Sage after Live Letter Part LXVI

New jobs have tended to be pretty fun upon release the last couple of expansions. What are your expectations for Sage? Does it interest you at all? Do you think it will be better developed or more fun than its predecessors?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tinythinker

New jobs have tended to be pretty fun upon release the last couple of expansions. What are your expectations for Sage? Does it interest you at all? Do you think it will be better developed or more fun that its predecessors?

---

+ It has more DPS skills and not a 111111 rotation.
+ I heal with DPS.
+ I can mitigate damage.
+ I can dash like almost every DPS & tank next expansion.
+ I can weave between DPS skills without an issue.

That's more than enough to say it has the foundation of a very good job for players who want to heal while being engaged in gameplay when they can afford extra brainpower to do so.
Remember how Blue mage as a healer is fun because they had very few healing spells, a good set of mitigation utility, but most importantly a decent DPS rotation with primal skills? That's basically Sage right now - heavy GCD DPS centric gameplay that focuses on optimizing GCD uptime for maximium healing usage, but with a bit of mobility, more mitigation oriented playstyle, and more healing abilities.

The true combat medic players have been waiting for that doesn't feel completely dumbed down because it requires a good precision of balancing HP and DPS to make the job work well. We'll have to see how it plays out and the final design before saying anything for certain to see if it's good for Endwalker Encounter Design, but currently the skills look pretty positive to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

+ It has more DPS skills and not a 111111 rotation.

---

That might as well have been the tl;dr because I was convinced to try sage right there.

As far as I can tell (Going off of known tooltips and the trailer), SGE has:

1. Dosis (Their single target ability)

2. Eucrasia Dosis (Their DoT, which Dosis turns into after using Eucrasia, which is a one second GCD that also turns their GCD heals into shields.)

3. Discrasia (Their standard AoE)

4. Toxicon (AoE with the same initial potency as Dosis but 50% splash damage and requires spending a resource acquired from using their OGCD heals. Is also instant cast, meaning it's just going to be a mobility tool in single target situations).

5. Phlegma (Stronger instant AoE with a 45 second cooldown and two charges)

6. Pneuma (Line AoE with the same initial potency as Dosis and 50% splash damage, but has a two minute cooldown due to having both an AoE heal and lengthy damage reduction attached to it, effectively making it their equivalent of Temperance.).


Their DPS rotation doesn't seem like it's actually going to be much more involved then the conventional healers, though the Cardia buff's passive healing when using DPS skills will make going on the offensive very comfortable.

I notice a lot of the abilities* are like "self and party members around you." And since you can always focus your "passive" heals on the tank I think a big part of this job's design philosophy is a healer that never needs to break target with the enemy, which will be lovely for controller players.


*shared here if anyone hasn't seen them yet:
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...y-SGE-tooltips

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ItMe

I notice a lot of the abilities* are like "self and party members around you." And since you can always focus your "passive" heals on the tank I think a big part of this job's design philosophy is a healer that never needs to break target with the enemy, which will be lovely for controller players.


*shared here if anyone hasn't seen them yet:
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...y-SGE-tooltips

---

I mean, this is SCH's philosophy so nothing really new.

I think that it has taken this dev team several years and expansions to figure out exactly how they like they bake up their jobs and encounter design. While they continue to improve, I believe jobs like Sage and Reaper are coming out a really good time due to all the years of experience this team now has. The same can be said for job reworks such as MCH, PLD, NIN, and the upcoming SMN and MNK are now some of the best, flashy, and fun jobs to play in this game. Now I believe that SCH is the next job in line that is more than past due for the same treatment.

That said, my expectations for Sage are quite high, but this is a good thing because this dev team has set a golden standard, and it has been such a long time since we've had a new healer. I mean holy hell, they figured out how to even appeal to Gundam fans. I am going to have a lot of fun with Sage I assure you.

I will play it because of it's dps abilities alone. I'm SO DAMN SICK of 'broil spam.'

The real stress test:

OMG WHAT GLAM IS MY SAGE GOING TO USE?!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Truen

I will play it because of it's dps abilities alone. I'm SO DAMN SICK of 'broil spam.'

---

I fear it’s just going to be Dosis spam with a 45sec Icarus/Phlegma added into it. Pneuma’s purpose is a damage mitigation/AoE heal.

Really depends on how we get those Toxicon charges.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Novak_04

The real stress test:

OMG WHAT GLAM IS MY SAGE GOING TO USE?!

---

Well, you got plenty of white robes to use.

Whole damn pile of them.

"Every healer wants to be a priest, right? This is peak healer outfit design, right? Let's give them a maternity robe! I'm sure they'll love that!" ~some idiot on the ShB gear design team, probably.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Novak_04

The real stress test:

OMG WHAT GLAM IS MY SAGE GOING TO USE?!

---

Same... The Sage gear looks not impressive.

I really don't like the aesthetics of the class, I don't like the weapon choice, I don't like that it took SCH's identity, I don't like that I'm going to find it more fun than the current/new SCH and end up maining it xD. I meannn, I'll still need to wait for the media tour info to make a more educated decision, but it's certainly looking like sage is almost everything I was hoping they'd add (back?) to SCH.
They technically get a version of a fairy on it's own gcd with the whole "heal when you attack" thing. Embrace I can target, what!?
They have a melee feel with a gap closer and all.
They might have some heal vs dps decision making?
They look like they have a higher skill ceiling.
They have more DPS options.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Novak_04

The real stress test:

OMG WHAT GLAM IS MY SAGE GOING TO USE?!

---

Well for me at least, the LL prompted me to farm some pieces of the ShB PvP Healer Set.
I feel like that will fit sage much better than all the robes and stuff we have otherwise

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

As far as I can tell (Going off of known tooltips and the trailer), SGE has:

1. Dosis (Their single target ability)

2. Eucrasia Dosis (Their DoT, which Dosis turns into after using Eucrasia, which is a one second GCD that also turns their GCD heals into shields.)

3. Discrasia (Their standard AoE)

4. Toxicon (AoE with the same initial potency as Dosis but 50% splash damage and requires spending a resource acquired from using their OGCD heals. Is also instant cast, meaning it's just going to be a mobility tool in single target situations).

5. Phlegma (Stronger instant AoE with a 45 second cooldown and two charges)

6. Pneuma (Line AoE with the same initial potency as Dosis and 50% splash damage, but has a two minute cooldown due to having both an AoE heal and lengthy damage reduction attached to it, effectively making it their equivalent of Temperance.).


Their DPS rotation doesn't seem like it's actually going to be much more involved then the conventional healers, though the Cardia buff's passive healing when using DPS skills will make going on the offensive very comfortable.

---

We've also seen a 7th DPS action from Sage in the Benchmark Trailer, and it's some kind of ranged AoE. At first it seems like it could be Discrasia after using Eucrasia, but it's weird that Discrasia is point-blank while this other action is ranged. Also, regarding Toxicon, the trailer seemed to showcase the Sage gaining a stack of Adder's Sting after the tank that they shielded with their GCD barrier was attacked, not when using OGCD healing. Depending on the specifics, it could mean that proactively using your GCD barriers will be treated as DPS neutral when done correctly, thus adding more diversity in your GCD actions by stopping to heal more frequently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

We've also seen a 7th DPS action from Sage in the Benchmark Trailer, and it's some kind of ranged AoE. At first it seems like it could be Discrasia after using Eucrasia, but it's weird that Discrasia is point-blank while this other action is ranged.

---

It's the Sage version of Alphis white carbuncle. It is also what Alphi uses in the Endwalker trailer.

Yeah... certainly seems a majority of sge dps will still be the primary attack and dot like other healers, but the sprinkle of some other dps skills is nice.

I'm expecting A LOT of complain about sage doing little to no heal due to too many players that will either
A- not DPS enough (aka scholar with no fairy)
B- only DPS (aka scholar with only a fairy)

My popcorn bag is ready

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaTnIs

Same... The Sage gear looks not impressive.

---

Personally, I'm a big fan of the Doctor/Scientist aesthetic. Different strokes, though.

i find it funny that functionally sage is the healer a lot of people wanted dancer to be; heal through dps while having a dedicated partner.

i wonder if thats random chance or if the devs actually read our ideas to implement in a different way. either way big fan of the aesthetic and animations, hope this attracts new healers that would have otherwies gone dps.

It looks like SGE might have more DPS variety, only one of the abilities looks like it's on a long recast. SO this could be positive, though my fear is there could still be a lot of 1 button spams, so I hope the other techniques are frequent enough to not feel monotonous.

I like the sound of how it heals too from a gameplay perspective. It looks like it has received some of the stuff people have suggested for improving SCH and it does seem to have taken some of the tactical aspect of SCH's identity, whose identity has already been watered down, so I don't know what it means for SCH's identity, but I do see potential in enjoying SGE, so if I must take any consolation is that there might be a healer for me to enjoy come 6.0

On the other hand, there are some concerns to come out of it.

SGE is a shield healer, right? Notice how many non-shieldy heals it gets and how healing is done through DPS too and there being some oGCD heals. This doesn't feel balance for shield healing.

For the concept to work it needs to be more dependent on its shields than its pure heals. It's why SCH is not a shield healer at the moment even SE call it one, SCH rely a lot more on its oGCD heals than it does shield healing...so it's got more pure healing than shield healing focus and this was my concern because they've still called SCH a shield healer even during this time where its shields are a secondary dependency, which is comparable to my Diurnal Sect AST.

So my prediction now is that this "pure" and "shield" heal distinction is only on paper but not in practice. The main advantage I felt of this distinction was that it'd mean each healer would only need to be balanced against another healer because of this separation of design philosophies and where their strengths and weaknesses complement each other.

It's starting to feel like that maybe they should have taken a different approach into trying to make jobs feel unique and interesting. Whilst I can 100% see the potential of a pure/shield set up being a good thing, as I said in my thread months ago, it can't work unless that set up is reflected in job design and in how it's played. If pure heals are the most effective way of healing on a shield healer then it's a pure healer.

SGE thus far still looks to only be a shield healer to the same extent as SCH; its known shields coming from single target/party GCDs (Eucrasia Diagnosis/Prognosis) and single target/party OGCDs (Haima/Panhaima), though in the latter case the shield is just icing on the cake as the two skills are mostly for the gradual healing they trigger whenever you attack. SE's definition of "shield healer" thus far seems to just be "healer that has shields that are not on a cooldown" so they can consistently reduce incoming damage.

Its DPS rotation isn't likely going to be much different from the other healers either, as judging from its potencies the priority list is just going to be:

1. Apply/maintain Eucrasisa Dosis.
2. Burn Phlegma charges (Preferably while party/raid buffs/debuffs are active)
3. Use Toxicon if you're going to overflow on Serpent's Fang charges, otherwise save it for mobility.
4. Spam Dosis.

That said, I think it still sounds different enough on paper from SCH to be interesting and is definitely the WHM equivalent for shield healers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saefinn

It looks like SGE might have more DPS variety, only one of the abilities looks like it's on a long recast. SO this could be positive, though my fear is there could still be a lot of 1 button spams, so I hope the other techniques are frequent enough to not feel monotonous.

I like the sound of how it heals too from a gameplay perspective. It looks like it has received some of the stuff people have suggested for improving SCH and it does seem to have taken some of the tactical aspect of SCH's identity, whose identity has already been watered down, so I don't know what it means for SCH's identity, but I do see potential in enjoying SGE, so if I must take any consolation is that there might be a healer for me to enjoy come 6.0

On the other hand, there are some concerns to come out of it.

SGE is a shield healer, right? Notice how many non-shieldy heals it gets and how healing is done through DPS too and there being some oGCD heals. This doesn't feel balance for shield healing.

For the concept to work it needs to be more dependent on its shields than its pure heals. It's why SCH is not a shield healer at the moment even SE call it one, SCH rely a lot more on its oGCD heals than it does shield healing...so it's got more pure healing than shield healing focus and this was my concern because they've still called SCH a shield healer even during this time where its shields are a secondary dependency, which is comparable to my Diurnal Sect AST.

So my prediction now is that this "pure" and "shield" heal distinction is only on paper but not in practice. The main advantage I felt of this distinction was that it'd mean each healer would only need to be balanced against another healer because of this separation of design philosophies and where their strengths and weaknesses complement each other.

It's starting to feel like that maybe they should have taken a different approach into trying to make jobs feel unique and interesting. Whilst I can 100% see the potential of a pure/shield set up being a good thing, as I said in my thread months ago, it can't work unless that set up is reflected in job design and in how it's played. If pure heals are the most effective way of healing on a shield healer then it's a pure healer.

---

Thus far, this is my analysis of Sage's DPS. Keep in mind, we could see some potency changes, but otherwise this is what we're looking at:

Simple Stuff:
Dosis III - 330 Potency - Our control for this discussion and our spam spell. Every GCD cast will be based around this 330 Potency number.
Eucrasia - This basically swaps certain actions for other actions. We'll be using it to apply our DoT rather than having it on its own button. Not a bad idea if you ask me and a great way to lessen bloat both now and for the future. It doesn't change much in practice but I like to think of this as a pre-SB Cleric Stance-flavored La Croix. It tastes like the faintest idea of what old Cleric Stance was.
Eucrasia Dosis III - 70 Potency 30 second DoT - The only difference between this and all the other healer DoTs (besides potency) is that you have to press Eucrasia first.
Dyscrasia II - 170 Potency AoE - It's point-blank like Art of War and also is instant cast. I'm a bit disappointed because I kinda liked that each healer AoE was at least subtly different, but it really doesn't mean much, though it's clear that somehow a point-blank AoE is one of the defining features of a barrier healer. No Eucrasia form either.

Good Stuff:
Phlegma III- 510 Potency AoE with 2 charges (45 second recast) - This is really the one major advantage Sage has in gameplay that we know of. It's a blatant DPS gain and a very relaxed resource to manage your DPS with.
Pneuma - 330 Potency line AoE that has a 400 AoE heal attached and a 10% damage reduction buff (120 second recast) - Really cool ability to have. It's entirely DPS neutral which makes a lot of sense as it means you're not pressured to use it on cooldown and can instead wait for situations where it's most advantageous. Honestly, it makes so much sense to have this type of action given the way FFXIV plays that I'm shocked we haven't seen something like this ever before.

Bad Stuff: (Potentially)
Toxicon II - 330 Potency ranged AoE *Requires Adder's Sting* - One big caveat with this one is we don't know all the ways that Adder's Sting can be gained, though from the trailer, it seems it can be obtained when your GCD barriers are struck and/or are broken (most likely just Eucrasia Diagnosis aka Sage Aldo). This makes it a cool AoE attack for dungeon pulls, but I'm a little worried that it's otherwise of no significant value in single-target situations. It takes 2 GCD casts to use Toxicon II, making it a 50% DPS loss if you were to actively seek it out. In any fight where using Eucrasia Diagnosis becomes important, then it will allow for you to maintain DPS uptime during movement phases by storing Adder's Sting after those barrier moments, but as many of us know, using your GCD barriers is an incredibly rare occurrence and one that doesn't even happen in a lot of content. Sage has a lot less OGCD healing than Scholar does though, so perhaps you might be pressured to use it more frequently, and perhaps there are ways to gain Adder's Sting in other ways, but otherwise I'm a bit disappointed.

That's all we know so far. The Benchmark trailer showed multiple instances of a different ranged AoE being used by Alphinaud, but we have no idea what that is and it didn't seem to appear on the hotbar during the demonstration which is unusual. It was even prominently featured in one scene which leads me to believe that it is something we have. My initial thought was an AoE DoT but it's impossible to tell at this point.


Having said all that, the only real deviation from the norm on a consistent level seems to be Phlegma III as a sudden and unique GCD burst attack that we'll be using semi-frequently throughout the fight, and the need to press Eucrasia in order to apply our DoTs. You can use Pneuma to heal the party without dropping DPS once per 2 minutes which is nice, but it's not really a part of our DPS "rotation," and Toxicon II is seeming like a worse version of Afflatus Misery outside of AoE. Potencies can change of course, and that's at least one action that we know exists that we haven't seen, so who knows, but it doesn't look like Sage isn't stepping that much farther out of their comfort zone than it would first appear.

My Wishlist:
Honestly, I think a really easy solution that could help would be to have added:
Eucrasia Dyscrasia II - 35 Potency AoE DoT (30 seconds)
Eucrasia Toxicon II - 80 Potency AoE DoT (24 seconds)
These additions would've given us just a little bit more to work with while DPS without adding any buttons. Both would be very slight DPS gains against single enemies, and being DoTs, wouldn't add to excessive burst potential on dungeon mobs (Could even add secondary target depreciation). The fact that the DPS gains would be very slight over Dosis III means that players are also not particularly punished much for not maintaining them, thus giving the casual audience that safe out that they seem to strive to maintain. It would be a win-win situation in my eyes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Thus far, this is my analysis of Sage's DPS. Keep in mind, we could see some potency changes, but otherwise this is what we're looking at:

---

My guess is that the benchmark skill is ST and another way to spend the sting. Doesn't make sense that the only place you can spend that resource is on an AoE that isn't different from the main attack.

It does seem like Sage brings alot more to the table compared to other healers though. Ultimately everything transits to damage and that 510 potency attack blows SCH out of the water because it's a pure gain.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

. The same can be said for job reworks such as MCH, PLD, NIN, and the upcoming SMN and MNK are now some of the best, flashy, and fun jobs to play in this game.

---

Highly disagree on that, 2 of which aren’t even out yet and I’ll say SMN can win a beauty contest but this isn’t a pageant, people hate healers for doing the 1-1-1-1 and that’s why MCH is so great because that’s untimely the burst phase

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BooPoo

My guess is that the benchmark skill is ST and another way to spend the sting. Doesn't make sense that the only place you can spend that resource is on an AoE that isn't different from the main attack.

It does seem like Sage brings alot more to the table compared to other healers though. Ultimately everything transits to damage and that 510 potency attack blows SCH out of the water because it's a pure gain.

---

Regarding how we play, though, it still will be a fair amount of Dosis III spam. You only get a charge of Plegma III once per 45 seconds, which isn't super long, but not really short either.

If that action is in fact a single-target spender for Adder's Sting and is at least 660 potency, then that would definitely make for a good addition to the resource. If that's the case, then actively and proactively using Eucrasia Diagnosis becomes a regular and common part of our GCD usage. Again, it really depends on the specifics, but as long as the barrier duration is long enough, it will likely break on the main tank reliably throughout the fight, and you'd be rewarded with DPS neutrality or, dare I say it, a gain? Not to mention the healing you provide is also slowing down the rate at which healing is required otherwise, so even if it is exactly 660 potency, it could still be viewed as an indirect gain.

This is all speculative, though, so we shouldn't hold our breath quite yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Regarding how we play, though, it still will be a fair amount of Dosis III spam. You only get a charge of Plegma III once per 45 seconds, which isn't super long, but not really short either.

If that action is in fact a single-target spender for Adder's Sting and is at least 660 potency, then that would definitely make for a good addition to the resource. If that's the case, then actively and proactively using Eucrasia Diagnosis becomes a regular and common part of our GCD usage. Again, it really depends on the specifics, but as long as the barrier duration is long enough, it will likely break on the main tank reliably throughout the fight, and you'd be rewarded with DPS neutrality or, dare I say it, a gain? Not to mention the healing you provide is also slowing down the rate at which healing is required otherwise, so even if it is exactly 660 potency, it could still be viewed as an indirect gain.

This is all speculative, though, so we shouldn't hold our breath quite yet.

---

I really like that design. Looks like they are getting good at tying heal/damage resources together on healers. It's basically a slightly more complex and interesting version of blood lilies.

I am worried though since so many damage abilities outside of the normal spam would make Sage too OP. I expect other healers to have things to compete with Sage for rOutput (buffs, debuffs, bigger default WHM nuke etc.)

One thing that concerns me with Sage is how DoTs are applied since you need to use Eucrasia first. It's going to be very annoying to DoT everything as you're moving while the tank is pulling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BooPoo

I really like that design. Looks like they are getting good at tying heal/damage resources together on healers. It's basically a slightly more complex and interesting version of blood lilies.

I am worried though since so many damage abilities outside of the normal spam would make Sage too OP. I expect other healers to have things to compete with Sage for rOutput (buffs, debuffs, bigger default WHM nuke etc.)

---

Well in terms of damage output, we don't know what the potencies are for any of the other spells. For example, Broil IV could perhaps have a potency like 350, or even 380 in contrast to Sage's 330, and while I wouldn't hold my breath, it is possible that they could've restored a DPS button or two in order to keep up with Sage. We do know that they mentioned enhancing Scholar's barrier elements to some degree, likely something that contrasts against Sage's Adder Sting, and it has Chain Strategem. Meanwhile Sage appears to have no DPS utility and will need to compete with Chain Strategem through DPS uptime.

If Sage's DPS does end up outperforming Scholar, than they could always just lower potencies without needing to take away Plegma. I don't think the gameplay is going to change much or at all across the expansion's lifespan at least

The Sage looks quite fun to me and I'm very excited to play it. However, I'm concerned about the number of regens they have. A shield healer shouldn't really have 3-4 different regens, that is what WHM and AST are for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

The Sage looks quite fun to me and I'm very excited to play it. However, I'm concerned about the number of regens they have. A shield healer shouldn't really have 3-4 different regens, that is what WHM and AST are for.

---

All of their regens are on a cooldown. It's kinda like how SCH has Eos, which is a regen in and of itself, while also having Whispering Dawn. Sage has its own "Dance Partner" of sorts, Synastry of a sort, a party Synastry, and I think a Whispering Dawn equivalent? So, a focused Embrace, a shared Embrace, Embrace on everyone, and Whispering Dawn. It's essentially the same as SCH, just all tied to cooldowns while SCH has all of that on Fairy AI.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Novak_04

The real stress test:

OMG WHAT GLAM IS MY SAGE GOING TO USE?!

---

I think the Augmented Cashmere Robe of Healing is perfect for Sage. It's a jacket suitable for a scientist adventurer, it's dyable, it glows blue like the spells, you can pair it with a skirt or pants and the style matches the Nouliths we've seen.

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...em/64352600068

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reinha

I think the Augmented Cashmere Robe of Healing is perfect for Sage. It's a jacket suitable for a scientist adventurer, it's dyable, it glows blue like the spells, you can pair it with a skirt or pants and the style matches the Nouliths we've seen.

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...em/64352600068

---

Personally, I think the Omnicron/Omega stuff is gonna be fire. Augmented Shirde, Alexander, Late Allagan, and Neo Ishgard will also likely be popular choices.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reinha

I think the Augmented Cashmere Robe of Healing is perfect for Sage. It's a jacket suitable for a scientist adventurer, it's dyable, it glows blue like the spells, you can pair it with a skirt or pants and the style matches the Nouliths we've seen.

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...em/64352600068

---

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS