The Echo and the Ascians

this might have been covered elsewhere, in this case I am sorry for asking again.

with recent revelations about the ascians and the other fraction around Venat I remember Elidibus saying to Minfilia that if they would understand the echo there would be no difference between her and and Ascian.

what does that mean? the echo doesn't seem to be the same among it's "users". would someone with the echo be able to jump bodies if that person knew how to fully utilize it?

what else could Elidibus mean?

is the echo maybe just the tempering of Hydaelyn?

(recently playing the story again and a lot of questions come up...)

The echo is a pale shade of the ancients creation magicks. Everyone can access the echo if they "remember" who they once were. The star shower triggers that remembrance, "the end of Amaurot". Its not related to or bestowed by hydaelyn.

Just a theory, but given what's said about hydaelyn's current state leads me to think that the echo simply makes you aware of her calling, which is essentially nothing more than a tempering signal on repeat.
The story has more than once suggested we are tempered by hydaelyn.

The Echo is effectively a reawakening of the Ancients' power in individuals who have inherited a fragment of their soul.

It is not tempering by Hydaelyn; and while there are hints that suggest the PC may be tempered by her, if they are it's not much more than a placebo as far as we are aware.

The echo isnt hydaelyns tempering, its just that the first thing those who gain the echo hear is her call. She constantly keeps calling but only those with the echo can hear it.
The echo is just the power people used to have, however It isnt creation magic, creation magic is what the amaurotians called their magic technique, creation magic is actually arcanima.

Edit.
You may think of it as thus, The amaurotians were immortal, their constructs could not tempt them and they had a lot of personal aether. In comparison a normal person is mortal, he hasnt got alot of aether and he is tempted by the mere presence of a primal. With the echo we have excelled on everything we do

ok. but what does elidibus mean by "if you understand the echo you are just like ascians"?

does it simply refer to the fact that they remember their past?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

ok. but what does elidibus mean by "if you understand the echo you are just like ascians"?

does it simply refer to the fact that they remember their past?

---

What he specifically says is that "we would be of one mind;" or, more colloquially, "we'd think the same thing." With what we now know he's probably suggesting we'd be anti-Hydaelyn and pro-Zodiark if we knew the truths of the world; obviously some players feel that way, but in-universe nobody seems to share their sentiment.

While Echo users do have a fragment of their Ancient soul's power (reawakened by an implicit memory), they don't actually consciously recall the Final Days.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

ok. but what does elidibus mean by "if you understand the echo you are just like ascians"?

does it simply refer to the fact that they remember their past?

---

We dont know yet but we can theorise. Its called the echo , we can assume that it is called thus cause of the voice of hydaelyn echoing when someone obtains it. But then it begs questions if its something the amaurotians already had and they also call it the echo are they possibly refering to something else. Could it be that they refer with it a memory every single ascian remembers, it doesnt quite fit. What if there is another voice that calls but we are too weak to hear, Hydaleyn bestowes to her chosen ones the power to look into the past , but what does zodiark bestows. Maybe they refer to the memories of the real us, imagine how tormenting it must be to see people that once were friends suddenly be complete strangers, or at worst enemies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

What he specifically says is that "we would be of one mind;" or, more colloquially, "we'd think the same thing." With what we now know he's probably suggesting we'd be anti-Hydaelyn and pro-Zodiark if we knew the truths of the world; obviously some players feel that way, but in-universe nobody seems to share their sentiment.

While Echo users do have a fragment of their Ancient soul's power (reawakened by an implicit memory), they don't actually consciously recall the Final Days.

---

i didn't recall the english text so I went with german which is more in line with what I wrote. going by the english text this makes more sense

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

Edit.
You may think of it as thus, The amaurotians were immortal, their constructs could not tempt them and they had a lot of personal aether. In comparison a normal person is mortal, he hasnt got alot of aether and he is tempted by the mere presence of a primal. With the echo we have excelled on everything we do

---

Actually, the Amaurotians (and all Ancients) were not immortal, the shades of the phantom Amaurot and Hades's story on the Lodestone that was part of the 'Tales From the Shadows' make that explicitly clear, that the Ancients had a finite life span, and that they procreated and gave birth, grew as children into adults and eventually died at the end of their lives, their souls returning to the planet (which they called the 'Underworld') just like the current races.

What was different though is they had far, far greater personal wellsprings of aether, which is what powered their creation magic to a level far exceeding the greatest magic capable in the present day, and that even a newborn baby was capable of wielding such power inately, a scary thought.

They only became immortal beings of pure aether after Zodiark was summoned and 'rewrote the laws of nature', which a handful of Ancients became the Ascians. But back before the Terminus and the Sundering, they most definetely were mortal beings, who were born, lived and died like we do. Their lifespans were probably far greater, but still were finite.

Ill check it out again then though i know for sure that the dead thing was not bestowed by zodiark. Its what the warriors of dakness did earlier when they came to the source. It has something to do with the crystals of power not zodiark specificly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Actually, the Amaurotians (and all Ancients) were not immortal, the shades of the phantom Amaurot and Hades's story on the Lodestone that was part of the 'Tales From the Shadows' make that explicitly clear, that the Ancients had a finite life span, and that they procreated and gave birth, grew as children into adults and eventually died at the end of their lives, their souls returning to the planet (which they called the 'Underworld') just like the current races.

What was different though is they had far, far greater personal wellsprings of aether, which is what powered their creation magic to a level far exceeding the greatest magic capable in the present day, and that even a newborn baby was capable of wielding such power inately, a scary thought.

They only became immortal beings of pure aether after Zodiark was summoned and 'rewrote the laws of nature', which a handful of Ancients became the Ascians. But back before the Terminus and the Sundering, they most definetely were mortal beings, who were born, lived and died like we do. Their lifespans were probably far greater, but still were finite.

---

We don't exactly know what the nature of things was for the Ancients. All we know is that there was a cycle of life before the Final Days. For now I'm suspecting (speculation warning: ) they did have finite lifespans for their physical bodies, but their souls were immortal, mind and memories included (maybe rediscovered when a new body grows up, like anamnesis, maybe just intact in general). Death would be an extended rest for them until their soul would eventually be reincarnate. This means in the view of society, people would be essentially immortal. It'd also explain why they'd be so willing to give their lives for a cause, only to be surprised by the fact that no, they'd not reincarnate with memories intact anymore. Only the horror of the Final Days itself would be so strong, the memory of which persisted through the sundering, thus allowing one to reclaim part of what they once could, with the Echo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vulcwen

We don't exactly know what the nature of things was for the Ancients. All we know is that there was a cycle of life before the Final Days. For now I'm suspecting (speculation warning: ) they did have finite lifespans for their physical bodies, but their souls were immortal, mind and memories included (maybe rediscovered when a new body grows up, like anamnesis, maybe just intact in general). Death would be an extended rest for them until their soul would eventually be reincarnate. This means in the view of society, people would be essentially immortal. It'd also explain why they'd be so willing to give their lives for a cause, only to be surprised by the fact that no, they'd not reincarnate with memories intact anymore. Only the horror of the Final Days itself would be so strong, the memory of which persisted through the sundering, thus allowing one to reclaim part of what they once could, with the Echo.

---

I searched a bit . their souls are definitely immortal. Ill also put some more info from the wiki of Emet https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Solus_zos_Galvus :
He remains convinced of the importance of the balance between Light and Dark and considers his people the definition of perfection while viewing the "broken" races mere imperfect parodies of his kin. He extends this contempt to his mortal grandson, Varis, having no real interest in the Empire outside its intended purpose of spreading chaos. His resentment towards Varis also stems from him resembling his firstborn son, whose death serves as a final reminder of mortal imperfection in Emet-Selch's eyes. However, he does show interest in certain mortals who underwent the Umbral Calamity numerous times.

Also inside it says they didnt rewrite the laws of nature ill copy from the wiki again :
Falling into despair when seeing their world besieged by a calamity from within, he joined his fellow Convocation members and devised a plan to halt the calamity: summon the will of the planet, the primal Zodiark. The price to accomplish this feat of summoning would be grave, and caused one member to leave in dissent. Half of their people were sacrificed to offer up the necessary aether to complete the ritual.The deity succeeded in its primary purpose, but then enthralled Hades and the others into becoming his devout followers. The Convocation resolved to sacrifice another half of their people to replenish their ruined world. Next, for Hades and the Convocation to restore the lives of those originally sacrificed, Zodiark would require even more aether; aether that would come from the new life being born into the world. This disturbed the dissenting member of the Convocation, who felt that the sacrificial costs were already too great, and that the world now belonged to the lives birthed in it. An opposing group of Amaurotians who felt similarly thus summoned Hydaelyn in opposition to Zodiark, and the resulting conflict ended with Hydaelyn's final attack shattering reality, sundering the world and nearly all life on it into the Source and its thirteen shards.


Ill try to search a bit more though im quite certain they indeed were immortal since like the wiki says he views death as an imperfection

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

I searched a bit . their souls are definitely immortal. Ill also put some more info from the wiki of Emet https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Solus_zos_Galvus :
He remains convinced of the importance of the balance between Light and Dark and considers his people the definition of perfection while viewing the "broken" races mere imperfect parodies of his kin. He extends this contempt to his mortal grandson, Varis, having no real interest in the Empire outside its intended purpose of spreading chaos. His resentment towards Varis also stems from him resembling his firstborn son, whose death serves as a final reminder of mortal imperfection in Emet-Selch's eyes. However, he does show interest in certain mortals who underwent the Umbral Calamity numerous times.

Also inside it says they didnt rewrite the laws of nature ill copy from the wiki again :
Falling into despair when seeing their world besieged by a calamity from within, he joined his fellow Convocation members and devised a plan to halt the calamity: summon the will of the planet, the primal Zodiark. The price to accomplish this feat of summoning would be grave, and caused one member to leave in dissent. Half of their people were sacrificed to offer up the necessary aether to complete the ritual.The deity succeeded in its primary purpose, but then enthralled Hades and the others into becoming his devout followers. The Convocation resolved to sacrifice another half of their people to replenish their ruined world. Next, for Hades and the Convocation to restore the lives of those originally sacrificed, Zodiark would require even more aether; aether that would come from the new life being born into the world. This disturbed the dissenting member of the Convocation, who felt that the sacrificial costs were already too great, and that the world now belonged to the lives birthed in it. An opposing group of Amaurotians who felt similarly thus summoned Hydaelyn in opposition to Zodiark, and the resulting conflict ended with Hydaelyn's final attack shattering reality, sundering the world and nearly all life on it into the Source and its thirteen shards.


Ill try to search a bit more though im quite certain they indeed were immortal since like the wiki says he views death as an imperfection

---

I'd like to say that the wiki is filled with speculation, outdated info and misinterpretation from the player perspective. The line I bolded being an example. The dissident of the convocation, or 'defector', left the convocation before they summoned Zodiark for reasons yet unknown, and we have learned little to nothing about them besides. As such, we have no idea on their stance, though it is highly likely we will learn more about them in 5.3.

ok since i dont want to keep editing the same comment ill share a bit more of my findings.
What the sundering did was split the world into 13 equal parts. It affects every single attribute of everything, this includes the soul. I also searched a bit and found out that most races can live up to 100-120 years since the ascians have 13 times that lifespan that means they can live for up to 1300-1560 years!!!
heres the link for the interview in which it is said : https://gamerescape.com/2014/10/18/f...nel-live-blog/
and heres the thing they say if you re lazy to search : The five races can live to 100-120 biologically, but most people don’t live much longer than 50. Elezen have longer lifespans.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrThinker

I'd like to say that the wiki is filled with speculation, outdated info and misinterpretation from the player perspective. The line I bolded being an example. The dissident of the convocation, or 'defector', left the convocation before they summoned Zodiark for reasons yet unknown, and we have learned little to nothing about them besides. As such, we have no idea on their stance, though it is highly likely we will learn more about them in 5.3.

---

ill go check that as well then to confirm it :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

ok since i dont want to keep editing the same comment ill share a bit more of my findings.
What the sundering did was split the world into 13 equal parts. It affects every single attribute of everything, this includes the soul. I also searched a bit and found out that most races can live up to 100-120 years since the ascians have 13 times that lifespan that means they can live for up to 1300-1560 years!!!
heres the link for the interview in which it is said : https://gamerescape.com/2014/10/18/f...nel-live-blog/
and heres the thing they say if you re lazy to search : The five races can live to 100-120 biologically, but most people don’t live much longer than 50. Elezen have longer lifespans.

---

Another thing to note, The Sundering was around 12000 years ago, so at the time of ARR, Lahabrea, Elidibus and Emet-Selch have been around for that long, and not to forget that they were already adults when the Sundering happened, so they are definitely even older.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrThinker

I'd like to say that the wiki is filled with speculation, outdated info and misinterpretation from the player perspective. The line I bolded being an example. The dissident of the convocation, or 'defector', left the convocation before they summoned Zodiark for reasons yet unknown, and we have learned little to nothing about them besides. As such, we have no idea on their stance, though it is highly likely we will learn more about them in 5.3.

---

Oh ye youre correct hythlodaeus says it was 13 at the time. The rest however is true i checked emets dialogs

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrThinker

Another thing to note, The Sundering was around 12000 years ago, so at the time of ARR, Lahabrea, Elidibus and Emet-Selch have been around for that long, and not to forget that they were already adults when the Sundering happened, so they are definitely even older.

---

they are older cause they are jumping bodies, the question i was trying to find out is if the complete people were immortal physically. Emets said they live for an age (something i was about to put on the last comment before we started talking) so i simply took the fact that the sundering just split us into 13 same fractions of ourselves and searched to find our age to get the number.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

Oh ye youre correct hythlodaeus says it was 13 at the time. The rest however is true i checked emets dialogs

---

Yes, but that is to show that the wiki isn't the best source of information, so it is better to go information directly released by square to prove your point: in-game dialogue, lore books, and interviews.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

they are older cause they are jumping bodies, the question i was trying to find out is if the complete people were immortal physically. Emets said they live for an age (something i was about to put on the last comment before we started talking) so i simply took the fact that the sundering just split us into 13 same fractions of ourselves and searched to find our age to get the number.

---

To be perfectly fair, we have no idea if the Sundering dividing us into 14 had an equal effect or exponential effect. Yes it might have divided us into 14, and thus the average body age into 14, but Emet-Selch implies with his dialogue before our journey to Eulmore that Immortality was indeed one of the aspects we lost in being sundered.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrThinker

Yes, but that is to show that the wiki isn't the best source of information, so it is better to go information directly released by square to prove your point: in-game dialogue, lore books, and interviews.

---

well i did went to check in game dialog cut me some slack , just the emet

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

well i did went to check in game dialog cut me some slack , just the emet dialogs have a total time of 2 hours , imagine if every single one of them was about ascians TwT

---

Understandable. IF possible, we'd record all the dialogue in text format for ourselves, but that gets impractical real fast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrThinker

To be perfectly fair, we have no idea if the Sundering dividing us into 14 had an equal effect or exponential effect. Yes it might have divided us into 14, and thus the average body age into 14, but Emet-Selch implies with his dialogue before our journey to Eulmore that Immortality was indeed one of the aspects we lost in being sundered.

---

I assume it is equal parts , because the aether needs to be balanced , if the aether is unbalanced then the bigger part will start flowing and corrupting the rest like its happening in the first and like it happened in the 13th.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

I assume it is equal parts , because the aether needs to be balanced , if the aether is unbalanced then the bigger part will start flowing and corrupting the rest like its happening in the first and like it happened in the 13th.

---

I more meant that if a soul with 9/14 of an Ancients soul is 9 times more powerful than a soul with 1/14, or if it is more k^n, where k is the base strength of the soul and n is the number of shards rejoined.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrThinker

I more meant that if a soul with 9/14 of an Ancients soul is 9 times more powerful than a soul with 1/14, or if it is more k^n, where k is the base strength of the soul and n is the number of shards rejoined.

---

thats just immeasurable UwU . Especially when one point of comparison is "hey i got enough aether where i can conjure anything in existence just by thinking except souls" and the other is "i can conjure 3 things and then i need to apply a technique to gather and transmute aether in order to conjure something that will stay for 20 seconds , but only if i have a point of reference to begin with".

The people of the First are not really weaker than Source people though otherwise we would beat Ranjit easily

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yuella

The people of the First are not really weaker than Source people though otherwise we would beat Ranjit easily

---

they actually are, in fact if they are 1/14 in the first in the source we are 7/14 cause there are 7 sunderings that have happened. though i maybe wrong on the exact number of sunderings that have already happened =.=. might be 6/14 cause they failed on the 13th

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

they actually are, in fact if they are 1/14 in the first in the source we are 7/14 cause there are 7 sunderings that have happened. though i maybe wrong on the exact number of sunderings that have already happened =.=. might be 6/14 cause they failed on the 13th

---

Source + 7 shards (7 calamities) = 8/14

The people on the Source have over half of the soul shards rejoined with them. For us, we also get Ardbert fusing with us in the final act, so technically we have 9/14 of a unsundered soul. But the point Yuella was making was that there seems to be no notable 'physical' difference between the people of the Source and those of the First. The only tangible difference we know of is that we could restrain the primordial light again after Ardbert rejoins with us. And somehow gaining 5 more shards (theoretically) makes us able to create things on the scale of the Amaurot illusion. Soul physics is weird.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrThinker

Source + 7 shards (7 calamities) = 8/14

The people on the Source have over half of the soul shards rejoined with them. For us, we also get Ardbert fusing with us in the final act, so technically we have 9/14 of a unsundered soul. But the point Yuella was making was that there seems to be no notable 'physical' difference between the people of the Source and those of the First. The only tangible difference we know of is that we could restrain the primordial light again after Ardbert rejoins with us. And somehow gaining 5 more shards (theoretically) makes us able to create things on the scale of the Amaurot illusion. Soul physics is weird.

---

but they have failed the first. its still there tormenting the alliance raid rlt , the world of darkness. one doesnt count

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

but they have failed the first. its still there tormenting the alliance raid rlt , the world of darkness. one doesnt count

---

The shards that have been consumed via Rejoining during the Seven Umbral Calamities are as follows: The Fifth, The Twelfth, The Second, The Third, The Sixth, The Tenth, and the Seventh.

I think it's more than just a change of mind. I forget the source here, but it's thought that the Echo functions, basically, by breaking down the barriers between the soul and the universe. This explains most of it's powers, such as blurring the distinction between the past, present and future, being able to communicate across all languages, allowing the soul to persist after death, literally "breaking your limits", etc. So with this in play what Elidibus means is, if they had a true, fully realized Echo, you would literally be able to understand and commune with each other as though you were of one mind. This would explain why the Amaurotines had such a peaceful, utopian society. Of course, it also explains the depths of the Ascian's hatred for Hydaelyn - Her power is literally to split things apart, down to the level of one's soul and even reality itself. To the Ancients, something like that must have been intrinsically anathema to their existence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

but they have failed the first. its still there tormenting the alliance raid rlt , the world of darkness. one doesnt count

---

Yes, the Thirteenth, now known as the Void/World of Darkness, was not Rejoined. This was because there was no associated calamity on the Source, because the Ascians didn't know they needed it at the time. However there have been seven subsequent umbral calamities, and thus seven rejoinings. As Rosenstrauch states:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

The shards that have been consumed via Rejoining during the Seven Umbral Calamities are as follows: The Fifth, The Twelfth, The Second, The Third, The Sixth, The Tenth, and the Seventh.

---

This info was revealed to us by Crystal Exarch during his explanation of how calamities work, where he shows the Shards and Source as orbs in a circle, implied to be First to Thirteenth going clockwise from the Source orb (the largest one).