People who like Bozja/Eureka, I would like your input

As the title says, I’d like the help of people who enjoy Bozja or even Eureka in helping me understand what exactly it is they like. Cause from what I’ve heard it’s mostly Logorams/Lost Actions and the Critical Engagements that people enjoy and was wondering if Square could manage to put that into the overworld, the normal zones we progress through during MSQ, if you guys would still enjoy it?

A simple mockup of an idea I had, and I’ll use 5.0 zones for reference, would be that each one has about 3 Critical Engagements in them. The Tempest, being the last zone, would have something BIG in it like the Castrum CE that you need to progress the Bozja story. Now in order to join these Overworld Critical Engagements, you’d need to farm bicolor gems. Using those gems you purchase an item, maybe each zone (Lakeland/The Tempest/Il Mheg/etc) each has its own item, and when you use that item you are granted a Buff. That Buff would work one of two ways, you either need it to damage the monsters in the CE, while not used in FATEs, is something Square has coded before. The other way it could work is that you need the Buff active by the end of the CE in order to gain any rewards, much like how Twist of Fate grants you bonus EXP if you complete a FATE with it.

What you do in the Critical Engagements I’d imagine would be much like what is already in Bozja, just fitted for the area it is in. I’d go with them all being made for Lv80 though so it’s something you see at the start of the expansion and go “wow, that looks cool” and work towards it. To keep you from just steaming through it by X.2 patch though, it has an item level sync to it, maybe not as tight as Unreal, but something that keeps them biting throughout the expansion.

Now, rewards, obviously since they’re max level content, they need to reward tomestones. I would add 2 more rewards though, a simple “tricolor gem” for a guaranteed reward that can be used just like bicolor gems to buy certain things, each zone having its own set of rewards. For the other, please don’t shoot me, the Bozja/Eureka style lockboxes. In order to keep people doing these and not having them die after everyone gets their tricolor gem rewards, there needs to be some RNG loot. Could also make it that each zone drops its own lockbox so have lots of them to farm but that might be a bit much.

Spawning these CEs though, other than doing FATEs and killing overworld mobs to get them to spawn, maybe take a page out of the book on how S Rank hunts are done? Each CE has a set timer, say 5 hours or so, but if people are trying to actively spawn them, that time can get cut down to 2.5 hours or so. This way they aren’t reliant on people to spawn them, but you can help make them appear faster.

Lost Actions are a bit harder, I can think of two ways to do it at the moment. One, they are just the expansion feature and you can use them in the overworld always. I actually wouldn’t mind this, the idea of them is a fun one and overworld content can use some fun stuff in it, but not sure how badly this would influence Hunts. The other way would be that once you’ve entered the CE and clicked the Sync button, you get the Duty Action button and can use that for Lost Actions. Farming them would be via mob and FATE farming, maybe toss some in for Gatherers to get and sell on the Market Board. Could also buy them with bi/tricolor gems so you have something to buy repeatedly with the currency.

I write all of this as someone that does NOT enjoy Bozja/Eureka. I don’t want the people who enjoy it to lose the content, I just don’t want the dev team to keep sticking the relic behind it and that seems to be how they justify making a whole zone for it. This is me trying to meet in the middle, trying to keep the spirit of the instances alive, without requiring the long dev time to make a whole zone just for it.

So please, tell me what you enjoy about Bozja, do you think this system would scratch the same itch for you guys? Of what I’ve typed out here, what do you like, what have I gotten horribly wrong, what would you add/change?

TL;DR put as much of Bozja/Eureka into the overworld as possible so the relic isn’t tied to it.

Just delete bozja all together. They took everything bad about eureka and put it all into one place.

I like both first and foremost for the grind, in Eureka with every NM killed it felt as if you were getting closer and closer to your goal of a new weapon and potentially Armour, this is how you design a good grind, make it so the players efforts are rewarded gradually, and don't make it feel like they're working towards nothing with bad RNG. The social aspect is another thing I enjoy, I detest miserable people who can't be fcked to say Hello or GG at the beginning or end of a dungeons, in Bozja and especially Eureka people are always talking about something.

Now all that applies to both, but honestly it applies more to 5.X Eureka as holy hell Sqeenix has made some bloody stupid decisions with Bozja.

First off, why does it feel like I'm working towards nothing when trying to get my artifact weapon? I did over 2 dozen CE's yesterday and got 1 loathsome memory, and I didn't even think I got a single red memory. And why is it faster to run years old, synced 50 content that everyone is sick of? Its boring, you feel like your playtime in Bozja is worthless because of the terrible RNG, its not like old school JRPG's and Eureka where you constantly feel like you're working toward a goal, instead it feels as if you're throwing sh t at the wall and hoping it sticks for hours on end.

And that's just the weapons, of you wanna get dyeable Judge Magister Armour added in the patch, you have to augment the base Bozja gear, so that's potentially hundreds if not thousands of coins for a set or two, and even with earning coins from FATEs it is still slow as all hell as your earn a whopping 1 coin from skirmishes and I think 3 from CE's, oh and Castrum for coins? Yeah, good bloody luck more then likely you'll wipe because noobs didn't watch a guide for months old content and fail at a boss. But that's not all, you also need to do the new 48 man savage likey multiple times for one piece, so you could be stuck running one of what seems to be the hardest piece of content to pog because of the sheer amount of people required! And you'll likey need to do it dozens of times over the course of days, if not weeks.

Oh, and then there's the whole losing XP that turns people off, I'm more on the fence about this as you earn little for dying and can't level down, can't level down at max either, but I can definitely see how this would turn people off.

So it all comes down to Bozjas grind being worthless compared years old content, I've given up on the relic weapons, I don't play CT raids, and I'm sure as he'll not getting the materials from Bozja. Will try to get some armour though, at bare minimum the caster chest, but the only reason why is just because I adore the Judge Magister Armour, and if this were literally any other piece of armour I'd just skip it, savage and EX can be a bloody nightmare thanks to some of the people you get, not to mention the ridiculous coin grind, so who the heck even knows if ill end up getting it after all.

I like the concept, not how part of it works and especially not how little rewarding it is towards relic grind which is ending in past content -_-

I like Bozja because it's a difficulty between normal mode and savage.

I hated Eureka because it was a throwback to some of the worst design aspects of FFXI that were abandoned with XIV 2.0.

My feeling about relics, Bazja, and Eureka after doing all of them at least once: They are a complete and total waste of ones time unless you really want it for the looks. The original relic weapons were a nightmare to get, and even after fixing them it is nothing but grinding forever to find some kind of glimmer of happiness at the end that you got something no one else wants to get. Everything past that point? Pretty much the same.

I mean, I've seen people who do savage say that they are BIS stats in the end of the expansion and I'm sitting here, staring at the screen, and just wondering if they got any screws loose. The amount of time those stats are going to matter are a sliver of the time needed to even get the damn thing to begin with. I can totally get behind someone taking time off to blow down savage content, but doing stuff for the stats alone? In a game where they keep increasing the item level? It really isn't worth spending time grinding into oblivion if the only result is a small boost you enjoy for a month... or maybe a month and a half.

The content life expectancy was also much better in Eureka than Bazja and this new relic. I feel like this is due to it just adding onto existing content we already did. No one wants to go do the same fates they already ground for things like Yokai watch, holiday events, and probably prior relic grinds unless they left the game for a long time and came back.

Going to mention that I'm a tired, worn out player who has been going at this game since it launched in ARR. Things got really bad during the pandemic since content got delayed, and I even went into savage raiding which was something I never would have done normally, but the content got so bad with only repetitive crafting competitions and mogtome stuff to hold us over.

* I enjoy that there's a different progression system, even if it's not tied into other progression, and that it's something I can more or less do whenever I feel like it on my own.

* Since it has MB-able actions and cosmetics, there's usually some gil to be made if someone wanted to that's not just maps, or delving hard into crafting/gathering, or just gathering the second-most-recent tomestones and selling whatever hot material it is.

* Content like Castrum and the new Alliance raid keep it feeling a bit more fresh, though I do feel that Castrum should have some more incentive to run it (ie: Mettle/Exp, maybe a retroactive reward of a number of Bozjan silver coins, or something a little more interesting than a few base coins + a chance to get one of the augments).

* I'm not particularly partial to the fate grinding, I wish there was more you could do to break things up that still offer competitive progression alongside it (be it daily quests, weekly quests like Eureka eventually got, a bunny-fate-esque thing to go do for a bit to try and receive some extra rewards etc...)

* I like the CE's -- they're like, fun World Bosses. I think it'd be kinda cool if some of the more difficult ones (outside of the duels -- since they already do) could drop a mount at a low chance, or some cosmetic item, that makes re-doing them even after being Mettle capped a little more exciting in terms of the possible rewards.


I don't mind grindy content, especially when it's broken up (Skirmishes > CE's > Castrum do a somewhat good job, even if there can be some noticeable CE droughts). But it'd be nice if it could be further varied up (be it with daily quests to complete in the zone, or weekly quests, or more varied objectives -- like, say, a fate-event where you can pilot a war machina of some sort, that'd be cool)

I do feel some stuff is a bit much, like requiring 999 coins for a body augment (and 999 for the leg augment, 500 for the rest). It's... a lot, if Castrum gave you a decent chunk of it I'd be more or less fine with it, but it only gives about 20~ coins with a small chance to drop an augment.


That said, I like it overall. Bozja I like more than Eureka from a mechanical standpoint -- fights are more fun, fates are a bit more engaging than being afk while some group preps a NM, and it started off with a mini-Baldesion in the form of Castrum (Even if Delubrum Reginae [Savage] is probably more comparable).

Eureka's zones, outside of Pagos, were a bit prettier but the Southern Front is a war zone, so... I prolly can't complain much, as it does fit that theme.

Lost actions are interesting and can be fun, but by and large they're more like a side-additive to me. Especially since a lot tend to be passive buffs, which isn't inherently a bad thing, but there aren't actions that feel particularly game-changing to a class's overall function or anything like that. (I mean, I suppose, outside of the ability to use the buffs/actions to sort of fit a hybrid role, but I more mean like, an action that'd completely alter your rotation and priorities -- something that might interact with the core of the class, outside of stats alone or holding a niche use).

It's better than Eureka, and I feel like it took a lot of the good parts of Eureka to continue SE's evolution of Explorable Content.

(That said, I do wish it wasn't an instance, and could function as a zone in the overworld. Be nice to be able to sit in a queue for something and do a bit of Bozja on the side, esp if you're in a queue-type that takes a while to pop).

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Originally Posted by E4EO

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Yeah, it seems to me they designed this new relic+armor to be long term filler grind content. Probably some content drought coming up. The weapon grind is one thing, but the armor grind is another level. I'm almost glad most of the outfits look terrible on my au ra, my tail clips through the ones with capes , and the hair I always use (pretty much only use) clips badly. I'll probably go for at minimum the healer set. I might go for the caster set too, but probably not the dyable variant. Honestly though, I doubt I'd even get the full dyable version for healer, at least not anytime soon. That grind is definitely.. pretty bad.

The versatility in ways to play a job, actions to bring, items to use, etc. allows playing in ways modern MMOs often disable. It's fun to use irregular essence with lost font of power and ether kits as a dark knight for instance. It's fun - well, sorta -to bring 15 phoenix downs and resurrect an entire raid after a given pattern on Dawon's obey goes horribly wrong.

It seems like a lot of the dislike from this content stems from people not wanting to use what it gives you to do it IMO. Everyone's over here assuming "you can't just use phoenix downs in an MMO, those are for single player games, melee dps being able to resurrect everyone would be overpowered" and then they ignore the capacity to do exactly that.

So yeah the more content in that vein the better.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Yeah, it seems to me they designed this new relic+armor to be long term filler grind content

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I don't disagree, but I feel like this statement is true of all relic weapons anyway. It's not like Zodiac weapons or Anima weapons were designed to be completed in an evening, and Eureka weapons are one heck of a grind. Eureka even threw in a bonus armor grind as well!

Like it or hate it, I don't feel like the long-term grind for this should be a surprise.

I'd actually argue the new Law's Order stuff is a great deal more generous than Eureka; the pieces cost 2 or 3 of the Gold Bozjan Coins, and you can get 3 per week for just running Delubrum Reginae once.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

I don't disagree, but I feel like this statement is true of all relic weapons anyway. It's not like Zodiac weapons or Anima weapons were designed to be completed in an evening, and Eureka weapons are one heck of a grind. Eureka even threw in a bonus armor grind as well!

Like it or hate it, I don't feel like the long-term grind for this should be a surprise.

I'd actually argue the new Law's Order stuff is a great deal more generous than Eureka; the pieces cost 2 or 3 of the Gold Bozjan Coins, and you can get 3 per week for just running Delubrum Reginae once.

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I mean, I know relic grind is supposed to be filler, but I feel like all this is kind of excessive. For the regular armor yeah, the dyable armor variant is another story - which is what I was talking about. For regular armor, I'll probably grab healer and caster, but the others, I may just casually pick up. Like I said most look pretty bad on my au ra. The aiming (iirc) top looks really bad in general. Has a dump truck butt.

I loved Eureka but have yet to do much in Bozja. The fun of Eureka for me came of queueing into this pretty but dangerous realm where I could join random groups for any amount of time and still see results. It was relaxing yet useful content. I'd hop on a train for 30 minutes at a time before work or bed and just chill with some folk farming some light. Eventually got some fancy glamours and personally had a blast with it. It was similar to the party system in older games like FFXI. Nothing in there was so mechanic intensive that I couldn't chat the whole time and as long as you put in the work, you were rewarded. For someone like me with absolutely awful RNG luck, stuff that eventually rewards me regardless of luck is heaven.

That said, I haven't done much of Bozja. The idea of doing old Heavensward FATES alone for hours held little appeal. If current Bozja is more like Eureka, I might give it another go.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I mean, I know relic grind is supposed to be filler, but I feel like all this is kind of excessive. For the regular armor yeah, the dyable armor variant is another story - which is what I was talking about. For regular armor, I'll probably grab healer and caster, but the others, I may just casually pick up. Like I said most look pretty bad on my au ra. The aiming (iirc) top looks really bad in general. Has a dump truck butt.

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Fair.

To elaborate, I was thinking that the Elemental Armor was a pretty chonky grind, since you had to pick up the base Elemental Armor in Pyros with a honkload of Pyros crystals (which you therefore could not use on your relic weapon), then augment said armor in Hydatos with Hydatos crystals (which, again, means you couldn't use them for your Hydatos weapon), and then gather materials in the Baldesion Arsenal to finish the upgrades.

In contrast, the costs of the base armor here aren't bad, and the currency you use is not what's shared with the weapon augmentation; the grind to augment is pretty brutal, considering you need to augment the base Bozjan resistance gear, and get the base Law's Order gear, and get the Secrets used to augment it as well. So you'll be at it for A While, but at least you aren't stealing from your weapon's progression to aid armor progression.

But the base Bozjan stuff can't be dyed, where the base Elemental stuff can. So... yeah, if you just want a plain-but-dyeable set for glam (or use in general gameplay, where the Elemental or Bozjan effects gained with augmentation have no meaning), Eureka's definitely less of a grindfest since you can just get the stuff in Pyros and call it a day.

And it sounds like that was what you were aiming for, so from that perspective, I concede the point.

I enjoyed elements of both Eureka and Bozja. The latter has a more engaging story to me whereas the former had more impressive 'outdoor' zones.

I'd like to see further incentives added. Additional music rolls, minions and glamour. It all feels rather light to me so far. I ran through Castrum even though I didn't need to any longer and walked away with a loss of mettle and some extra coins. It baffles me that we don't earn a chunk of gil for getting through it - farming bunny chests in Eureka was far more profitable.

I enjoyed Eureka for feeling like semi-challenging solo content. Thinking about enemy aggro types, and paying enough attention to successfully accomplish goals without getting wrecked, knowing limits and eventually surpassing them.

Haven't cracked into Bozja content yet.

I liked the time sink behind both of them; not to mention they are perfect for making gil, particularly for combat. Though above anything I really just love how alive the zones felt with the amount of players, and not to mention the overall design of the maps

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Originally Posted by Sandoria

That said, I haven't done much of Bozja. The idea of doing old Heavensward FATES alone for hours held little appeal. If current Bozja is more like Eureka, I might give it another go.

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I have good news for you. The heavensward fates are the slow way. What I recommend is checking your datacenter's exploratory mission community for memory farming groups and doing that part while in bozja. You'll get fragments for the lost skills, you'll get clusters for the cosmetics/mount, and you'll get plenty of memories. While there is RNG involved, if you do this with both yellow/red/blue memory and green memory quests active at once you can absolutely get them at a faster rate. One of the biggest differences between bozja and eureka is viability of the train.

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Originally Posted by Jade3173

TL;DR put as much of Bozja/Eureka into the overworld as possible so the relic isn’t tied to it.

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This crying about the relic is a bit much now. You literally have two ways to do it, one of which is farming old ARR easy mode content.

They’re literally asking you to complete the story of Bozjan Southern Front which takes far less time than most stages of previous relics.

Do you want to get your relic weapon ERP’ing in Limsa or something? I don’t see why there’s this expectation that you need this weapon if you’re not willing to do the content it requires.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

This crying about the relic is a bit much now. You literally have two ways to do it, one of which is farming old ARR easy mode content.

They’re literally asking you to complete the story of Bozjan Southern Front which takes far less time than most stages of previous relics.

Do you want to get your relic weapon ERP’ing in Limsa or something? I don’t see why there’s this expectation that you need this weapon if you’re not willing to do the content it requires.

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except like many others, I don't like Bozja style content and would rather go back to the ARR/HW ways of getting them. Pretty much what the entire post is about is trying to get a middle ground. And as others, in other threads, have pointed out, it's a bit odd to suddenly require it after 3 steps of not needing bozja. So sure, can call it crying, but I'm actually trying to find something constructive for people who do enjoy Bozja so I can go back to enjoying my ARR/HW relic grind

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Originally Posted by Jade3173

except like many others, I don't like Bozja style content and would rather go back to the ARR/HW ways of getting them. Pretty much what the entire post is about is trying to get a middle ground. And as others, in other threads, have pointed out, it's a bit odd to suddenly require it after 3 steps of not needing bozja. So sure, can call it crying, but I'm actually trying to find something constructive for people who do enjoy Bozja so I can go back to enjoying my ARR/HW relic grind

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But you don’t need this relic that’s my point. It’s an optional weapon that’s on par with a savage raid weapon and only a little bit better than a tomestone weapon.

If you don’t want to do the content that it requires then just don’t do it.

The problem with the relic is they made the beginning steps far too easy and let a lot of people start it who now are upset. But if you can’t spend 10 hours or so to complete the main Bozja quest then relic grinds maybe aren’t for you. They aren’t asking you to even get the memories in there, simply they want you to complete one quest line and do two dungeons one time.

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Originally Posted by Jade3173

except like many others, I don't like Bozja style content and would rather go back to the ARR/HW ways of getting them. Pretty much what the entire post is about is trying to get a middle ground. And as others, in other threads, have pointed out, it's a bit odd to suddenly require it after 3 steps of not needing bozja. So sure, can call it crying, but I'm actually trying to find something constructive for people who do enjoy Bozja so I can go back to enjoying my ARR/HW relic grind

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Also those ARR/HW relics would have made you cry if you did them when they were current.

This new relic is the easiest relic grind we have ever had by far. Comparing it to years old heavily nerfed content and expecting that same level of ease is just not what relics are about.

You’ll get a chance to get it easily later on.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

But you don’t need this relic that’s my point. It’s an optional weapon that’s on par with a savage raid weapon and only a little bit better than a tomestone weapon.

If you don’t want to do the content that it requires then just don’t do it.

The problem with the relic is they made the beginning steps far too easy and let a lot of people start it who now are upset. But if you can’t spend 10 hours or so to complete the main Bozja quest then relic grinds maybe aren’t for you. They aren’t asking you to even get the memories in there, simply they want you to complete one quest line and do two dungeons one time.

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except they were, that's why I had 4 luxs by the time HW ended and went back in SB to get BRD's. I also honestly have no problem with what they're asking for the steps. Would probably cut down to DNC and SCH or GNB rather than the 6 or 7 I currently have sitting at the i500 step. If Square turned around tomorrow and removed the need to do Bozja's story, I'd be all over getting my DNC's relic.

But you seem to be on the warpath saying everyone is crying if they don't like bozja. Funny, it's a forum, people are offering their feedback that the sudden requirement of it, and thus trying to get in for Castrum, is bad design since if you're not in the initial wave, you're going to be hard pressed to get it done

Bozja is great because its a difficulty between Normal and Savage which we need more of. Basically Extreme level fight but has more players so you can get used to it easier without completely destroying the groups progress if you mess up mechanics and introduces harder more punishing mechanics.

Alliance raids I feel are too easy and Bozja is a nice compromise.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

Also those ARR/HW relics would have made you cry if you did them when they were current.

This new relic is the easiest relic grind we have ever had by far. Comparing it to years old heavily nerfed content and expecting that same level of ease is just not what relics are about.

You’ll get a chance to get it easily later on.

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Noticed you always assume people didn't do relics before when they were relevant, you really shouldn't assume things.

Did my WHM Zeta, I got my Z title the hard way. Admittedly it is my only ARR relic. 100% did AST's HW relic when it was new, got to skip the first stage of it cause I turned in my WHM's Zeta. Enjoyed doing it so much that I actually started farming stuff for PLD's relic alongside my AST's. Once I figured out I enjoyed BLM and MNK enough to want more up to date weapons for them since I was no longer raiding, started doing those as well. Yes by that time some of the stages had been nerfed, but I'd already done 2 relics so I wasn't going to complain

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Originally Posted by Vickii

Also those ARR/HW relics would have made you cry if you did them when they were current.

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Completely incorrect. I did ARR and especially HW on multiple classes when they were current. I experienced the original atma grind though it was one reason I had less than I went for in HW. Animas were great. Yeah, they required a grind. But they made it possible to log on that night and progress a bit further, and you had choices on how to get the required updates.

Relics are supposed to be the slower casual alternative to the faster-to-get Savage weapons. They are supposed to be a grind. They also in ARR and HW had the added benefit that they breathed new life into older content by having quests that progressed from doing it. That's one good thing about the outside Bozja alternatives on this questline.

But they aren't supposed to be tied to instanced zones with limited shelf lives peppered with forced group content that will die once the content piranhas are done with it. You're very flippant about all the people here who are saying Castrum is a massive bottleneck for them now. And that's due to SE's bad design choices.

I started playing Eureka when it first started. I was amazed with the idea in concept but remembered how diadem went. Big and open with regular fates and nothing else. The only change was the element wheel and certain number of fates popping NMs. You were locked out of mounts and atherytes early stage and if you were lower element level, you'd get easily one shot and pray for revive or for someone to let you ride their 2/4 player mount. And mobs were huge HP sponges that preferred tanks or healers before eureka actions were added and locked behind a further zone. And the special "raid" was tied to the last zone and was rare and easily exploited to break pre-made group planning with a lackluster conclusion to any story. A bunch of lalafels take you to a deserted island? Hooray...
I'm glad I stopped there since even the relics looked ugly.

I was concerned with Bozja early on if it would be just the same. Big empty zone with many more big empty zones later to further split the playerbase. But it being the land where Hrothgar were and rolling as one day 1. I felt more engaged with the story and content loop than Eureka, I need a better reason to go somewhere rather than "go on adventure". And the story is closely tied to the MSQ in terms of plot revelations and lore. Bozja is on the opposite side of the empire and we're ridding the place of gentrification and backwaters aristotle state theory tied in a fascist bow. So the plot and drive to play the content is already miles ahead of Eureka. Gameplaynwise, they got rid of the most annoying parts of Eureka and improved them at the expense of very little rewards for the sake of pleasing people who didn't want to play much Eureka or any sort of that content, thereby pleasing fewer. Though, by design I do appreciate that there might be just 1 or 2 zones that are much more condensed and filled with multiple skirmish(fates) and mobs. Critical Engagements being what the primal capture encounters could have been if Yoshida implemented them before scrapping. With some Skirmishes giving you buff priority to engage in them. And the smaller funneled in zones keeps players close together so there is less of a visible train and more circles of players coming to participate in all directions. And the lost actions and mobs are much more inclusive and/or easier to manage. And I don't mind enemies not dropping mettle, you're incentiviezd to party up and join CE. the problem is not getting mettle or other bigger rewards from Castrum.

Its a fun encounter that has people try and communicate and its now tied to relic completion. Its such a cool feeling when you down it without voice chat. Yet its such a cluster of inconvenience and with no mettle to at least cushion for the amount you lost scares players from at least trying besides the long wait time. How about using coins in exchange for mettle back? Its only for superfluous gear with the upgrades giving haste that might ruin rotations. And please, just give 90 minutes to clear at the start. Nothing is more sad when you get past Lyon and you only got the boss at 10% before it boots you and then have to leave if you're running low on instance time meaning the next time it pops could be completely different players. The 24 man and even the 48 man are what it should've been. Even with the 3 strikes you're out mechanic it incentives players to just crank dps or agility build lost actions. EVEN THE WEEKLY QUEST GETS YOU METTLE! For someone that dies only 1 to 3 times in there that generously gets me back to cap.

Overall. Bozja has the potential to easily usurp all of Eureka by just prioritizing more rewards and have Castrum be easier to pop and cushion mettle sink. Meaning the 24 man has a justifiable reason for the punishing doom mechanic since its even easier to join. Personally, I never felt happier with such content. Joining people on the Frontline to storm Castrum in a story that really meshes with my player character and the MSQ. The devs having the relic quest locked behind it makes me inspired to learn it while inviting more players in to teach/lead. I just learned and trounced Lyon just to help new players focus on Gryphon for the first time. If this is how early MMOs were, then I can see why it was appreciated. Building a group against something that is close to being t1-5 coil difficult and seeing new players excited chats really is its own reward that I never thought I could reclaim since 2015 (scheduled raid groups are still dumb).

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Originally Posted by Vickii

Also those ARR/HW relics would have made you cry if you did them when they were current.

This new relic is the easiest relic grind we have ever had by far. Comparing it to years old heavily nerfed content and expecting that same level of ease is just not what relics are about.

You’ll get a chance to get it easily later on.

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B.S.

This relic is relatively easy while it's current. Later when people literally can't get anyone to run CLL, they'll hit a massive roadblock.

That's the problem with ilvl syncing and level syncing relic content, it becomes harder to do after the expansion instead of easier.

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Originally Posted by Jade3173

except like many others, I don't like Bozja style content and would rather go back to the ARR/HW ways of getting them. Pretty much what the entire post is about is trying to get a middle ground. And as others, in other threads, have pointed out, it's a bit odd to suddenly require it after 3 steps of not needing bozja. So sure, can call it crying, but I'm actually trying to find something constructive for people who do enjoy Bozja so I can go back to enjoying my ARR/HW relic grind

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Quick question.

Did you do the ARR/HW relics when they were released, or the heavily nerfed forms available today?
Because if you find farming fates in Bozja boring. Explain to me how farming fates in upper la noscea for 6 days to get ONE of twelve drops was fun. Or having to spend stupid amounts of gil trying to fit materias into a relic while praying to God the goddam thing actually enters this time and doesnt break both the materia AND the alexandrite. Running Garuda and Cape Westwind for hours upon hours to get lights... etc.

I liked Eureka because it was my first time doing this (didn't really touch Diadem back then). Sure it had its flaws but I had a great time in the end, people were fun, preparing NMs felt meaningful, and the time you put in your relic didn't appear as such because you were doing something else in Eureka (at least it felt like this for me).
I also liked the maps, it was the first time FFXIV open world meant something in a gameplay perspective.

Bozja for me took everything fun about Eureka and made something very insipid. The map isnt interesting, the fates are redundant and CE aren't really prepared. Everything just happens and you happen to be there too. One VS One are a design failure. Castrum Lacus Litore is poorly thought (although the instance was okay), and they seem to be repeating the very same mistake with Delubrum Reginae. The content wears out so fast.
And the relic part is either too random within Bozja, or so out of touch with the current content of the game outside of Bozja that it's just demotivating when we have done Crystal Tower or POTD ad nauseam in our basic gaming experience. I don't really mind FATEs but we've just got Yokai overdose, and now I hear they are not guaranteed to drop tokens. Expecting us to go back in the first Bozja zone is just so lazy when the droprate isn't interesting either. I think it's just an overall design failure.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

I don't disagree, but I feel like this statement is true of all relic weapons anyway. It's not like Zodiac weapons or Anima weapons were designed to be completed in an evening, and Eureka weapons are one heck of a grind. Eureka even threw in a bonus armor grind as well!

Like it or hate it, I don't feel like the long-term grind for this should be a surprise.

I'd actually argue the new Law's Order stuff is a great deal more generous than Eureka; the pieces cost 2 or 3 of the Gold Bozjan Coins, and you can get 3 per week for just running Delubrum Reginae once.

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The surprise is that it's infinitely more viable to do the relic grind outside of the content that was designed for it.
Memory drops in Bozja should be comparable to memory drops outside, so that people actually play Bozja and it's not a dead instance in a weeks time.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

But you don’t need this relic that’s my point. It’s an optional weapon that’s on par with a savage raid weapon and only a little bit better than a tomestone weapon.

If you don’t want to do the content that it requires then just don’t do it.

The problem with the relic is they made the beginning steps far too easy and let a lot of people start it who now are upset. But if you can’t spend 10 hours or so to complete the main Bozja quest then relic grinds maybe aren’t for you. They aren’t asking you to even get the memories in there, simply they want you to complete one quest line and do two dungeons one time.

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To be fair, this logic applies to literally the entire game. You don't "need" anything. That does not absolve it from criticism. The entire purpose of having alternative method this expansion was to address complains people had going from the ARR/HW grind to Eureka. Therefore, arbitrarily forcing people into Bozja if they want to continue their relic progression defeats the point of their being a second method. Adding insult to injury, this current step forces people who actually like Bozja out of it and into old content they likely don't want to run. Somehow, the dev team failed at both address the actual complaint people add and didn't satisfy either demographic. It's outright baffling how spectacularly this missed the mark.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

Also those ARR/HW relics would have made you cry if you did them when they were current.

This new relic is the easiest relic grind we have ever had by far. Comparing it to years old heavily nerfed content and expecting that same level of ease is just not what relics are about.

You’ll get a chance to get it easily later on.

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As someone who did the HW relic prior to any nerfs. No, it isn't. This is easily the most tedious simply because we have so few options. Yes, if you spammed ARF for ten hours, you might drive yourself mad despite its efficiency. However, you could do other things. Conversely, you could simply take your time. Neither of this is feasible with the Resistance Weapons. You're forced to do Alliance raids or pray to the RNG gods. And should you wait, you'll likely get walled by both Castrum and DR seeing less activity due to their paltry rewards. It's horribly shortsighted design.

That being said, Atmas were worse. However, they have been rightly criticised as one of the dumbest RNG grinds this game ever attempted. Since the devs never went back to drop rates that low again. At least they learned?

Very unhappy with the current itineration of the requirements and just for one weapon.

It's really a big disappoint to me at this point especially since I've taken a number of alts to R15 and got them multiples of the 500 weapon for their roles. Going to be a skip this step for most of them now and seriously all the work for nothing at this point. I at least like some of the 500 weapons for glamour and the new ones aren't really inspiring for me anyway. I main WHM and I find the WHM weapon design terrible. I much prefer the current 500 version.

I had a lot more fun with Eureka. It was for me at least really fun open world content. This going back to the farming of old uninspiring content like 24 man raids just isn't fun. Sadly many wanted this and they got what they asked for and in many respects actually killing the zone designed for the weapon to begin with.

I will take my main through one weapon at least and possibly another alt where I have a fiend who had done the content on Spriggan. Other than that I'll clear the relic dungeon and possible complete the first stage long term given i use alliance regularly to help cap my toons. Can't see doing much more than that at this point unless some nerfs or adjustments are made which I don't suspect is going to happen anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by Ashgarth

Quick question.

Did you do the ARR/HW relics when they were released, or the heavily nerfed forms available today?
Because if you find farming fates in Bozja boring. Explain to me how farming fates in upper la noscea for 6 days to get ONE of twelve drops was fun. Or having to spend stupid amounts of gil trying to fit materias into a relic while praying to God the goddam thing actually enters this time and doesnt break both the materia AND the alexandrite. Running Garuda and Cape Westwind for hours upon hours to get lights... etc.

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They already answered your question.

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Originally Posted by MilkieTea

They already answered your question.

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Then I ask to be enlightened on how that grind was somehow fun.

I enjoyed Eureka( Except for Pagos, Pagos was trash). It was something new and exciting. It was the devs taking a chance at creating something new and learning from diadem. Eureka brough people together because it had to. It was the only way to get the relic so people tried to make it as fun as possible.

Bozja splits the playerbase into 2 with 1 half doing the grind inside and the other outside of Bozja. But to make matters worse Bozja has very very very bad rewards and since the drop rates for relic items outside of Bozja are higher than doing the actual content inside of Bozja, it really makes Bozja dead on arrival.

They need to balance the reward structure. Was Eureka perfect? No but Anemos, Pyros and Hydatos are way better than Bozja by far.

I like using the Lost Actions/Essences here. If you played Pyros/Hydatos like I did, making use of them felt special and rewarding. [Not that I am going to convince you anyway.] If it was put in the open world, might as well discard the MMO role Trinity altogether for this game.

The mounts, minions, emotes, and various rewards are icing on the cake.

Skirmishes are just fates, but Critical Engagements are similar in difficulty to the likes of Hashmal, Construct 7, and all bosses in Orbonne Monstary (not counting pre-nerf Thunder God of course).

At the end of the day, I enjoyed the Bozja more than I enjoyed Eureka (including Pyros/Hydatos), and I made use of the rewards I earned from that place without taking them for granted.

They could improve the rewards for Castrum though by adding mettle and EXP.

I love Eureka and hate Bozja.

I think a lot of people who just bluntly hate Eureka never saw it to the end, and by the end the devs found how to make Eureka really good.

If they'd just taken all the best parts of Eureka Pyros and Hydatos and made *that* into Bozja, we'd have good content. But Bozja as it is is completely hollow.

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Originally Posted by Ashgarth

Quick question.

Did you do the ARR/HW relics when they were released, or the heavily nerfed forms available today?
Because if you find farming fates in Bozja boring. Explain to me how farming fates in upper la noscea for 6 days to get ONE of twelve drops was fun. Or having to spend stupid amounts of gil trying to fit materias into a relic while praying to God the goddam thing actually enters this time and doesnt break both the materia AND the alexandrite. Running Garuda and Cape Westwind for hours upon hours to get lights... etc.

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Simple, atma was bad design and Square hasn't done relic stages with that level of RNG since. People who defend bozja, which if you like it then go ahead and do so, seem to bring this up like it's some sort of grand argument that'll instantly shut people up. Bad design is bad design and we've moved away.

As for the alexandrite and materia section, didn't find it bad, doing the maps for alexandrite wasn't bad and were done quickly and while you had to either spiritbond your own gear and hope for the right materia, I did just buy them off the marketboard. Just going and grabbing a few Fire Clusters or something when I was on was more than enough to cover costs of materia. Gave me a use for my Botanist that I'd leveled. Light grinding is a very simple answer, I didn't run the same instance over and over again because it was "efficient". Sure if something I didn't mind doing a few times had bonus I'd go in again, but I just grabbed light by doing my normal daily stuff.

I simply don't like having to go into an instance to grind monsters/fates and do nothing else. Can't queue for anything as a DPS while I wait, can't go easily go and gather any of the timed materials, while Castrum sounds fun, again, Square just kinda did bad design again.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

The surprise is that it's infinitely more viable to do the relic grind outside of the content that was designed for it.
Memory drops in Bozja should be comparable to memory drops outside, so that people actually play Bozja and it's not a dead instance in a weeks time.

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Yeah, I have no idea what happened there, but I'm in agreement with you.

I can understand making the drop rate for Memories in Bozja lower than outside; the balance is that I can run Crystal Tower raids and get one guaranteed drop of one type of Memory, whereas in Bozja I can be doing skirmishes and critical engagements and such and potentially get some combination of many different memories (Harrowing, Sorrowful, Tortured, Bitter, Loathsome, etc.) -- as well as stuff like Lockboxes and Bozjan Clusters and Forgotten Fragments. Bozja gives you the convenience of grinding multiple stages at once, so you can have several relic weapons in flight, at the cost of uncertainty since you never know which ones will drop; doing stuff outside Bozja gives you the surety of guaranteed drops, but at the cost of only advancing one relic step in a given duty.

But right now, the drop rate for, say, Loathsome memories in Bozja is so bad that I could literally farm all 15 that I'd need through Crystal Tower before I even saw one drop while running Bozja content for that same amount of time. And that seems like a balance issue.

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Originally Posted by Jade3173

Simple, atma was bad design and Square hasn't done relic stages with that level of RNG since. People who defend bozja, which if you like it then go ahead and do so, seem to bring this up like it's some sort of grand argument that'll instantly shut people up. Bad design is bad design and we've moved away.

As for the alexandrite and materia section, didn't find it bad, doing the maps for alexandrite wasn't bad and were done quickly and while you had to either spiritbond your own gear and hope for the right materia, I did just buy them off the marketboard. Just going and grabbing a few Fire Clusters or something when I was on was more than enough to cover costs of materia. Gave me a use for my Botanist that I'd leveled. Light grinding is a very simple answer, I didn't run the same instance over and over again because it was "efficient". Sure if something I didn't mind doing a few times had bonus I'd go in again, but I just grabbed light by doing my normal daily stuff.

I simply don't like having to go into an instance to grind monsters/fates and do nothing else. Can't queue for anything as a DPS while I wait, can't go easily go and gather any of the timed materials, while Castrum sounds fun, again, Square just kinda did bad design again.

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That's one of my biggest issues with Eureka and even Bozja. There's an extensive amount of time you have to lock yourself away from the entire rest of the game to progress on your relic. It's not a situation like before where you go get the quest and you run your daily stuff and that gets you some updates. Then you might decide to go spend an hour or two on a specific grind. Or you could go whole hog and grind for hours like some. For Eureka and Bozja, you can't just go do the content that you like.

If they wanted to tie relics to Bozja, then normal mobs should give mettle, there should be daily missions for mettle, and the Challenge Log should give mettle. Then it's not an endless FATE farm. The questline should not have involved an instance like CLL. The most should have been an 8 man trial with an option like recent MSQ for a Trustable version. That would have both future proofed the content and attracted the casual playerbase. It would also allow things like CLL and DR to be as challenging as possible for those who like that content without shoving people who don't into it and watering down the experience.

With the way they're doing it, they're not making the rewards worthwhile to those who enjoy the content and they're turning casuals off by trying to push them into content they don't like. And it's not going to work. Casuals just won't do it.