an obvious exaggeration?

I hope they don't butcher whatever jobs you play for the "sake of building upon Endwalker jobs". the last thing I want is for even more jobs to suffer what DRK and SCH have been through.

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My guess is that it's hard to hire those talents especially in Japan. I've seen other gaming companies suffer from the same issue despite making millions.

And then there's the fact that they put resources on higher priority projects such as new jobs and new contents. In EW we can see SMN getting a decent rework already and it's higher priority than SCH due to the sheer amount of players that play it.

They are definitely using the money on the edge, it's just that SCH is not the edge lmao.

This is what I enjoy