Why do people bother dodging aoe during trash pulls?

They do no damage. Just stand still and spam your aoe combos

Worst case scenario healer can adjust

Because i dont trust random healers unless i played with them with before veside true 1-4 dont hurt at all but when there are 12-15 of them during a big pull they add up alot..

Beside to many ppl dont know their healer moves even though they are 80 and crowned lol to be trusted

Please tell me you are not serious...

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Originally Posted by AncientWillow

Because i dont trust random healers unless i played with them with before veside true 1-4 dont hurt at all but when there are 12-15 of them during a big pull they add up alot..

Beside to many ppl dont know their healer moves even though they are 80 and crowned lol to be trusted

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If there's 12-15 aoes in 1 wall to wall pull there's something really wrong with the party

Most people dodge the aoes that way the healer doesn't have to waste a gcd on you when they could use it healing the tank who's getting hit by 15 mobs or doing more aoe damage.

The only class that arguably shouldn't be dodging aoes is BLM with ley lines, but even then they should have the common sense to not put them down in melee range

I can aoe just fine on the move, mate.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Please tell me you are not serious...

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They're not. They have a history of trolling. They're not very good at it though.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Most people dodge the aoes that way the healer doesn't have to waste a gcd on you when they could use it healing the tank who's getting hit by 15 mobs or doing more aoe damage.

The only class that arguably shouldn't be dodging aoes is BLM with ley lines, but even then they should have the common sense to not put them down in melee range

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Aoes hit you for maybe 1/5th of your HP in current expert roulettes. This means healers don't have to GCD heal anyone at all standing in aoes that isn't the tank

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Originally Posted by Starflake

Aoes hit you for maybe 1/5th of your HP in current expert roulettes. This means healers don't have to GCD heal anyone at all standing in aoes that isn't the tank

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don't even have to GCD heal the tank either tbh lol

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Originally Posted by Zomkei

don't even have to GCD heal the tank either tbh lol

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You don't. Tanks get hit for a very low amount of damage, especially when mitigating. It is in fact, in almost all cases a gain in DPS to eat the aoes in all classes in favour of getting more damage in.

I mean you can do that but I'm not going to single target heal the DPS during a pull so if the oGCD AoE isn't enough to keep you off the pavement good luck.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

I can aoe just fine on the move, mate.

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I love that about DNC.

Dodging AoE even if it is non-lethal shows you have enough common courtesy to play the game correctly. It has nothing to do with whether or not the healer will adjust to your stupidity, and everything to do with stop being a lazy PoS, and play your job right.

ignore the thread and move on, people

MPK is a notorious troll who starts threads entirely for the sake of seeing people's reactions and strawmanning himself to bait even further

You know what does less damage than a DPS that had to dodge an AoE? A dead DPS.

"Here lieth Mirabelle Weaver, stung to death by an army of wasps trying proving that their stings doth not hurt."

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Dodging AoE even if it is non-lethal shows you have enough common courtesy to play the game correctly. It has nothing to do with whether or not the healer will adjust to your stupidity, and everything to do with stop being a lazy PoS, and play your job right.

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This is simply not true. It's also not playing the game "correctly" either. If I can do 1000 DPS or 2000 DPS I will choose 2000 DPS even though I took an aoe or two to the face that nobody ever has to heal. This is exactly what it's like in Expert. In fact, I'd argue it's much more "correct" to stand in aoes if it means not dying (which you almost certainly won't) and doing the most damage because of it.

When it comes to laziness by the way, I advise you to look up a website I will not type out and check out your own performances. Being, more often than not the player with the lowest amount of buttons pressed per minute and poor uptime overall. Might have a thing or two to learn about productivity yourself ;)

For the same reason I do mechanics. It's fun. Min-maxing every second of the game isn't. Nice try, though.

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Originally Posted by Starflake

When it comes to laziness by the way, I advise you to look up a website I will not type out and check out your own performances. Being, more often than not the player with the lowest amount of buttons pressed per minute and poor uptime overall. Might have a thing or two to learn about productivity yourself ;)

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I wish that website would be taken down already.
What happened to, you know, having fun? Who cares how much damage you do. So tired of people always in a rush in casual content, so boring. This is borderline elitist behavior imo, because then such people will bash at you or even kick you because you don't meet their "standards".

Savage content is probably the only place where I'd accept DPS actually trying to do as much damage as they can.

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Originally Posted by Lumivyory

I wish that website would be taken down already.
What happened to, you know, having fun? Who cares how much damage you do. So tired of people always in a rush in casual content, so boring. This is borderline elitist behavior imo, because then such people will bash at you or even kick you because you don't meet their "standards".

Savage content is probably the only place where I'd accept DPS actually trying to do as much damage as they can.

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I guesss the extra depth that website gives to the speedrunning scene, world firsts, and overall improvement of the community doesn't count. I've never in my seven years of raiding in PF and with statics seen anyone get kicked because of that website. You're just making up a boogeyman. The discord is also full of helpful people and based on it, it has spawned a whole network in The Balance which main purpose it to help other players. Some of you guys need to relax and stop pretending this is all just doom and gloom.

The only elitist stance in all this was this other guy calling people lazy sobs and throwing some hypocrisy on there. Anyway, I'm not here to argue, I just wanted to point out the blatant hypocrisy of that person. Signing off.

Personally, I try not to make the healer's life any harder.

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Originally Posted by MPK

If there's 12-15 aoes in 1 wall to wall pull there's something really wrong with the party

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No, there's something wrong with you if you think that the healer won't be busy with the tank. Just.... don't ever come into one of my parties.

because sometimes an AoE in a dungeon will carry a debuff with it (any of the soul-type enemies that have Silence) and a silenced mage does less damage than a mage that dodged an AoE

Plenty of DPS can AoE while occasionally moving and lose basically no potency. It only might be advisable to take the hit if you're hardcasting when an AoE indicator lands on you; otherwise there's no reason you can't keep up your rotation while moving.

Also, some AoE's stun you or knock you back, which will always be a DPS loss. Unless you know exactly what does what in a complete mess of AoE indicators, you should probably just move.

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Originally Posted by Starflake

This is simply not true. It's also not playing the game "correctly" either. If I can do 1000 DPS or 2000 DPS I will choose 2000 DPS even though I took an aoe or two to the face that nobody ever has to heal. This is exactly what it's like in Expert. In fact, I'd argue it's much more "correct" to stand in aoes if it means not dying (which you almost certainly won't) and doing the most damage because of it.

When it comes to laziness by the way, I advise you to look up a website I will not type out and check out your own performances. Being, more often than not the player with the lowest amount of buttons pressed per minute and poor uptime overall. Might have a thing or two to learn about productivity yourself ;)

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This is entirely erroneous. Bosses just love to attempt to hit players with avoidable AoEs and then follow up with an unavoidable raidwide to finish the players off who ignored or made a mistake during the mechanic; so a regular AoE that was originally non lethal, is actually what ultimately kills the player. An aware healer 'might' save you before the raidwide goes off, but that is a resource they would not have to use if you simply just stepped out of the AoE before the cast finishes. Learning and making a habit out of dodging AoEs only benefits you in the long run if you care at all about playing not only the game correctly, but also your chosen job.

One of the challenges to playing a DPS job is maximizing your uptime along with your damage. There are one of two things that you need to take into consideration here, and that is are you a caster, or do you have abilities that lock you in place. If you do not need to cast or do not have any abilities that lock you in place there is no reason for AoEs to cause downtime because of you dodging them. If you can't learn to do this in dungeons, then don't bother going into content where those AoEs are lethal. And it's not like you have to go into EX, savage, or ultimate for that to happen. Lethal or very hard hitting AoEs can be found in NM raids, alliance raids, and even some dungeons as well. You know, casual stuff?

Even in the case that you are a caster, all of them have methods that give them mobility while keeping the GCD from drifting. If you are not exercising these skills then no, you are not playing the game correctly. Those AoE markers are an indicator that damage is going to happen there, and everything about the game teaches you to not stand in them. There are occasions where it is acceptable to stand in an AoE, but nobody should be making a habit out of it.

I would also choose your words more carefully when making assumptions. When you question someone else's productivity, what actually happens is you put your own into the spotlight. Considering that you are advocating standing in AoEs because you are not good enough to avoid them while maximizing uptime, I already know that your DPS uptime is subpar to another player capable of dodging and damaging simultaneously.

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Originally Posted by Starflake

This is simply not true. It's also not playing the game "correctly" either. If I can do 1000 DPS or 2000 DPS I will choose 2000 DPS even though I took an aoe or two to the face that nobody ever has to heal. This is exactly what it's like in Expert. In fact, I'd argue it's much more "correct" to stand in aoes if it means not dying (which you almost certainly won't) and doing the most damage because of it.

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Fun facts time. Most AoEs in dungeon trash pulls are fairly close range. The classes which need to fight at close range have barely any abilities with cast times and can dodge AoEs while continuing to attack (provided the player is skilled enough to multitask). Meanwhile the classes which would be worst affected by having to dodge AoEs (casters) can fight further away so the AoEs mostly don't hit them. A BLM taking an occasional targeted AoE during a trash pull is fine. A NIN eating all the trash AoEs in Heroes' Gauntlet is not.

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Originally Posted by Starflake

I guesss the extra depth that website gives to the speedrunning scene, world firsts, and overall improvement of the community doesn't count. I've never in my seven years of raiding in PF and with statics seen anyone get kicked because of that website.

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We're talking about trash pulls in dungeons though, not endgame raids. There's almost no dungeon runs on that website. I have one recorded run and Gemina has two. The people who would care to use external tools for improving their skills are already good enough to pass any dungeon run with flying colors.

Because I can dodge AOE keep my DPS up and then the Healer can spend more time DPS, so everything dies faster.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

This is entirely erroneous. Bosses just love to attempt to hit players with avoidable AoEs and then follow up with an unavoidable raidwide to finish the players off who ignored or made a mistake during the mechanic; so a regular AoE that was originally non lethal, is actually what ultimately kills the player. An aware healer 'might' save you before the raidwide goes off, but that is a resource they would not have to use if you simply just stepped out of the AoE before the cast finishes. Learning and making a habit out of dodging AoEs only benefits you in the long run if you care at all about playing not only the game correctly, but also your chosen job.

One of the challenges to playing a DPS job is maximizing your uptime along with your damage. There are one of two things that you need to take into consideration here, and that is are you a caster, or do you have abilities that lock you in place. If you do not need to cast or do not have any abilities that lock you in place there is no reason for AoEs to cause downtime because of you dodging them. If you can't learn to do this in dungeons, then don't bother going into content where those AoEs are lethal. And it's not like you have to go into EX, savage, or ultimate for that to happen. Lethal or very hard hitting AoEs can be found in NM raids, alliance raids, and even some dungeons as well. You know, casual stuff?

Even in the case that you are a caster, all of them have methods that give them mobility while keeping the GCD from drifting. If you are not exercising these skills then no, you are not playing the game correctly. Those AoE markers are an indicator that damage is going to happen there, and everything about the game teaches you to not stand in them. There are occasions where it is acceptable to stand in an AoE, but nobody should be making a habit out of it.

I would also choose your words more carefully when making assumptions. When you question someone else's productivity, what actually happens is you put your own into the spotlight. Considering that you are advocating standing in AoEs because you are not good enough to avoid them while maximizing uptime, I already know that your DPS uptime is subpar to another player capable of dodging and damaging simultaneously.

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We're strictly talking about trash pulls in dungeons here. Besides, in real raids failing to dodge an aoe results in a damage down which is bad for your numbers.

Getting hit as a dps in any of our current expert dungeons will not negatively impact anyone at all. The healers don't even need to heal you because you would have your HP completely regenerated once you get to the next set of trash.

Besides, if the healer were any good they wouldn't be that busy with the tank, they would be spamming their aoe skills too and be using their OGCDs only to heal the tank (this includes raid wide ogcd heals such as assize, star, whispering dawn, and that fey blessing).

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Originally Posted by Starflake

I guesss the extra depth that website gives to the speedrunning scene, world firsts, and overall improvement of the community doesn't count. I've never in my seven years of raiding in PF and with statics seen anyone get kicked because of that website.

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Speedrunning is either boring or extremely nerve-wrecking, especially as a tank. Imo anyway.
And where exactly did the community improve? So many people are now all about speedrunning things and doing as much damage as possible while ignoring AoEs and mechanics. And for what? To be able to brag about their stats on that website?
Keep it to your raiding and out of casual content.
Also your "impressive" stats on that website don't make you a better player than the rest but then you yourself told another player to "learn about productivity" as if you somehow are above them and they should "git gud". Oh yes, great and nice community we've got here.

Yeah for the Hero's Gauntlet I'll absolutely just stand in the AoEs on trash pulls. They're absolutely pathetic damage-wise and I can just bloodbath/second wind.

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Originally Posted by MPK

We're strictly talking about trash pulls in dungeons here. Besides, in real raids failing to dodge an aoe results in a damage down which is bad for your numbers.

Getting hit as a dps in any of our current expert dungeons will not negatively impact anyone at all. The healers don't even need to heal you because you would have your HP completely regenerated once you get to the next set of trash.

Besides, if the healer were any good they wouldn't be that busy with the tank, they would be spamming their aoe skills too and be using their OGCDs only to heal the tank (this includes raid wide ogcd heals such as assize, star, whispering dawn, and that fey blessing).

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It's about principle and developing good habits. The content being a dungeon does not exempt that no matter how minimal the impact. Don't fall back on this excuse and then turn around and get upset if you find an ice mage in your dungeon group. In your own words, you have literally implied that you're banking on your healer having multitasking skills so you don't have to use them yourself. How is that considerate or courteous gameplay at all?

Gameplay in dungeons translates into gameplay in harder content. If I have a choice between two players to take with me into harder duties, and my choices are the two DPS players in my dungeon group; which one do you think I am going to pick between the one who cares to avoid unnecessary damage, and the one standing in all the AoEs? If the answer is: "I'm taking the one who does the most DPS." I might need to remind you that the DPS of an incapacitated player is zero.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

It's about principle and developing good habits. The content being a dungeon does not exempt that no matter how minimal the impact. Don't fall back on this excuse and then turn around and get upset if you find an ice mage in your dungeon group. In your own words, you have literally implied that you're banking on your healer having multitasking skills so you don't have to use them yourself. How is that considerate or courteous gameplay at all?

Gameplay in dungeons translates into gameplay in harder content. If I have a choice between two players to take with me into harder duties, and my choices are the two DPS players in my dungeon group; which one do you think I am going to pick between the one who cares to avoid unnecessary damage, and the one standing in all the AoEs? If the answer is: "I'm taking the one who does the most DPS." I might need to remind you that the DPS of an incapacitated player is zero.

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Yes. Playing optimally is part of developing good habits. Knowing limits on what your class can do is very important. Playing safe and doing the bare minimum is not called developing good habits. The answer to "which one do you think I am going to pick between the one who cares to avoid unnecessary damage, and the one standing in all the AoEs?" is that I would take the DPS that knows how much damage the aoe would do and survive while doing optimal dps.

Do note that in real content taking an aoe will usually result in a damage down, but that's not the point. The point is knowing what you can get away with in a fight.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

Yeah for the Hero's Gauntlet I'll absolutely just stand in the AoEs on trash pulls. They're absolutely pathetic damage-wise and I can just bloodbath/second wind.

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I thought the same thing in Hero's Gauntlet when using TCJ on my NIN. Second wind and Bloodbath would have quickly got me back up the full.... If I didn't die. Unfortunately, if you want to use TCJ that ends with Doton, you have the be in the middle of the pack. In my defense, I did not intend to eat the AoEs. I misjudged the timing and I got hit by x3 trash AoE while moving out of them after placing Doton.

I will also point out that if you have access to Bloodbath and Second Wind, that means you are playing a melee job. You literally have it the easiest when it comes to maximizing damage and uptime during dungeons while avoiding bad.

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Originally Posted by MPK

Yes. Playing optimally is part of developing good habits. Knowing limits on what your class can do is very important. Playing safe and doing the bare minimum is not called developing good habits. The answer to "which one do you think I am going to pick between the one who cares to avoid unnecessary damage, and the one standing in all the AoEs?" is that I would take the DPS that knows how much damage the aoe would do and survive while doing optimal dps.

Do note that in real content taking an aoe will usually result in a damage down, but that's not the point. The point is knowing what you can get away with in a fight.

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There is no way for you know that the DPS player who stands in bad knows what their limits are. They may simply not care to move out of AoEs and expect to get topped off from the healers. And where did, "the bare minimum" argument come from? It isn't about playing safe; it's about playing smart.

Again, there are exceptions. A player knowing which AoEs are acceptable to stand in to maintain uptime is an exception, not the rule. Players for the most part should be actively avoiding bad, and practice doing so while maintaining their rotations. Get good at doing it dungeons, so that way you're not holding your group back when yo DO go into harder content.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

There is no way for you know that the DPS player who stands in bad knows what their limits are. They may simply not care to move out of AoEs and expect to get topped off from the healers. And where did, "the bare minimum" argument come from? It isn't about playing safe; it's about playing smart.

Again, there are exceptions. A player knowing which AoEs are acceptable to stand in to maintain uptime is an exception, not the rule. Players for the most part should be actively avoiding bad, and practice doing so while maintaining their rotations. Get good at doing it dungeons, so that way you're not holding your group back when yo DO go into harder content.

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Sounds like to me that new players learning the game is the exception not regular players who already hit max level

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Originally Posted by MPK

Sounds like to me that new players learning the game is the exception not regular players who already hit max level

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Exceptions can always be made for new players who are learning. The same exceptions do not apply to max level players in an expert dungeon who should not only know how to play their jobs, but also avoid the telegraphs that have been taught to them that they are bad as early as day 1. You basically just pointed this out yourself.

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Originally Posted by MPK

They do no damage. Just stand still and spam your aoe combos

Worst case scenario healer can adjust

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Well as a healer main, if you stand in all the AoEs all the time, I’m not healing your dumb butt unless you’re the tank. I don’t “adjust” for stupidity. And I Holy and dps just fine while multitasking.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I thought the same thing in Hero's Gauntlet when using TCJ on my NIN. Second wind and Bloodbath would have quickly got me back up the full.... If I didn't die. Unfortunately, if you want to use TCJ that ends with Doton, you have the be in the middle of the pack. In my defense, I did not intend to eat the AoEs. I misjudged the timing and I got hit by x3 trash AoE while moving out of them after placing Doton.

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Well I dunno which trash AoEs those were because I just tested things with trusts and at ilvl 460 on my SAM the max damage I saw from an AoE was 27k. At that ilevel I had 95k HP so even assuming the worst conditions in terms of level I don't see how they could've done enough damage from 3 AoEs unless you were already wounded. Synced to ilvl 500 you could even survive 4. Going back in at an ilvl 460 BLM their attacks did only a small amount more.

Not that I'd suggest eating 3 AoEs. Max I've ever been fine with is 2 and it's pretty difficult to get 3 stacked AoEs even pulling everything in that dungeon. But the numbers don't line up.

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Originally Posted by MPK

They do no damage. Just stand still and spam your aoe combos

Worst case scenario healer can adjust

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Because I'm not lazy and would prefer the healer to focus more on DPSing over healing my selfish posterior. Like the melee don't have positionals in their AoE rotation (aiming aside), so it doesn't matter if I wiggle around to avoid AoE's.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Because I'm not lazy and would prefer the healer to focus more on DPSing over healing my selfish posterior. Like the melee don't have positionals in their AoE rotation (aiming aside), so it doesn't matter if I wiggle around to avoid AoE's.

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They don't need to heal you because unless you're actively trying to get yourself killed or you're not using your aoe combos in min ilevel, dying to trash is very very difficult to do.