DRK skill: Living Dead

quick suggestion, just wanna see what the community thinks.

I would like to see Living Dead made into a passive trait. all of its skill text and actual application is fine. i believe it should simply be a passive trait, instead of active use

Why should DRK's invuln be automatic whereas all the other tanks' invulns aren't?

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Why should DRK's invuln be automatic whereas all the other tanks' invulns aren't?

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Indeed.

The main issue with LD is how you're completely reliant on the healer to execute your job mechanic.
It needs to be able to be used and resolved by yourself.
I think that it should take any remaining HP off your MP first.
For example, lets say you get healed to 20% HP, leaving 80% required to survive.
If you have at least 80% of your MP, you lose that instead. Less than 80% MP you still die, but at least you have the opportunity to resolve it yourself with resource management.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Indeed.

The main issue with LD is how you're completely reliant on the healer to execute your job mechanic.
It needs to be able to be used and resolved by yourself.
I think that it should take any remaining HP off your MP first.
For example, lets say you get healed to 20% HP, leaving 80% required to survive.
If you have at least 80% of your MP, you lose that instead. Less than 80% MP you still die, but at least you have the opportunity to resolve it yourself with resource management.

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Then what about holmgang and GNB's invuln skills? They both set you to 1 hp and render you psudo-invincible for WAR and 8 seconds of invuln for GNB. When those end and you don't receive any healing you just die. Hallowed just flat out makes you invulnerable with no caveats. That's been a constant issue with the tank invuln skills. Hallowed will forever be the best one functionally and SE's refusal to ether outright nerf it or just re-align the other tanks to do the same thing.

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

Then what about holmgang and GNB's invuln skills? They both set you to 1 hp and render you psudo-invincible for WAR and 8 seconds of invuln for GNB. When those end and you don't receive any healing you just die. Hallowed just flat out makes you invulnerable with no caveats. That's been a constant issue with the tank invuln skills. Hallowed will forever be the best one functionally and SE's refusal to ether outright nerf it or just re-align the other tanks to do the same thing.

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Both WAR and GNB have self healing skills, and if you defeat the enemies in that time, you're good.
If DRK does it, they're dead either way.

It wouldn't be fool proof.
DRK too could only recover a fraction of their HP, which would mean they'd have to conserve MP in advance to survive, which is unlikely, but at least it would be possible.
Plus losing all that MP is still a penalty as you need MP for TBN.

First, this belongs in the tanking thread. Second, holmgang only makes it so your HP can't go below 1.
Third, I think it should be changed so instead of instana dead it should converts all remaining MP to HP on a percentage ratio of 2:1. 100% MP gives back 50% HP back and so on.

I can't get my healers to top me off when I bust it and spam 5 chatlines with alarms, how often do you think they'd notice that "living dead" debuff pop up?

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Both WAR and GNB have self healing skills, and if you defeat the enemies in that time, you're good.
If DRK does it, they're dead either way.

It wouldn't be fool proof.
DRK too could only recover a fraction of their HP, which would mean they'd have to conserve MP in advance to survive, which is unlikely, but at least it would be possible.
Plus losing all that MP is still a penalty as you need MP for TBN.

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Abyssal drain is a very potent self-healing ability that, when used properly, is capable of healing a similar amount of hp to a WAR's chaotic cyclone as well as soul eater having the same hp restoration as Storm's Path so WAR and GNB being able to self-heal is a moot point.

Then when we're talking about MP conversion then why should PLD not have their MP used for hallowed?

My point is: All the tank invulns should just be the flat 10 seconds of invuln on the... is it 10ish minutes CD? I appreciate that they tried to keep to the job theme, but Hallowed Ground is the only Invuln CD that doesn't have some kind of functionality issue.

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Originally Posted by Bsrking5

First, this belongs in the tanking thread. Second, holmgang only makes it so your HP can't go below 1.
Third, I think it should be changed so instead of instana dead it should converts all remaining MP to HP on a percentage ratio of 2:1. 100% MP gives back 50% HP back and so on.

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Yes Holmgang makes it so you can't drop below 1 hp, but if you keep the warrior from hitting 1 hp then what's the point of them having used their invuln in the first place then?

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

Yes Holmgang makes it so you can't drop below 1 hp, but if you keep the warrior from hitting 1 hp then what's the point of them having used their invuln in the first place then?

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Same thing can said for living dead, whats your point? I was correcting you saying its set to 1 which it does not.

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

Abyssal drain is a very potent self-healing ability that, when used properly, is capable of healing a similar amount of hp to a WAR's chaotic cyclone as well as soul eater having the same hp restoration as Storm's Path so WAR and GNB being able to self-heal is a moot point.

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Yes, Abyssal Drain is a very "potent" 200 potency heal that is SO useful on a single target enemy.

There are many problems with Living Dead.

The ability description and tool tips are incorrect. It's also one of the longest descriptions for an ability in the game. Imagine a new healer trying to figure out how it works mid-combat. Fun.
There are a lot of misconceptions about the healing requirements and duration.
There's a lack of UI information to support the use of this action. Healers have no feedback on how much actual healing is still required (you don't need to be at max health to clear the effect).
It's the only invuln that can be ended early by another player. An early Benediction can be just as dangerous as a late one.
The healing requirements are getting progressively worse, especially with the removal of Convalescence.
It doesn't sync up well with Benediction, which is required if you want to get the maximum duration out of it. If you reserve Benediction for Living Dead, you miss chances to use Benediction.
It's objectively worse than Holmgang. Put the drawback on the shorter recast invuln, and on a job that actually has abilities to self-heal through it.

All in all, it's a terribly designed ability which is convoluted for the sake of being convoluted. It needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. Failing that, just scrap invulns altogether and call it even.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It's the only invuln that can be ended early by another player. An early Benediction can be just as dangerous as a late one.

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This would be ok if dark knights could in return patch up other people by raising them.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

All in all, it's a terribly designed ability which is convoluted for the sake of being convoluted. It needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.

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Perhaps instead making it work with our MP instead? Our MP full heals upon use, and all damage from that point on for the next 10s is heavily mitigated and taken from our MP pool while our HP remains untouched. If our MP hits 0, Living Dead immediately ends and our MP is restored by 1K times the amount of seconds Living Dead stayed up. Taking a blow that would empty our MP pool completely during LD's duration would not bleed into our HP, so using it right before a heavy tankbuster, even if just at 600 MP, would safeguard our health completely. While one could say it would be too strong like this, it fixes the LD usability problems, and gives it a unique flavor that also requires a bit of skill to use.

This has been discussed for years in the tank forums, a million different suggestions have been made to make the skill better and SE hasn't listened to any of it, i doubt theyre going to start listening to it as soon as you post it on the general discussion forums.

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

Abyssal drain is a very potent self-healing ability that, when used properly, is capable of healing a similar amount of hp to a WAR's chaotic cyclone as well as soul eater having the same hp restoration as Storm's Path so WAR and GNB being able to self-heal is a moot point.

Then when we're talking about MP conversion then why should PLD not have their MP used for hallowed?

My point is: All the tank invulns should just be the flat 10 seconds of invuln on the... is it 10ish minutes CD? I appreciate that they tried to keep to the job theme, but Hallowed Ground is the only Invuln CD that doesn't have some kind of functionality issue.

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>AD heals as much as chaotic cyclone
Bro do you even tank?
WAR has Thrill, Nascent, and Equilibrium as self-heals, all of which make AD look like an infant in scale to how powerful they are.
"...10 seconds of invuln on the... is it 10ish minutes CD?"
...yeah you don't know tanks. NONE of the tanks invulns have a recast of 10 minutes. We've got Holmgang at 4min, Living Dead at 5min, Superbolide at 6min, and Hallowed at 7min recast.

remove invulns

For a game that has spectacular combat animations and visuals across many class abilities, I'm baffled why they didn't design the tank invulns to show a visual cue that healers could see that it has been used.

So for example the LD activation could give the the tank a light glow around the body when they are in the safe zone then it changes to purple ( like the trailer shows when the wol morphs into the drk) when it switches to the second life portion and requires the drk to be fully healed. Perhaps even a mild sound cue to go with it.

Unless a healer is glued to looking at a focus bar or party list when the tank is in dangerous hp zones and recognises the icon for the invuln used, its easy for a healer especially if they have no experience of tank invulns because they are new to not know at all that they need to emergency heal.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Yes, Abyssal Drain is a very "potent" 200 potency heal that is SO useful on a single target enemy.

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I wasn't aware we were discussing single target. I was discussing under the pretense of AoE.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

>AD heals as much as chaotic cyclone
Bro do you even tank?
WAR has Thrill, Nascent, and Equilibrium as self-heals, all of which make AD look like an infant in scale to how powerful they are.
"...10 seconds of invuln on the... is it 10ish minutes CD?"
...yeah you don't know tanks. NONE of the tanks invulns have a recast of 10 minutes. We've got Holmgang at 4min, Living Dead at 5min, Superbolide at 6min, and Hallowed at 7min recast.

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Pardon me for not knowing the specific CD timer of a specific ability off of the top of my head in a role I don't play as often as others.

However, I am aware that for self-healing DRK doesn't have much but that doesn't change much of anything since I've seen AD heal a pretty crazy amount of HP on large mob packs.

But hey, I'm trying to be civil. Not fling subtle insults. Please do come back when you're done with them. :3

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Originally Posted by VenKitsune

This has been discussed for years in the tank forums, a million different suggestions have been made to make the skill better and SE hasn't listened to any of it, i doubt theyre going to start listening to it as soon as you post it on the general discussion forums.

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I don't see SE changing it but they might eventually. The best hope of a rework might be new expansion release. This and the holy post doesn't belong in the general forums thou. I doubt SE isnt listening, they just have their own idea for how each jobs should preform.

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Originally Posted by VenKitsune

This has been discussed for years in the tank forums, a million different suggestions have been made to make the skill better and SE hasn't listened to any of it, i doubt theyre going to start listening to it as soon as you post it on the general discussion forums.

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Indeed it has. And as usual I will say that the skill is fine for one simple reason: It prevents you from hitting zero.

Sure, there are a ton of ways the ability can be improved. But the true problem with Living Dead is that it is a scapegoat. I've seen all the tanks, including PLD, get KO'd in the exact same situations that a DRK uses LD.

Healers need to be held accountable for KOs they could have prevented. Simple as that.

Living Dead is a giant black hole for resources and if it stays that way no amount of buffs will make it good. They could lower the CD and it would probably still be bad, as long as the CD isn't low enough to cheese EVERY single TB, allowing you to take an extra DPS.

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Originally Posted by Alaray

remove invulns

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Actually, I always felt that the ability to go invulnerable was a signature skill for PLD, and I wish it was exclusive to them. They still have the true invuln skill in the game, and the "preventing from hitting zero" abilities are all just watered down versions of it.

LD/WD actually works so well for DRK at least from a lore perspective. It makes sense that they don't necessarily go invulnerable, but rather can still come at you even after death, and you cannot kill what is already dead. It would be so flippin cool if WD's animation was still the DRK dropping, but Living Shadow comes out, and you have full control over it for a full 10 seconds, all the while the mob(s) relentlessly keep up their attack, hitting for 0 damage against the shadow.

WD status should honestly be lifted by casting Raise.

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Originally Posted by Praesul

Living Dead is a giant black hole for resources and if it stays that way no amount of buffs will make it good. They could lower the CD and it would probably still be bad, as long as the CD isn't low enough to cheese EVERY single TB, allowing you to take an extra DPS.

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DRK can already cheese most normal TBs with TBN.
Maybe that's why LD has been left as it is, it's unnecessary to even use it 95% of the time.

It sucks as an emergency invuln, but for planned use in high end content, although it takes more coordination with the healers, it can actually be better than the others.

For example with the tethers in Titania EX, DRK as the OT can take five of them, between TBN and LD.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Actually, I always felt that the ability to go invulnerable was a signature skill for PLD, and I wish it was exclusive to them. They still have the true invuln skill in the game, and the "preventing from hitting zero" abilities are all just watered down versions of it.

LD/WD actually works so well for DRK at least from a lore perspective. It makes sense that they don't necessarily go invulnerable, but rather can still come at you even after death, and you cannot kill what is already dead. It would be so flippin cool if WD's animation was still the DRK dropping, but Living Shadow comes out, and you have full control over it for a full 10 seconds, all the while the mob(s) relentlessly keep up their attack, hitting for 0 damage against the shadow.

WD status should honestly be lifted by casting Raise.

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I don't think Raise would be any easier than frantically spamming heals tbh.

But yeah, total invulnerability isn't strictly necessary most of the time.
Even something like 90% damage reduction, or increasing your HP by 80% for 6s, would probably work as an alternative.

Personally, I'd rather each of the Invuln skills were revised to... less of an invuln and more of a unique mitigation+utility skill.

Consider, when Holmgang ("Going to the Holm (a small island on which duels could be held)" or effectively just "Duel") first came out, it literally just tied the Warrior and its target in place, allowing certain kiting strats (when others had threat on its target) and ignoring knockbacks. The Warrior mog in the Good King Mog fight more or less copies this with a mass draw-in and snare skill. It'd make sense, perhaps, for it to prevent dying from any other targets while causing damage taken from any other sources to build Beast Gauge or the like, but a general death prevention seems a bit out of left field, as fun as it may feel at times.

Living Dead would be mostly fine if it just had a shorter cooldown (or if the others were nerfed to compensate), if it had a further effect during the actual Living Dead (not Walking Dead) component, and if DRK had decent life-steal, at least contextually. Make the skill as a whole more granular, effectively just allowing it to drop you into negative HP without dying instead of an all or nothing healing cost penalty, and give DRK a Blood for Blood trait, increasing its life-steal based on %missing HP (including the amount stored in Living Dead as negative HP) atop some lifesteal revisions across the whole kit. If capped to as much fatal damage absorbed as your maximum HP, it'd effectively allow no more and no less than twice your maximum eHP, but without any of the added healing efficiency; instead it'd tie into synergies with DRK's own kit to make up the difference.

Superbolide is... strange. The "hit just before death to minimize cost" gimmick is fun but, there's little else good, let alone unique, to be said about it. Not sure how I'd change this one yet.

Hallowed Ground is iconic, and therefore can't rightly be removed, but neither does it have to be free. It could, for instance, as easily force a 1-bar Tank LB on use. I'd be fine with Paladin being the only job to retain an actual Invuln. It just needs to have some balancing cost therein that makes it a tactical choice for one's party, rather than a free bonus.

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Originally Posted by Bsrking5

First, this belongs in the tanking thread. Second, holmgang only makes it so your HP can't go below 1.
Third, I think it should be changed so instead of instana dead it should converts all remaining MP to HP on a percentage ratio of 2:1. 100% MP gives back 50% HP back and so on.

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While creatively, it isn't a bad idea, that would put DRK at a disadvantage in terms of damage. Many fights (particularly in Savage) have strats that involve actively using invulns, and with your idea, that would really hamper DRK's damage output as they'd have to "waste" MP on a non-DPS action. Even TBN is dps neutral when used properly since it essentially refunds the used MP.

If every single invuln had a damage reducing side effect, this might not be so bad, but since they don't, this change would hurt DRK more than their current invuln does. It's wonky, but at least with healers who are on top of things/a Whm with Bene, there's not too much to worry about.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I don't think Raise would be any easier than frantically spamming heals tbh.

But yeah, total invulnerability isn't strictly necessary most of the time.
Even something like 90% damage reduction, or increasing your HP by 80% for 6s, would probably work as an alternative.

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Why not? They are already having to do that on top of the spam heals that didn't save the DRK. I just took out the brunt of the work. Any DRK main will tell you that the rate that which they actually survive WD is going to be around 50/50, or 'hit ot miss'. Casting raise is problematic only in the sense that the healer has to sacrifice their mobility. Otherwise you hit one button, and call it a day. There is the option to swiftcast it, which the healer is going to have to do anyway if their spam heals aren't enough to lift WD. I will admit, it is an ARR-isque solution, but one I would take as someone who plays the healers and DRK.

90% damage reduction is basically just a weaker Hallowed. I am highly in favor of tank invuln skills using the essence of that job's identity. I think PLD and DRK do well in this regard. I do like the idea of increased HP for WAR. Like seriously all it does it makes them a beast: basically just a big heal to get them out of crit + increased def that makes them nigh-invuln + increased damage. They can only use it when it crit HP though. GNB I am not so sure since I haven't touched it yet. Currently I find them basically casting Heartless Angel on themselves to be kind of wonky, but it works.

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

Pardon me for not knowing the specific CD timer of a specific ability off of the top of my head in a role I don't play as often as others.

However, I am aware that for self-healing DRK doesn't have much but that doesn't change much of anything since I've seen AD heal a pretty crazy amount of HP on large mob packs.

But hey, I'm trying to be civil. Not fling subtle insults. Please do come back when you're done with them. :3

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maybe if you can be less disingenuous? You claimed DRK had a good healing ability in Abyssal Drain. You compared it to chaotic cyclone. Chaotic Cyclone by itself doesn't even heal, it only does when used with nascent flash. You did not clarify you meant single target nor AoE, so that miscommunication is also your fault.

You demonstrated a clear lack of understanding on a matter, and I called out your lack of understanding on it, and instead of just saying "My bad, I don't really tank much" and move along, you wanna act like a victim, "how dare I be insulted?!" You made a mistake, I called you wrong. Being told you're wrong isn't an insult, get over it.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Indeed it has. And as usual I will say that the skill is fine for one simple reason: It prevents you from hitting zero.

Sure, there are a ton of ways the ability can be improved. But the true problem with Living Dead is that it is a scapegoat. I've seen all the tanks, including PLD, get KO'd in the exact same situations that a DRK uses LD.

Healers need to be held accountable for KOs they could have prevented. Simple as that.

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I disagree in SCH.
In solo play (dungeon/raid/etc) I'm rarely standing on enough ressources to prevent LD from killing the tank. Everything is done to prevent LD from ever being required. Unlike HLMG or HG that can actually be worked with to reduce the amount of healing required. LD is a loss 100% of the time.
In group play without a WHM often times it's better to ignore LD as well and have tanks do the mechanics as it's less healing and less dps loss. LD can still shine but it's only in limited situations. Generally those would be multi-hit tankbusters that would require repeated healing throughout, like golden bahamut or uwu ifrit, etc. In those cases, saving ressources to deal with LD is easier and less intrusive than healing through the mechanic.

In any event, it's not a scapegoat, something could/should definitely be done.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Indeed it has. And as usual I will say that the skill is fine for one simple reason: It prevents you from hitting zero.

Sure, there are a ton of ways the ability can be improved. But the true problem with Living Dead is that it is a scapegoat. I've seen all the tanks, including PLD, get KO'd in the exact same situations that a DRK uses LD.

Healers need to be held accountable for KOs they could have prevented. Simple as that.

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Yes and no.
Using tank invuln are part of some strategy for example in savage.
Which make DRK behind in that part if you don't have a whm. Sure, he'll get the heal, but you have to use so many ressources just for that in comparison.
Plus, any "random" living dead" in other scenario to prevent death means that, if you, as healer, is not ready because you already used your ressource for something else, you'll left spamming your your biggest GCD heal asap, not even knowing if it'll work (hello 20hp remaining).
It's honestly meh. I'm for a rework of it as well.
Too many drawback for what it does.

Paladin is invuln, so np.
Gnb is also invuln, so no stress as long as he'll endure the next hit with enough hp once bolide ends
War same, just some more hp
But a full HP bar.

I wouldn't mind if each tank would require the same amount of dedication for their invuln.
But that's not the case

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Hallowed Ground is iconic, and therefore can't rightly be removed, but neither does it have to be free. It could, for instance, as easily force a 1-bar Tank LB on use. I'd be fine with Paladin being the only job to retain an actual Invuln. It just needs to have some balancing cost therein that makes it a tactical choice for one's party, rather than a free bonus.

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Oh ick, no. You should never require using a party resource for a single person skill.

Maybe if they lowered the threshold to 50% health instead of full health. That way, you'd still have the mechanic, but it would be just enough for any healer to go "oh crap, got it" instead of trying to do the worst active time maneuver in the game just to keep the tank going and then see them die instantly because they didn't have Benediction and could only get them to like 80% health and CAN YOU STOP DYING DARRELL? UGH!!

Anyway, for the original question, no it shouldn't be passive. It's a button that rewards good gameplay when you use it, and better gameplay when you never have to.

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Originally Posted by Stepjam

While creatively, it isn't a bad idea, that would put DRK at a disadvantage in terms of damage. Many fights (particularly in Savage) have strats that involve actively using invulns, and with your idea, that would really hamper DRK's damage output as they'd have to "waste" MP on a non-DPS action. Even TBN is dps neutral when used properly since it essentially refunds the used MP.

If every single invuln had a damage reducing side effect, this might not be so bad, but since they don't, this change would hurt DRK more than their current invuln does. It's wonky, but at least with healers who are on top of things/a Whm with Bene, there's not too much to worry about.

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You are misunderstanding the change. Its not every time living dead procs. Its only if the time expires and would have killed the DRK. Whats better a dead DRK or one with 0 MP and some HP. In those strats nothing would be changed unless they planned on the death of the drk which would just take slightly longer. Thats basically the same outcome.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

maybe if you can be less disingenuous? You claimed DRK had a good healing ability in Abyssal Drain. You compared it to chaotic cyclone. Chaotic Cyclone by itself doesn't even heal, it only does when used with nascent flash. You did not clarify you meant single target nor AoE, so that miscommunication is also your fault.

You demonstrated a clear lack of understanding on a matter, and I called out your lack of understanding on it, and instead of just saying "My bad, I don't really tank much" and move along, you wanna act like a victim, "how dare I be insulted?!" You made a mistake, I called you wrong. Being told you're wrong isn't an insult, get over it.

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I presumed that everyone present knew that by context I was referring to chaotic cyclone under the effects of nascent. As someone who tanks I'd expect you to piece that together without needing to be told directly.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

>AD heals as much as chaotic cyclone
Bro do you even tank?
...yeah you don't know tanks..

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These comments weren't needed and made you come off as condescending, so please do pardon me for not being fond of condescending tones.

As for taking being told I'm wrong for an insult? Well I dunno what logic you're using, but I'm not bothered by being called out. We're all guilty of making mistakes and that's just reality. Anyone claiming otherwise is just full of hot air.

There's times where I think most of us forums goers ask ourselves your forum name. Oh well. Forums can be endearing I guess.

I think with a lot of new players nowadays, there should be an in-game tutorial that teaches the abilities of other jobs that you need to watch out for.

Things like: stand in these circles for heals, don’t run away from this green/red tethers because they are helpful to you, and yes, those unique tank abilities such as LD.

I’ve had cases in the past where healers get frustrated why I kept dying immediately, but it’s because they just don’t know LD. Similarly, I also did not fully understand healer or other mechanics.

Of course we can always just research from youtube, but to be honest I think majority of players don’t check out forums or youtube to do research.

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Originally Posted by baldman89

quick suggestion, just wanna see what the community thinks.

I would like to see Living Dead made into a passive trait. all of its skill text and actual application is fine. i believe it should simply be a passive trait, instead of active use

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You do understand Living Dead literally kills you if not healed to 100%? In theory it is supposed to be coordinated with a healer who knows you are about to get one shot once it counts down. I have seen sooooooo many Dark Knights just assume that healers keep their tank buffs scaled at 200% get killed because of this ability.

Automatically have something like that proc would not be advised as it would encourage bad Dark Knights to just yolo into fights and then blame the healer for not keeping them at 100% at all times lol

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

These comments weren't needed and made you come off as condescending, so please do pardon me for not being fond of condescending tones.

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

I presumed that everyone present knew that by context I was referring to chaotic cyclone under the effects of nascent. As someone who tanks I'd expect you to piece that together without needing to be told directly.

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Now who's condescending?

Good job pointing out the irony of my forum name though, been waiting for that to happen. Also good job on keeping this civil, but..

The onus of providing context is on the originator of the argument. This fault lies in you for 1) being misinformed as to what the tank invulns are, 2) being incorrect and inaccurate as to what the abilities and strengths/weaknesses are with DRK and Abyssal Drain when compared to the other tanks forms of self sustain, 3) not up-front admitting that you're speaking on a subject you're ill-informed of, and 4) failure to see the own flaws inherent in your arguments by making assumptions at all.

This is General Discussion, an area where more often than not players from all spectrums of play types would see. It is not the tanking section, where a modicum of understanding for how the tanks operate is appreciated.

I do want to counter your earlier comment though, even further.

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

However, I am aware that for self-healing DRK doesn't have much but that doesn't change much of anything since I've seen AD heal a pretty crazy amount of HP on large mob packs.

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You're comparing a 60s recast oGCD ability with the pairing of a 25s recast oGCD (Nascent Flash) paired with a GCD AoE move that is reliant on Infuriate and beast gauge... that can also be ignored via Inner Release if you want to instead rely on Decimate. Comparing a single oGCD which is up every minute, to 3 uses of a GCD under the effects of Nascent is a literal apples to oranges comparison to be made.

I'm done derailing this thread proving you were wrong. LD is a garbage skill and is the punchline to the joke that is DRK in 5.x.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Actually, I always felt that the ability to go invulnerable was a signature skill for PLD, and I wish it was exclusive to them. They still have the true invuln skill in the game, and the "preventing from hitting zero" abilities are all just watered down versions of it.

LD/WD actually works so well for DRK at least from a lore perspective. It makes sense that they don't necessarily go invulnerable, but rather can still come at you even after death, and you cannot kill what is already dead. It would be so flippin cool if WD's animation was still the DRK dropping, but Living Shadow comes out, and you have full control over it for a full 10 seconds, all the while the mob(s) relentlessly keep up their attack, hitting for 0 damage against the shadow.

WD status should honestly be lifted by casting Raise.

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For me it's little to do with lore/thematics with these abilities and more that, in an encounter, they don't often add much to it and since they need to be designed and balanced around, they usually become uninteresting mechanically. Or reduce a mechanic that might, otherwise, be interesting into something incredibly trivial.

Be it negating the mechanical juggling of a tankbuster (ie: Titan Savage), or negating a reason to move for a mechanic and just eat it to the face anyway, or negating a sequence of mechanics (such as when people were adamant, for a while, about PLD Hallowed-ing the ranged baits in O11S) among others.

I just find them uninteractive, and not very interesting to employ in general, but they're often key CD's utilized in a lot of pieces of content and having some be markedly worse than others puts some tanks in spots where it just feels... detrimental.

That said, if DRK could heal itself like a WAR then LD itself might be more palpable. But Abyssal drain, outside of a dungeon mass pull, isn't going to really help much with the situation.