Standard : Legacy movement toggle support

There are jobs that work better in legacy while others work better in standard. Melee specially work better in Standard movement. While ranged jobs work better in legacy. Now, this is just from my personal experience, but I'm sure the pro QA playtesters at Square-Enix can verify this as well, specially for jobs like monk which need to position every skill.

Suggestion:

• Add Standard/Legacy toggle shorcut in Keybinds
• Add Standard/Legacy toggle using macros: /smovement /lmovement

Thank you for your time, any input appreciated.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Melee specially work better in Standard movement.

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In what way is standard better for melee jobs? Auto-attacks don't care about facing, and auto-face-target handles facing for actions while on the move. If anything, I'd argue that standard is even more detrimental for melee jobs because (a) backpedaling out of a PBAoE is bad for anyone and (b) auto-face-target will cause you to change direction back into the PBAoE you're trying to dodge.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

In what way is standard better for melee jobs? Auto-attacks don't care about facing, and auto-face-target handles facing for actions while on the move. If anything, I'd argue that standard is even more detrimental for melee jobs because (a) backpedaling out of a PBAoE is bad for anyone and (b) auto-face-target will cause you to change direction back into the PBAoE you're trying to dodge.

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That's your personal experience.
As I stated, in my personal experience, standard movement setting seems to work better on melee, specially on monk where going from back to side constantly requires a precise "arch;" specially visually. Both modes of movement exist for a reason, it's like in sports, some players prefer gloves while others don't.

Ultimately this suggestion isn't about which one is better, it's about preference, as all User Interface settings are about.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

That's your personal experience.
As I stated, in my personal experience, standard movement setting seems to work better on melee, specially on monk where going from back to side constantly requires a precise "arch;" specially visually. Both modes of movement exist for a reason, it's like in sports, some players prefer gloves while others don't.

Ultimately this suggestion isn't about which one is better, it's about preference, as all User Interface settings are about.

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You don't need to move in an arc to move around a mob as melee, since the hitboxes don't have collision and your personal facing doesn't matter. It's actually more inefficient to do so since a straight line is more efficient and at the extreme it's entirely possible to do positionals with minimal movement via tiny little side steps back and forth at the transition. The addition of backward movement being hamstrung is an even bigger downside to it, though.

Oh, and I think this option exists in a form by keeping Legacy movement enabled and locking onto your target. I forget which keystroke does this, however, since I never use it. I occasionally accidentally lock onto the summoning bell and it takes me a while to figure out how to unlock from it.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

Oh, and I think this option exists in a form by keeping Legacy movement enabled and locking onto your target. I forget which keystroke does this, however, since I never use it. I occasionally accidentally lock onto the summoning bell and it takes me a while to figure out how to unlock from it.

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By default it's numpad5. If you need help remembering, you can think of it as the center of the numpad, or as the button in the middle of the arrows.

Legacy has been nothing but an improvement for all classes.
I suppose this is my opinion but it's one of the tips I give to starting novices who ask for tips.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

You don't need to move in an arc to move around a mob as melee, since the hitboxes don't have collision and your personal facing doesn't matter. It's actually more inefficient to do so since a straight line is more efficient and at the extreme it's entirely possible to do positionals with minimal movement via tiny little side steps back and forth at the transition. The addition of backward movement being hamstrung is an even bigger downside to it, though.

Oh, and I think this option exists in a form by keeping Legacy movement enabled and locking onto your target. I forget which keystroke does this, however, since I never use it. I occasionally accidentally lock onto the summoning bell and it takes me a while to figure out how to unlock from it.

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Yes I know the corner trick between rear and flank, but if only melee life was that simple, we'd be in heaven. Talk to me about tanks that dance around, who have to avoid aoes. Talk to me about bosses that turn around to throw an aoe to the healer. Talk to me about constant aoes targeting melee.

Yeah, that long arch comes into play in those situations, you're fighting a mobile enemy, not a striking dummy.
Furthermore, yes, I know about the lock on option; and while it's useful you end up make it even harder to move around to avoid aoes correctly. It's actually fun to use though, specially on controller, but it's definitely not the best solution on keyboard and mouse.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Legacy has been nothing but an improvement for all classes.
I suppose this is my opinion but it's one of the tips I give to starting novices who ask for tips.

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You call it potatoe I call it potatoh. I harken back to my analogy of sports athletes who use gloves and those who don't, both able to compete at high level. Another example is controller players who are known to be top savage raiders, right up there with keyboard + mouse players. It's all personal preference.

Some of us just happen to be good at both and want to take advantage of both options. This also happens in real life sports with righties who can also be lefties.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Yes I know the corner trick between rear and flank, but if only melee life was that simple, we'd be in heaven. Talk to me about tanks that dance around, who have to avoid aoes. Talk to me about bosses that turn around to throw an aoe to the healer. Talk to me about constant aoes targeting melee.

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Huh? I did. Hitboxes don't have collision and personal facing is irrelevant. Just move in a straight line to where you need to be and continue as normal. You've also so far failed to explain how avoiding AoE is harder to do while using Legacy movement and explain how not being able to walk backward at full speed while using Standard movement makes avoiding AoEs easier.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

Huh? I did. Hitboxes don't have collision and personal facing is irrelevant. Just move in a straight line to where you need to be and continue as normal. You've also so far failed to explain how avoiding AoE is harder to do while using Legacy movement and explain how not being able to walk backward at full speed while using Standard movement makes avoiding AoEs easier.

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You're changing the context.
You were refuting the having to move in archs and that you only need to stay at bosse's corner to move between rear and flank.
I brought up the fact that you do need to move in archs in certain situations such as boss moving around, tank moving around, aoes, and other situations.

As for the moving away from aoe in standard movement. Ask a similar question to controller users having to swap around xcross bar to execute skills. It's a matter of skill, some people are able to take advantage of certain settings while overcoming their shortcomings; a foreign concept to you it seems.

*dusts off his Razer Tartarus Pro*

No you don't ever have to move in an arc. Standard movement forces you into it in some situations, but it is by no means necessary in any case. I'll say it again, just move in a straight line to where you need to be. That's it. I also never once said you only have to stay at the transition to be able to do positionals. If you think I did then you need a lesson in reading comprehension.

I'm ignoring your bad attempts at humble bragging about the skill needed to use legacy because it's just a humble brag and either Legacy is easier or harder, not both.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

You're changing the context.

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No, you're ignoring the context.

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You were refuting the having to move in archs and that you only need to stay at bosse's corner to move between rear and flank.
I brought up the fact that you do need to move in archs in certain situations such as boss moving around, tank moving around, aoes, and other situations.

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The fastest way to change positionals is a straight path perpendicular to the flank/rear boundary line.
https://i.imgur.com/bH4F8cH.png

If your goal is to maintain a certain distance from the target's center -- that is, to stay on, just inside, or just outside the target ring -- the fastest way to change positionals is a straight line to the nearest rear/flank boundary at your chosen distance. Circling around the enemy requires moving a longer distance.
https://i.imgur.com/XdkdNQp.png
An arc from point A to point B is longer than a chord from point A to point B by a factor of x/(2sin(x/2)), where x is the central angle between the two points. This follows from the chord length formula a=2Rsin(x/2) where a is the chord length, R is the radius of the circle, and x is the central angle between the two points; and the arc length formula s=xR, where s is the arc length, R is the radius of the circle, and x is the central angle between the two points.

If you have to change positions while avoiding puddles, straight line paths (or paths made of straight line segments) will still be your fastest option except in the case that the puddle is centered on the target and is large enough to obstruct your straight line path.

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As for the moving away from aoe in standard movement. Ask a similar question to controller users having to swap around xcross bar to execute skills. It's a matter of skill, some people are able to take advantage of certain settings while overcoming their shortcomings; a foreign concept to you it seems.

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Your analogy is irrelevant. Hotbars have nothing to do with movement. If you are using standard movement, you move in the direction you're facing. There are many AoEs that you just absolutely cannot dodge while backpedalling, so that's not an option. You have to turn away from the boss to dodge a PBAoE, but using an action on a target requires you to face the target. This means that there are two possible outcomes when you are forced to dodge a large AoE.

• You have to stop attacking while you dodge, because you cannot face away to dodge while simultaneously facing the target to hit it with an action.
• You will stop dodging while you attack, because you cannot face the target to hit it with an action while simultaneously facing away to dodge.

So either you're racking up avoidable downtime by not attacking or you're taking avoidable damage by not dodging. If you can somehow manage to avoid the PBAoE and maintain uptime, via immaculately timed camera movements, congratulations but:

It doesn't matter how good you think you are with standard movement. The truth is that even if you can play well with standard movement on, you are making things harder on yourself. The extra effort of trying to reconcile your character's facing so that you don't rack up downtime and you don't take unavoidable damage is unnecessary effort that you would not have to spend energy on if you just used legacy movement, which means you could spend that cognitive effort on something else like mechanics or rotation optimization if you switched to legacy.

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*dusts off his Razer Tartarus Pro*

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Maybe dust off your math books instead.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

No, you're ignoring the context.


The fastest way to change positionals is a straight path perpendicular to the flank/rear boundary line.
https://i.imgur.com/bH4F8cH.png

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I know this. What you don't seem to understand is that you need to still do an arch in that situation. As the boss moves, you also move, creating an arch.

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If your goal is to maintain a certain distance from the target's center -- that is, to stay on, just inside, or just outside the target ring -- the fastest way to change positionals is a straight line to the nearest rear/flank boundary at your chosen distance. Circling around the enemy requires moving a longer distance.

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Clearly you skimmed over my comment, I stated this; what you seem to be missing is that bosses are not stationary or are tanks, you will have to move a good distance because of these 2 factors, the third being mechanics.

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Your analogy is irrelevant. Hotbars have nothing to do with movement. If you are using standard movement, you move in the direction you're facing. There are many AoEs that you just absolutely cannot dodge while backpedalling, so that's not an option. You have to turn away from the boss to dodge a PBAoE, but using an action on a target requires you to face the target. This means that there are two possible outcomes when you are forced to dodge a large AoE.[list]

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Who said I stop attacking when a boss moves by wide margin? You do know we're playing a game with a high GCD? And you're talking to me about math? Hah, hilarious. And no, I'm not dodging attacks running back; nowhere did I state such a thing.

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Maybe dust off your math books instead.

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Stop projecting; skills-based systems are not won on math, they're won based on skill. You can throw all the math you want at a "sport" or a video game but rarely are those the people that have the most skills, nor the ones that win the tournaments or championships.

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No you don't ever have to move in an arc. Standard movement forces you into it in some situations, but it is by no means necessary in any case. I'll say it again, just move in a straight line to where you need to be. That's it. I also never once said you only have to stay at the transition to be able to do positionals. If you think I did then you need a lesson in reading comprehension.

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Straight line implies that the boss is only moving on the X axis when that's clearly not the case; in many situations the boss does aoes that cover its entire body as well. What you both seem to not understand is that I'm not talking about striking dummies, I'm talking about bosses that continually have mechanics and aoes; and not all are the same size either. But of course, these factors are foreign to you.

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I'm ignoring your bad attempts at humble bragging about the skill needed to use legacy because it's just a humble brag and either Legacy is easier or harder, not both.

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The irony, you talk to me about reading comprehension and nowhere did I say that legacy movement is harder than standard. What I stated is that for some jobs, specially melee, standard movement seems to be more appropriate, in my experience. I never said it was hard using it on melee; but like I said, I'm completely not surprised.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

I know this. What you don't seem to understand is that you need to still do an arch in that situation. As the boss moves, you also move, creating an arch.

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Again, no, you don't need to move in an arc in any of those situations. A straight line is still better. A boss turns to use an ability on someone, run through the boss in a straight line to where you need to be. Boss runs over to a new spot in the arena, move to your new position in a straight line. If somehow the boss moves far enough that you have to use multiple GCD while it is moving then just move in a series of straight lines to the positions you need to be at for each GCD. Tank continually turns the boss, just run through the boss as needed. Arcs are pretty, but they're not efficient movement in a 2D plane no matter the situation. If there's a large circlular AoE that you're already out of range of but you want to move along the edge of the AoE without entering it to position yourself closer to the target at first glance sounds like a time this might be useful since if the boss is in the middle of said AoE then standard movemement makes it slightly easier to move around the AoE like this. But if the boss is at the centre then there's no reason to want to move around the AoE to reposition since you're already as close as possible and if the boss is not at the centre since you would have just moved in a straight line to the closest edge in the first place anyway. The only situation it might actually be needed would be something like the final boss of Holminster where you have to move around the boss to avoid AoE. I will grant that standard movement works slightly better for that situation. So like 1% of the time? And that's ignoring avoiding the AoE in the first place by running away from the boss with all the issues that standard movement causes to that.

I'm not against having a toggle for this, although I don't think it's needed. You can always tell when someone is using standard movement in-game because of they way they turn before moving or turn as they move causing them to move in an arc, and it is clearly a huge minority of players. And for good reason. That said, I don't even care if someone wants to hamstring their movement this way for whatever reason. The only issue I have is with your claim that a precise arc (not "arch" by the way, that's a different thing) is required to be able to land positionals as a melee. That's just plain false.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

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Your only examples are dungeon bosses? Ok, clearly I'm talking to someone whose extent of gameplay is limited to dungeons.

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I'm not against having a toggle for this, although I don't think it's needed. You can always tell when someone is using standard movement in-game because of they way they turn before moving or turn as they move causing them to move in an arc, and it is clearly a huge minority of players. And for good reason. That said, I don't even care if someone wants to hamstring their movement this way for whatever reason.

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Whether you think a toggle is needed or not doesn't ultimately impact the decision. Clearly it matters to square enix enough to have standard movement as an option since it's already an option in the game. What that reason is we have no official word about it, but I can surmise that they understand that all UI settings are personal preferences which should be there. Even the developers themselves make my suggestion for a toggle more valid; they themselves included standard movement. Moreover, I don't think you know what an arch is nor the fact that trial bosses are not striking dummies; Innocence alone proves all of my points, many archs in that fight; Hades extreme? Yeah I don't think you understand that I'm not talking about dungeon bosses.

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The only issue I have is with your claim that a precise arc (not "arch" by the way, that's a different thing) is required to be able to land positionals as a melee. That's just plain false.

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Incorrect, I never said that. You might want to actually read the statements before addressing them. Arch, arch, same word.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Incorrect, I never said that. You might want to actually read the statements before addressing them.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

specially on monk where going from back to side constantly requires a precise "arch;" specially visually.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Arch, arch, same word.

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Yes, Arch and arch are the same words regardless of capitalization. Arc is the word you want.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

Yes, Arch and arch are the same words regardless of capitalization. Arc is the word you want.

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Yes, very convenient to leave out the part where I said in my personal experience, within the very same sentence you quoted; nor did I say it was "required" to land positionals. Now that you have nothing left to quote we're down manipulating and quoting half sentences?

Arch and arc, you know that's what I meant, based on the fact that I was quoting you. They're both the same word, so much so that arch when used as a verb is a very appropriate term to use.

Math.

Any time you move in a curve, there is a straight line that connects the start point of that curve and the end point of the curve that is shorter then the length of the curve.

No matter how much all the points involved are moving. A straight line is the shortest distance between two points in a flat grid reference frame.

On a striking dummy/dungeon bosses, yes.

No, everywhere. It's part of the definition of "line" and "curve".

Incorrect, only applies to striking dummies and dungeon bosses. When you have really small bosses to really complex ones who jump in all directions with complex mechanics and aoes, you don't always get the chance to do lines.
However, if you want to go off topic, I give you the liberty to talk to yourself.

The request is clear, provide a toggle for standard and legacy movement within the game's macro system or through the Keybinds menu.

Again. No. That's not how math works.

There is no possible way that a curve can go on a flat planar grid, that this world is, that a straight line between any two points of it is shorter then the curve itself.

It's part of the definition of the mathmatical concept of the word CURVE even.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

Again. No. That's not how math works.

There is no possible way that a curve can go on a flat planar grid, that this world is, that a straight line between any two points of it is shorter then the curve itself.

It's part of the definition of the mathmatical concept of the word CURVE even.

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Yes it can, descriptively an arch is a way to explain the shape you make when you have to go around the boss, an aoe, a moving boss, a really small boss, and their mechanics.

And yet, for every point on that curve, by definition, the shortest distance between that point on the curve, and the point you where one second latter, or earlier, are both straight lines that are shorter.

Math.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

And yet, for every point on that curve, by definition, the shortest distance between that point on the curve, and the point you where one second latter, or earlier, are both straight lines that are shorter.

Math.

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That line you're talking about is descriptively an arch, not a line. it's only a line when you're talking about math.

I am talking about math. The straight line between two points that make up the curved arc, that's math.

And because of math, there will always be a straight line to travel, that will be shorter then the arcs and curves that some folks are trying to claim is shorter.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

I am talking about math. The straight line between two points that make up the curved arc, that's math.

And because of math, there will always be a straight line to travel, that will be shorter then the arcs and curves that some folks are trying to claim is shorter.

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On training dummies and dungeons bosses
Not in extreme fights which have mechanics, aoes, rapid turns by bosses, and all the other factors. But hey, keep doing your "math." The description isn't math, it's a description.

Everywhere.
Math works the same everywhere.

Just because the fight is more complex, and you can't visualize the line, does not mean that the math is suddenly somehow "wrong".

For every curve in the entire universe, everywhere, ever, there is a straight line between every two parts of the curve that is shorter.

There will be a shorter straight line, compared to the curve.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

Everywhere.
Math works the same everywhere.

Just because the fight is more complex, and you can't visualize the line, does not mean that the math is suddenly somehow "wrong".

For every curve in the entire universe, everywhere, ever, there is a straight line between every two parts of the curve that is shorter.

There will be a shorter straight line, compared to the curve.

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Nowhere.
When you describe a shape in any scenario outside of one relating to numbers it's described as in the shape it makes, not in the mathematical term. Again, you're basing this on a striking dummy, not in a real fight scenario.

I can't see how anybody could possibly like Legacy Camera, to be honest.

But hey, if that's what people want to use.

I dodge stuff just fine with Standard on all of my jobs (yes, all of them; I have all jobs on 80 and I've played all of them through varying content).

The trick to dodging stuff with Standard camera, is to strafe to the side to get out of stuff. As someone so eloquently pointed out earlier, the game doesn't care which direction you're facing, as long as you're not standing in the AoE when it goes off. So, if you're standing somewhere, and the marker appears on the ground, either walk forward to get out of it, or strafe to the side to get out of it. If for some reason you can't go exactly to the side, you can always turn just a little while strafing and you'll still dodge it quite easily.

I think it's kinda silly that a simple feature request has devolved into people arguing about which is better, though. Use the one you like. Seriously. Though I think it is kinda stupid to go pushing a particular style off on newbies who may or may not like that style or might even think the other style is more comfortable for them.

All 3 styles -- Controller, Mouse-Turning, and Keyboard Turning -- are perfectly viable in all content in the game. There are Savage Raiders in all 3 camps.

Lets say you want to move on the x/y axis with a gamepad.
You are facing towards y, an obstacle is infront of you, you need to go towards y then continue to x. Changing directions with standard controls is not like 100% towards Y then 100% towards X. Your input will be an diagonal one sometimes as you need to change the direction and you don't stop your movement from y to x with a gamepad. What you do is, you rotate the stick from y towards x. And exactly that leads to a decrease in speed compared to keyboard user who have an almost instant input(because they could just press e.g. W and then A/D - if they press W and A together it would be slower) because they can be more precise. Once the direction change has been completed, you perform the same line movement as anybody else, it will be the same speed again. But I think OP is highlighting that directionchange and calls it an "arc" when X and Y movements are done the simultanously(it can be almost flawless if the camera positioning is good).

It is usually not an issue because usually you have enough time to do any mechanic. I've only learnt about it because some people can strafe extremely fast around walls with a keyboard in PvP. It almost looks like speedhacking, but they are just better than other keyboard user and naturally better than other gamepad users.

My problem with the controls are also that I would like a toogle button for it (same way I would like to toogle slowwalk with a macro on gamepad instead of holding circle before walking)
and that the camera autoadjusts to the way your are walking in standard mode, there should be a check function that lets you disable it.

But I better don't speak about the issue that if you gain height with only the z-axis it is slower than a z and y or z and x movement = flying diagonally up is faster than flying vertically up. Which doesn't make sense but that's their engine.

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

But I better don't speak about the issue that if you gain height with only the z-axis it is slower than a z and y or z and x movement = flying diagonally up is faster than flying vertically up. Which doesn't make sense but that's their engine.

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Yeah, I've noticed that too.

Best way to ascend, is to Strafe Right + Turn Left (or Strafe Left + Turn Right) and ascend simultaneously. You get an upwards spiral as if you were going up a spiral staircase.

If you're using a controller, I imagine you'd get the same effect out of Move Left+Camera Right/Move Right+Camera Left while ascending. I assume?

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Nowhere.
When you describe a shape in any scenario outside of one relating to numbers it's described as in the shape it makes, not in the mathematical term. Again, you're basing this on a striking dummy, not in a real fight scenario.

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Everywhere.

Draw the Curve.
Mark the lines.
All the lines are shorter then the curves.
Always.

In real life, and in every game that uses euclidean geometry. You need some serious curvature of your surfaces before it becomes false.

Math dosen't stop working just because you say so.

(I aint sayin it's better, I'm only saying that it's shorter, because math isn't a lie)

@ICount/Amnmaat: Would have to point out an old adage:

"The shortest route between two points is a straight line."

You're standing somewhere, anywhere, we'll call it X.

You need to get out of any area, be it a square, a circle, a rectangle, you find the closest edge to you that is outside of the AoE. We will call this point, Y.

The fastest way to do this, is to travel in a straight line or as close as possible between X and Y.

This is an irrefutable truth. You will not get from X to Y any faster than going in a straight line.

EDIT: Except for, as ICount said, lots of curvature. Obviously, going up a mountain or through a canyon to draw a straight line might not be shortest, but on a flat plane, a straight line is always going to be fastest. And 99.99999% of all battles in XIV that matter are fought on flat planes.