Enrage Timers to Delubrium Reginae ty

Could we get enrage timers on the bosses or something?!?

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

Could we get enrage timers on the bosses or something?!?

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For what??

99% chance it will not stop people from refusing to use any essences, or even pay attention to mechanics/party comp(had tanks trying to be MT while we had 0 healers...on final boss...while other parties did have healers)

Ha! That's one thing that'll never happen in this game! People here love to respect content if you know what I mean!

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Originally Posted by Doozer

For what??

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A valid reason to leave, when it takes too long, 1 and 2/3 LB3 for these bosses is way to long, even without essenses... so yes an enrage timer for the reason that people would put in some kind of effort to do this, it is a motivation bar to do something, also the mechanics is not that difficult and even with deaths here and there it wont be too much of a problem.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

For what??

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Usually to prevent attrition wins and or 'hope' to improve gameplay / kill the group if the gameplay quality isn't up to snuff.


Like you could probably imagine certain fights, or perhaps moments in games, where you you could last and last and last and slowly chip at the boss health. Took you 2 hours but you killed it!! Enrage prevents 2 hour fights, and just sort of determines 'your group isn't good enough, try again'.


It's good in some ways, like if you're designing a fight you of course want different phases and concepts but you don't want (generally) that hardest most challenging do not pass go mechanic to be the last one that causes people to go from 30 minutes of fun to 35 minutes of my time wasted because my group couldn't handle the mechanic. Say like in blue mage where you needed a skill but you didn't know until the last bit and then it dawned on you that you wasted your time trying because you couldn't have possibly done the event. Although I'm speaking in general about designs of fights, not just enrage (enrage is one of the tools you can use for stuff like that).


Enrage can be helpful in fight design, kind of depends on what your goal is of course if it was good to use.

If there is an enrage, most people won't ever clear it. In my clear of it, each and every boss took 30 minutes (even sub-bosses). :(

Enrage has a place in Savage, which it does have if I remember correctly, so why put it in the regular version? People have to clear it for their relics too, it has be accessible. If you want a challenge to feel like you're "good enough", do the Savage version.

And you'd be surprised how an increased challenge won't actually make people better, it'll just make it more frustrating for people who are competent enough to do it but are being held back by slackers. Aren't people complaining that others are just AFKing in it? And you want an enrage timer during that?

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

If there is an enrage, most people won't ever clear it. In my clear of it, each and every boss took 30 minutes (even sub-bosses). :(

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Considering the instance timer won't allow for that to be a possibility it appears you are stretching the truth friend.

It takes 255 Delubrum runs to get all relics in the game; in the long run, making it quite an expensive endeavor, so with this in mind, I am going to give a flat no.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

Considering the instance timer won't allow for that to be a possibility it appears you are stretching the truth friend.

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Timer is 180 mins, there are 5 bosses.

Most of my runs have left roughly 120 minutes on the timer.

https://media.giphy.com/media/11tVh1XRNAunYI/giphy.gif

I'd rather spend an hour, maybe 2, killing the bosses slow and clearing than spending the same amount of time wiping and losing mettle.

An enrage for normal feels a bit like overkill, I think the 3-hit doom mechanic does enough to discourage people from the "just bring platebearer" strategy (and hopefully they opt for DPS boosts instead). Enrage timers might make the fights faster but I feel like they're gonna make the queues quite a bit longer.

If your goal is to encourage for Lost Action/Essence use, buffing the fragment drops would be a far more effective method. Putting enrages won't make people use them any more than it'll encourage bad players in normal to be better. Half of them probably think their damage is good enough already. Regardless, the value to commitment cost simply isn't there. People farming their relic who otherwise have zero interest in Bozja aren't going to want to spend time farming clusters or throw away gil. They just want to get in and out even if it takes an hour each time.

Yea, sure, great idea. And how do you force people to use essences they don't have/ can't easily farm? I ran out of Deep and normal Essences of the Aetherweaver way before my 15th run.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Enrage has a place in Savage, which it does have if I remember correctly, so why put it in the regular version?

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Delubrum Savage even has enrage on trash fights. (Side note: Savage also has trash fights between things in the first place.)

Delubrum normal actually has at least one enrage mechanic, with the Queen's Guard; the four robots begin casting a raidwide (veeeery slooowly), and if you do not destroy the four aetherial shields before those casts finish, you can apparently wipe to those raidwides. So the devs clearly aren't entirely opposed to it. But I'm inclined to agree with some posters that throwing enrages on all the fights would be overkill; I think in normal stuff it's worth saving enrage for dramatic mechanics that make narrative sense (like the four Queen's Guard resorting, in desperation, to their final ultimate attack to try to turn back the intruders, then—when that fails—falling back to defend the Queen).

Normal mode is the story mode, after all; if you have an enrage, make the enrage fit the story.

But I have seen the bosses die quickly enough in the average Delubrum run that we already aren't seeing every mechanic variation as it is, so I'm not sure enrages are really necessary. And this is with largely random PUG runs, albeit often with 5-7 of my party being people from my FC in a pre-made.

(But I grant the experience may vary from datacenter to datacenter, or that queuing with 4-6 other folks from my FC out of the 24 people in there might skew my dataset.)

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Originally Posted by Novae

Yea, sure, great idea. And how do you force people to use essences they don't have/ can't easily farm? I ran out of Deep and normal Essences of the Aetherweaver way before my 15th run.

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I understand the "x99 Potions" effect, as people refer to it—the "I can't use a potion now, what if I really need it later?!" effect when you have a finite resource—as it applies to Bozja and Delubrum, and how it keeps people from using essences. I admit, I have sometimes based what I'm playing in Delubrum normal by "what relevant essence do I have the most of, and thus can most readily afford to use" rather than actual role considerations. And the fact that I'm down to 9 Pure Essence of the Divine makes me reaaaaally nervous for Delubrum savage come Sunday. (Since in Savage, a wipe means the instance ends and you have to queue back in—thus you have to put any essences back up after each wipe.)

However, the forgotten fragments are actually not that pricy on the marketboard, at least in my datacenter; I've taken to selling stacks of the ones I know I don't need, and then using the money from those sales to turn around and buy the fragments that give me things I know I do need. So there are ways to get the ones you most need besides just Bozja-grinding for them.

(The fragments for Deep Essences and Pure Essences are, I grant, a bit pricier than the ones for normal Essences. But normal essences should be fine for Delubrum normal.)

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

I understand the "x99 Potions" effect, as people refer to it—the "I can't use a potion now, what if I really need it later?!" effect when you have a finite resource—as it applies to Bozja and Delubrum, and how it keeps people from using essences. I admit, I have sometimes based what I'm playing in Delubrum normal by "what relevant essence do I have the most of, and thus can most readily afford to use" rather than actual role considerations. And the fact that I'm down to 9 Pure Essence of the Divine makes me reaaaaally nervous for Delubrum savage come Sunday.

However, the forgotten fragments are actually not that pricy on the marketboard, at least in my datacenter; I've taken to selling stacks of the ones I know I don't need, and then using the money from those sales to turn around and buy the fragments that give me things I know I do need. So there are ways to get the ones you most need besides just Bozja-grinding for them.

(The fragments for Deep Essences and Pure Essences are, I grant, a bit pricier than the ones for normal Essences. But normal essences should be fine for Delubrum normal.)

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I know I said it before but I still think the consumable nature significantly impacts those who aren't predisposed for it, and therefore impacts the content as a whole, like not used to using potions and food for your savage / ultimate groups, to the point that simply making the actions of Eureka content either learn-able or restore-able (not simply 'repurchase-able' or 'go out and farm for a while') would improve the quality of runs for the whole content. If it was a slot that extended cooldown but made it infinite charge, or if it was DND wizard mechanics / Estus flask Dark Souls, or if it was a learning mechanic like FFIX or FFVII. Consumables are well and fine for people who are into that (and obviously is the best way to the heart of an economy wheel), but and I know you already get this too, I think the different audiences see that concept entirely differently lol. (As I've seen you talk about different types of players coming to the same content and how they're feuding over relic's place or what have you).


I'm definitely one of those who if it's consumable I will probably not use it. Potion, hi-potion, firework, etc (as long as it's not key to my survival, you best bet I'll throw a phoenix down onto a zombie boss but that's extreme gain to small loss lol). When Diablo 3 first added bottomless potions I was on that farm lol. I love the trinkets and such in WoW for the fact they don't expire on use. Or like if Witcher potions were one and done forever I'd never use them but because they were easily restore-able I'd spend loads of time going to go learn all the recipes (sort of a spell learning mechanic + estus mechanic), and I loved to use them. Conversely Planescape Numenera was all into these one and done charged artifact ideas and it just made me not want to use them because I didn't really want to lose the item. Now sometimes it just is best it does expire and not clog up inventory, there is totally a place for them, but... I'm not sold that skills is the right place for it given the wide variety of players joining into Eureka. Ultimate, sure yeah- go for it.


Or looking at it another way, how often do people save the LB till the last possible second even not using it in places where clearly you'd gain the bar back before the next boss (because they didn't know most likely, you type it in chat and some DD will be like "o rlly?" and use it asap, usually) lol.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

If there is an enrage, most people won't ever clear it. In my clear of it, each and every boss took 30 minutes (even sub-bosses). :(

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All can and will clear with this setup there is in this Relic Raid, it is not like being asked for super tight enrage mode, but a mode, so people can't just goof off, not do any damage at all and such kind of stuff, manyof the quick runs usually got multiple deaths as well, and there is good room for a carry as well, for someone who is not to good at it all as well for sure there is, but thing is alot refuse to use the resources around them to make it better and faster, and even with Castrum in Bozja being available for easier clears + rewards, and loads of just purple skills for use as well, use them... saving them wont help anything anyway.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I know I said it before but I still think the consumable nature impacts those who aren't predisposed for it (like not used to using potions and food for your savage / ultimate groups) to the point that simply making the actions of Eureka content either learn-able or restore-able would improve the quality of runs for the whole content. If it was a slot that extended cooldown but made it infinite charge, or if it was DND wizard mechanics / Estus flask Dark Souls, or if it was a learning mechanic like FFIX or FFVII. Consumables are well and fine for people who are into that (and obviously is the best way to the heart of an economy wheel), but and I know you already get this too, I think the different audiences see that concept entirely differently lol. (As I've seen you talk about different types of players coming to the same content and how they're feuding over relic's place or what have you).

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Oh, definitely. And I agree that for the normal mode stuff, asking people to use essences they may be low on is a bit unfortunate. It's not a showstopper since you can buy the items rather than having to farm them endlessly, but it still presents an obstacle to people really embracing the content; after all, where savage raiders are well-used to spending money (or for crafters, time) to obtain consumables for savage, the average player is decidedly not.

However, I think there's an easy method to handle it: just make essences last across instances.

The lost holster and what you have slotted are already persistent, obviously. Just record your last used essence, and if that essence would still be valid for what you're playing when you queue in, reapply it. Then your Deep Essence of the Aetherweaver you popped in the Southern Front while being a healer is still active when you go into Delubrum as a healer. Similarly, you can persist things like reraisers and Medkits and whatnot from session to session.

That, I think, would take a lot of the sting out of it for people. And Delubrum savage can still be a special case which clears all persistent status effects (like essences and reraisers) when you queue in, so that a wipe really costs like it does now, and presents a limiting factor on progression in there.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

If your goal is to encourage for Lost Action/Essence use, buffing the fragment drops would be a far more effective method. Putting enrages won't make people use them any more than it'll encourage bad players in normal to be better. Half of them probably think their damage is good enough already. Regardless, the value to commitment cost simply isn't there. People farming their relic who otherwise have zero interest in Bozja aren't going to want to spend time farming clusters or throw away gil. They just want to get in and out even if it takes an hour each time.

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I would say that fragments for at least basic essences and skills actually drop at a pretty frequent rate - if you're specifically after those items and doing what it takes to get them. There are routes for awakening fragments an 8 person group can use to get hundreds in a lockout. Anything that can be farmed with reflect is naturally going to be simple to get once a player owns exactly 1 lost reflect, with added efficiency for a levelled tank class and 1 essence of the irregular. Clusters themselves are also efficient and valuable as a group farm target.

The thing is, I think players firstly don't approach bozja as something where it's valuable to fight non-skirmish enemies, probably out of habit for the eureka NM train. And secondarily, players seem to approach item farming from the perspective of different MMOs that split drops, and incentivize not grouping to encourage viewing anyone farming the same item as you as competition. In this game, the larger your group is the better - you can get items from the other side of the map just because your group has credit, even if it's not a mob you personally touched - and this doesn't affect your other party member's drop rates. So generally speaking if you make the largest group possible and just fight everything, you'll be basically swimming in fragments. But it's like there's a block people can't get over to actually group up and do that - like people's prior MMO experience makes them think it shouldn't work which prevents them from doing it when it does work, or something.

Or people are trying to rank up and all that and "farm everything non-skirmish" is naturally not gonna give mettle, so there's that as a consideration.

Prior to BSF hotfixes, a lot pugs can’t even handle the SIMPLE dps check in CLL against Brionac & Lyon. I’m not convinced dps check in DR would be any significant change... besides adding more frustration, both to the lazy & committing raid member than it is worthy for.

Either they improve the forgotten fragments drop frequency (to soothe the x99 Elixir syndrome) or probably add a system where each player have their own ‘grade performance’ to qualify certain level of personal loot from each chest. So that people are encouraged to perform better, be it from using essence, respecting mechanic, or whatever. Maybe extra timeworn artifact? :rolleyes: it’s up to discussions.

I think the issue is that most players focus almost entirely on doing skirmishes/CEs, which means they're only going to be getting drip-fed fragments from completion rewards.

Fragments of awakening/compassion are the roughest to get out of the ones available on the southern front as you're forced to kill rank IV/V in their respective areas if you want guaranteed drops and only two per mob at best. The other types can farmed enmass from star mobs or sprites.

If you actually try to get them, most of the important ones can be farmed it quite quickly. The basic essences in particular drop in lots of 2-3 from soloable rank III mobs on the bottom so there isn't much of an excuse for not having anything equipped.

I do think they could at least expand the number of fragments available from the vendor for clusters, though.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

Could we get enrage timers on the bosses or something?!?

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Go do some Savage and let the casuals have their fun, it's obviously not content for you.

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Originally Posted by Naoki34

Go do some Savage and let the casuals have their fun, it's obviously not content for you.

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It is the content for casuals as well, some people semi afk through the entire place, if not an enragement timer, then reward classification for the time, if going to slow and easy, 1 relic item, for the entire amount of people, if you hit it within the decent to good trime you will get 3, that is better than enrage and certainly a motivation and allows for some carry as well, and give the ability to boot people from the Raid, if they more or less on purpose is holding back, it is every time when SE makes systems, where you can't do things about obnoxius players and destructive/obstructive characters that we run into them.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7a/6d...5ef0665b45.gif

There is an enrage in DR though. Warrior boss has that slow charge that makes sure everyone isn't sleeping.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

A valid reason to leave, when it takes too long, 1 and 2/3 LB3 for these bosses is way to long, even without essenses... so yes an enrage timer for the reason that people would put in some kind of effort to do this, it is a motivation bar to do something, also the mechanics is not that difficult and even with deaths here and there it wont be too much of a problem.

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All that shows is that the bosses are nothing more than HP sponges who need their HP lowered.

It shouldn't take 15-20 minutes to kill a boss on a normal raid.

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Originally Posted by TurtlesAWD

An enrage for normal feels a bit like overkill, I think the 3-hit doom mechanic does enough to discourage people from the "just bring platebearer" strategy (and hopefully they opt for DPS boosts instead). Enrage timers might make the fights faster but I feel like they're gonna make the queues quite a bit longer.

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My issue with this is there isn't a basic DPS boosting lost action that is easily farmable (unless I'm missing one). Tanks get a 60% easy boost, Healers get 80% easy boost, DPS get. . . survivability?

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

All that shows is that the bosses are nothing more than HP sponges who need their HP lowered.

It shouldn't take 15-20 minutes to kill a boss on a normal raid.

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It only takes that long if almost nobody is using damage-boosting essences and people are dying left and right.

They actually die noticeably faster then typical raid bosses if everyone is taking full advantage of everything the instance has to offer, but as the topic has been repeatedly mentioning they...don't.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

If your goal is to encourage for Lost Action/Essence use, buffing the fragment drops would be a far more effective method.

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I think if they would add them to be purchased with gold/silver coins it would be even better. I'm sitting on like 300 silver coins and I don't care about the armor which makes them completely useless to me. Also I don't just mean the ones that drop in DR but like the stuff that gives skimisher, aetherweave, etc..

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Either they improve the forgotten fragments drop frequency (to soothe the x99 Elixir syndrome) or probably add a system where each player have their own ‘grade performance’ to qualify certain level of personal loot from each chest. So that people are encouraged to perform better, be it from using essence, respecting mechanic, or whatever. Maybe extra timeworn artifact? :rolleyes: it’s up to discussions.

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This is my favorite suggestion personally. Doesn't have to be anything particularly high and you could still get regular rewards even for dying a lot on your first run, but I'd like to see a system that rewards good performance rather than it always being about punishing players for mistakes. Too often things like lost mettle, slower runs or ideas like enrage wipes just end up punishing those who put in effort too. Also it's not always that players don't care about performance, but there's nothing that really tells them if they're doing well or not and nothing visible to gain from pushing further. Tanks/healers in particular tend to have no idea of how much they can potentially contribute so assume they're doing ok and play in the same way. No one died, the raid was clear, job done.

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Originally Posted by TurtlesAWD

I think the 3-hit doom mechanic does enough to discourage people from the "just bring platebearer" strategy (and hopefully they opt for DPS boosts instead).

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I wish, sadly I see platebearers and other defensive essences all the time on people who are clearly fully experienced in all the strats. Healers in particular either use no Essence or increased MP.

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Originally Posted by TurtlesAWD

I would say that fragments for at least basic essences and skills actually drop at a pretty frequent rate - if you're specifically after those items and doing what it takes to get them.

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They aren't hard too farm for those of us who know what to do. There are other easy methods too, like Coffee Biscuit leves and buying them or Cluster farm for the Pure Essence. The issue is that similar to how players don't seem to understand that platebearer is worthless in DR, they also don't seem to understand how to efficiently farm fragments and simply don't bother.

I think bumping the fragment droprate significantly in Castrum and DR and allowing us to trade coins for fragments is the best solution. If running DR increases your supply rather than decreases it, there's far less excuse.

You can get similar effective results by making the fragments more common or lowering the boss HP by 10%.

If you make them Enrage fewer people will do it. A lot of people think it's already very hard content because to a casual player it seems very punishing.

Completed an undermanned DR with 18 people and 0 tanks, in quite the favour of a very good time of doing it, it show for those 6 who left, that missed out on an actual good group of DPS... don't it that it is too harsh, and would like increased drops so the remaining people 'share' the drops of those whom left due to a little resistance.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

It only takes that long if almost nobody is using damage-boosting essences and people are dying left and right.

They actually die noticeably faster then typical raid bosses if everyone is taking full advantage of everything the instance has to offer, but as the topic has been repeatedly mentioning they...don't.

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People would be much more likely to use those systems if they weren't limited use. Gamers in general have been doing this for decades.

"I'll save that massive buff potion for when I REALLY need it. Welp, I beat the content, guess I didn't really need it"