DRK fast paced Blood Weapon + Delirium

Greetings fellow Dark Knights,

after some testing and figuring out different combinations and design mechanics like mana regen stop, gauge gain etc. I've settled with 2 versions I'm actually quite satisfied with.

1st version:

Blood Weapon provides 5% haste bonus, and 5 Blood+200MP/GCD. Starting duration is 20s.
Darkness/Shadow actions increase the duration by 10s, cost remains 3k MP, but reduced potency by ~30% (e.g. 350 pot EoS).
Delirium provides 50 Blood and 3k MP. Also increases haste bonus to 10% for 10s. Recast 120s, so the 50 Blood gain can be used for Living Shadow at lvl 80, or for an additional Bloodspiller pre-80.
Because the Delirium mana bonus on Bloodspiller is lost, Bloodspiller now provides 200MP.
Darkside still active, either as a 2nd bonus from Darkness/Shadow actions or via trait, or all actions recieve a 10% potency increase.

The rotation map shows: 7 CPM on every Souleater combo skill, 5 CPM on Bloodspiller, 6 CPM on EoS. Combo CPM is closer to SB and HW. EoS' CPM is slightly higher than DarkArts in HW was, but still waaay lower than in SB. Yet Bloodspiller still keeps its relative high CPM at 5, down from 6.

2nd version:

My personal favorite. BW grants 10% haste, 200MP/GCD, but gauge bonus has been removed! Also starts at 20s duration.
Darkness/Shadow actions increase the duration by 10s, mana cost increased by 20% (to 3.6k MP), potency also reduced by 30% (e.g. 350 pot EoS). Bloodspiller + ~10% potency.
Because BW already has the 10% haste, Delirium just gives Blood and MP, for the same reasons and usage as in the 1st version.
The duration increase is necessary, as the casts per minutes have gone down. It's also more comfy than the 1st version, but can still be punishing if you mess up your mana management and got greedy by overusing EoS at some point. Not as punishing as old Darkside used to be, that's something of the past.
Darkside/10% damage buff still necessary.
Note: at first. I was against the 10% haste, as it might cause clipping problems during double-weaves. But the 10% haste proved to be more solid -and because BW is now a sustained buff- the little clipping ain't that much of a deal. Additionally, as the "mana burst" has been removed or greatly reduced, mana overcapping is improbable, and single-weaving becomes possible.

CPM on the rotation map: 8 CPM for every Souleater combo skill, 2.7 CPM for Bloodspiller, 5.3 CPM on EoS. Combo CPM is higher than it ever was -no wonder, with permanent 10% haste- Bloodspiller CPM has gone down to SB numbers, but has more impact (+10% potency), should be more enjoyable. EoS CPM is reeeaaally close to HW DarkArts CPM numbers... well, minus the Dark Passanger numbers.

I still believe there is more to do, so that DRK might get its image of an advanced tank back, through e.g. another combo (finisher *cough* -old Delirium-), a strong dot (that doesn't appear in form of a pet), and imho old Dark Arts HAS to come back. Dark Arts was probably the most unique way of buffing your damage. No other job in this game used a design for buffing GCDs in a way as DRK did. But there are enough jobs that deal damage by spaming simple damage buttons -SAM Hissatsu: Shinten; MCH Ricochet/Gauss Round; DNC Feathers- we need more unique jobs, less streamlined. (Also, less DelIRium-1-button-burst-spam.)

Old - 04-20-2020

if you followed recent DRK threads you noticed that most DRK players are not satisfied with the Shadowbringers changes, especially on Delirium, myself included.
I don't want to repeat every argument others have already given, you probably have read those anyway.

Previous DRK iterations fit this scheme of a "gotta go fast" GCD-based the most, and I want to present some suggestions to BW and Delirium how it might look like if we revert some of the changes done in 5.0.

First of all, Dark side in its current form removed.
https://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/lds/...56cd8e4b1e.png
Blood Weapon (BW) bonus halved (from 10 blood to 5, and mana gain from 600 to 300), but now it also reduces weaponskill and spell recast time by 5%.
Similar to DRG's Blood of the Dragon, BW's duration can be increased up to 30s.
Its duration is increased by 5s every time Edge of Darkness/Shadow (EoS) or Flood of Darkness/Shadow (FoS) is used.
E/FoS mana cost reduced to 2400, potencies adjusted.
(obviously, TBN mana cost also reduced to 2400)

The goal is to grant a permanent BW buff, constantly gaining blood and mana. On lower levels (pre-Delirium), it will probably be impossible to keep up BW for 60s - before applying it again, but still close to. Anyway, onto the Delirium changes.

https://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/lds/...c5d3faf04a.png
(Nit-pick: rename it to Blood Delirium(BD), just like in every other language...)

A simple change: Increases BW duration by 10s, and grants you Dark Arts (DA) or 2400 mana. Can only be executed while under the effect of BW. Recast: 90/120s

A more "complex" change: Enter BD, holding BW duration for 10s, similar to Life of the Dragon. E/FoS have no cost, but don't increase BW duration either. During BD, you don't gain the mana bonus from BW, but blood generation and GCD recast reduction is doubled (to 10 blood, and 10%). Can only be executed while under the effect of BW. Recast:120s

With these changes BW should gain 100% uptime when played right. Even tho the mana and blood generation is reduced, through its longer duration, BW effectiveness is more than doubled. The increased GCD and E/FoS casts should make up for the lost damage from Darkside.
The reduced mana cost for TBN and E/FoS, and reduced potency also makes TBN less of a huge gamble. While at best dps-neutral, you lose effectively 550 pot ST. These changes make TBN more available, and easier to cope with a loss.
Now, why not 10% like the old BW? I believe this would just cause too much clipping. Even when your distance/connection to servers was great, old BW almost always caused GCD to clip when double-weaving. While it wasn't that of a huge problem, it still felt frustrating (like NIN clipping GCDs when using Mudra pre-5.1).

Thanks for reading.
tl;dr: Change BW + Delirium into a full uptime 5-10% Huton + (5 blood+)200 mana/GCD

this suggestion remember me to much to old HW drk where you whole kit work to keep darkside up, the most active you was the most easy you have it to keep everything going smoothly wich was so good. the changes of delirium are like adding a touch of SB to this wich i apreciate and the sinergy betwen buffs are well made.

i like it and most importantly will make DRK not being a dead job every time he trow all his stuff, my personal suggestion is make blood delirium have a shorter recast, long recast are painfully boring especially if you don't have anything to cover in middle and DRK have already living shadow covering the 120s window, a 60s recast would make it much more active, DRK will need something more on his interplay but its a good start.

Thanks for your praise :)

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Originally Posted by shao32

i like it and most importantly will make DRK not being a dead job every time he trow all his stuff

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This was my goal here, DRK in HW never really used to "burst" like other jobs. It was unique, and worked well enough, even when their abilities were shifting. I wanted to revive this concept to replace "Unga-Bunga 2.0".

The the recast part... I'm not sure either... I agree 120s recast does indeed overlap with Living Shadow. Might be good, might be bad. Maybe 90s like current version, for an always shifting, interessting burst window. Should the recast be reduced to 60s, I would prefer it replaces BW via trait. Otherwise we just end up using both abilities in a row, which seems rather unnecessary.

Note, I just gave some effect ideas for BloodDelirium - not all should be included, or should changed to ensure an enjoyable playstyle without lacking in dps, or vice versa. Honestly, right now I can't really tell what would go well. If I got some free time on my hands, I'll try to simulate different combinations, and how they work in a rotation.

Lastly, on E/FoS "spaming" - if this gets too annoying (like DA spam in SB), the simple solution would be to increase mana cost, potency and BW duration extension respectively.

After reading this got me like...

https://media.giphy.com/media/dyLlCJ...7wjT/giphy.gif

You're replacing 1 "spam this 1 button until you can't anymore" with another version, and this version you suggested is basically spamming 1 button like you were a caster DPS with the changes you proposed, which Dark Knight mains might as well be playing Black Mage at that point since all Black Mages they do is spam Fire IV until they can't anymore, and people who play tank expect to play like a melee DPS with multiple interesting gameplay gimmicks to make them not be a blue DPS, not to say that the change suggested is bad, but comes off as just replacing the Bloodspiller spam with Edge of Shadow spam...


And it doesn't really address that you're still spamming Souleater combo while waiting for other cooldowns to be ready, like many other DRK change suggestion threads...


As for removing Darkside, just make it a separate button so that the devs don't get the "bright idea" to lock Blood Weapon activation behind Edge/Flood of Darkness/Shadow like they did with Darkside...

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

As for removing Darkside, just make it a separate button so that the devs don't get the "bright idea" to lock Blood Weapon activation behind Edge/Flood of Darkness/Shadow like they did with Darkside...

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In my opinion, Darkside as it is right now or was in HW/SB has lost its purpose.
Apparently, the Devs don't want the mana drain from HW. It could've been a trait in SB (or even now), as it didn't fall off when you reached 0 mana, and you lost more in turning DS off instead of keeping it on. DS was turned on before the fight, and kept active during the fight - except for downtime if it was long enough to recover more than 600 mana, or gain through Refresh/Ewer.
DS rn is so simple, you could actually increase all potencies by 10% across the board, or gain a trait at lvl 30, and it would change nothing. It's just the Devs wanting to keep the name "Darkside" for... lore or something? Just like they kept "Dark Arts", now gained from TBN for a "free E/FoS".

I don't really get your rant. I never said, I want to suggest another combo, but change BW and Delirium design because I detest DRK Unga-Bunga. Just like WAR, DRK ends up even using more BloodSpiller than E/FoS. So, if anything gets spamed rn, it's BS. Even DA used to get spamed more often than that. (ratio DA 7: SE combo 5: BS 2)

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

In my opinion, Darkside as it is right now or was in HW/SB has lost its purpose.
Apparently, the Devs don't want the mana drain from HW. It could've been a trait in SB (or even now), as it didn't fall off when you reached 0 mana, and you lost more in turning DS off instead of keeping it on. DS was turned on before the fight, and kept active during the fight - except for downtime if it was long enough to recover more than 600 mana, or gain through Refresh/Ewer.
DS rn is so simple, you could actually increase all potencies by 10% across the board, or gain a trait at lvl 30, and it would change nothing. It's just the Devs wanting to keep the name "Darkside" for... lore or something? Just like they kept "Dark Arts", now gained from TBN for a "free E/FoS".

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Fair enough. Especially with the last 2 sentences.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

I don't really get your rant.

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This is reduntant because of what you say next.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

I never said, I want to suggest another combo, but change BW and Delirium design because I detest DRK Unga-Bunga. Just like WAR, DRK ends up even using more BloodSpiller than E/FoS. So, if anything gets spamed rn, it's BS.

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It's still spamming 1 other button but way more frequently, and actually makes it less interesting

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

Even DA used to get spamed more often than that. (ratio DA 7: SE combo 5: BS 2)

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In Stormblood; Yes it did get spammed more often because of Syphon Strike, which only added more damage and no other additional effect. Which was only better used on Bloodspiller(especially if you TBN was successfully proced), Souleater while in tank stance for extra healing,(which is whole other rant in of itself because of certain Bloodbath not baked into DRK toolkit in Stormblood but that's the short version) and Power Slash when not in tank stance(which was generally the result of DPS not using aggro dumps but Diversion was still pretty bad, because it would have worked better as a toggle instead of a cooldown but it was still better to use Dark Arts on Power Slash was better than Dark Arts on Syphon Strike) and in Dungeons Dark Arts Spam was worse due to Abyssal Drain spam, because Unleash did basically no damage in Stormblood(which they eventually fixed with Quietus and making Sole Survivor go off once it feel off albeit weaker than if the target was killed before it fell off but still good before going for the "dumbing down the class" approach in this expansion).

In Heavensward; Dark Arts Spam was only really bad in Dungeons and could be alleviated with Dark Arts+Dark Passenger and Dark Art+Dark Dance for basically 15 seconds of dodging most attacks(and Sole Survivor was more bloat than help during this time frame), but the devs doubled down on Dark Arts spam in Stormblood with Syphon Strike and removal of Dark Dance.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

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Hm, okay, I gotcha now. And yes, I agree that my suggestions would lead to ~10 CPM of E/FoS if you wanna keep BW up. That would end up just as the same amount of DA like in SB. I would increase the duration extension to 10s, and lower the mana gain even further, so that (without BD) it would round up at ~4 CPM. With BD - depending on its recast time - E/FoS should end up with ~7 CPM - which again should be close-to equal with HardSlash/SythonStrike/SoulEater CPM. I'll have to look into it, and change the mana gain in the OP accordingly, once I've done that. It may be necessary to increase BW max duration, too.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

Hm, okay, I gotcha now. And yes, I agree that my suggestions would lead to ~10 CPM of E/FoS if you wanna keep BW up. That would end up just as the same amount of DA like in SB. I would increase the duration extension to 10s, and lower the mana gain even further, so that (without BD) it would round up at ~4 CPM. With BD - depending on its recast time - E/FoS should end up with ~7 CPM - which again should be close-to equal with HardSlash/SythonStrike/SoulEater CPM. I'll have to look into it, and change the mana gain in the OP accordingly, once I've done that. It may be necessary to increase BW max duration, too.

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Did you also factor in enrage timers? Because lowering resource gain will always be a bad idea for enrage timers and people will need to rely on higher ilvl gear to clear or wait for "The Echo" buff to be available which is leading to balancing issues for early, mid, late, and end game encounters and pruning of abilities/removing job identity to begin(RANT: something I didn't consider until after reading some complaining about it because of Thornemarch having some kind of glitch/bug with the add phase in the general discussion thread but "The Echo" buff seems to play a big part in overall balancing issues that the devs just don't address because they don't want to admit they are wrong but this is my "conspiracy theory mode" ranting about balance changes with "The Echo" buff)

As for the CPM; I would make it so that Edge of Shadow, Bloodspiller, and Carve and Spit are up at least every 30 seconds, but this is more into combo action territory and you said you didn't want more combos for DRK, but I think adding more combos to DRK kit might be the only way to give it some sense of identity again, albeit focusing burst damage combos with Dark Arts adding and additional effect to certain parts of the different burst damage combos.

Delirium + BW in SB:
https://i.imgur.com/vhZvg7D.png


Delirium + BW in ShB:
https://i.imgur.com/PdEMPSO.png

Really my problem is blood weapon and delirium. Those needs to be a top priority. Abyssal Drain needs to be 30s cooldown. Most likely need expansion blood weapon will get the ninja treatment.

Salted Earth I see this skill getting removed next expansion.

SE listened to the non-DRK players when making 5.0's iteration of DRK, and that's gotten more people to play it than in the past.

6.0 won't be anything but more of the same. The move into 6.0 for DRK is just gonna wind up like the move into 5.0 for WAR: more of the same, but less fulfilling than before.

I don't think that current DRK pick rate have anything to do with how the gameplay is but more about the whole marketing around It, on the raiding scenario is more about TBN and his memes that anything else, everywhere i look they complaing about how the job plays specially for the Blood weapon and delirium changes.

I just hope they don't trow all the veterans Who loved the true DRK for a bunch of sprouds that jump on the job bcs become the "Warrior" of darkness and have no clue on how really was.

As someone that has played DRK pretty well since its inception, I can say that I much prefer its current iteration to the fustercluck of dark arts spam that was its original identity. Having to continuously mash the same button is about as far from engaging gameplay as you can get. My only real qualms with it as it currently functions are the same issues taken up with the tank role in general: not enough damage, insufficient self-sustain.

A) I like what the ost proposed, also Drk needs more gcds.

B) hi bloodspiller-o-Tron #2948423921

C) do we know that eos/fos is raw damage dark arts that cost 3k mana?

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Originally Posted by PeacefulEdge

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A) thanks, and agreed

B) true

C) That's actually what baffles me. I remember DRK used to have a mana pool of 9480 MP, and DA cost was 2400 MP. If we take the mana regen before pull into mind, and the pre-used DA, your mana pool practically started at ~9600 MP. So, DA was ~140 potency on ~25% of your starting mana pool, and no MP regen outside of BW and SythonS. TBN also only granted 20% on self, and 10% on others, and no 20% passive mitigation (unless MT stayed on tank stance). Rather easy to break, and even if it didn't break - just as unlikely as it may've been - it was "only" 140 potency lost - even with Darkside and (removed) Slashing debuff in mind, it's still just ~170 pot. The longer BW duration, shorter recast, AND the GCD recast reduction + AA mana regen also provided for immense mana restoration. (Also, a broken TBN was a gain if it was used for Bloodspiller in Grit. But no-one stayed in Grit, so... eh...)
Since ShB DRK has its natural mana regen back, and starts at 10k MP just like every other job. 3k mana on EoS/FoS means that the cost has increased from 25% to 30%, and while we get the natural mana regen of 4k mana/min, BW and Delirium mana gain has been reduced drastically. Additionally, pot/mana has been up'ed by 200%, as well as TBN shield amount PLUS the passive 20% damage reduction on tank mastery trait.
So, in conclusion/tl;dr: The amount of DA/TBN uses have been reduced/cost increased -> more valuable, the pot/mana has been increased -> more valuable, TBN shield amount+passive mitigation increased -> way more risky. Making TBN more risky while also increasing "DA"/EoS/FoS damage portion was a bad move imo.

Yes, yes, I know, "if you use it when you have to, there is no loss, and the mitigation is your reward". I've heard that far too often.
But why limiting it to those moments? Why waiting e.g. 2 whole minutes until we can use it w/o losing 550 pot (Darkside buff included). I can use Nascent Flash or Raw Inutition without lost, and still have it ready at 2 min, even at a "no-burst" window NF does SOMETHING. Same with Intervention/Sheltron and Heart of Stone.
If the shield was easier to break, or - if it doesn't break - the damage lost wouldn't be so high, I would be more willing to take the risk.
Again, it just baffles me that in an expansion, where everything has been made so easy that you can't lose anything e.g. buffs anymore, but DRK is the only job with such a harsh mitigation design... that doesn't fit.
Remember NIN bunshin being on a fixed duration, and they lost valuable GCDs because they had to fit Mudras in between? They fixed that.
Meanwhile BW is still prone to lag/ping. (I just hope they fix SOME issues in 5.3, but I doubt it, they didn't mention anything the last LL.)

I really like the idea but the mana cost reminds me of good old dark arts spam... (maybe i'm wrong). Fast paced is cool but fast paced & spammy is worse imo (maybe it's just me).
Dont get me wrong DA looked cool, but not when you see and hear it too much. God i can still remember that sound ;-;

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Originally Posted by Juzjuzz

I really like the idea but the mana cost reminds me of good old dark arts spam... (maybe i'm wrong).

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No, you are exactly right. At first, it was my intention to "revert" those Shadow skills to DA values (to ensure more possible usages of TBN/EoS/FoS), but currently - after doing some rotation mappings with CPM and such - I almost certain, it would be better to even increase the mana cost - to lower the CPM of these Shadow skills. But what amount? I am not sure yet. I've done 2-3 different versions before I started with a new, more promising version, away from DA cost value.

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spammy is worse imo

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I admit, my first post was more like "just throwing some cool ideas into the room". I still think it's better than what we currently have with DelIRium (or what SE dev team has probably thought of), but I honestly don't want Stormbloods DA spam back either. When I did more detailed simulations with the "spam BD", I noticed the EoS CPM going up to 12 which made me discard those versions entirely.

Just a heads-up, I've not abandoned this project yet. It was mostly well received from what I've read, yet with the fear of being too spamy.
I was testing EoS usage on higher SkS, and at what GCD I start to clip when double-weaving. Even tho I have a pretty good connection/ping to server, at 2.15s it gets pretty difficult to not have the slightest clip. I imagine someone with 200 ping will have even more trouble. So, my assumption 5% recast reduction should be enough for a double-weaving job is most likely true.
I am also still trying different combinations of mana gain from BW/SS/BS/BD, mana cost, gauge gain/spend options, potency/buff adjustments, CPM count etc etc. Just don't have much time on my hands rn. Tho, I will update the OP once I have a satisfying result. Until then, please take everything in the current OP with a grain of salt.

I like the AOE DRK now, but I don’t like the spamming of Bloodspiller. I wish it was a more impactful visually. More boom and less spam. I love seeing how Flood of Shadow and Edge of Shadow rip through the screen like a paint brush stroke. I rather spam those two over and over again.

The visual for Bloodspiller shouldve been something like Edge if Shadows visual. Fluffy and darkness splatters everywhere.

If they change anything at lest make the visual more exciting.

I really like the idea of blood weapon as a sustained buff. The current "sustained buff" of darkside is just silly. I think Delirium could still be more impactful. I would like to see some interaction between Delirium and Living shadow to promote another level of strategy.

I personally really like where DRK is right now. In fact I think all the tanks are in a pretty good spot right now and nearly evenly balanced out with just enough of a twinge in differences to make them unique and fun.

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Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

I personally really like where DRK is right now. In fact I think all the tanks are in a pretty good spot right now and nearly evenly balanced out with just enough of a twinge in differences to make them unique and fun.

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In terms of general play DRK "Unique" gimmicks being The Blackest Night, which you might as well not even bother having because you would have spent that 3k MP on Edge/Flood of Darkness/Shadow anyway if the shield does break(which makes it a not fun gimmick mind you), guessing physical tankbuster or magical tank buster with Dark Mind, and then Living Dead simply exists because it's THE worst invuln out of all of the invulns, and Living Shadow is just a watered down Demi-Bahamut(which MCH also got btw) which means it's better to use Bloodspiller instead, which makes the number pointless gimmicks that are not fun and/or boring at 4.


WAR gimmick are... Infuriate, guaranteed Direct Crits, Shake It Off gimmick and choosing between Raw Intuition and Nascent Flash, A.K.A. gimped Bloodbath, Fell Cleave until Upheaval is up, and Holmgang being the second worst invuln in the game, with only one of these being potentially good(guaranteed Direct Crits) if WAR had more than just Storm's Eye(which is worse than Edge/Flood of Darkness/Shadow because it's a GCD and locked behind a combo), with everything other gimmick needing a rework and I would rather WAR's damage up would be locked behind Berserk than Storm's Eye.


GNB has Burst combo, which feels slow when you first unlock GNB until you unlock Continuation(which should be available as soon as you unlock GNB), their Invuln has the potential to be good if Aurora was a lot better and doesn't "ghost"(activate recast but doesn't activate the effect itself), Brutal Shell could also be a lot better which would also make make Heart of Stone better.


PLD has Clemency, Hallowed Ground which is the best invuln in the game so long as it doesn't "ghost" but it's recast does need to be shorter, Divine Veil which I would rather it be a an AoE heal that shields, Cover which used to be good but got nerfed to the point where you might as well use Intervention because tether range sucks on Cover(just like DRG Dragon Sight), Passage of Arms which needs to a be a heal field that shields and regens, and the magic spam burst that got transferred to WAR as Fell Cleave spam, and DRK as Bloodspiller spam which looks awful because of physical attacks needing more variation in animation outside of one animation spam, which is why the re-worked Sword Oath needs some more time in the oven by baking Rage of Halone and Royal Authority into it with 3 Sword Oath stacks/Atonement being available at level 50, a trait that makes Sword Oath stronger with less stacks with Rage of Halone the second Sword Oath Weaponskill at level 60, Royal Authority the third Sword Oath Weaponskill at level 70.

But tanks DPS rotation boils down spam 1-2-3 ST or 1-2 AoE for 60-90 second and then press 1 GCD button 5-7 times(if you're unlucky enough to see max. #) along with another button spam 3-4 times(if you're unlucky enough to see max. #) which is basically the big complaint for tank rotations in general.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

No, you are exactly right. At first, it was my intention to "revert" those Shadow skills to DA values (to ensure more possible usages of TBN/EoS/FoS), but currently - after doing some rotation mappings with CPM and such - I almost certain, it would be better to even increase the mana cost - to lower the CPM of these Shadow skills. But what amount? I am not sure yet. I've done 2-3 different versions before I started with a new, more promising version, away from DA cost value.

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The pb i hear with drk since i started to play it is this " we spam 1 skill too much " how much mp is spend doesnt have anything to do with that :
Imagine having DA increase BW duration and then Eos/FoS and even our good friend Frey being MP dump that does more damage.
Edit : ofc the timing of the skill need to be changed for this idea to work, but my idea seems less anoying than trying to make 1 skill not too spammy.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

wall of text

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Didnt read all of that but you don't sound too happy with tanking classes. Maybe try playing something else?

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Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

Didnt read all of that

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Then take your time to actually read it. Just a suggestion.

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Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

you don't sound too happy with tanking classes.

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HUGE understatement.

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Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

Maybe try playing something else?

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I would but DPS que times suck and not a lot of level 80 dungeons to keep me interested in even playing in general while waiting for the next expansion...

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Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

Didnt read all of that but you don't sound too happy with tanking classes. Maybe try playing something else?

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People have said similar things to me honestly.
"If you hate DRK and tanking so much, why do you keep playing them and complaining about it?"

There's two reasons for me. One, my entire character identity (not RP, but what I like to do in the game) revolves around tanking well. Ever since late-Midas, I've made it a priority to be competent in every tank, since back then, that was rare and people relied on me for that. It was and is incredibly difficult for me to mentally accept the fact that years of putting my heart in one role, and putting my soul into one job in that role probably wasn't worth it. So, sunk cost fallacy on top of being too stubborn to give up.

Two, I literally cannot switch off tank because of how the savage gear progression works. I'm i498, missing my ring, a few shellacs for BiS accessories, and raid weapon. I've already dumped over two months of tomestones into tank gear. Switching off it would drop me down to i480 pentamelds at best, in a role I haven't been meticulously optimizing or playing in relevant EX and above content in 3 years. I pug everything, so I have to play my absolute best, with the best gear possible, or I'm griefing random players. It's why I don't play anything but DRK in savage right now, because I know it has the largest margin of error, and I can safely turn my brain off and watch the party/mechanics.

I wish I could just drop DRK and switch to a GNB main, at least I'd be pressing more buttons. At a high level, you aren't mentally engaged with the core tank gameplay, regardless of actual fight complexity, and this kills DRK harder than anyone else. Think about how many things were added for tanks, and how many things were taken away/simplified into non-mechanics. For people who've been playing for a while, this is a massive contrast, and is similar with what happened with healers. If you have a room called "Tank Role" full of people of different sizes with a high skill ceiling, everyone can fit in, everyone has room to grow taller, there's always someone to teach, and probably someone to look up to. When you then suddenly reduce the ceiling by half of it's height, everyone who was trying to reach the ceiling has now EXCEEDED it automatically, and is bending over trying to even fit in the room. That's what's happening right now.

The first step in fixing this is adding back in uniqueness to tank identity, and wide-sweeping role changes are not possible right now. Notice the amount of suggestion/complaint threads pertaining to specific jobs, even I broke a personal rule and made one. Ideas that are not even feasible in design, ideas that are intricately thought out, and everything in-between. Because we're desperate for absolutely anything to change. It's boring. So bring back what worked in HW/SB by making mana faster, make Darkside matter, GCDs faster, BW and Delirium not awful skills. Anything, even an attempt would be welcome. That way, I can be actively engaged in the job of which I experience the majority of the game. Seriously, fix blood weapon, every time I use this skill and not get the fifth hit for some reason despite a 2.38 GCD and a delayed weave I get actually angry make it like bunshin FFS.

And people wouldn't be nearly as insistent if SE would just say something about tanks or healers. Healers have gotten small changes, but things like bringing back Energy Drain were not done lightly, I think. And those changes don't change the core of what happened to the healer role in the ShB transition, just the actual jobs. Tanks? We've gotten AoE Reprisal, +5 seconds on 30% CD, and small WAR defensive adjustments. Nothing else, and certainly nothing revolving around individual job mechanics. No dialogue, no acknowledgement of feedback, no discussions, no statements, absolutely nothing of substance for 10 months. "Wait until next expansion." And that's discouraging. I would love it if they would just say "We're not changing anything, deal with it." so I can stop hoping for DRK and the role to become better than they are right now.

tl;dr Things used to be fun, they aren't now, are we all screaming into a void?

Hello again, I updated the opening post with 2 new versions.

While I would like to go further -and I actually have- but I will hold it back 'til after the next LL. I am actually curious what YoshiP is going to say about tanks... well, IF they say anything about them that is...

@OdinelStarrei: You're speaking from my soul and heart. A wonderful post about the current state of tanks, especially regarding DRK.

@AC9Breaker:

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Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

In fact I think all the tanks are in a pretty good spot right now and nearly evenly balanced out with just enough of a twinge in differences to make them unique and fun.

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I strongly disagree when you talk about uniqueness. Yes, tanks are in a good spot balance-wise, but in a terrible state design-wise. GNB and PLD do in fact differ enough from WAR and DRK, to be "unique", but -ho boi- that's a whole other story for WAR vs. DRK. Both do in fact have the same design mechanics, heck, SE didn't even bother to hide it. Delirium is Inner Release; Darkside is Storm's Eye on oGCD, but more silly; Blood Gauge = Beast Gauge; Blood Weapon is Infuriate, but weaker and less reliable, and hasn't even been addressed since ShB launch (holy f-). The only difference between DRK and WAR is DRK has more buttons and spams more oGCDs than WAR. But the outcome is almost identical.
In regard to tanks and identity, -as I said- Odinel has stated it pretty well.

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Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

Maybe try playing something else?

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Funny how that's a point of yours. If you truly enjoy this iteration of DRK, and weren't too happy with its style beforehand, why didn't you just play WAR back in stormblood? Or how about WAR in this current expansion? You're playing the same job today anyways.

Part of the thread's draw attention to and hopefully thereby rectify that DRK lost its identify as the fast tank. And no, before anyone else suggests, playing GNB is not a suitable replacement-- it is far too inflexible and slow compared to SB DRK's glory-days.

I'm pretty popular, haha

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Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

I'm pretty popular, haha

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posts like this smell of bait.

Why yes I might have fallen for it but just throught I'd point that out.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

posts like this smell of bait.

Why yes I might have fallen for it but just throught I'd point that out.

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Not really. I was just using my brevity to show how silly it is for people to feel some kind of way over my opinion. Particularly when its roughly 20% of people who play as DRK who are not happy with it. :confused:

Kinda off topic too but I've gotten pretty good at not having to read everything to get the general point of what ever I am reading. Its kind of a skill I've developed in college as I'm sure many people have here as well.

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Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

Not really. I was just using my brevity to show how silly it is for people to feel some kind of way over my opinion. Particularly when its roughly 20% of people who play as DRK who are not happy with it. :confused:

Kinda off topic too but I've gotten pretty good at not having to read everything to get the general point of what ever I am reading. Its kind of a skill I've developed in college as I'm sure many people have here as well.

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It's way more than 20% saddly, i tend to visit a lot places like balance discord and other places and there is nothing but how good was old DRK and how boring and lame current gameplay is independent of how balanced current tanks are, hehe even they want the DA spam back if it was posible, and the PPL how play it it's mostly bcs is the theme job of the expansion and how powerful TBN is only, even my co-tank who is DRK don't hide it and claim he play bcs TBN it's just OP, only complety new ppl don't have any real complaing about DRK outside of how lame is fit 5 GCD on bloodweapon and delirium and thats bcs they don't know how much fun use to have the job.

it's no a coincidence that DRK have one of the most gameplay complains so far this expansion, ppl just don't like current iteraction bcs balance is not everything.

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Originally Posted by shao32

It's more than 20% saddly, i will say 70% at minimun, i tend to visit a lot places ...

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70% is not at all an accurate assumption, especially when that number is being based off of the percentage of people complaining in places that people tend to go to complain about just that sort of thing. It's biased data.
Those who are happy with something are far less likely to raise their voices and make their opinion known on it, as opposed to those that are not happy about it. When people are not happy with something, they get all riled up and make their discontent known. When people are happy, they tend to remain quiet and content.
Unsurprisingly, if you go to a venue where one of it's major purposes is to discuss and vent about potential problems, you are going to hear a large portion of the population there discussing problems. That is what they are there to do. You can't simply poll a single demographic and expect it to accurately reflect the greater population.

It's like a little saying that I use, "Go hunting for witches and you are likely to find them", meaning that if you go in to something with a bias that you wish to prove right, you are leading yourself to only one conclusion, the one you started with.

Honestly, arguing prospective percentages of who may or may not have a problem with the current DRK serves very little purpose and tends to be positioned in to too much of an "either/or" situation, where you either have to think the current DRK is perfectly fine as is, or that it is the bane of all existence and broke into your house and pooped in your shower.
I guarantee you that most people are not of either of those positions but a mixture of the two and somewhere in between, many of which may not even have a real opinion either way but simply "heard that DRK has problems" and so are swayed by hearsay.

Arguing such statistics based on anecdotal evidence does nothing to bolster any side of the argument and tends to just come across as a blunt attempt at trying to delegitimize opposition, whether arguing that only 20% or arguing that upwards of 70% dislike current DRK.

Let's all try to stick to making good assessments and discussions as to what works and doesn't work with the current version of DRK and the other tanks.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

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i didn't say it's real data at all but more i belive how is around based on my own experience on every DRK discussion i saw and not trying to be a legitimate poll or something like that, but you are right i shouln't use a percentage to counter AC9Breaker and would lead to a mindless discussion about who is right who is not ect ect, i'll try to avoid using that in the future thanks for the feedback.