Buffs to dragoon

I feel dragoon should get a couple of buffs

It doesn't need any buffs.

It needs a QoL change to it's Wheeling/Fang buff timers to match the current combo timers.
A refresh of Disembowel on it's AOE combo.
And maybe a reduction of the Animation locks.

Doesn't need it.

But still curious about what you're expecting it to get exactly ?
It's nice to say "buff it", but what exactly make you feel it should?

Yo but like can we get an AoE disembowel refresher please.

I woundn't mind a disenbowel buff duration refresh with the aoe combo and also a cd reduction on the firejump after an aoe combo.
Just to spice up the aoe. Rotation during dungeon a lil.

I think so too but they won't do anything interesting with it until next expansion. it needs some type of parrying system built into it like samurai, something to give it bigger skill ceiling instead of the linear combat with the impossible to fill conditions, true north alone isn't enough for them, I like dragoon a lot and i want it to be good, it kind of has the issues that melee has in this game being heavily reliant on tank positioning and ranged positioning in order to "excel" but then ultimately does middle of the pack damage even when conditions are right. I wish it had extra reach, and the same attention as the other melee jobs as they tend to be adjusted always before dragoon does unfortunately.

By next expansion... when we hit lv90 cap, I would like to be able to do two Stardivers.... and though I know it will probably never happen, for the Dragon Eyes gaze not to reset if the BotD gets dropped...

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Originally Posted by Rasler_Heios

By next expansion... when we hit lv90 cap, I would like to be able to do two Stardivers.... and though I know it will probably never happen, for the Dragon Eyes gaze not to reset if the BotD gets dropped...

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oh god so much this! i die inside when I accidentally let that buff drop and I lose my eye stacks

How do you let that buff drop ? (Beside 30s + transition. )

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Originally Posted by Rasler_Heios

By next expansion... when we hit lv90 cap, I would like to be able to do two Stardivers.... and though I know it will probably never happen,

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Why not, it doesn't do that much damage why not let us do that now

Upgrade True Thrust to Raiden Thrust at a certain level.
Single Target Version of Stardiver.
High Jump should be a Gap Closer, or give SD a second Charge.

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Originally Posted by Renkei

and the same attention as the other melee jobs as they tend to be adjusted always before dragoon does unfortunately.

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Monk says Hi.

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Originally Posted by Renkei

I wish it had extra reach, and the same attention as the other melee jobs as they tend to be adjusted always before dragoon does unfortunately.

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Dragoon gets it's tweaks almost immediately and then it usually doesn't need anything after the fact. It's got some weird quirks now like Fang and Claw/Wheeling Thrust durations being shorter than the combo durations and it's damage buff not refreshing in AOE, but none of them are devastating problems with gameplay that have gone unaddressed for ages. The job that sort of thing describes is Monk, which got ignored through Heavensward, Stormblood, and probably would have been left until 6.0 if its playerbase hadn't been burning the forums down for the last year.

As far as buffs go, the only one it needs is for Sonic Thrust to Refresh Disembowel (and be earned at like level 56). The rest of what it could use is just tweaks like its combo finishers to be have 15 second durations.

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A refresh of Disembowel on it's AOE combo.

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I find it odd that now that BotD recast is shorter than it's duration, there's no longer a need for 2 out of 3 hits of the AoE combo to extend the duration. At least one of the hits should extend Disembowel buff by 10s or so. However, currently, the DRG AoE combo is quite strong, so they may have taken its potency into account with the lack of Disembowel buff in mind.

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Originally Posted by MiracleBob

Upgrade True Thrust to Raiden Thrust at a certain level.

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They could do this but then the reward of landing the positional is gone and there's less to differentiate good players. Why remove good play optimization even more?

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Single Target Version of Stardiver.

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I mean, it's 600 potency on ST which is quite strong, but I can see them adding a ST version for 750 potency in 6.0 but then reducing STD potency to like 350-400 and remove it's damage drop-off to compensate.

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High Jump should be a Gap Closer, or give SD a second Charge.

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DRG already has 4 gap closers (SSD, DFD, STD, EJ), most DPS have 1. I highly doubt DRG will get a 5th gapcloser.

The only buff Dragoon needs is to Piercing Talon so it's actually worth using. Bumping it to 300 potency and it no longer breaking your combo would be a huge QoL change. Otherwise, the duration of Wheeling/Fang ought to be extended to 15 seconds as it feels like an oversight they haven't done this. I'd also like if you didn't lose eyes should BotD fall.

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Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono

And maybe a reduction of the Animation locks.

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Unless you're referring to Stardiver and Stardiver only, I absolutely disagree with you.

No other action needs a shorter animation lock, in fact I'm fine with Stardiver. No more flailing characters, its already horrible as it is.

The only reason you'd want the animation lock shorter is due to ping or not knowing a specific fight. The former should not dictate the quality of the game because a handful of players have high ping. Transfer to a data center closer to you. The latter, should not dictate the quality of the game either, practice more.

Thank you.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I'd also like if you didn't lose eyes should BotD fall.

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No thank you. At level 80 its basically impossible to drop Blood of the Dragon.

At level 70, this change would make DRG braindead. There are enough braindead things in FFXIV. No thank you.

The only suggestion i've seen so far that I would like to see is this one... in the next expansion.

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Originally Posted by MiracleBob

give SD a second Charge.

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Thats it. Nothing else. (From this thread so far.)

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

The only reason you'd want the animation lock shorter is due to ping or not knowing a specific fight. The former should not dictate the quality of the game because a handful of players have high ping. Transfer to a data center closer to you.

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You're kidding, right? Just transfer to a data center closer to you? NA servers are on the West Coast, people on the East Coast can already have ping issues due to the distance, are they supposed to move cross country? What about people in Australia, closest data centers are in Japan which again, huge distance away and so their ping sucks. The developers should absolutely keep ping in mind when designing animation locks because it's not easy for people just get close to a data center for a really low ping.

Freezing eyes so they don't drop would help for cutscene transitions or QTEs. Think about it:
SAM: keep Sens and Kenki
MNK: keep Chakras
NIN: keep Ninki
SMN: keep Aetherflow
BRD: keep soul gauge
RDM: keep black and white mana
PLD: keep oath
DRK: keep blood gauge
WAR: keep beast gauge
SCH: keep aetherflow and fae gauge
WHM: keep lillies
MCH: keep heat and battery gauges
DNC: keep esprit gauge
BLM: keep polyglot stacks
AST: keep cards and seals
GNB: keep cartridges

What does DRG keep? Nothing. They're the only job that loses everything after a long transition. They lose Disembowel, they lose BotD, they lose eyes. None of drgs resources are kept, they all expire. Why does every job get to keep *something* but not Dragoon? Dropping enochian doesn't delete BLM's polyglots, why should dropping BotD drop eyes? They both accrue at a rate of 1 every 30s, so...?

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

No thank you. At level 80 its basically impossible to drop Blood of the Dragon.

At level 70, this change would make DRG braindead. There are enough braindead things in FFXIV. No thank you.

The only suggestion i've seen so far that I would like to see is this one... in the next expansion.

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Really? Because I could have sworn there's a minute long cut-scene in E8S where I'm stun locked and thus unable to press Blood of the Dragon.

Frankly, they should make BotD refresh to 30 at level 70 like it does at level 80. There's zero reason not to as syncing down just makes Dragoon more annoying to play.

DRG is trash in FFXIV.
Why are people ok with a DRG that does sustained DPS when in all the other FF games DRG is a power house.
DRG should play like SAM and burst DMG everything. This whole keep attacking until you get 2 attacks that don't do that much dmg is a crap idea.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

Might I introduce you to the concept of "Burst Phases," which Dragoon definitely has.

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and wait might those include

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Originally Posted by Darsien

The entire Life of the Dragon phase? You know, the one where you get 3 uses of Nastrond and a Stardiver in within 30 seconds, along with your Dragonfire Dive and Life Surge in those windows at times. If that's not a burst phase, then what is it?

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A Burst dmg is when 1 attack does alot of dmg like SAM's Midare Setsugekka.
SAM builds up attack then lets out 1 massive hit.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

This is the cutest thing I've seen in a while.

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if you like that come see the smn forums, we got tons of these guys.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

I'd love a link to said forums, as I cannot seem to find it in the forum structure.

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i meant threads talking about smn stuff xD

imma link you some if you feel like laughing


https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...culation/page2

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...amours-anymore

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Monk says Hi.

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DRG 2.0 says hi, Not relevant until final coil. Can i please get 15 seconds instead of 10 WS holding like monk did? DRG has never been fixed before Monk this is the first cycle they bull-crapped monk but at least they buffed Riddle of Fire by removing its slow down, honestly they seem to enjoy neglecting classes in this game. Popular opinion on the English forums is no to dragoon changes, when on the jp forums is a totally different beast. At least the guys there conduct themselves by spitballing ideas inside of a single job improvement thread so the devs can look at it and consider it, here everyone shoots down each-other with one liners because nobody wants to waste their brain power even considering for 5 seconds if it would even be game breaking or not.

Ahah, remember when Dragoon was so OP in 4.X with piercing that it was instantly meta in any comp due to how absurd it was ? Remember peoples still asking for DRG buffs at that time ?

But seriously, DRG isn't unplayable, it isn't in a terrible spot, it isn't the worst job there is in any fashion.

At the launch of 5.0 DRG was by far the most complete melee job there was at the time. Its rotation was working and was not one of the worst dps there was unlike Ninja. It also didn't have the need for a bandaid fix to its rotation like SAM, and it simply didn't need dumb and overpowered QoL to be at least playable, unlike MNK. BUT IT STILL RECEIVED THOSE QOL BUFFS ANYWAY.

Well maybe not all of them. The claw and fang timer should be upgraded. Yeh. But apart from that, it doesn't need anything. The crit buff is really good (try pairing it with a fast BLM, which usually have around 4% crit chance. Watch the smile on that little boy's face when for once he can see two directcrit on a Fire4 in one fight.), eye of the dragon buff is good as well, altho it should need something else than a macro to really work. And for once they gave Dragoon a reliant burst phase with one damage buff being up each time, as well as another tool for your burst phase known as stardiver.

The only things a DRG could need right now is QoL stuff anyway, no damage buffs, no party buffs... It's doing perfectly fine.

QoL buffs you could do :
Fix clipping on Stardiver
Extend Claw&Fang timer duration to match a standard combo
Make it easier to link Eye of the Dragon

And that's about it.
Y'don't need anything guys. It's not because Dragoon was a forced meta pick last expac that it should be the same now. :/ We already have Summoner doing that, let's not add another job to the list !

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Originally Posted by animeking

A Burst dmg is when 1 attack does alot of dmg like SAM's Midare Setsugekka.
SAM builds up attack then lets out 1 massive hit.

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That's a burst attack. Attack can be either a state or countable noun.
Damage is a quality or, though it can be quantified in video games or variably by dollars' cost in real life, a non-countable noun.

As the term is used in XIV (as per virtually every MMO), burst is the peaks of those mountain looking things on your, say, fflogs damage-over-time graphs, and what portion of the overall area under the line is within those peaks.

Dragoon has burst damage. In spades.

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That said, there are only a small handful of things I necessarily want to see from Dragoon:

1. Mirage Dive takes the slot of Jump while Jump is on cooldown. It no longer requires a second key of bloat.
   
   
2. Sharpened Claw and Fang and Enhanced Wheeling thrust just removed in favor of multi-source combo actions now that there's no RNG attached, thus giving F&C and WT a 15-second timer, or just extended by 5 seconds.
   
   
3. You can now move (at up to 150% speed) during Jump's animation, adjusting the relative landing point on the target and upon return. A landing indicator has been added. (If you've held forward movement while returning from Jump, you'll land again forward from where you started the Jump.)
   
   
4. Battle Litany ranged increased from 15 yalms to 20.
   
   
5. Piercing Talon made at least vaguely worthwhile by increasing its initial range and damage while reducing its ppgcd penalty over most steps within either given combo through a further trait, e.g.

• Dragonkiller: Replaces Piercing Talon whenever a combo is in progress, increasing its potency by a further 100.

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Originally Posted by Renkei

DRG 2.0 says hi, Not relevant until final coil.

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Dragoon was pretty consistently taken over Monk through First Coil and most of Second Coil. Heck, it wasn't until Phoenix that Dragoon's vulnerability to magic damage become a notable issue, at which point, voila, Dragoon lost its magic damage vulnerability despite keeping its heightened anti-physical eHP.

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Originally Posted by Renkei

DRG 2.0 says hi, Not relevant until final coil.

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And after it's Magic Defense Buff, it's been relevant ever since.

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Originally Posted by Renkei

Can i please get 15 seconds instead of 10 WS holding like monk did? DRG has never been fixed before Monk..

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Dragoon has pretty consistently been fixed before Monk, when it's actually needed fixing.

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Originally Posted by Renkei

this is the first cycle they bull-crapped monk...

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EL. OH. EL. Yes, Heavensward and it's "DELETE MNK" mantra didn't exist, Stormblood, where it started with every gcd being nerfed, where it was the worst of the melee until 4.4's TK rotation put it on par with NIN in very specific comps didn't exist, sure. If we ignore all the other times they bull-crapped monk, this is totally the first time.

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Originally Posted by Renkei

honestly they seem to enjoy neglecting classes in this game

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And none more than Monk.

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Originally Posted by Renkei

here everyone shoots down each-other with one liners because nobody wants to waste their brain power even considering for 5 seconds if it would even be game breaking or not.

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It doesn't matter if it would be game breaking or not. Your asking for a job that has been consistently good, to receive buffs it absolutely doesn't need. QoL in the form of Wheeling/Fang combo timer extensions, AOE Disembowel refresh, heck even potentially keeping eyes when BotD is dropped, sure. But asking for anything beyond that is too much when the job has consistently performed well, and there are other jobs, with longer standing issues (SMN's, MNK's, BRD's, etc), that should take priority.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That's a burst attack. Attack can be either a state or countable noun.
Damage is a quality or, though it can be quantified in video games or variably by dollars' cost in real life, a non-countable noun.

As the term is used in XIV (as per virtually every MMO), burst is the peaks of those mountain looking things on your, say, fflogs damage-over-time graphs, and what portion of the overall area under the line is within those peaks.

Dragoon has burst damage. In spades.

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You just described exactly what ive been talking about DRG is a sustain DPS not a burst DPS.
I've seen the fflog but I'm not talking about where DRG is on the tier listing I'm talking about actual gameplay.
Yes DRG can be Sustain DPS and be high tier, yes DRG can also be burst DPS and also be high tier.

I'm talking about playing DRG like its always been played.
In every other FF game DRG has been the heavy hitter of the group, not the mediocre hitter but can attack faster then everyone else.

but sure lets move on from the past.
You can easily tell Yoshi P has no idea what to do with some of these jobs, like DRG, by that fact they make skills like BotD and clearly never tested them out.

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Originally Posted by Renkei

DRG 2.0 says hi, Not relevant until final coil. Can i please get 15 seconds instead of 10 WS holding like monk did? DRG has never been fixed before Monk this is the first cycle they bull-crapped monk but at least they buffed Riddle of Fire by removing its slow down, honestly they seem to enjoy neglecting classes in this game. Popular opinion on the English forums is no to dragoon changes, when on the jp forums is a totally different beast. At least the guys there conduct themselves by spitballing ideas inside of a single job improvement thread so the devs can look at it and consider it, here everyone shoots down each-other with one liners because nobody wants to waste their brain power even considering for 5 seconds if it would even be game breaking or not.

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https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FaintDista...restricted.gif

I have mained Dragoon since Heavensward and are you kidding me? There has not been a single time since 3.0 where Dragoon wasn't superior. It either outright did more damage or brought enough support to compensate. I mean, piercing alone kept Dragoon in the meta slot throughout two expansions whereas Monk loitered in mediocrity. The only time Monk even entered the conversation is Eden's Gate when they panicked buffed it after the community straight up refused to play it. This coming off the heels of the media tour where the dev team cited Monk as their most proud change. By 5.1, Ninja reclaimed its status and now even with Dragoon finally slipping from the top dog spot, it's still third place—beating out, wait for it, Monk! Which remains the worst Melee in the game. Again.

To say Monk isn't among the most shafted jobs in the game at this point is just wrong.

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Originally Posted by animeking

You just described exactly what ive been talking about DRG is a sustain DPS not a burst DPS.
I've seen the fflog but I'm not talking about where DRG is on the tier listing I'm talking about actual gameplay.
Yes DRG can be Sustain DPS and be high tier, yes DRG can also be burst DPS and also be high tier.

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They weren't talking about tiers, they were talking about objective statistics that can be viewed on FFlogs - Dragoon has several sudden spikes in damage, also known as bursts. It bursts during the opener/any reopeners when all the cooldowns are up and it bursts during the Stardiver phase. A class can be consistent and still have sudden bursts of damage.

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I'm talking about playing DRG like its always been played.
In every other FF game DRG has been the heavy hitter of the group, not the mediocre hitter but can attack faster then everyone else.

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Dragoon doesn't attack faster than the other Melee DPS. Last I checked Monk has a quick GCD as its gimmick, Samurai has a buff to speed built into its rotation and Ninja has rapid fire Mudras. Unless I've missed something DRG is very clearly the slowest Melee DPS, and makes up for it with... a lot of heavy hits. Also, this isn't every other FF; if you're going to complain about classes being changed from the mainline games you've got a lot else to complain about.

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but sure lets move on from the past.
You can easily tell Yoshi P has no idea what to do with some of these jobs, like DRG, by that fact they make skills like BotD and clearly never tested them out.

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Random pivot into an unsubstantiated point that has no logical explanation, neat.

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Originally Posted by Beddict

You're kidding, right? Just transfer to a data center closer to you? NA servers are on the West Coast, people on the East Coast can already have ping issues due to the distance, are they supposed to move cross country? What about people in Australia, closest data centers are in Japan which again, huge distance away and so their ping sucks. The developers should absolutely keep ping in mind when designing animation locks because it's not easy for people just get close to a data center for a really low ping.

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No I’m not kidding.

The game is designed with distances in mind. If your ping is so high animation lock is causing you severe damage loss, then you should get a new provider. Or something like a VPN or take other steps to lower ping like Whitelist the server, change to Ethernet instead of WiFi.

They really don’t need to make changes because you refuse to.

packetloss on the other hand is another story. But the topic here isn’t packetloss, it’s animation lock.

So no. No I’m not kidding.

Are you kidding when you ask Square-Enix to change the game for everyone else because you refuse to make changes? That’s a bit of an ask.

Being realistic though, I probably am in the wrong place for logic and things making sense.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

No I’m not kidding.

The game is designed with distances in mind. If your ping is so high animation lock is causing you severe damage loss, then you should get a new provider. Or something like a VPN or take other steps to lower ping like Whitelist the server, change to Ethernet instead of WiFi.

They really don’t need to make changes because you refuse to.

packetloss on the other hand is another story. But the topic here isn’t packetloss, it’s animation lock.

So no. No I’m not kidding.

Are you kidding when you ask Square-Enix to change the game for everyone else because you refuse to make changes? That’s a bit of an ask.

Being realistic though, I probably am in the wrong place for logic and things making sense.

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Im just gonna assume you've never lived in/ played on EU, you can do your damnest to minmise your ping but its almost always gonna be noticiable and you're gonna get a tonne of packet loss. The game is clearly not designed with distance in mind if it took them so many years to make ninjas design more ping friendly, and they thought the abomination that was SB mch's design was okay (inconsistent flamethrower ticks haunt my nightmares). You're also making a bunch of assumtions here about players not putting in effort, a lot of players in EU and AU make active effort to lower ping and still can't do anything about it outside of literally moving.

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Originally Posted by animeking

You just described exactly what ive been talking about DRG is a sustain DPS not a burst DPS.
I've seen the fflog but I'm not talking about where DRG is on the tier listing I'm talking about actual gameplay.

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It's actual gameplay is bursty. Your apm and potency is not proportionate over time. Your periods of greatest damage can exceed twice your sustained DPS and nearly reach twice your average. Any class with significant differences in output over time, such that their greatest damage rates near twice their average, is considered "bursty". Although other jobs have caught up with it since, Dragoon began as one of the most bursty jobs (alongside only Bard and perhaps BLM, originally) and still remains plenty bursty to this day. It has always had a fair bit of burst.

You can throw up your hands and pretend burst refers to the amount of damage dealt in a single skill, but it never has. It's only ever referred to a brief period of time (which holds disproportionately high value).

DRG has, for all intents and purposes, a Fell Cleave as a 3rd combo step. It its burst phase, it can do up to up to 1078 effective AoE potency without even using a global cooldown. That is heavy-hitting.

Beyond that, though, it's pointless to draw comparisons to single-player games.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

The game is designed with distances in mind.

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No. It's not. They've literally said it was designed with Japans internet infrastructure in mind. Which was one of the main reasons they changed how Ninja's Mudras worked.

clearly no one has played old FF games and dont know what a Burst DD is.

Burst phase is not burst DPS.

back in the old games when you get a DRG in your party he was a heavy hitter.
even in FFXI DRG was a heavy hitter.

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Originally Posted by animeking

clearly no one has played old FF games and dont know what a Burst DD is.

Burst phase is not burst DPS.

back in the old games when you get a DRG in your party he was a heavy hitter.
even in FFXI DRG was a heavy hitter.

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It's definitely possible that every single other person who plays MMOs and has widely decided what "burst DPS" means is wrong, that's true. It's also possible that your pointless arbitrary definition of DRG being a "heavy hitter" in the other games and not a "heavy hitter" here is wrong.

I know which one I'm voting for.

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Originally Posted by animeking

clearly no one has played old FF games and dont know what a Burst DD is.

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Losing a turn to deal less damage than mashing the "Fight Button" isn't a great example of doing "Burst".

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Losing a turn to deal less damage than mashing the "Fight Button" isn't a great example of doing "Burst".

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In fairness, that depends on which final fantasy game you're playing.

In FF3 from about job level 50 onwards jumping is damage neutral to fight, and scales further to be more powerful than fight

In FF4 it dealt more damage with the right setup

In FF5 when using a spear its damage neutral to fight, however lets you attack from the back row, and ignores enemy blocks.

In FF6 it is potentially the highest damage you can do with a physical fighter when using the dragon horn and dragon boots, as one cast of jump executes jump multiple times like a pogo stick decimating enemies (especially in the imp setup)

You get the point, but its certainly not less damage than fight in most of the cases I can think of.