Is their a DPS job, thats perfect that way it is?

As we approach 90, is there any DPS job currently fine the way it is without adding more fluff?

A lot, actually.

BLM has little improvements to do, it's actually one of the best designed jobs.
DRG doesn't need much improvement, what I see the most is that claw&fang buff needs to be longer.
SAM feels very nice to play, there's some problems with the stacks and Double Midare timing (You need to be carefull and delay your Meikyo Shisui to be always lined with Tsubame gaeshi)
MCH needs a bit more depth, but it's a request from the community the job works fine. There's also Hypercharge and latencies issues, it needs a short clean-up but IMO, it's fine. Flamethrower and Wildfire falls in the "depth" problems.
SMN is a massive joke in my opinion. The pets, the disconnected rotation, it needs a massive rework. And you need to start from the pet.
RDM seems fine, the jobs could get a little more depth but it works just fine since Stormblood.

I can't speak for MNK, BRD, DNC and NIN.

The rest is about the ranged role as a whole, it works, as long as a car can get you from point A to point B within a reasonnable amount of time, it's functionnal and perfect for the current needs. Same principle for ranged, it's a wish that more is added to MCH/DNC/BRD but it won't kill the job if they don't.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I can't speak for [...] BRD, [...] and NIN.

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You've really hit the nail on the head with the ones you addressed, so lemme see if I can't help do the same with these two.

BRD is... not in a good spot.
It's in an awkward spot where even when played perfectly it's still bleeding DPS and has procs bumping into each other like a car pileup. Also, if I remember right bard songs don't stack with each other so having more than 1 bard in a party leads to other messes.

Nin is in a very good place.
Arguably in one of the best places it's ever been. The job is much more fluid and capable than in past expacs and the jutsu system at its core is waaaaay more fun and fulfilling to use now that it's on the GCD.

Black Mage is the best designed job, I don't even main it, it's just damn near perfect in both design and execution with plenty of optimization quirks to master.

I would say Dragoon is closely behind, aside from the aforementioned Fang and Claw/Wheeling Thrust timers, which I feel should just be worked into standard combos instead of being timed buffs, the job flow just feels great and looks crazy cool to boot.

I also really enjoy Ninja after the 5.1 rework, though I do lament the loss of the old playstyle, I think the current one is very solid and it feels good to be firing off more mudra than ever before.

BLM has got basically everything it could possibly need to the point where I'm not sure what they'll do for it in 6.0.
DRG is close but it needs it's AOE combo to refresh disembowel.
SAM is similar but it needs some tweaks to Tsubame gaeshi so it isn't quite so strict in its looping.
The ranged role as a whole is fine in terms of how they play, their real issue is whether the penalty to their own damage they need to take is too big or not.

MNK is still probably the DPS that needs the most work since the 5.4 "Rework" was just trying to turn the busted mess it has been for the entire expansion into something that isn't absolutely miserable to play. There's less annoyance from Down For the Counts, but it still doesn't have a mechanic you actually engage with meaningfully and it still has an excess of skills that are awkward or pointless two expansions after the devs said they wanted to remove those from the game. Its job identity is still in shambles after they gave the title of Greedy melee DPS to Samurai in SB. Its two big issues for the last three expansions has been both a lack of developer vision on how to expand on the jobs concepts and a fundamental misunderstandings on what the players want from the job. They really need to think hard on what they actually want Monk and what its players wants from it moving forward and make substantial changes to reflect that.

I am actually kind of not looking forward to what they'll rip out of some jobs to make space for "new"/rebranded abilities on the path to 90 (not to mention how it'll mess up rotations when 80 becomes yet another sync point).

To me you can break it down into tiers (all of this is IMO):

Perfection:

Black Mage- I honestly am scared of what the next expansion brings for Black Mage. It is without a doubt one of the best designed jobs the devteam has ever produced, right up there with Stormblood Bard and Paladin, and current Gunbreaker. It's got that rare trait of being easy to learn, hard to master, that nails it both from a casual perspective and a hardcore players perspective, all while also being true to the job fantasy. In the hands of a master player it can be as mobile as any other caster while bringing damage in a way no other job can. I can't see how anything else could be added to it's rotation without massively messing it up.

Almost perfection:

Samurai and Dragoon- A few little frustrations on the rotations of both jobs stop each job from reaching Black Mage level Nirvana, but they are so close that I can't find fault in them. Both nail there job fantasy and are an absolute blast to play.

Good starting points for more:

Red Mage, Machinist, Ninja, Dancer, Monk- All of these jobs to me are at a level where the rotation is in a perfect place for some new stuff to be added to expand on its current mechanics to really spice up the job for the upper level player. Be it adding a DoT to the rotation (would love to see this on Red Mage or Dancer), or maybe a new consistent buff to keep monitoring(once again on red mage or Machinist here, to really amp up there damage), or an existing function to be expanded upon (red mage's melee combo, dancers espirit gauge, Monk's chakra system), all of them in some way have a great basic core to work off, but could use something a bit more for upper level players to really flex on and sink there teeth into. Monk was a late add to this, it's current rework was needed, but it did leave the job feeling pretty bare, and I personally feel the Chakra system could be where they sink some time into.

Just a mess:

Summoner and Bard: It saddens me because coming out of Stormblood I felt these were two of the best jobs in the DPS category in terms of playability, and were also my two favorite to play. But Shadowbringers put them through the ringer. Thank god for Black Mage and Gunbreaker, or I honestly would have had a very negative perception about the game overall. Both jobs are really a mess but in two different ways, both centered around an identity issue that walks too many lines.

For Bard the core rotation is absolutely fine, but the execution of it's extra mechanics along with the meeting the job fantasy is a total mess. A job that's whole identity is based around supporting your allies, and I would say outside of MCH, BLM and SAM, every other job in the game feels far more supportive than Bard due to its nearly non-existent support kit, especially when compared to it's previous iterations. Add in issues with missed procs, the terrible application and downtime of Army's Peon/Muse, and the awful timing and alignment of Apex Arrow (and finally the dismal state of Ranged DPS damage overall), and you got a job that went from one of the most loved to now is one of the least played in Savage. There is so much to work on here, and I eagerly wait to see how the devs handle it. The job doesn't need a top down rework like Monk did and Summoner does, but it does need to have multiple parts of it's kit and mechanics worked on to both fit better and add onto it's bare options.

Summoner on the other hand does need a full reworking, and part of the issue is Summoner players are split on how they want it to happen. Some want the pet completely gone, some want dots to be gone, some want the pet reworked entirely, some want Aetherflow to go (and a very small amount don't like the Demi-summons, but we don't talk about them). Summoner's damage and meta placement is more then fine, hell if anything even after several nerfs it's still a monster, but the issue is most raiders only play it because it's a monster. Take away its obscene damage output on top of mobility and support and most save the die hards would immediately drop the job in favor of Red or Black Mage. Putting up with the Egi and Demi's that ghost moves and bleed damage, on top of an opener that even post rework requires you to play flight of the bumble bee while every other dps plays twinkle twinkle little star, dealing with multiple job mechanics that do not work in harmony, all on top of the absolute strictest DPS rotation in the game only feels worth if you are bringing the damage. I personally am on the train of removing Egi's completely from the top level rotation, turning them into lower level stand ins for the Demi's so that Summoners leveling experience fits better. Then merging Bahamut with Dreadwyrm trance so it functions similar to Pheonix and Firebird trance, along with finally making it so that the Demi's no longer follow you around and instead stay in the spot you summoned them.

Ninja is pretty great as it is—there are some tweaks that I'd like to see, but none of them are necessary.

More generally, I really hope the next expansion doesn't increase the number of buttons for classes—adding new abilities is fine, but old ones then need to be replaced or consolidated.

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Originally Posted by Rika007

Summoner on the other hand does need a full reworking, and part of the issue is Summoner players are split on how they want it to happen. Some want the pet completely gone, some want dots to be gone, some want the pet reworked entirely, some want Aetherflow to go (and a very small amount don't like the Demi-summons, but we don't talk about them). Summoner's damage and meta placement is more then fine, hell if anything even after several nerfs it's still a monster, but the issue is most raiders only play it because it's a monster. Take away its obscene damage output on top of mobility and support and most save the die hards would immediately drop the job in favor of Red or Black Mage. Putting up with the Egi and Demi's that ghost moves and bleed damage, on top of an opener that even post rework requires you to play flight of the bumble bee while every other dps plays twinkle twinkle little star, dealing with multiple job mechanics that do not work in harmony, all on top of the absolute strictest DPS rotation in the game only feels worth if you are bringing the damage. I personally am on the train of removing Egi's completely from the top level rotation, turning them into lower level stand ins for the Demi's so that Summoners leveling experience fits better. Then merging Bahamut with Dreadwyrm trance so it functions similar to Pheonix and Firebird trance, along with finally making it so that the Demi's no longer follow you around and instead stay in the spot you summoned them.

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What would you have them doing in-between trances? Personally i feel like if they made every one of your regular summons a demi it would diminish the oomf of bahaumut and phoenix. Unless you mean they should just use the demi way of attacking for egi's as well then that could work.

I feel like dancer is amazing with where it is and could use just a few extra things like sabre dance extending your flourishes. Dragoon and ninja also feel amazing to play and really nail down.

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

Ninja is pretty great as it is—there are some tweaks that I'd like to see, but none of them are necessary.

More generally, I really hope the next expansion doesn't increase the number of buttons for classes—adding new abilities is fine, but old ones then need to be replaced or consolidated.

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Some jobs have plenty of space for new buttons. My machinist bars feel practically empty compared to other jobs.

They don't all need to be exactly the same, but I feel they should be aiming for all the jobs to have a similar amount of buttons to press.

BLM for sure. It's the only job that didn't get impacted negatively by the ability trim, and is one of the only jobs that has kept its identity and complexity intact.

Compare that to MCH, where they threw away the "support dps that's hard to learn but easy to master" identity in favor of "the job that people flock to, to learn how to raid", eliminating depth, optimization and skill expression and as a result, alienating the old core playerbase. (Though, this also applies to BRD as well tbh).

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Some jobs have plenty of space for new buttons. My machinist bars feel practically empty compared to other jobs.

They don't all need to be exactly the same, but I feel they should be aiming for all the jobs to have a similar amount of buttons to press.

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I'm not sure about it. The number of buttons itself doesn't mean anything. Just look at BLM... not a ton of buttons you regulary use but still fairly high complexity if you want to play it well. And I think it's better to have some classes with less buttons while others with more to give players more options.
Less buttons doesn't have to mean a lack of complexity but wether you want to push a ton of buttons less frequently or the same buttons more frequently is a matter of taste and players deserve to have that choice.
There are as many players who don't enjoy AST or GNB for the high amount of buttons as there are players who don't enjoy MCH for the lack of it. And it's good that different classes cater to different preferences.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

Less buttons doesn't have to mean a lack of complexity but wether you want to push a ton of buttons less frequently or the same buttons more frequently is a matter of taste and players deserve to have that choice.
There are as many players who don't enjoy AST or GNB for the high amount of buttons as there are players who don't enjoy MCH for the lack of it. And it's good that different classes cater to different preferences.

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Is it the amount of buttons that puts them off, or is their relative complexity compared to their peers? As you say, buttons don't equal complexity.

I'd like to aim for about 30 per job, but I'm not going to be upset if they don't do that. My main issue is the whole "no more space" argument when some jobs have half a dozen less actions than their peers. I don't know where I'd even put new abilities on PLD, but jobs like MCH have plenty of room for new stuff and the idea that they shouldn't get anything because other jobs are a bit too bloated already is wrong IMHO.

tl;dr I want new stuff for MCH. ;)

Only that AST isn't complex. It's bloated with buttons that have very similiar effects on a similiar cooldown, highly mobile, doesn't have to worry about weaving and has one dot and one filler.
Don't mistake the amount of buttons for complexity.
And that's exactly what's turning many players off: lots of buttons but nothing behind them. At the same time, classes like DNC, RDM, DRG and BLM often get praises for great, fluent and fun gameplay while not having their hotbars bloated with meaningless busywork.
So asking for a specific amount of buttons doesn't make sense, certainly not for all classes across the board. They don't need to add more buttons to add new and fresh mechanics to classes. Just because you want more buttons for your MCH doesn't mean all classes should get the same treatment and streamlined when it comes to a metric that doesn't mean anything in terms of complexity or fun gameplay.

I personally feel, as a DNC main, that DNC is pretty much complete and only needs very little. Beyond giving us a single target version of Saber Dance and "maybe" making Improvisation better to use, IE not requiring the full party, I'm not sure what they could do. Anything extra feels like it might mess it up and I really wouldn't want them to do that.

I should mention that this isn’t some Metahead topic I could not care any less about “Top DPS” as things change too frequent to gauge. I meant play style, the feel, the fun

The point why it’s your main

BLM and Goon have evolved into the right direction while MNK is arguably regressed somehow....

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

Only that AST isn't complex. It's bloated with buttons that have very similiar effects on a similiar cooldown, highly mobile, doesn't have to worry about weaving and has one dot and one filler.
Don't mistake the amount of buttons for complexity.

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No healer is particularly complex anymore, but AST is arguably the most complex among its peers.

I would like to say MNK WAS in a bad spot pre 5.4. The DPS job was a busy work nightmare that had you jumping through hoops like a circus animal to keep your GL stacks up to preform well.

Having said that.

The current MNK is in a good spot heading into 6.0. I feel confident about shedding all the excess baggage that MNK had to carry with it. The new MNK is really potent and MUCH easier to play.

To frame the idea of where I see MNK in 6.0 is lower the button bloat * looks at anatman*, reducing the positional to make MNK less of a mess to play optimally, and improve the class with NEW weaponskills/attacks.

Adding to my thoughts from above:
1. Give MNK skills that actually help. Anatman is useless currently and quite literally the definition of a situational skill. I have removed this from my hotbar all together.

2. I would like to say I hate the positional's for MNK. The idea of positionals on the FASTEST dps job is unessicary personally to me. I am open to the idea of only making Dragon Kick and Bootshine only skills the require positional's. This would make the movement on the job WAY less of a chore. I am also for the idea of removing the potency buffs from postional's and installing something to increase some sort of resource. Something akin to SAM.

3. Lastly.... NEW weaponskills with NEW animations. Dragon Kick, Twin snakes, Snap Punch, Bootshine, True Strike, Demolish are ALL from 2.0. Nothing has changed in nearly 8 years...and they are getting boring and tired skills. Monk needs facelift in the animation department. I would LOVE if they made MNK into a COMBO driven class, perhaps driven from NIN mudra's. Different combinations give a different outcome in the form of a weaponskill.

I'm hopeful now for MNK in 6.0

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

I'm not sure about it. The number of buttons itself doesn't mean anything. Just look at BLM... not a ton of buttons you regulary use but still fairly high complexity if you want to play it well.

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This is where context is very important in your argument, not only is MCH a very simple Job with arguably the least amount of skills in any given job, it’s also a fatty job. Example being it’s Charges 3 each for two skills doing the same damage, 2 Gcds right off the bat, and 2 inconsequential skills in turrets and Wildfire, and lateral Aoes. It’s far from complex but also is in a odd place having so much fat in a bare bones job.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

tl;dr I want new stuff for MCH. ;)

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I’d rather have what it DOES have to be improved before adding on crap. Turrets Have gotten worse from SB, wildfire was central to the gameplay loop but acts as a infrequent “Buff” and all the Ogcd/Gcd don’t really add much but bloat and a facade of speed. Delete some of MCH decaying mechs or improve them before adding more ...assuming they are and 6.0 won’t just have 1 aoe and a aoe turret which is my biggest fear for the job

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

And it's good that different classes cater to different preferences.

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Exactly!!! That´s why i don´t get why so many players want to change this or that class, which they´re probably not even main or just because stupid ACT shows 100 DPS less.

For me, nearly every class is well rounded, because pretty much all of them play different and cater different kind of players. Even when it comes to balancing, it´s overall fine and everything can be done with any class out there.
But that BLM is named so often here, is something i don´t get. Yes, this class is a powerhouse and has some special moves, but most of the skills are just not needed on max level. And if i compare it to monk, who is still in trouble with positionals on certain boss mechanics and is pretty much the melee-counterpart of BLM, than the damage difference is way too big. I would actually prefer a nerf or more useful buttons for BLM since it´s way too powerful unless tons of boss mechanics ruin the casts completely. That said, i wouldn´t say BLM is perfect the way it is.

All the others (monk excluded) seems to be fine. You´ve easier and harder classes, you´ve raid-supports and raw damage dealer and all of them have their specials. Monk is the only class which lost its soul and got pretty much braindead to play. It´s just like a new dragoon just with a 123 instead of a 1234 rotation and off gcd spam. The 5.3 monk was way better and the opener was not overfilled with off gcd´s.

Overall everyone should be able to find 1-3 classes for him/herself. There is no need to bring all classes to a 3 button rotation or change them in favor of "maybe i would play it, if....!". When poeple don´t enjoy 1 of 18?! classes, just live with it and let the others enjoy it as it is.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Snip

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No! Just NO!

1. Maintaining GL was totally easy if you played your rotation well, which is the same you´ve right now. There was nothing busy, the opposite is a fact. You had more movement speed to play positionals or to avoid boss mechanics. You had more time for your opener since you had to stack GL first for less cd´s. The current monk has become busy from begin, you lost your extra movement speed, you´ve to spam more off gcd´s and you lost a 30s window of RoE, instead you´ve to spam this button too and it´s still not enough for certain boss mechanics.
Monk has become easier and more forgivable yes, but only for those who never tried to play monk in the first case or even at all. You can missclick whatever you want, you can die etc... but you won´t lose that much and this is a joke.

2. Monk had skills which helped to maintain GL very easy, those got wrecked and now you want new skills? Come on...

3. POSITIONALS HAVE TO STAY!!!!!! It´s the core of the monk. GL is already gone and you want to make it even more worse? What´s the point in having a 2nd SAM, we already got a SAM! Play SAM instead, it´s not so hard. Melee´s are so boring without real positioning and having a dumb ressource like you´ve on X other chars, is even more boring. Staying behind the boss and playing 123, wow... It´s fine like it is and if you´ve can´t live with "play SAM", then just stay behind the boss as monk. Losing side-positionals is not that big of a deal in kind of damage if you do everything else perfectly.

Really please stop suggestions to change classes completely. You don´t enjoy it that way? Don´t play it!
I don´t come like "Öhhh Paladin is unplayable, smashing 2 buttons 5 times in a row is no fun, please rework!", just because it´s nonsense. There are other classes i enjoy and one of them is definately Monk. All those casual changes and braindead classes are just boring. If others enjoy it, cool, good for you, but stop stop trying to make the last 2,3,4 classes, which actually need a bit more efford than pressing lightning buttons (yeah dancer, looking at you), the same easy to play stuff. This game is already easy enough and the class differences and difficulties are the real enjoyment in its gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

2. I would like to say I hate the positional's for MNK.

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Then don't play Monk. Seriously.

Everything about this particular set of suggestions is terrible and would eliminate what little identity the job still has. Ironically, the removal of GL retroactively made already problematic tools in the kit outright worthless, and the changes made to those tools to account for the removal of GL didn't actually fix how lacking the kit still feels.

Hilariously, one of the things that made positionals a non-factor for stretches of fights got changed as well, because it was pretty obvious that the devs DIDN'T want players to not engage with that aspect of the job.

If you want fewer positionals, play literally any other DPS.

Just because I don't enjoy playing Summoner doesn't mean the job has such crippling flaws that we should just remove their pets from the game. Just because I don't have as much fun with Ninja as I did with Monk prior to Shadowbringers doesn't mean we should add form of GL to it and double the number of positionals it currently has. Not every job has to be forcibly redesigned to cater to people who don't want to engage with the mechanics unique to them in the first place.

I don't think any of the dps jobs are perfect. The general problem with a lot of jobs is that their rotations don't come together until super late in their levelling process. Like I love Samurai at 80. I think samurai at 80 is just about perfect and the tweaks I want made to it are just really minor QoL things. I have literally no idea what they could add or remove from samurai to improve it. But samurai is a terrible job to play below level 62 and I frequently do content that isn't max level so I care about that. Samurai also garbage in frontlines (at least in comparison to nin and drg), another thing I do regularly but that I would not ever take samurai into.

If I had to pick one job though, I would say Machinist. While Machinist never feels quite as good as high level samurai, it's a job I can happily queue for just about anything with and be pretty pleased with my kit no matter the level. If I lose the ldr lottery and roll into sastasha, I will have an instant aoe skill. is 80 machinist fun in exdr? You bet. NRR/Trials into 60/70 content? Still going to be fun (unlike samurai at level 60 where you have to skip kaitening midares to kaiten higenbana and I want to die every time). Good in frontlines? Sure is. Fate grinding? Worked as fine as anything. Same with daily quests. So for being able to queue up for just about anything and be sure that I will have a good time, I give the nod to mch.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

If I had to pick one job though, I would say Machinist. While Machinist never feels quite as good as high level samurai, it's a job I can happily queue for just about anything with and be pretty pleased with my kit no matter the level. If I lose the ldr lottery and roll into sastasha, I will have an instant aoe skill. is 80 machinist fun in exdr? You bet. NRR/Trials into 60/70 content? Still going to be fun (unlike samurai at level 60 where you have to skip kaitening midares to kaiten higenbana and I want to die every time). Good in frontlines? Sure is. Fate grinding? Worked as fine as anything. Same with daily quests. So for being able to queue up for just about anything and be sure that I will have a good time, I give the nod to mch.

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my head hurt reading “MCH” and “Best Job” in the same context. Allow me a few seconds to drain out all my beef to try to make a counter claim real quick.

The context of what it means to be a good job is very flawed, a job in game will never perform as well at 18s 50s and 80s in the same manner nor is it the jobs fault. In this case it is, as MCH doesn’t evolve past 50 at all it gets 1/2 skills and the rest are shallow as water upgrades that don’t add anything new mech wise and are spread very very thin. Takes 10 levels to get your complete heated rotation when in SB it was all at once. The jobs shallowness shouldn’t be Celebrated it should be a striking concern for the jobs stagnation so early in the game. It isn’t “Synch friendly” it just doesn’t have a lot going for it.

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Originally Posted by Rika007

Summoner on the other hand does need a full reworking, and part of the issue is Summoner players are split on how they want it to happen. Some want the pet completely gone, some want dots to be gone, some want the pet reworked entirely, some want Aetherflow to go (and a very small amount don't like the Demi-summons, but we don't talk about them). Summoner's damage and meta placement is more then fine, hell if anything even after several nerfs it's still a monster, but the issue is most raiders only play it because it's a monster. Take away its obscene damage output on top of mobility and support and most save the die hards would immediately drop the job in favor of Red or Black Mage. Putting up with the Egi and Demi's that ghost moves and bleed damage, on top of an opener that even post rework requires you to play flight of the bumble bee while every other dps plays twinkle twinkle little star, dealing with multiple job mechanics that do not work in harmony, all on top of the absolute strictest DPS rotation in the game only feels worth if you are bringing the damage. I personally am on the train of removing Egi's completely from the top level rotation, turning them into lower level stand ins for the Demi's so that Summoners leveling experience fits better. Then merging Bahamut with Dreadwyrm trance so it functions similar to Pheonix and Firebird trance, along with finally making it so that the Demi's no longer follow you around and instead stay in the spot you summoned them.

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I think the actual issue is not the players, but the developers still not having a clue on where the Summoner is going for the past 2 expansions, because they are in this odd middle point as they are no longer a fully functional pet job (and by that I mean with what means to manage a pet), but they didn't go all the way to the opposite direction.

And the root of SMN's problems appears to be actually beyond design, but the game code not allowing a fluid gameplay with pets. Unless 6.0 brings an overhaul in the code structure (what is the likeness of that to happen?) I honestly think that Egis are going to probably be just a cosmetic feature and Summoners will fully embrace Trance rotation, ending just with a big flashy spell in the form of the Demi summon coming and unleashing their signature move.

Same reason why I think Beastmaster will probably come as a Limited Job, because being outside of mainstream content, they can cope with the clunky pet interactibility, especially if it's solo play. Heck, I'd even go further and say that BST pet combat will be a separate feature on its own.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

my head hurt reading “MCH” and “Best Job” in the same context. Allow me a few seconds to drain out all my beef to try to make a counter claim real quick.

The context of what it means to be a good job is very flawed, a job in game will never perform as well at 18s 50s and 80s in the same manner nor is it the jobs fault. In this case it is, as MCH doesn’t evolve past 50 at all it gets 1/2 skills and the rest are shallow as water upgrades that don’t add anything new mech wise and are spread very very thin. Takes 10 levels to get your complete heated rotation when in SB it was all at once. The jobs shallowness shouldn’t be Celebrated it should be a striking concern for the jobs stagnation so early in the game. It isn’t “Synch friendly” it just doesn’t have a lot going for it.

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But wouldn't it being synch friendly make it a good job by design? There's always complaints about how bad jobs feel at lower levels since you do not have your full rotation or QoL higher level buffs to the buttons you have when synched down while MCH gets its main stuff at lower levels. It then gets upgrades to the buttons they already have instead of getting entirely new buttons. Plus even in SB it wasn't really a job that had a bunch of buttons to press nor evolved much. The main thing that happened in SB once you got your heated actions and stablizer is that you stayed between 50 and 100 to optimize your damage and used heat blast to stay between that line until wild fire was up then go into burst with over heating and using wild fire then waiting the 10 seconds to reapply gauss, use stablizer and then repeat the process.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I think the actual issue is not the players, but the developers still not having a clue on where the Summoner is going for the past 2 expansions, because they are in this odd middle point as they are no longer a fully functional pet job (and by that I mean with what means to manage a pet), but they didn't go all the way to the opposite direction.

And the root of SMN's problems appears to be actually beyond design, but the game code not allowing a fluid gameplay with pets. Unless 6.0 brings an overhaul in the code structure (what is the likeness of that to happen?) I honestly think that Egis are going to probably be just a cosmetic feature and Summoners will fully embrace Trance rotation, ending just with a big flashy spell in the form of the Demi summon coming and unleashing their signature move.

Same reason why I think Beastmaster will probably come as a Limited Job, because being outside of mainstream content, they can cope with the clunky pet interactibility, especially if it's solo play. Heck, I'd even go further and say that BST pet combat will be a separate feature on its own.

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I don't think the egis are gonna go to a purely cosmetic feature, they made new ways to have "pets" in shb so i think they will use those new features next expansion. Though i will say SB was the best iteration of smn hands down. Everything just flowed fluidly and was fun to optimize while not being as strict as it is now.

I also think they are gonna just use the old pet coding for beast master going off how they fight in bozja. Having hp bars for the beasts would make sense if they were trying to capture the feeling of 11 BST. Same reason why i think it'll have the colosseum match's as well (as much as i wish it not to be so and for it to be full job but c'est La Vie).

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Originally Posted by Jirah

my head hurt reading “MCH” and “Best Job” in the same context. Allow me a few seconds to drain out all my beef to try to make a counter claim real quick.

The context of what it means to be a good job is very flawed, a job in game will never perform as well at 18s 50s and 80s in the same manner nor is it the jobs fault. In this case it is, as MCH doesn’t evolve past 50 at all it gets 1/2 skills and the rest are shallow as water upgrades that don’t add anything new mech wise and are spread very very thin. Takes 10 levels to get your complete heated rotation when in SB it was all at once. The jobs shallowness shouldn’t be Celebrated it should be a striking concern for the jobs stagnation so early in the game. It isn’t “Synch friendly” it just doesn’t have a lot going for it.

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Naw, I don't agree. To be honest, I generally hate what people consider to be depth and as such, I don't value it and it doesn't enter into my equation. That the mch rotation doesn't evolve past 50 isn't a flaw to me, it's a perk because that means at 50 the kit feels complete to play and that makes content done at level 50 more fun. Contrast this with blm, a job which feels completely different to play under 50, at 50, at 60, and at 70 and for me at least, is a miserable, terrible job under 70 that I want nothing to do with.

And to use my main job, samurai, as a further example, samurai is a dirt easy job. All the way from 1-72 when you get tsubame all you really need to do is make sen, spend kenki when it gets to 35, use your cooldowns more or less as they come up. When you get tsubame, that adds the only real depth to the job, but it's insanely stupid depth. Now you have to figure out, on the fly, how to make use of meikyo, hagakure, and yaten enpi combo to manipulate your gcd to line up a midare exactly when tsubame comes off cooldown. It is an utterly unintuitive mechanic that you would probably never figure out how to use optimally on your own. I know I sure didn't and it wasn't until I read the balance and learned how the manipulation works and then the skill speed break points and even after that it still took about a month of playing it before I was comfortable enough to do it on the fly.

Is this fun? Sure, I find it satisfying to do, it makes me feel clever and rewards me for learning a thing and developing a skill. Do I miss having to do it when I sync under 72? Absolutely not. Not as much as I miss kenki mastery 2 when I end up under 62 which is the lynchpin of the whole job as far as I am concerned. If they deleted tsubame would I miss the depth it brings? No, even if the left the job entirely as is, it would still be my favorite.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Naw, I don't agree. To be honest, I generally hate what people consider to be depth and as such, I don't value it and it doesn't enter into my equation. That the mch rotation doesn't evolve past 50 isn't a flaw to me, it's a perk because that means at 50 the kit feels complete to play and that makes content done at level 50 more fun.

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Which is funny because this has been MNK for pretty much all its lifespan besides the brief moment where TK MNK was a thing (God I miss it). People has been complaining ever since.

I do understand the value of a job being complete under 80, and I would want the devs to fix it 100%, but I don't think sacrificing job design at max level is the way to go for fixing the job design below level 80, there has to be another way. I still stand by having them implement the old state of jobs throughout the expansions. Reimplement HW MCH, Stormblood MNK, ARR Scholar, with all their skills and what not. That would take a lot of work to do, but I still think that would be the best way to do it.

Having jobs built on top of its core and becoming complex and evolving is still better job design than being stagnant, regressing back, or worse, taking out old skills to reimplement them later with a different name (Steel Peak/Tornado Kick, Englightenment/Howling Fist).

DRG and BLM are the only jobs I can confidently say are "finished" or most polished. As they're majorly similar to what they were in Stormblood, which back then both were already held in high esteem for their design and their only changes as of 5.X is some streamlining to make it smoother to play. (i.e. the removal of Heavy Thrust or making Blizzard spells cost 0 MP)

As someone who disagrees heavily with a lot of the directions taken with Shadowbringers in terms of job design, I have a lot to say on this matter. It's obviously impossible to say what mindset the dev team were in whilst deciding the job directions of this expansion, but I felt that they have gotten too cocky with leaning far into poorly implemented accessibility. Too many slots are wasted this expansion with skills that are just AoE/single target variants of already existing skills. I understand it's to make AoE rotations more involving and it may not seem like the biggest problem at face value, but we've seen what doing too much of that does to a job. (cough, Machinist) The tl;dr of this rant is basically, a majority of jobs in 5.X feel like they were designed for how they feel in dungeons first and foremost, with how they perform in other content mostly being an afterthought. Though I am aware that what I've said has already been said, these are my current feelings about the jobs that need the most work right now:

MCH - There are a lot of people that can give you a better educated opinion on why MCH is barren, boring and only feels impactful in dungeons. The job seems like SE should've made this rework far earlier instead of leaving it as a blank slate for all of Shadowbringers. In my opinion, it sort of captures the job design philosophy of 5.X as a microcosm. Too much focus on AoE, too many hit and forget skills that add nothing to the rotation, too easy and doesn't challenge the player enough at higher tiers of skill.
BRD - leaning too far into one identity that no one asked for left it with no identity at all. SE insists that it should be the middle ground of damage and support between DNC and MCH, but it does less damage than both and has near negligible impact with support despite having to work harder than its ranged siblings. Just bring back Foe's 4head.
MNK - Another job that has been talked to death. The most generous thing I can say about the job is that the rework made it possibly better to work with in the future since the devs can no longer lazily churn out Greased Lightning maintenance skills. Said rework has left it as a completely nothing job. Nothing about it is fulfilling and it doesn't even have its own job unique mechanic anymore. All Monks have ever done in the lifespan of the game, is wait. And we're still gonna have to wait. See you guys in 10 years when MNK finally becomes a job.
SMN - Just burn the whole job to the ground and start over. It's a cruel joke of what it used to be from Stormblood.

Honestly, I'm not really sure where there is to go with Black Mage without it being something that changes up the entire rotation (or perhaps expands the ice phase somehow). It's basically perfect right now.

Personally speaking, Summoner needs a complete rework top to bottom. As a RDM main, I like where the job is, but Reprise could be deleted and no one would notice the difference. I don't think I've ever used it in any of the content I've run. Engagement can stay though, I rarely ever bother with Displacement for obvious reasons.

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Originally Posted by ElysiumDragon

Personally speaking, Summoner needs a complete rework top to bottom. As a RDM main, I like where the job is, but Reprise could be deleted and no one would notice the difference. I don't think I've ever used it in any of the content I've run. Engagement can stay though, I rarely ever bother with Displacement for obvious reasons.

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I agree with you wholeheartedly. Summoner hits like a truck and that’s why people play it. SE needs to take summoner back and build it from the ground up. I main summoner and I admit that I enjoy seeing myself mostly top dps but it’s a pretty complex job to play and if you mess up something especially in your 2 minute opener then your dps suffers. Really no recovery. I think egis should become cosmetic and demi primals need to take front and center. FFXVI seems to be focusing on summoners once again and I hope in 6.0 summoner finally gets the love and rework it so desperately needs.

There was a job that was perfect the way it was, MNK... well it was close, now it’s a joke. I see a lot of people trying to give SMN the same treatment, just stop, it plays great, and I’m not referencing the dmg output. It literally plays great at every level of content.

I’d say DNC NIN SMN BLM MCH would be at the top for me I’d put RDM up there but the aoe rotation this cycle is counterintuitive and clunky to me the way they made it backwards from the single target gauge builder.

Opposite end of the spectrum, SAM is horrible to play, it’s the poster child for button bloat.

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Originally Posted by ElysiumDragon

Personally speaking, Summoner needs a complete rework top to bottom. As a RDM main, I like where the job is, but Reprise could be deleted and no one would notice the difference. I don't think I've ever used it in any of the content I've run. Engagement can stay though, I rarely ever bother with Displacement for obvious reasons.

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You should use it more--it's better than the alternative when you have longer movement. You should also not ignore Displacement.

These are part of RDM's skill expression, and knowing when to use and not use them is part of the way to differentiate between a 12k dps RDM and a 20k dps RDM.

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Originally Posted by ElysiumDragon

Personally speaking, Summoner needs a complete rework top to bottom. As a RDM main, I like where the job is, but Reprise could be deleted and no one would notice the difference. I don't think I've ever used it in any of the content I've run. Engagement can stay though, I rarely ever bother with Displacement for obvious reasons.

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Agreed with the Summoner rework but as has already been mentioned there is no good reason to be looking for Reprise to be removed, that's one of the better skills they've added to Red Mage c to help balance it's gauge and adds to it's already impressive mobility for a caster. Displacement is fantastic and should always be used over engagement for better potency and mobility as long as it's safe.

Tbh when it comes to BLM
Beside fluff such as
"Aoe fire3 for dungeon"
Trait [a][b][c] improving small things I'm not sure if there's much they could do.

So currently what could be considered BLM issue (and by issue i mean... Lol annoying thing about the job)

- Fire3 AoE alternative for dungeon (possibly Fire2 getting a trait upgrade)
- Fire1 and Blizz4 being a bit too underwhelming to the point a rotation without these spells is better (but not fun to play around ) something like

When doing B3, your next B4 deals x% more DMG, when doing F3, your next F1 deals y% more DMG (new animation plzzzz)

- B3 and Freeze grant an instant MP tick to avoid half filled mp bar

- manafont clipping reduction and perhaps a small CD reduction

-scath .... People say it could refresh the AF stance but tbh.. we have so many tools already... But sure why not

So in the end... adding something is tricky because anything would disturb the flow of the best designed job. And beside these fluff adjustment not sure what they could add.
A buff to lightning DMG could be nice too. it's the same mech since ARR

So this is just me but sometime I feel we lost a bit of the "I can't move fantasy" I wouldn't mind some sort of very very big spell only castable once per leyline. Something with a ludicrous casting time (like 5-6s).

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Originally Posted by ElysiumDragon

As a RDM main, I like where the job is, but Reprise could be deleted and no one would notice the difference. I don't think I've ever used it in any of the content I've run. Engagement can stay though, I rarely ever bother with Displacement for obvious reasons.

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Everything you've just mentioned differentiates a good RDM from a bad one. A certain website has answered that question about you for me.

Anyway I'd say BLM, RDM and DRK probably have 3 of the best designs atm. MCH has been redesigned well, but is extremely boring.