Mch needs more

Is this is caster fantasy 14? Or is physical range dps especially mch is not a thing? They reworked smn like 5 times already. But have no time to put in more effort into phy range dps especially mch. You can go back and watch when they were discussing phy range dps. Listen how depressing the list translator and yoshi p sound. Like they hate that job. The fact they said you can't do much to it? Shows they know nothing about flamethrower problems etc. As long as the community stay quiet they will not care. Queen should be used more. Or give us more mechs? Why did we go back to get a 1970s shot gun? Where are the rickets? Lasers? Oh wait... the lasers are w with sage. Lol by now we should have a king mech? They could use the old mechs from Alexander raid. Melee form,range,magic,tank mechs. You can make ruby weapon etc. But no new mechs? This is gunner with queen

Soooooooooooooooooo... Yes, there's topics like this a bit everywhere.
I'd just like to point out that the side of the community who fully enjoys MCH is mostly composed of casuals. They don't know about the many problems of the job until they face those. Most of them have no idea that Flamethrower is the lowest priority of aoes, or about the Flamethrower tick fishing.
Job action was safe but uncreative, gotta agree.

SMN really needed a rework but they sure have a bias towards caster. If you compare MCH rework and DRK rework to SMN rework, it jumps to the eyes.
SMN gets a crap ton of work each expansion and they're even reluctant to nerf the job regardless of how broken it is.

But that SMN reworks seems final and honestly feels like the MCH curse. A job designed for my grandma.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Most of them have no idea that Flamethrower is the lowest priority of aoes, or about the Flamethrower tick fishing.

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At risk of exposing my ignorance, what the heck are these?
I think I may be familiar with the concepts, but I've never heard these terms before.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

At risk of exposing my ignorance, what the heck are these?
I think I may be familiar with the concepts, but I've never heard these terms before.

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Oh I thought it was common knowledge, maybe not?

As you probably know, Flamethrower acts in a unique way:
For the next 10 seconds you will deal damages worth of 100 potency every seconds in front of you. sq

If I remember well, at the beginning of ShB, Flamethrower was a simple cooldown so you could use it and grab 2 ticks worth of 100 potency.
Now that it triggers the GCD, you can't do that as it's not worth losing a GCD.

Today, it's most likely used before a boss reappear. Between the time you target the boss and cancel Flamethrower with a GCD, you have a small chance of getting a tick in there.
Every minutes, when the boss is not targetable, you have an occasion to gain 100 potency. What really makes it annoying to use is that sometimes, you need to Reassemble -> Flamethrower -> Boss is targetable -> Break with Drill.
Reassemble is only 5 seconds so you need to time it really well... or use external tools but I've never digged into this. If you fail, you lose Reassemble and it's not even garanteed to get the 100 potency.

Obviously, so much trouble for 100 potency is more than often not worh the pain.
Even then, it's quite annoying that it exist when tried to optimize your performances.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I'd just like to point out that the side of the community who fully enjoys MCH is mostly composed of casuals. They don't know about the many problems of the job until they face those. Most of them have no idea that Flamethrower is the lowest priority of aoes, or about the Flamethrower tick fishing.

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This reply carries a thick stench of elitism.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Snipping info about Tick Fishing

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Ah. Gotcha gotcha.
I didn't realize there was a term for this trick, thank you~

But what's this about it being the "lowest priority AoE?"
I didn't realize moves had priority. What do you mean by this?

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

This reply carries a thick stench of elitism.

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It's more alike to a musky scent of age... as opposed to that of a job reduced to infancy (5.x MCH).

Elitism or not, they're still right about Flamethrower and the fact that it remains as it is, is astoundingly baffling. Even from a casual perspective, the feedback from it is so laughably non-existent, you don't even know if you're doing damage with it or not unless you want to squint really hard at numbers. (Or use external means)

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Soooooooooooooooooo... Yes, there's topics like this a bit everywhere.
I'd just like to point out that the side of the community who fully enjoys MCH is mostly composed of casuals. They don't know about the many problems of the job until they face those. Most of them have no idea that Flamethrower is the lowest priority of aoes, or about the Flamethrower tick fishing.

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Just doing some quick napkin math with potency values, and Spread spam is lowest aoe priority even counting heat and subsequent autocrossbow.

It's Bio (360/GCD) -> BS Auto (300) -> Flamethrower (250) -> Spread Spam (207)

Cursory searching shows Flamethrower fishing being less than .2% of your total damage. This is significantly less than Stormblood Seigan (Shadowbringer Seigan is a little higher) and that was safely ignorable.

That said, Flamethrower and Bioblaster really should have an interaction with each other - Both to spice up AoE, and potentially be something you change up your ST rotation around when Flamethrower is ready.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Just doing some quick napkin math with potency values, and Spread spam is lowest aoe priority even counting heat and subsequent autocrossbow.

It's Bio (360/GCD) -> BS Auto (300) -> Flamethrower (250) -> Spread Spam (207)

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Here are the per-second values:

Bioblaster: 360p / 2.5s = 144p/s
Autocrossbow: 180p / 1.5s = 120p/s
Flamethrower: 100p/s (Flamethrower ticks 1tick/s instead of the usual 1tick/3s)
Spread Shot: 180p /2.5s = 72p/s

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

even counting heat

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Heat doesn't affect AoE actions, so you only have to worry about Autocrossbow being on a minimal GCD.

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

This reply carries a thick stench of elitism.

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Ever since your posts on healer mains being melodramatic, I’ve never seen you debate anything worthwhile.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

Elitism or not, they're still right about Flamethrower and the fact that it remains as it is, is astoundingly baffling.

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Does it though?
The animation in the trailer only ran for like...3seconds. (which yes, was the same in ShB job actions trailer)
But it's quite impossible to tell if it is unchanged.
Also, to be fair, while this skill in particular is in a very odd spot, it's really not a big deal IMO.

And regarding OP comments: the shotgun is cool in my opinion. The chainsaws are gorgeous too. What fell flat with the changes is the new Queen action. They completely forgot to make it look cool, and they also did not explain how the ability works.

I’ve argued this to death, and was hoping 6.0 would shut me up but didn’t expect such a low effort job on MCH.

I also didn’t expect all the SHB major niggles to be intact, and if they did want to fix it they’d say it on the LL, since the presentation seems to be drawing straws in terms of new stuff. Like yet another GCD which will add more fat.

Most of the mains used to be so few and proud but this reduction gain it some new mains and most of them are just way to complacent and equals part incomprehensible as seen here and in game. Sadly the theme is locked and I can predict it’ll remain the starter job for the next few expansions

Ah ''Elitism''. Forever the excuse of the mentally inept.

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Originally Posted by Mindiori

Ah ''Elitism''. Forever the excuse of the mentally inept.

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I think Shiro's case is more akin to merely ignoring contexts in favor of waving a favored banner of principle, per the situations they've more often encountered and the positions they've favored in those circumstances.

To be fair, many of us on the opposite side still do that from time to time, ignoring improvement X or Y just because it doesn't yet assure a change in design direction, etc.

Sadly, I can't say there's any such improvement in regards to MCH (just more... stuff) to give that a concrete example in this particular point of discussion, but let's not assume that a hazy value check (favoring either among mutual exclusives A or B, such as depth or accessibility, when not yet exposed to whatever details could give practical contexts for the question as to actually be pertinent and useful) indicates... ineptitude.

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Originally Posted by Garnix

Does it though?
The animation in the trailer only ran for like...3seconds. (which yes, was the same in ShB job actions trailer)
But it's quite impossible to tell if it is unchanged.
Also, to be fair, while this skill in particular is in a very odd spot, it's really not a big deal IMO.

And regarding OP comments: the shotgun is cool in my opinion. The chainsaws are gorgeous too. What fell flat with the changes is the new Queen action. They completely forgot to make it look cool, and they also did not explain how the ability works.

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I think the biggest clue we have is the uncaring display of the presentation for MCH, as if “oh yea MCH, it’s the same so not much to talk about” most of their points were to older skills so the fact that they didn’t utter a single word about any of them besides Reassemble, it’s hard to believe things have changed

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Originally Posted by Mindiori

Ah ''Elitism''. Forever the excuse of the mentally inept.

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I don’t wanna perpetuate their quota, but it almost always seems they are dead set to not improve the game, where it be from difficulty overall, dungeon design, Healer philosophy, Trials, or just in general. They are always so adamant on keeping things comfortable for them, these are often the same people that don’t do harder content due to a stigma alone not the actual content and almost always want the game to bow down to their level of accessibility due to their utter refusal to learn or adapt and the devs are all but too willing to oblige. Not everyone is like this, but these specific individuals are a fungus in the game


And machinist is their host

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Ah. Gotcha gotcha.
I didn't realize there was a term for this trick, thank you~

But what's this about it being the "lowest priority AoE?"
I didn't realize moves had priority. What do you mean by this?

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Here are the per-second values:

Bioblaster: 360p / 2.5s = 144p/s
Autocrossbow: 180p / 1.5s = 120p/s
Flamethrower: 100p/s (Flamethrower ticks 1tick/s instead of the usual 1tick/3s)
Spread Shot: 180p /2.5s = 72p/s

Heat doesn't affect AoE actions, so you only have to worry about Autocrossbow being on a minimal GCD.

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The gentleman above is right about the calculations.
Flamethrower is the lowest aoe cooldown, I forgot to mention that important information, my bad. Spreadshot is to use when nothing else is available.

One more thing if you want to try to be a math warrior:
Spreadshot generate 5 heat (around 2.5pps) and Flamethrower interrupts auto-attack, worth of ~60 potency.

If Shotgun is Spreadshot+, remains 10 heat and rise the potency to ~200+ there is a fair chance it surpass Flamethrower.
It sounds counter productive but I'm praying really hard this happens.

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

This reply carries a thick stench of elitism.

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One more button...
"Nuuuuuuh, button complex :("

I will now provide basic maths...
"Nuuuuuuh, elitisim :("

Reworking this cooldown would benefits raider and casuals alike...
"Nuuuuuuh, the raiders are bad :("

How do you survive daily life?
When running a marathon, do you ask everyone in front of you to slow down?

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

The gentleman above is right about the calculations.
Flamethrower is the lowest aoe cooldown, I forgot to mention that important information, my bad. Spreadshot is to use when nothing else is available.

One more thing if you want to try to be a math warrior:
Spreadshot generate 5 heat (around 2.5pps) and Flamethrower interrupts auto-attack, worth of ~60 potency.

If Shotgun is Spreadshot+, remains 10 heat and rise the potency to ~200+ there is a fair chance it surpass Flamethrower.
It sounds counter productive but I'm praying really hard this happens.

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I still think reassemble will be an upgrade button for 2/3 skills like sage, smn .... And we'll just have chainsaw and shotgun being super anecdotic. I really hope I'm wrong though :/

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Originally Posted by Aiscence

I still think reassemble will be an upgrade button for 2/3 skills like sage, smn .... And we'll just have chainsaw and shotgun being super anecdotic. I really hope I'm wrong though :/

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I see it being like NIN's Kassatsu or something like that. Something like : Air Anchor -> Reassemble -> Air Anchor CD resets and is changed to Chain Saw.
So instead of pressing reassemble on CD with Drill, there would be a little more planning to do.
It might become something like : Air Anchor -> Reassemble -> Chain Saw -> Reassemble -> Drill.

Edit: After rewatching: chainsaw gives at least 20 battery gauge, just like air anchor. So yeah, it is probably something like that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Here are the per-second values:

Bioblaster: 360p / 2.5s = 144p/s
Autocrossbow: 180p / 1.5s = 120p/s
Flamethrower: 100p/s (Flamethrower ticks 1tick/s instead of the usual 1tick/3s)
Spread Shot: 180p /2.5s = 72p/s


Heat doesn't affect AoE actions, so you only have to worry about Autocrossbow being on a minimal GCD.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

The gentleman above is right about the calculations.
Flamethrower is the lowest aoe cooldown, I forgot to mention that important information, my bad. Spreadshot is to use when nothing else is available.

One more thing if you want to try to be a math warrior:
Spreadshot generate 5 heat (around 2.5pps) and Flamethrower interrupts auto-attack, worth of ~60 potency.

If Shotgun is Spreadshot+, remains 10 heat and rise the potency to ~200+ there is a fair chance it surpass Flamethrower.
It sounds counter productive but I'm praying really hard this happens.

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I have been playing too many fighting games lately. My brain put a very different definition behind the word "priority" haha~
I thought you were making a comment about moves interacting with each other and confused myself.
Thanks for explaining and clearing that up for me.

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Originally Posted by Garnix

I see it being like NIN's Kassatsu or something like that. Something like : Air Anchor -> Reassemble -> Air Anchor CD resets and is changed to Chain Saw.
So instead of pressing reassemble on CD with Drill, there would be a little more planning to do.
It might become something like : Air Anchor -> Reassemble -> Chain Saw -> Reassemble -> Drill.

Edit: After rewatching: chainsaw gives at least 20 battery gauge, just like air anchor. So yeah, it is probably something like that.

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This seems like heavy wishful thinking, they very clearly stated the rest of the adjustments are just actions added and the only action they can be referring to is a shotgun and the little *not full list of adjustments* only really applies to jobs where they were brief like SCH, DNC BRD, and RDM. I’m 100% certain Chainsaw is just another Gcd, it’s a toss if it’s a Aoe but if it is than MCH is completely unchanged

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Garnix

I see it being like NIN's Kassatsu or something like that. Something like : Air Anchor -> Reassemble -> Air Anchor CD resets and is changed to Chain Saw.
So instead of pressing reassemble on CD with Drill, there would be a little more planning to do.
It might become something like : Air Anchor -> Reassemble -> Chain Saw -> Reassemble -> Drill.

Edit: After rewatching: chainsaw gives at least 20 battery gauge, just like air anchor. So yeah, it is probably something like that.

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While I would like Reassemble to have different bonuses to different skills, having it function like Kassatsu means Chainsaw has to be exceedingly weak on the upfront hit.

10 battery gauge is 230 potency currently (Probably more with the haymaker being added), so 'resetting' Air Anchor via Reassemble means it's all we'd ever use it on. While this isn't different from now, it's just a raw power boost with no real mechanical change.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

This seems like heavy wishful thinking, they very clearly stated the rest of the adjustments are just actions added and the only action they can be referring to is a shotgun and the little *not full list of adjustments* only really applies to jobs where they were brief like SCH, DNC BRD, and RDM. I’m 100% certain Chainsaw is just another Gcd, it’s a toss if it’s a Aoe but if it is than MCH is completely unchanged

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Battery gauge on an AoE sounds unlikely to me. I am convinced it is single target.
And they listed 2 things, and mentioned one other:
-> Chain Saw added
-> 2 charges on reassemble
-> new action for the queen
Even the shotgun is not listed on the presentation. And they also don't say anything about how Chain Saw works. I personally think it is unlikely to be a simple GCD.
And of course, a lot of potency and cooldowns will be adjusted.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

While I would like Reassemble to have different bonuses to different skills, having it function like Kassatsu means Chainsaw has to be exceedingly weak on the upfront hit.

10 battery gauge is 230 potency currently (Probably more with the haymaker being added), so 'resetting' Air Anchor via Reassemble means it's all we'd ever use it on. While this isn't different from now, it's just a raw power boost with no real mechanical change.

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My idea is that they could lower the potency of air anchor and put chainsaw on par with drill or a bit higher, and lower the CD on reassemble charges.
For example. Change reassemble CD to 30s (so a bit lower than anchor, but higher than drill)
So you would use one charge on chainsaw, and one on drill in your opener. Then, at times you would have a charge of Reassemble available, Drill up, but Anchor still on cooldown. But you would have to hold on your charge until Anchor gets available.
Yoshida said that MCH would need to be careful how they manage their reassemble charges. If there is nothing like that, then I don't see what "management" there is on the charges and they would just be a decent QoL change...

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Originally Posted by Garnix

Battery gauge on an AoE sounds unlikely to me. I am convinced it is single target.
And they listed 2 things, and mentioned one other:
-> Chain Saw added
-> 2 charges on reassemble
-> new action for the queen
Even the shotgun is not listed on the presentation. And they also don't say anything about how Chain Saw works. I personally think it is unlikely to be a simple GCD.
And of course, a lot of potency and cooldowns will be adjusted.
.

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You forget what MCH main draw is, if it had any unique function they would’ve gone into some detail or somthing, but chose to move on to DNC

I'm expecting Chainsaw to just be a chunky AoE GCD that's situationally worth burning Disassemble on because presently, MCH has the worst AoE of the three ranged DPS by a fairly significant margin.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I'm expecting Chainsaw to just be a chunky AoE GCD that's situationally worth burning Disassemble on because presently, MCH has the worst AoE of the three ranged DPS by a fairly significant margin.

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Queen finisher could be AoE.
Shotgun might change a lot, depending on its potency.

Wildfire remains unchange but how many asked for it to be AoE...

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Originally Posted by Jirah

You forget what MCH main draw is, if it had any unique function they would’ve gone into some detail or somthing, but chose to move on to DNC

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The main draw of current machinist? What is it aside from the aesthetic of it?
What I am mentioning is not even a really unique function, it just is a new benefit to an existing ability which they said is changed to have charges...
And why would they go in more details? They did not for most other jobs either...

PLD gets a new confiteor combo. No idea how it functions. Does it replace goring and re-apply the DoT? Did they just extend goring duration? I don't know.
WAR gets a new action in inner release. Does it load up after 3 fell cleaves. Maybe it just lights up when you press inner release. Not quite sure.
DRK get the new salted earth follow up. GCD? oGCD? What does it do? How does it work? I don't know.
DRG, "a new action after doing your combo succesfully". What does "succesfully" mean exactly?
SAM, "a new action in the vein of Iaijutsu". Again "in the vein of" doesn't say anything really.
NIN getting new ninjutsus to enhance raiton etc. How does that work? Linked to Kassatsu? So they have to change the way Kassatsu works or is it something else entirely?
BRD...they did not even mention the new ability that can be used after going through the 3 songs...(unless I misunderstood what was said)
BLM...'under certain condition you get a new ability'. Again doesn't say anything on how it functionally works.
RDM...probably the best example. Most of the changes sound straightforward and they discussed this job at length, but they somehow managed to not explain the 3 stacks added to the gauge at all. What is their purpose? Do VerHoly potency depends on the amount of charges you get now? So maybe you don't have to do the full melee combo anymore and maybe there will be some optimization possible there... Or did they make VerHoly/flare a separate button so that you don't have to cast it immediately after the melee combo and keep your charges for later? Or does it change nothing?
Healers...

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Originally Posted by Garnix

RDM...probably the best example. Most of the changes sound straightforward and they discussed this job at length, but they somehow managed to not explain the 3 stacks added to the gauge at all. What is their purpose? Do VerHoly potency depends on the amount of charges you get now? So maybe you don't have to do the full melee combo anymore and maybe there will be some optimization possible there... Or did they make VerHoly/flare a separate button so that you don't have to cast it immediately after the melee combo and keep your charges for later? Or does it change nothing?

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It's not a real gauge. It's just a combo tracker. The gauge empties if you abort your combo and it empties if you finish your combo. Don't overthink it.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

It's not a real gauge. It's just a combo tracker. The gauge empties if you abort your combo and it empties if you finish your combo. Don't overthink it.

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Yup I think it was mostly added because of the new AoE finisher, since Moulinet is not a proper combo. But still...It's just as vague as the reassemble changes.

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Originally Posted by Garnix

The main draw of current machinist? What is it aside from the aesthetic of it?
What I am mentioning is not even a really unique function, it just is a new benefit to an existing ability which they said is changed to have charges...
And why would they go in more details? They did not for most other jobs either...

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“Theirs really not much we can change with the MCH, but let’s talk about MCH anyways”

I think you need to rewatch the LL, because your getting your hopes up too much, and MCH main draw is its simple accessible nature, if MCH was as complex as SAM or tight as BLM it would not nearly be as popular. As seen by how popular simpler jobs are

Making things universally simple, has a habit of rendering reward obsolete. A laughable thing to table in a game based around long term investment. Fortunately for SE the braindeads are going to be oblivious regardless. Begging the question why you would tailor the challenge of anything, to a group who can't fathom what challenge even is to start with. No matter, the answer is 'financial greed' and 'milking easy demographics'. Say no more.

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Originally Posted by Mindiori

Making things universally simple, has a habit of rendering reward obsolete. A laughable thing to table in a game based around long term investment. Fortunately for SE the braindeads are going to be oblivious regardless. Begging the question why you would tailor the challenge of anything, to a group who can't fathom what challenge even is to start with. No matter, the answer is 'financial greed' and 'milking easy demographics'. Say no more.

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This goes deeper as it’s not just a FF14 thing, but the more casual demographic are a interesting bunch. They fear challenge and are unaware of issues due to only doing what dungeons? All the time which most don’t even require effort to pass. Even the hard trials you can easily be carried as dead weight seen personally by Shinryu, susano, ect. Yet their suggestions are equal and more dangerous as it all amounts to makes things easier or let things rot.

Back on topic, it’s easy to cater to the dim, they’ll never raise their voice and will only know the grounds of their own bubble they made, afraid of a larger forum. Look at SMN for example despite legit fears of the kit being egregiously simplified and the dot mechanic straight up got erased rather than streamlined, its all for a show not a game. People talk about visuals but not about the kit nearly enough. Visuals being the shallowest form of entertainment, you don’t engage with a visual