Level 80s who single target groups of mobs

............................

Just today i did a leveling roulett on my twink... Dusk vigil... nice run overall, not too fast but still ok... But i realized the lv 60+ blm barely used flare, never used fire 2 and spammed fire 3 till oom - wait - wait some more till you got mana - ice. And some thunder every now and then... I suck as blm and abandoned it for rdm... but that just hurt me. At one point i told him to used transpose if hes oom, which he did now, at least sometimes...

People like that get till 80 just fine, idk how or why...

Video games are hard, and some people learn at a slower pace than others. People who focus on metagaming tend to gravitate towards other genres like arcade games, or non-arcade competitive games like MOBAs, or anything with a focus on twitch reflexes, rather than role playing games.

People often stick with a playstyle that has suited them well. Or may have a different philosophy of play than others.

Also, a lot of people can be pretty rude and demanding when it comes to giving others advice. Just as often as people are defensive when given advice, others are offensive. It's a chicken and egg situation. Maybe people are sensitive because they've had people rude about their playstyle in the past? I mean, you don't exactly sound the most polite yourself, right now. Is it really that bad to spend 35 minutes in a dungeon? A little patience in life goes a long way. I think roleplayers and Gposers often have the right of it, in that they often live in the moment, instead of feeling like they have to being in a rush at all times.

XIV gives you the tools to avoid players who are slow or don't have optimal DPS if you so choose. It sounds like you may prefer developing a static that reflects your standards.

The game itself does a poor job of teaching people about certain situations. So firstly, I would blame the dev team for some of this issue. Sure, one could say "read your tooltips!" but...there's a portion of the player base that truly doesn't care. They will play how they want, even if how they play isn't really meant to be in a team setting. That is the other part of the problem. Yes, the game is supposed to be fun. That is what video games are for! And people should enjoy what they play. But when you enter a party of 3, 7 or 23 other people...it's about working together as a team for everyone's enjoyment. The "I'LL PLAY HOW I WANT!" mentality is left at the door, or at least it should be.

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

Is it really that bad to spend 35 minutes in a dungeon?

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Yes. Yes it is. 20 minutes is what you're looking for as a timeframe for "people played poorly, but it's not worth getting upset over."

35 minutes is beyond egregious. It means not a single one of the four people were doing their job.

The real question is why you tolerate people using single-target abilities on packs in a level 80 dungeon. Kick those people. They’re not new.

Well sometimes there is one thing you want to kill fast before aoeing the rest, or in some classes like monk I want twin snakes up for the aoe, also its nice to dot 1st then aoe in my opinion. On paladin i single target after my aoe combo so i can build my mp back up for next big pull

There's things you want to kill fast (one with such trash which comes to mind is Amaurot) but nothing that can't be managed by the tank, healer or dps, and the loss of dps just isn't worth it, so it's still better to AOE. Nevermind the latest dungeons, which are a cakewalk. There's no real excuse not to AOE unless the dungeon is forcing you not to... looking at you, Anamnesis Anyder. Anyway it's rather clear from the OP that this doesn't fit those kind of examples which you bring up, of occasional ST ability use. This is just a case of bad form.

The duty finder whiner thread is still on the front page, bro. All the same a 35min dungeon sounds like there was more going on that just one MCH not aoeing lol.

I think a lot of you citing these "35 minute" runs are basically BSing. Single pulling in a Trust, with everyone but me single target DPSing, dungeons take about 25 minutes. So, I'm guessing that either a lot of you can't math very well, or you come up with these numbers because you don't think the truth will get you enough sympathy or make your point.

Someone single targeting in a dungeon isn't a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I think a lot of you citing these "35 minute" runs are basically BSing. Single pulling in a Trust, with everyone but me single target DPSing, dungeons take about 25 minutes maximum. So, I'm guessing that either a lot of you can't math very well, or you come up with these numbers because you don't think the truth will get you enough sympathy or make your point.

Someone single targeting in a dungeon isn't a big deal.

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To me, 35 minutes isn't a huge deal anyway. As a tank, that's about how long my Trust dungeons run since Trusts forgot their AoE spells.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

To me, 35 minutes isn't a huge deal anyway. As a tank, that's about how long my Trust dungeons run since Trusts forgot their AoE spells.

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Tanking with trusts generally only takes me about 30 minutes at most, maybe because I still wall to wall and AoE them myself.

The only time I really see 35 minute dungeons is if someone AFK's for 10 minutes and we all decide to be polite. I don't buy it happening as often as people around here act like it does; I think anytime someone has a disappointing run they come here, exaggerate the hell out of it and then wait for their pat on the head.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Tanking with trusts generally only takes me about 30 minutes at most, maybe because I still wall to wall and AoE them myself.

The only time I really see 35 minute dungeons is if someone AFK's for 10 minutes and we all decide to be polite. I don't buy it happening as often as people around here act like it does; I think anytime someone has a disappointing run they come here, exaggerate the hell out of it and then wait for their pat on the head.

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I have trust issues (:p) when it comes to running dungeons with NPCs. So I typically only pull a group at a time. I happily trade an extra 5-10 minutes for an added sense of security. With random people I pull wall to wall unless someone requests otherwise. Can't say I've ever had anyone ask me to pull less. I have, however, had to adapt to what the party as a whole is capable of every now and then.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

words

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Almost all my runs with randoms run about 15minutes or so. Every now and again they push 20 but it's not even that common. So yeah either people are exaggerating like crazy or they're bad(worse than me LOL) and don't even realize it.

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Originally Posted by hobostew

Almost all my runs with randoms run about 15minutes or so. Every now and again they push 20 but it's not even that common. So yeah either people are exaggerating like crazy or they're bad(worse than me LOL) and don't even realize it.

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30 minute dungeons or more aren't a common occurrence, at least in my experience. That is what makes them a bit more frustrating when it does happen because it's uncommon. I wouldn't call it straight up rare, but it's definitely not normal, even for this player base which is about as casual as one can get. Not a bad thing exactly (I'm a casual player too) just an observation. I do take my own performance in any given content seriously though. And I play. A lot. Probably too much. But it's okay.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I have trust issues (:p) when it comes to running dungeons with NPCs. So I typically only pull a group at a time. I gladly trade an extra 5-10 minutes for an added sense of security.

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lol, I don't blame you. What my Trust groups like to do if I'm not paying enough attention is single target rip one of the mobs I'm pulling off me, and then stand there fighting it instead of following me.

Still, most of the time it's faster and it makes Trusts a bit more exciting.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

https://www.memeatlas.com/images/bra...-thumbnail.jpg

Why can't we have a reality where its just objective fact that people are ass and make things take an incredibly large amount of time? I'll never know.

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There is a portion of the player base (no idea how large or small) that is exactly as you described. But I would still consider it an uncommon occurrence to encounter them in a dungeon/raid/trial/etc. Not rare, but not normal. They seem to come out in droves for Extreme trials and PvP though! But I'm not sure if it's just bad luck or if the universe is trying to tell me something.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Single pulling in a Trust, with everyone but me single target DPSing, dungeons take about 25 minutes. Someone single targeting in a dungeon isn't a big deal.

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Ironically, all of my trust runs went faster when I go in as a healer instead of DPS. About 2m-4m in difference.

For a run to take 35m without players afk'ing or wipes, there has to be more problem going on than just 'one MCH barely AoEing.' It could be all member not keeping their GCD rolling. It could be one of them standing idly from time to time. It could be single pulling. It could be players messing up their rotation. It could be mixed of all mentioned case.
OP did not mention which lv80 dungeon. I'd guess it's Amaurot since that dungeon's design makes it last a little longer than the other 80s but even that won't take a goddamn'ed 35m.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Why are you like this?

The culprit? Some MCH sitting there doing his single target rotation with the occasional Auto Crossbow. This is against about 7 enemies+ or so.

I feel like there should be some forced 'Class Certification' every 10 levels so you will have no excuse to not understand basic concepts.

Have it go over things like...

- Explaining to healers that you can actually do damage instead of standing still
- Explain to Tanks that cooldowns exist
- Explain to DPS that on about 3 targets, it'd be better to do AOEs.
- Etc.

Sorry, coming from a dude who just spent damn near 35 Minutes in a Level 80 Dungeon who is pretty salty.

inb4 tHeReS nIneTy MiNuTeS oF DunGeOn TiMe, sO eXpeCt tO ReAliStiCaLly StAy ThAt LoNg.

https://www.memeatlas.com/images/bra...-thumbnail.jpg

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Because it wasn't taught to them properly.

As a former trainer for new joiners in my company, I wholeheartedly support this form of "certification". We cannot take anything for granted.

The game definitely need some form of:
1) Newbie training
2) Knowledge Check of the Newbie Training
3) Refresher Course
4) Certification
5) Re-certification (long term)

So I know this is just a game. So let's make it more fun:
1) Newbie training - this already exists with the Hall of the Novice, it's quite fun, but please introduce more mechanics such as Limit Break, AoE concept, Cooldown concepts, avoiding Boss AoE, standing in friendly AoEs.

2) Knowledge Check is a MUST in any form of training - for this game's purpose, perhaps if you cannot complete the Knowledge Check portion (which can be like a solo trial - think Bardam's Mettle 2nd boss to pass the Boss AoE check), then maybe you cannot lose your Sprout status.

3) Refresher Course is needed whenever there are new abilities or new revamps of skills being introduced, or new job being introduced. This is only based on need. For example, let's take the introduction of DRK. Everyone will need to take a Refresher Course, especially healers, to understand that Living Dead is a skill that is critical for healers to understand. Same thing for other jobs towards other jobs. Here's a new DRG cooldown that will place this marker on the screen, stay nearby.

4) Certification when you reach level 70 or 80 is needed. It can be a solo trial again, and perhaps, the bonus for completing it is a Stat Bonus, or EXP Bonus+, or Achievement, or a nice Gear, or discount to apartment housing, or lotto tickets. Something that will give incentives to completing it, but not punish too much, since it's just a game. (FFXI was more harsh that if you didn't defeat Maat solo trial, you cannot increase in level).

5) Re-certification, maybe 3 months down the line, is needed to keep up our skills. The Stat Bonus from the first Certification only lasted 3 months, so it's worn out. Hence, you need to re-certify yourself. Same thing, incentives for completing it, either another Stat Bonus, even logo next to your name, a furniture.

Never underestimate the power of idgaf syndrome in large groups.

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

Video games are hard, and some people learn at a slower pace than others. People who focus on metagaming tend to gravitate towards other genres like arcade games, or non-arcade competitive games like MOBAs, or anything with a focus on twitch reflexes, rather than role playing games.

People often stick with a playstyle that has suited them well. Or may have a different philosophy of play than others.

Also, a lot of people can be pretty rude and demanding when it comes to giving others advice. Just as often as people are defensive when given advice, others are offensive. It's a chicken and egg situation. Maybe people are sensitive because they've had people rude about their playstyle in the past? I mean, you don't exactly sound the most polite yourself, right now. Is it really that bad to spend 35 minutes in a dungeon? A little patience in life goes a long way. I think roleplayers and Gposers often have the right of it, in that they often live in the moment, instead of feeling like they have to being in a rush at all times.

XIV gives you the tools to avoid players who are slow or don't have optimal DPS if you so choose. It sounds like you may prefer developing a static that reflects your standards.

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a static for a dungeon ? People who are tolerating bad gameplay like this are actually a huge problem in this game.

#YouDontPayMySub
#AutoAttacksOnlyIsTheRightWay
#ThereIs5MobsGonnaFire1ThisGroupDownYouShaddupAboutIt
#ThisMyElelatorNotYourElelatorIPushTheButton (Tiny Toons Adventures Reference)

Edit: corrected reference

I'll start with single attacks to get my two buffs up then I'll use my aoes.

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Originally Posted by AncientWillow

Well sometimes there is one thing you want to kill fast before aoeing the rest, or in some classes like monk I want twin snakes up for the aoe, also its nice to dot 1st then aoe in my opinion. On paladin i single target after my aoe combo so i can build my mp back up for next big pull

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What aoe combo are we talking about? Because your basic Total Eclipse -> Prominence combo already restores MP.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

This is genius. I wish that this wasn't attached to my part vitriolic, part feature request thread, but A+ man. You know whats up.

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If it’s in 6.0, then it can be integrated to Sharlayan University (since we are like 60% chance going to Sharlayan).

If you complete the certification, you can get a furniture to hang on the wall showing your Sharlayan University certificate. Heck, roll it as part of the Job quest 80-90.

Personally, i think those kind of people only exist because they managed to get this far without getting punished by the game for it, and since they didn't and won't be anytime soon, there is going to be even more of them in the near future, because difficulty, is almost nonexistent in Dungeons and 24 Man Raids (except maybe the Yorha raids).

The most effective way of learning both gameplay and its optimisation in my opinion, is and has always been trial and error un any kind if video game, but unless you plan on joining savage or other hardcore content, you don't even need it because you know you will get away with it, even if you're a BLM spam chaining ice 2 into fire 2 in melee range.

That's just my two cents on the matter, so try not taking it too seriously.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

Video games are hard, and some people learn at a slower pace than others.

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This excuse has long gotten tiresome. It isn't difficult to press an AoE combo sequence over a ST one. All you need to "learn" is reading your tooltips and have a grade school understanding of math.

I thought the punchline was going to be trusts again.

Guess not.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

To me, 35 minutes isn't a huge deal anyway. As a tank, that's about how long my Trust dungeons run since Trusts forgot their AoE spells.

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I use trusts to farm the dungeon glam while I do laundry. I don't even cast anything. I just stand there and move from mob pack to mob pack until its done. Usually about 25-30. Something is really wrong if you're in a dungeon of four real people and it takes 35minutes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quintessa

#YouDontPayMySub
#AutoAttacksOnlyIsTheRightWay
#ThereIs5MobsGonnaFire1ThisGroupDownYouShaddupAboutIt
#ThisMyElelatorNotYourElelatorIPushTheButton (Animaniacs Reference)

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I would thumb this up but.....it's Tiny Toon Adventures, not Animaniacs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

The game itself does a poor job of teaching people about certain situations. So firstly, I would blame the dev team for some of this issue. Sure, one could say "read your tooltips!" but...there's a portion of the player base that truly doesn't care.

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Also, the tooltips are not what I'd call a shining example of clear writing in many cases.

Yes, technically pretty much all of the information you need is there. But the way it's formatted can be extremely hard to process for someone trying to get used to a job. AST is particularly bad in this sense, but it's true of a lot of jobs.

Let's look at Arm's Length, for example:

Quote:

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Creates a barrier nullifying most knockback and draw-in effects.
Duration: 6s
Additional Effect: Slow +20% when barrier is struck
Duration: 15s

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First off, a lot of people read only the beginning of the tooltip, so more than a few may skip the Additional Effect section. But 'Slow +20% when barrier is struck.' is not intuitive to someone not already familiar with a lot of how the game phrases things. If you showed that to a completely new player, how do they know exactly what that means? Does it mean it slows you down when something hits the barrier, meaning it's a drawback to using the ability? What does 'Slow' even mean in this case? It means they move more slowly, right? So they couldn't catch up to you if you were running?

Contrast that with:

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Creates a barrier against many knockback or draw-in effects, allowing you to remain in place and continue actions uninterrupted. In addition, if an opponent physically strikes the barrier, they will be momentarily disoriented; all their attacks will be slowed by 20% until they recover.
Duration: barrier lasts 6s; effect applied to opponent lasts for 15s.
Notes: The 'Slow' debuff does not affect movement speed, only attack speed. Barrier must be struck physically to apply Slow; magic-based attacks do not count.

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More verbose? Yes. Clearer and presumably easier for a newcomer to understand? Also yes. Hence why I think it might not be bad to have a key you can press to view an 'expanded' tooltip or something...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Black_Wing

I would thumb this up but.....it's Tiny Toon Adventures, not Animaniacs.

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They're tiny lalafells,
Their moral sense never gels,
They'll wave their cheerful farewells
As they stab you in the knee!

...wait, that's not how the song goes. Never mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Black_Wing

I would thumb this up but.....it's Tiny Toon Adventures, not Animaniacs.

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Thanks for the correction. Im embarrassed lol. I was thinking of Plucky but I donno why memories of Animanics got mashed along with it.

MCH main here. It depends on class really. AoE ain't that great on MCH to start with.

My rotation on mob pulls mainly consists of Bioblaster, Flamethrower, Ricochet and Auto crossbow. Bioblaster is up basically every 20 seconds. I always keep that up. Flamethrower you can only use once per mob pull because the pulls will be dead before the 1 minute timer. Ricochet i spam in between and Crossbow i use when my heat gauge is up.

However on the last mob pull or split between both i do go through single target rotations to get my battery gauge up all the way and heat gauge. This is mainly done when everything is on c/d or i weave them in between AoE's. It's so i can start all the bosses with everything up and i can burst it in the beginning.

I don't bother with spreadshot because most pulls done are dead within 30 seconds. And depending on how big the pull is my single target rotations will deal more DMG than AoE overall. (Usually 3 mobs or less).

OP states " Explain to DPS that on about 3 targets, it'd be better to do AOEs". This is wrong. It's better to do single target rotations on very small pulls consisting of 3 or less because you can burst down them faster then using some weak AoE skills. Single target rotations of course have higher DMG potency than AoE.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

I use trusts to farm the dungeon glam while I do laundry. I don't even cast anything. I just stand there and move from mob pack to mob pack until its done. Usually about 25-30. Something is really wrong if you're in a dungeon of four real people and it takes 35minutes.

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Yep, that's indeed the case, but not impossible.
I've probably had more terrible players in any ex/savage pug than I had in dungeons for about 6 months now but I also remember things like a ninja in amaurot that did less dps than you would do at level 60, it certainly can happen that you get players who are actually worse than bots.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

I use trusts to farm the dungeon glam while I do laundry. I don't even cast anything. I just stand there and move from mob pack to mob pack until its done. Usually about 25-30. Something is really wrong if you're in a dungeon of four real people and it takes 35minutes.

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I'm not disagreeing, and I have already stated why I handle Trusts the way I do. No regrets. However, 35 minutes with random people is on the fringe of what my patience can handle before I begin my profanity laden commentary outside the game, unless it's already going poorly. 35 minutes isn't amazing but I also wouldn't consider it unreasonable with random people, especially if they are new. Going beyond that to 40-45, maybe longer though? You can bet I'm not enjoying myself at all. But, as a Mentor, I feel as if it is my duty to stick something out until the end. I might not be happy about it, but I will usually stay if I know a dungeon is going to be cleared eventually. If it is going nowhere, and my patience is already on thin ice, I have no issue with bowing out. Thankfully this isn't something I encounter too often.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

I feel like there should be some forced 'Class Certification' every 10 levels so you will have no excuse to not understand basic concepts.

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*nods*

The current role trainer* should be expanded on to do precisely that. It should be you cannot queue for certain dungeons unless you have proven yourself capable of doing them. I'm not talking about 99% percentile performance stuff. Just basic knowledge like when to use a cooldown, when to AoE, etc...


*(pulling a blank on their name.Sorry.)

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

OP states " Explain to DPS that on about 3 targets, it'd be better to do AOEs". This is wrong. It's better to do single target rotations on very small pulls consisting of 3 or less because you can burst down them faster then using some weak AoE skills. Single target rotations of course have higher DMG potency than AoE.

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Actually, the OP is correct. It is a gain for every job to AoE at three or more mobs, and a gain for tanks, AST, SCH, BRD and DNC to AoE at just two. In a two target scenario for tanks. they will use their single target "finisher" (Fell Cleave, Gnashing Fang and etc) to dump their gauge.

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Originally Posted by Hycinthus

As a former trainer for new joiners in my company, I wholeheartedly support this form of "certification". We cannot take anything for granted.

The game definitely need some form of:
1) Newbie training
2) Knowledge Check of the Newbie Training
3) Refresher Course
4) Certification
5) Re-certification (long term)

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So, basically, you want to turn this game into a non-paying internship with a training regimen that would make most computer consultants livid at the waste of their time.

Note that your 5 steps would be required for every. single. job. in. the. game.

Now tell me that this is going to be "fun".

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

So, basically, you want to turn this game into a non-paying internship with a training regimen that would make most computer consultants livid at the waste of their time.

Note that your 5 steps would be required for every. single. job. in. the. game.

Now tell me that this is going to be "fun".

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I probably wouldn't tolerate that amount of red tape at my actual job, let alone a game I'm paying monthly to play. Wasting everyone's time to deal with an issue that involves a handful of people is exactly the way someone in a management position would address this problem, and it always galls me.

This game's easy, so the player base is going to be casual; which means the occasional slow run. No ones stopping anyone from starting a FC and setting up a Network of static groups with an extensive "certification" process, but this doesn't belong anywhere near the Duty Finder.

Here is how you fix it : extend the trust system to every single dungeon in the game.
For sure you'd still get a few bad apples but I think that a large portion of the people who show no desire for self-improvement are probably not interested in the MMO aspect of the game.

They added the hall of the novice to teach the basics, and even then people were not doing the basics.
If people don't want to learn, they'll never learn, no matter how much training they have.
That's also why even the easy solo instances have a 'very easy' difficulty option now. People don't even want to try learning the patterns of those easy encounters.
If they want to learn, they have plenty of tools at their disposal (Google/Reddit/forums/in-game chat/skill tooltips...)