Geomancer

So I've become embroiled in this discussion a lot lately and I'm curious. Why is it there is a mass following of Geomancer will be a healer? So I'm curious as to people's thought on this and would welcome any information to reasoning.

Geomancer was teased in the Astrologian quests in Stormblood.

In those quests the geomancer NPC you work with uses basically the white mage toolkit but with different names, and is slated as a healer. This could always change in the future, but based off what's in the game now, it would seem that's what they were setting up.

Adding to that is more speculative, but they removed the elemental spells from white mage this expansion (no more stone and wind) which opens up that spot for a geomancer healer to take them over.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Geomancer was teased in the Astrologian quests in Stormblood.

In those quests the geomancer NPC you work with uses basically the white mage toolkit but with different names, and is slated as a healer. This could always change in the future, but based off what's in the game now, it would seem that's what they were setting up.

Adding to that is more speculative, but they removed the elemental spells from white mage this expansion (no more stone and wind) which opens up that spot for a geomancer healer to take them over.

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Not removed, they still have them at lower levels.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Not removed, they still have them at lower levels.

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Fair, I was thinking only high level.

But this also could mean those spells change at lower levels during a skill rework or purge in an expansion where Geomancer is added. Only issue I can see is that the conjurer class quests are SO tied into what would be considered geomancer lore.... so that would make it tricky.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Fair, I was thinking only high level.

But this also could mean those spells change at lower levels during a skill rework or purge in an expansion where Geomancer is added. Only issue I can see is that the conjurer class quests are SO tied into what would be considered geomancer lore.... so that would make it tricky.

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What if - and I fully acknowledge that this could be a totally insane and implausible idea - with a rework they made WHM its own job centered on the less elemental spells, while conjurer went on to become Geomancer instead? Or is it possible they're considering doing away with the base classes altogether and having everything start as a job, thus removing the CNJ questline altogether?

I dunno, just a few thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Illianaro

What if - and I fully acknowledge that this could be a totally insane and implausible idea - with a rework they made WHM its own job centered on the less elemental spells, while conjurer went on to become Geomancer instead? Or is it possible they're considering doing away with the base classes altogether and having everything start as a job, thus removing the CNJ questline altogether?

I dunno, just a few thoughts.

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They don't need to remove elements from jobs either way, or rdm couldn't exist.

I don't see geomancer being a healer though.

Even with the astro quests, the Geomancers aren't healers. They use CNJ animation but only for the offensive elements, and even within the game lore there is no Geomancy healing. Just vanquishing evil spirits and purifying the land. They call it the foil to Astrologian, painting the contrast of heavenly and earthly energies, but as far as I'm aware there is actually nothing in the game where Geo heals. In the lore they're known for being powerful casters doing things like bringing down airships. I'm not saying its impossible it just does seem to fit when you look at the job as a whole within and without the game's lore.

People think Geomancer is a healer because healers are desperate for another healer class. That and Kyokohu uses placeholder conjurer animations in the quest. But other than that one animation (reminder, placeholder) nothing in the 14 story has a Geo healer, just casters.

Also Conjurer story does work for Geomancer lore considering the 1.0 datamining found Geomancer as a branch off of conjurer. So it was intended, just not implemented. Plus the feng shui roots approach is going to be so much better than healing the Twelveswood.

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Originally Posted by Illianaro

What if - and I fully acknowledge that this could be a totally insane and implausible idea - with a rework they made WHM its own job centered on the less elemental spells, while conjurer went on to become Geomancer instead? Or is it possible they're considering doing away with the base classes altogether and having everything start as a job, thus removing the CNJ questline altogether?

I dunno, just a few thoughts.

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Yoshi has stated in many interviews how much he wants to get rid of the starter classes. So I assume this will be happening at some point.

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Originally Posted by Illianaro

What if - and I fully acknowledge that this could be a totally insane and implausible idea - with a rework they made WHM its own job centered on the less elemental spells, while conjurer went on to become Geomancer instead? Or is it possible they're considering doing away with the base classes altogether and having everything start as a job, thus removing the CNJ questline altogether?

I dunno, just a few thoughts.

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All jobs added in the future will be standalone jobs without starting classes.

They also stated after the Arcanist -> Summoner/Scholar split, they aren't ever doing any more split jobs based on the same class. They really struggled to balance scholar and summoner with other jobs as well as with each other since they were both based off a dps class.

That bit asside, making the shift so that conjurers become Geomancers would require them to change all of the white mage cutscenes and animations, along with creating the new cutscenes and animations for the goemancer job quests.

That's honestly a lot of work when they could just make Geomancer its own new job with new lore and a new combat style.

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Originally Posted by Cinno

All jobs added in the future will be standalone jobs without starting classes.

They also stated after the Arcanist -> Summoner/Scholar split, they aren't ever doing any more split jobs based on the same class. They really struggled to balance scholar and summoner with other jobs as well as with each other since they were both based off a dps class.

That bit asside, making the shift so that conjurers become Geomancers would require them to change all of the white mage cutscenes and animations, along with creating the new cutscenes and animations for the goemancer job quests.

That's honestly a lot of work when they could just make Geomancer its own new job with new lore and a new combat style.

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I'm hoping they just take the framework from the Geomancers from Swallow's Compass and Heaven on High for the casting animations. Would be easy to add more of tweak depending on races considering the mud spirits are already humanlike.

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Originally Posted by SeikishiYuuki

Even with the astro quests, the Geomancers aren't healers. They use CNJ animation but only for the offensive elements, and even within the game lore there is no Geomancy healing. Just vanquishing evil spirits and purifying the land. They call it the foil to Astrologian, painting the contrast of heavenly and earthly energies, but as far as I'm aware there is actually nothing in the game where Geo heals. In the lore they're known for being powerful casters doing things like bringing down airships. I'm not saying its impossible it just does seem to fit when you look at the job as a whole within and without the game's lore.

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In the level 70 quest, the geomancer has three spells.

Qi of Air - this is the same as aero from white mage
Qi of Earth - this is the same as stone
Qi of Water - this one is actually a cure spell.

So in the game, there is a precedent of geomancers having healing magic.

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

I'm hoping they just take the framework from the Geomancers from Swallow's Compass and Heaven on High for the casting animations. Would be easy to add more of tweak depending on races considering the mud spirits are already humanlike.

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Wouen;t be surprised if the job turns out to be basedonn the Taisui's brand of geomancy instead of the one showcased in the AST quests.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Wouen;t be surprised if the job turns out to be basedonn the Taisui's brand of geomancy instead of the one showcased in the AST quests.

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What brand of Geomancy was showcased in the quest though? All he did was a couple of placeholder animations, a quest revolving around a barrier spell that needed assistance because Geomancy alone couldn’t fix it. Or if we are talking about the fake Geomancers doing divination stuff for money. I assume Kyokohu would practice the same Geomancy as his grandfather, who often held council with a group of mainland Geomancers, I guess I should brush up on my reading if there are two different veins of Geo schools! I very well could have missed something though!

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

What brand of Geomancy was showcased in the quest though? All he did was a couple of placeholder animations, a quest revolving around a barrier spell that needed assistance because Geomancy alone couldn’t fix it. Or if we are talking about the fake Geomancers doing divination stuff for money. I assume Kyokohu would practice the same Geomancy as his grandfather, who often held council with a group of mainland Geomancers, I guess I should brush up on my reading if there are two different veins of Geo schools! I very well could have missed something though!

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Imust clarify a bit. I'm of the opinion that the Geomancers in HoH/Compass use different techniques then Kuokohu and that as such SE would look to them as inspiration for the job instead of him and his grandfather, especially if they were to make the job as caster instead of a helaer, let along a one associated with AST or CNJ in anyway beyond the use of the elements, as the taisuis are not shown to be healers in the areas they're found in.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Imust clarify a bit. I'm of the opinion that the Geomancers in HoH/Compass use different techniques then Kuokohu and that as such SE would look to them as inspiration for the job instead of him and his grandfather, especially if they were to make the job as caster instead of a helaer, let along a one associated with AST or CNJ in anyway beyond the use of the elements, as the taisuis are not shown to be healers in the areas they're found in.

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Okay I got you! I was racking my brain because I spend so much time looking into it. The Tai sui are basically mud golems created by the Yanxian Geomancers that are generally under the control of the Doman king (along with the Samurai and Ninja). So that is definitely the route I would hope/expect the class to come out as!

Square has a ton of FF games to use as reference for a Geomancer class, even outside of XI. FFTA2, FFEX, I'd say take elements from all of them and make something grand. Honestly, there's nothing stopping them from just being foreign Geomancers from one of the regions we haven't been to yet or even from the First or another Shard. Between that and the actual in-game differences we've seen between Geomancers, if they really want the class in the game they'll have it in the game.

Geomancer is hinted at in the lvl 80 quest. The geomancer character comes to Ishgard to let you know that he will be starting up a school for new Geomancy and Leveva finds it weird that he came all that way to tell us this. That sounds like a heavy hint.

http://i.imgur.com/B10G1Xc.png

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Originally Posted by Leidolf

or even from the First or another Shard.

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Yeah I don't think the devs want another repeat of HW jobs where they are locked by the MSQ, and the logistics of a refugee ofanother world winding up on the Source and teaching their art there seems like a herculean task for the writers

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Originally Posted by Leidolf

Square has a ton of FF games to use as reference for a Geomancer class, even outside of XI. FFTA2, FFEX, I'd say take elements from all of them and make something grand. Honestly, there's nothing stopping them from just being foreign Geomancers from one of the regions we haven't been to yet or even from the First or another Shard. Between that and the actual in-game differences we've seen between Geomancers, if they really want the class in the game they'll have it in the game.

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What differences between in game Geomancers? The ones that are actually Geomancers and the ones scamming for money? We don't have anything saying there are different brands of Geomancy running around.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Yeah I don't think the devs want another repeat of HW jobs where they are locked by the MSQ, and the logistics of a refugee ofanother world winding up on the Source and teaching their art there seems like a herculean task for the writers

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That and every new job that comes out starts off in one of the Big Three on Eorzea anyway, that seems like a lot of effort to put in "Geomancer X teleported to Gridania just to spread the word". Especially when there are actual Geomancers (and a school for them having been opened) on our shard itself.

I’m on board with a GEO, healer would be neat, I’d love to see it manipulate weather and terrain even it’s just a simple Aura like in FFXI and their Loupins. Stuff happens within that bubble. I made a small concept a while back where it uses weather patterns to disrupt the terrain and hinder foes / help, heal, buff allies.

But I have a feeling maybe SE may add them in 5.5 and surprise us! #wishfulthinking

I think GEO is incredibly lame as a concept. You know how in ShB they nerfed a bunch of things in certain job's base kit and then just gave it back to them via traits? GEO feels like doing that, but for literally an entire job.

Taking away WHM elemental abilities just so you can get reintroduced a job that we've already covered thematically. Doesn't that sound kinda lazy? I'd prefer whatever new job we get to explore new territory.

Geomancers in 14 lore are just what conjurers are called in the east. They use the same type of magic so it is unlikely we will see them as a new class

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Originally Posted by spf1200

Geomancers in 14 lore are just what conjurers are called in the east. They use the same type of magic so it is unlikely we will see them as a new class

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I believe this argument has been debated in every post that deals with Geomancy so I won't give the reasons why that is not really true anymore but we will just have to wait and see.

If we do see Geomancer - setting aside lore that can be re-written - it will likely be a DPS class. I also foresee Time Mage being the healer accompanying it - if, in fact, we do get a new healer. That's my thoughts on the matter and I'm sticking to it. They ripped the elemental theme out of WHM, and time from AST. Could be nothing. Could end up being exactly what I said.

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Originally Posted by spf1200

Geomancers in 14 lore are just what conjurers are called in the east. They use the same type of magic so it is unlikely we will see them as a new class

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This is 100% not true.

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

I think GEO is incredibly lame as a concept. You know how in ShB they nerfed a bunch of things in certain job's base kit and then just gave it back to them via traits? GEO feels like doing that, but for literally an entire job.

Taking away WHM elemental abilities just so you can get reintroduced a job that we've already covered thematically. Doesn't that sound kinda lazy? I'd prefer whatever new job we get to explore new territory.

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I mean they have been datamining Geomancer stuff since 1.0, and it's no lamer a concept then any of the other classes. I mean you have people playing Samurai, Monk, Paladin....

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

I mean they have been datamining Geomancer stuff since 1.0, and it's no lamer a concept then any of the other classes. I mean you have people playing Samurai, Monk, Paladin....

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I don't really see how that's relevant. Quick 2-hand sword, punch and kick, sword and board. They're not in the slightest similar in presentation.

As far as we know with GEO, it's CNJ+ in presentation: Earth, wind, water. Something we already have, or at least we had.

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Originally Posted by spf1200

Geomancers in 14 lore are just what conjurers are called in the east. They use the same type of magic so it is unlikely we will see them as a new class

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Jeez, did you even do AST 70-80?

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

I don't really see how that's relevant. Quick 2-hand sword, punch and kick, sword and board. They're not in the slightest similar in presentation.

As far as we know with GEO, it's CNJ+ in presentation: Earth, wind, water. Something we already have, or at least we had.



Jeez, did you even do AST 70-80?

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It’s relevant because you said the concept was lame. When we have stuff like the three I stated. I wasn’t comparing them to eachother, or wondering what the concepts were. Thinking a theme is interesting is subjective, I find the concept of punching a boss boring, samurai, overplayed. So it’s all up to each person I guess.

I know a lot of people expect them to be healer cause of the npc appearance but personally I think they'd be either dps caster or melee (they'd be a sort of melee magic wielder) based on their appearance in other ff titles.

To me something makes Geomancers unique visually is their use of vines, plants, water, lava, and sand among other things. Many of them certainly fall under the various elements as far as damage type but are still a refreshing break from the overlapping spell themes of most casters.

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

It’s relevant because you said the concept was lame. When we have stuff like the three I stated. I wasn’t comparing them to eachother, or wondering what the concepts were. Thinking a theme is interesting is subjective, I find the concept of punching a boss boring, samurai, overplayed. So it’s all up to each person I guess.

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My mistake if that's how I came across then. I'm totally fine with nature mage. It's certainly a fine theme.

The part that I think is lame is just retreading ground we've already covered. That's what I was trying to say when I mentioned the nerf/regain through traits thing. We already have nature mage with CNJ/WHM up to level 70.

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

I don't really see how that's relevant. Quick 2-hand sword, punch and kick, sword and board. They're not in the slightest similar in presentation.

As far as we know with GEO, it's CNJ+ in presentation: Earth, wind, water. Something we already have, or at least we had.

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He's "somewhat" correct, if you compare staff vs bells, in the same way you compared 2hand sword vs 1 hand sword. (DRK would be the better example, as its 2hand sword vs 2hand sword, knight vs eastern knight. Granted both are only SAM/DRK in name)
But I also agree, the general theme feels too similar, and I honestly feel that way about all 3 healers. (and to a degree, all 4 tanks)

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

It’s relevant because you said the concept was lame.

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Its not that GEO is lame in a vacuum. It's only when you look at how we currently have something so similar, and theres tons of other themes we still lack. (And we will never get them. So realistically, we should only be looking at reskinned WHMs anyways, since thats all we'll ever be allowed to have in MMOs)

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Its not that GEO is lame in a vacuum. It's only when you look at how we currently have something so similar, and theres tons of other themes we still lack. (And we will never get them. So realistically, we should only be looking at reskinned WHMs anyways, since thats all we'll ever be allowed to have in MMOs)

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I think the issue is that you guys lack any and all imagination. Geo MUST be exactly like white mage, any earth magic MUST be throwing a stone. Geo in tactics could cause sand and snow storms, summon will-o'-the-wisps, entangling ivy, magma, pitfalls, etc. There is a lot you can do with the idea of "the elements". The real issue comes from the role itself and how the obsessive need for balance has limited what they can actually do. Whatever healer you get, it's going to have a small heal, a big heal, an aoe heal, 3 dps moves and a small gimmick flavored around whatever class they chose because it can't be any better or worse than the others. They could certainly make geomancer feel unique despite using similar elements, but I don't think we'll be getting anything special from any new class they add anymore.

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Originally Posted by GrumbleBeard

I think the issue is that you guys lack any and all imagination. Geo MUST be exactly like white mage, any earth magic MUST be throwing a stone. Geo in tactics could cause sand and snow storms, summon will-o'-the-wisps, entangling ivy, magma, pitfalls, etc. There is a lot you can do with the idea of "the elements". The real issue comes from the role itself and how the obsessive need for balance has limited what they can actually do. Whatever healer you get, it's going to have a small heal, a big heal, an aoe heal, 3 dps moves and a small gimmick flavored around whatever class they chose because it can't be any better or worse than the others. They could certainly make geomancer feel unique despite using similar elements, but I don't think we'll be getting anything special from any new class they add anymore.

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In an interview before Stormblood launched and the jobs were shown, Yoshi had talked about how he had an Onmyuji conjurer caster in the works, that eventually got pushed aside for red mage (akin to Viera not coming with Heavensward). Of course every site that interview was on now leads to a 404 error.

But given that and the actual story of Geomancer in the game and in the lorebook, they have shown nothing having to do with white mage outside of being aligned with Umbral elements. They have focused on the actual name of the job, Feng Shui Warrior.

Like I always say, if you want a vague basis on what the animations could be, look at the Tai Sui in Yanxia/Ruby Sea, doesn't look very white mage to me. Plus it's not like Ganen, founder of Geomancy with the human races (he learned it from the Tengu), and first king of Doma was known as a kind man healing his way across Yanxia to unite the people. No he was a master mage and swordsman, who conquered his way to unity.

Grumblebeard is right, use your brain, they aren't going to put in a white mage reskin.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Its not that GEO is lame in a vacuum. It's only when you look at how we currently have something so similar, and theres tons of other themes we still lack. (And we will never get them. So realistically, we should only be looking at reskinned WHMs anyways, since thats all we'll ever be allowed to have in MMOs)

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It's about as different from white mage as summoner is from scholar. I'm just sad that arcanist got the split and conjurer never got it's, that was found in 1.0. Would have loved to see "Landshift" and totems back then. So at one point they did think they are similar enough to come from the same line, but different enough to still think of releasing.

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Originally Posted by GrumbleBeard

I think the issue is that you guys lack any and all imagination. Geo MUST be exactly like white mage, any earth magic MUST be throwing a stone. Geo in tactics could cause sand and snow storms, summon will-o'-the-wisps, entangling ivy, magma, pitfalls, etc. There is a lot you can do with the idea of "the elements". The real issue comes from the role itself and how the obsessive need for balance has limited what they can actually do. Whatever healer you get, it's going to have a small heal, a big heal, an aoe heal, 3 dps moves and a small gimmick flavored around whatever class they chose because it can't be any better or worse than the others. They could certainly make geomancer feel unique despite using similar elements, but I don't think we'll be getting anything special from any new class they add anymore.

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did u mean to quote me? i dont feel ive given off the impression i was of a differing opinion to what u said.

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

It's about as different from white mage as summoner is from scholar. I'm just sad that arcanist got the split and conjurer never got it's, that was found in 1.0. Would have loved to see "Landshift" and totems back then. So at one point they did think they are similar enough to come from the same line, but different enough to still think of releasing.

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I agree, I find those two too similar as well. But Im fine if they are split from the same class, as it would then make sense. (in this case, if GEO was split from CNJ, but something else, like a caster DPS or something)

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

they aren't going to put in a white mage reskin.

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If the new healer uses robes, doesnt either melee, or primarily rely on a physical ranged weapon, has cast bars for their heals, and has no other mechanics that healers currently lack (such as a full time GCD reduction, like constant 2s GCD w/o spell speed. or combos, where cures lead into other cures, w/o procs, etc)
then its just a reskinned WHM. But we all know its going to be a reskinned WHM with a gimmick, like SCH is WHM with a fairy, and AST is WHM with cards.
It will be WHM with X.
And since GEOs primary gimmick is the terrain they stand on, it doest seem "likely" GEOs gimmick would happen, which only makes ppl assume its even more likely to just be WHM w/o gimmick X. (EDIT: this only applies if the new healer was GEO)

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

I agree, I find those two too similar as well. But Im fine if they are split from the same class, as it would then make sense. (in this case, if GEO was split from CNJ, but something else, like a caster DPS or something)

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It was intended to come out as the damage equivalent of white mage. I don't know why anyone would ever want it as a healer

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

It was intended

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Debatable. While I'm "mostly" of this opinion as well, it could honestly go either way. Its hard to say if SE intended either, since theres enough to suggest either. So I can only just make an assumption, to which me and you share this assumption.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Debatable. While I'm "mostly" of this opinion as well, it could honestly go either way. Its hard to say if SE intended either, since theres enough to suggest either. So I can only just make an assumption, to which me and you share this assumption.

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I just keep telling myself that they generally keep class/job coded monsters in dungeons in line with what their roles are in game. Like if you see a cnj/whm/thm/blm/marauder (forgot the abbreviation for it) coded thing in a dungeon or the world, it's going to do exactly what you expect it to, cnj/whm is gonna Cure/Ronkan Cure, thm/blm is gonna cast thunder/fire/blizz etc. And we have two dungeons with Geomancers that don't have access to a single healing option.

That is true that at the base of it all, new healers are just whm reskins with gimmicks. I really hope they give the healer community something good with 6.0, or at least interesting.
I know we share assumptions and opinions usually I'm just word vomitting on a saturday morning!