toxic tank end game?

so im newer to this game, came from Elder scrolls online ( one of the most toxic games ever) and im doing crystal tower, i ask who wants to MT. No one says anything so i go at it. about 30 seconds in the other two tanks start arguing and voking off me and each other wiping the group due to mob face all directions wildly. so i voke it and INSTANTLY they start calling me a shit tank (one is dead) and talking crap like no tomorrow. like really? wtf? your synced to 50, in old ass content arguing over who's a better tank. so the rest of the dungeon is more of the same and takes forever to complete. seriously wtf is the problem? why do you feel you're gaining from acting like a child in a lvl 50 dungeon where your epeen dont even matter? i love tanking, but if this how end game tanking is in this game than ive wasted my time and money. someone please tell me the end game isnt like this.

The tank meta is if someone keeps pingponging hate, turn off tank stance and enjoy coasting the rest of the dungeon. You don’t even need to discuss with the other.

I have not done anything super hard in the endgame (like Ultimate) yet but I think you just got unlucky. My few weeks in this game it seems the norm is to not talk at all. I have not seen anything like you've described when I was doing Crystal Tower so you probably just got unlucky!

That happens a lot in alliance raids. Either all three tanks want to be the big shot and they spin the boss around trying to take it from each other, or none of them want the job and the boss wanders around swatting everyone else. Which then leads to all three tanks calling each other out and the entire group getting annoyed.

Generally, if people start fighting over the boss, just let them have it. It's not worth the time arguing. Only a handful of alliance raid fights need multiple tanks anyway.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

The tank meta is if someone keeps pingponging hate, turn off tank stance and enjoy coasting the rest of the dungeon. You don’t even need to discuss with the other.

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Pretty much this, in most normal content that has more than 1 tank present.
Maybe secure a higher aggro in your party in case the main tank decides kiss the floor. Otherwise voking can quickly turn into a petty war. It's not really common, but it does happens if you get matched with interesting individuals...

Sorry to hear your experience though. If you're lucky, let their death/performance do the 'talking'. :rolleyes:

If no one's called it and all three of us have Tank stance up, I'll watch how the others go after a boss. If they cut loose, I keep my aura on and just start a basic rotation to build hate and try keep the threat meter orange/yellow. If all three of us look hesitant, I'll throw everything including the kitchen sink into my opener and run with the hate. If the boss starts ping ponging/spinning, I'll drop tank stance briefly to let them take it fully and then turn it back on and get my threat into orange/yellow again.

I also try to sit just outside cleaves as much as possible so if aggro pingpong happens, the boss is spinning maybe 45-60 degrees so it doesn't wreck positionals too badly.

It's very rare for anything like this to happen. Instead of asking to main tank, I just turn on tank stance and pull the boss. If they take aggro from me then I just let them tank.

I never use provoke because that's fighting over aggro and is just going to annoy everyone. Just fight the boss and accept that whoever has the better gear or better rotation execution gets to hold the boss.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

The tank meta is if someone keeps pingponging hate, turn off tank stance and enjoy coasting the rest of the dungeon. You don’t even need to discuss with the other.

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Ahahaha, I agree with this. If another tank is provoking away from me, then I just let them have it and whatever *shrug*, less responsibility for me, lol.

The more you play, the more chance you'll see all kinds of behaviors, but somehow, things will eventually work itself out most of the time regardless, so don't be discouraged by bad experiences.

By the way... (at time of posting)

Primal:

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Originally Posted by SecretIsland

My few weeks in this game it seems the norm is to not talk at all. I have not seen anything like you've described when I was doing Crystal Tower so you probably just got unlucky!

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Aether:

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

That happens a lot in alliance raids.

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Crystal:

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

It's very rare for anything like this to happen.

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:p:cool:

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Originally Posted by Nokk

if this how end game tanking is in this game than ive wasted my time and money. someone please tell me the end game isnt like this.

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In a dungeon(outside of Prae and Castrum, which you can treat like a raid if you ever run them again), you will always be the only tank so you have nothing to worry about. In a trial or raid you can let the other guy in your group have hate if he wants it so bad. You can keep your stance on(so aggro will go to you if he dies), and just shirk the other guy a time or two. On the super-rare occasion that you get paired with a tank who insists on being MT and is also an idiot, you can wait for him to die and take over(or take over after a wipe if it comes to that) or you can just do the job better and not let him have aggro. An alliance raid is the trickiest, as these are the "hardest normal content" in the game and the other tanks arent directly in your party to make hate interactions easier. This can be treated like a regular raid(let the other guy have it, be ready to take over) though, and will often be fine. Many later alliance fights will have at least some bosses that are immune to tank BS(they cant be spun, they tank all 3 of you at once, etc), so enjoy those.

Of course, if you do any actual hard content this is basically a non-issue. In a savage group tanks are expected to determine who will take which task(determined either by skill, gear, or class), swaps are often required for mechanics, and someone who sucks and/or just wants to cause drama will usually be removed and replaced with someone better suited for the task(should the group decide to side with the problem, removing yourself to find a better group is the solution).

Trying to think of which alliance raid fights actually need multiple tanks (leaving out if, y'know, the MT dies, because that's largely unpredictable). Correct me if I'm missing something...

Labyrinth of the Ancients:
-Bone Dragon is designed for multiple tanks, one to tank the Dragon, and others to pull the skeletons away, so that the party will have more time to burn them down when they start to leash back to the Dragon. However, gear creep has made this largely irrelevant.
-The Atomos room splits the three parties, and each party is intended to need their own tank to handle the adds. But, again, gear creep means they melt anyway.
-Thanatos, due to only being vulnerable to one party at a time, requires the next party's tank to take over if the previous party's buff runs out.
-The three gargoyles before King Behemoth need to be kept apart.
-The iron giant adds on King Behemoth and Phlegethon are supposed to require a tank, but again, gear creep.

Syrcus Tower:
-The adds on Amon may need to be tanked, but once more, gear creep means they usually die fast enough to not matter.

World of Darkness:
-The Atomos split the party again. Tanks mainly need to watch out for the adds.
-Cerberus needs one tank on the boss and one tank on the adds during the belly phase. May need the third tank in the belly as well, depending on how quickly the swallowed party can take them out.

Void Ark:
-When the final boss splits into three, they need to be split up.

Weeping City of Mhach:
-Ozma requires all three tanks for soaking tankbusters and holding adds, and for the Ozmashade phase when the parties are separated.

Dun Scaith:
-Scathach requires a second tank to pick up the Conla add, otherwise it tethers to the boss and explodes, usually causing a wipe.
-Diabolos only requires a second tank if the group going into the Deathgates fails and the add spawns on the raid. This really should not happen, but I've seen it.

Rabanastre:
-The add phase on Hashmal requires all three tanks to pick up their own sand golems, although these days he usually goes down before he gets to that mechanic.
-Rofocale requires all three tanks during his add phase while each party has to take their own add down.

Ridorana Lighthouse:
-I can't remember any need for multiple tanks here. Feel free to correct me.

Orbonne Monastery:
-Like Ozma, The Thunder God requires all three tanks for soaking hits, and for keeping the adds separated.

Copied Factory:
-The second boss, again, requires three tanks for soaking hits.
-Engels and the Walking Fortress both have more add phases that need to be split up.

Puppets' Bunker:
-The first boss, once again, requires three tanks for soaking and add management.
-The trash right after the first boss, while not technically requiring multiple tanks, is a lot easier if each tank focuses on one of the big mobs to interrupt their AoE paralysis attack.
-The second boss is three bosses, each needing their own tank.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Trying to think of which alliance raid fights actually need multiple tanks (leaving out if, y'know, the MT dies, because that's largely unpredictable). Correct me if I'm missing something...

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LoTA - Thanatos - No other tank actually needs to take over, assuming the original tank generated so much enmity that they never lose hate. They just won't be able to damage it, but back in the day, you could achieve this with Flash, since it bypassed damage immunity.

WoD - Cerberus - Another tank is useful for the flytrap adds that spawn in slabbers while people are in the belly. A tank is SUPPOSED to be useful for tanking the adds inside of the belly, but honestly, it's better for all DPS to enter the belly, instead of having a single party enter, such that all of the stomach lumps die before adds are ever an issue. People have forgotten this is the more effective strategy and have defaulted to ABC through content reuse fatigue.

Rabanastre - There are only two golems for Hashmal, and they only need to be killed before they grow three times. The MT can pick them up, they mainly stop to cast raid wides anyway, which is what causes the wipe if they aren't both killed prior to full growth.

Ridorana Lighthouse - The trash after Belial is usually quite unhealthy for DPS, even i400, so you'll want each tank to take a grouping.
Yiazmat's Archdemon Adds - They need to be kept separate, and parties need to stay separate for the stack buster that comes from each. With gear and a Healer with all their GCDs and really on point DPS, a group may deal with their own without a tank, but it's not recommended.

Orbonne Monastery - Agrias - When her adds spawn, each need to be held, but beyond that it's the fact that when she throws one party into the Split Punch room, if that party contains the MT, another tank needs to pick her up.

Copied Factory - 9S has an add phase that needs to be kept apart too.

Puppets' Bunker - Third boss needs a co-tank for the buster laser. Preferably one that doesn't point it at people, though people need to stay away from tanks.

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Originally Posted by Nokk

so im newer to this game, came from Elder scrolls online ( one of the most toxic games ever) and im doing crystal tower, i ask who wants to MT. No one says anything so i go at it. about 30 seconds in the other two tanks start arguing and voking off me and each other wiping the group due to mob face all directions wildly. so i voke it and INSTANTLY they start calling me a shit tank (one is dead) and talking crap like no tomorrow. like really? wtf? your synced to 50, in old ass content arguing over who's a better tank. so the rest of the dungeon is more of the same and takes forever to complete. seriously wtf is the problem? why do you feel you're gaining from acting like a child in a lvl 50 dungeon where your epeen dont even matter? i love tanking, but if this how end game tanking is in this game than ive wasted my time and money. someone please tell me the end game isnt like this.

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DF will be DF but in high-end duties this doesn't happen.

This happens often in ARR/HW alliances and even more often in MSQ roulette.
It's super annoying. And it's why I don't even bother turning on my stance if I queue for those as a tank and is one of the many reasons I absolutely hate doing MSQ roulette at all.

In a situation like this turn off your rank stance and just let them do it. It's not worth the fighting over. This is really only a problem in Alliance Raids, usually 8 mans the tanks sort it out or the OT has to do important stuff anyway, so please don't let this experience deterr you from the rest of the game.

Let's not assume the OP is in the clear either.

You know you've seen how newer tanks aren't good at generating aggro, either face pulling, or actually using voke to pull a boss and yet doesn't 1-2-3 combo correctly and bam, they start to lose it to another tank that did it right. Doesn't even require tank stance on for that matter. Happens all the time, basically weak pull = less aggro.

Just being so far behind in aggro means the boss will turn, which they think it's a voke when it's not. It's like the troll vokers who lose the boss in a few gcds because they aren't doing it right.

Speaking to my experience tanking on Aether... yeah. I've never before seen so many people eager or even insistent on being the main tank, even on content they're clearing and don't know the mechanics. At this point, I don't bother making an issue of it. If they want to be main tank, it's not worth it to force them to off tank. Just take off your stance and let them have it. It's worse for the entire raid if the two are having a pissing contest to see who's going to be tanking.

And if you're the one going through content for the first time, you're better off sitting back, watching, and learning rather than trying to lead a fight if you have the chance.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

-The three gargoyles before King Behemoth need to be kept apart.

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So, I was once in an instance where some people argued that you don't need to keep them apart. I was a DPS in that instance and so I didn't care one way or the other, but that generated quite a fight in alliance chat all the way until the end.

I've also heard that Bone Dragon can be tanked in the center.

Either way, I think most people are just used to doing things a certain way as propagated through time, like A-B-C for Cerberus.

I'm leveling my first tank to try it out, and my experience in alliance raids is that I'll turn on tank stance and simply turn it back off and move on with my life if another tank also activates tank stance.

While I've occasionally seen ping-pong drama while queuing as DPS, I've never actually participated in it as a tank.

report them

On one hand the path of least resistance is to just turn off tank stance and settle for being an off tank for the duration of the duty. On the other hand, it's frustrating for aspiring and rusty tanks to enter a duty with the hope of getting some practice in only to be denied the opportunity even if they speak up and ask to be able to take charge.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

ask to be able to take charge.

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You don't ask to be able to take charge. You take charge, hence the phrase.

I don't tank often, so I'm unfamiliar with tank etiquette in certain situations. I remember there was a time I guess I was that toxic tank, without the intention of causing problems. I noticed the main tank had some vulnerability stacks on him. I thought, "Let me take that aggro so you don't die, buddy," and I provoked it off him. I died. I didn't feel stupid at all, I actually felt like I saved the main tank from a gruesome death. At the same time, I later thought about it and realized it was probably unnecessary. So if I steal aggro, I'm not doing it to be a jerk. Half the time I don't even know what I'm doing.

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Originally Posted by linayar

You don't ask to be able to take charge. You take charge, hence the phrase.

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And then the other tank(s) keep fighting for control, and the boss spins around, probably cleaving people and certainly irritating melee DPS trying to hit positionals.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

And then the other tank(s) keep fighting for control, and the boss spins around, probably cleaving people and certainly irritating melee DPS trying to hit positionals.

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Reasonable people wouldn't when they see another tank has aggro. Unreasonable people would regardless.

That was my point. "Just take charge" is poor advice in a cooperative group game.

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

I'm leveling my first tank to try it out, and my experience in alliance raids is that I'll turn on tank stance and simply turn it back off and move on with my life if another tank also activates tank stance.

While I've occasionally seen ping-pong drama while queuing as DPS, I've never actually participated in it as a tank.

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Same here.

It's pretty common for me to ultimately just turn off tank stance and almost act as blue DPS for most of the run in the alliance raids I most get from roulette.. usually Syrcus Tower. On rare occasions I'll see nobody stepping up and main tank the entire raid. I've only seen pissing contests in alliance raids maybe in total five times since I started playing 8 or so months ago.. and when they happen I just bow out.. not worth it.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

That was my point. "Just take charge" is poor advice in a cooperative group game.

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I don't know, that's what happens normally. A tank pulls and off you go.

I answered the entire thread in the first reply and somehow it’s about leadership three pages in.

Heck, the best part about tanking and leadership is when you get to be lazy.

Aim to be as lazy as possible.

Words of inspiration provided by me; take them with you and do great things.

Alliance 'B' is usually the main tank.. easy done.

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Originally Posted by linayar

I've also heard that Bone Dragon can be tanked in the center.

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Bone Dragon is always tanked in the centre on my DC.

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Originally Posted by Fable_Frost

Alliance 'B' is usually the main tank.. easy done.

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That's how it's done here on Elemental, yes. Apparently the US servers just all fight over it instead.

I dunno, aggro wars are really one of the few interesting parts of CT raids considering how pruned down tank kits are at level 50.

If you don't want to fight for aggro you could simply turn off stance and let them have it

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Originally Posted by Theodric

On the other hand, it's frustrating for aspiring and rusty tanks to enter a duty with the hope of getting some practice in only to be denied the opportunity even if they speak up and ask to be able to take charge.

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No one is getting denied opportunities. If they want aggro they can pull first and do more damage.