Theory on Zodairk and Hydylian

Elidibus is Zodairk heart

Venet is Hydaelyn heart but Venet has yet to reveal herself or has she reveal and none us realize who she is. aka the warrior of light.

how does one defeat elidibus solution the crystal tower. I theories that crystal arch is died but in his effect save both first and prevent elidibus for cause more damage to the first and the source he will bind elidibus to himself and take elidibus with him the theif really does run away with the hero prize in this case

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

Elidibus is Zodairk heart

Venet is Hydaelyn heart but Venet has yet to reveal herself or has she reveal and none us realize who she is. aka the warrior of light.

how does one defeat elidibus solution the crystal tower. I theories that crystal arch is died but in his effect save both first and prevent elidibus for cause more damage to the first and the source he will bind elidibus to himself and take elidibus with him the theif really does run away with the hero prize in this case

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What a gory post lol, love the energy.

Your theory isn't much of a stretch I'd say, would make sense.

I think that white robed hooded figure we've seen with Zenos might be Venet, aka the heart of Hydaelyn, with how it seems they made Zodiark itself his next hunt.

I think (and hope) we will eventually turn on Hydaelyn and consider it as an enemy as well. Would be very interesting to see how that plays out.

This would be more appropriate in the lore section, but...

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Originally Posted by SamRF

I think that white robed hooded figure we've seen with Zenos might be Venet, aka the heart of Hydaelyn, with how it seems they made Zodiark itself his next hunt.

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I honest to goodness am expecting the figure to be

Asahi (Who was ascended into an Ascian after his usefulness as a pawn)

, because the stature, voice, and obvious motive all match up, they claim to only have second hand knowledge of the last days, and it's someone Zenos actually recognizes which doesn't leave a very long list of potential candidates.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

This would be more appropriate in the lore section, but...



I honest to goodness am expecting the figure to be

Asahi (Who was ascended into an Ascian after his usefulness as a pawn)

, because the stature, voice, and obvious motive all match up, they claim to only have second hand knowledge of the last days, and it's someone Zenos actually recognizes which doesn't leave a very long list of potential candidates.

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There's this silly part of me that hopes if that's true then it's

actually Lahabread possessing Asahi's body :P because man did I hate that dude, and after seeing the character development Emet and even Elidibus have gotten, it really feels like there's some potential in Lahabrea that we never got to explore

...side note but I've apparently memed too much in Prae because I unironically typod his name as Lahabread twice in this post lmao

lahabread is dead we killed him. I don't believe hydealyn has any desire except the survie of are world. why is are world called Hydealyn if isn't for Hydealyn her self being part of it. I believe it foolishness to believe that hydealyn has any other desire but good of surive of Erozath and are world. Venet Follower view where that the lives that come after them have the right to live when creator they gods Hydealyn and Zodark their god to on polar opsite of each other view Zodark what restore what was by human sacrifice and the will of ascians. Hydealyn desire to protect the life was new and just came into to beings in many way Hydealyn is protect of life and it persevere, Zodark is oppsite he is the take of life and it destruction. Zodark is in many the god of death and Hydealyn the Goddress of life. I understand that many want believe Hydealyn is evil but this a human concept if one must be will look thing through god view thing in this case Hydealyn view she protect life and allow it keep going. while Zodark destroy it. I understand shadowbringer may people want question good and evil it good writing to make a villian make you question your choice yet realize that your character life would one they snuff out for ascians desire goals.

in end battle were we told that remember we once lived. there double mean for this if in fact the warrior of light is reborn Venet then it remind that she also once live as one them.

the destruction of both Hydealyn and Zodark would be end of are world if you think video game term how has

Hydealyn really isn't threat to anyone

I think the entire point was that neither Hydaelyn nor Zodiark are inherently good or evil
Zodiark was built on sacrifice to restore what was lost - sacrificing current life to restore the past
Hydaelyn was born to protect new life - to prevent further sacrifice, and let go of the past


But at the end of the day, both are primals, born of the desperate hopes of a dying people, extraordinarily powerful and frankly, extraordinarily dangerous to anyone that happens to be opposing either force.
From the Ascian's perspective, Hydaelyn and all of her followers are a threat to everything they stand for - even if they weren't tempered by Zodiark, our goals (preservation of life on the Source and other stars) are fundamentally opposed to theirs (sacrificing all life on the stars for the sake of restoring THEIR star, assuming we're not gonna find out something else is going on too)
WE are a threat to THEM, whether they think we're some pathetic inferior lifeform or not
Right now I'm really interested to find out what the primals really want, and how this is gonna play out


Would definitely be interesting to learn we're Hydaelyn's heart, and not very surprising
As long as it's not gonna turn out to be Minfilia. Her story was sad, but I'm not sad to see her gone.

I hope Ryne will be brought to source I would love see her wake up infront of minfilia mother here Hydaelyn has take your daughter now she have return her in some form it be poetic in way. I argee with you Avidria I often seen protect life and protect new life a good not as evil.

my hope is Ryne Is return before the rest of scian are what surpise that would be. part me think her return will be at hand eden and oracle of darkness sarfice her own life to insure it. I long believe Eden is prime of light or holy.

it still make Hydaelyn the goddress of life if you think about, this view that person faith empower an prime or god or goddress isn't old to fantasy Warhammer has similar concepts to it. It very different for my Christian belief, through it is interest concept none less

that why I don't think hydaelyn is threat to anyone she protect life she doesn't ascian at her beacon and called. so she isn't much of a threat to anyone. the light on first was the ascian doing not her doing. she doesn't have any hide goals mearly protect and preservation life is a threat to anyone but ascian. I don't understand why people want bretayed her for that to fight gaint crystal being well go seek Zodarck he a gaint crystal being maybe because he the undog in this matter but he isn't much undog he already had his minion force rejoining of 7 stars. through I don't think there be a fight between us Zodarck there no point or a fight between hydealyn no point for that ether. if we trap Elidibus who aether mind you into crystal tower that will be enough and set it defensive to destroy any ascian that tried to free him that be fine.

Zenos crave battle he crave war he a fight that will evenaulty be his end. him vs Zodarck even in Zodarck weak state Zodarck would win. I suppect it more attempt for who every is push Zenos to free Zodarck I suppect Zodarck would absorb Zenos into himself.

Yeah, yeah I get you... I get you.. I think. Actually, no I don't. I have no idea what you are talking about.

Interesting. I, too, enjoy learning more about Exodia and Hydlide.

Tbh bassed on how things have played out i think we are a fragment of one of the core ascions so your thought that we may be venet is plausible though idk

I just like that this is Granas and Valmar, FFXIV style.

Edit: The God and Devil in Grandia 2. Granas is defeated by Valmar, the exact opposite of the battle between the two Gods in FFXIV.

the next few chapter of this book will be interesting to say the least will the scion be brought home will Ryne be amoug them let hope so she kind grown on you and you would hate see her left behind, who is warrior of light in grand scheme of things.

It's very unlikely that Ryne will come over with the Scions to the Source. Remember it's only their essence that is currently in the First. Also a good part of the Eden raids (hello Gaia) is a setup to give Ryne a companion so that the Scions can leave without too much bad conscience about leaving her alone.

I not sure the oracle of darkness will be there long, I believe that she may died at the end but in her death she push Ryne to source, I don't think she meant to be there long term character Eden is really powerful prime it could be use for this

Ryne is doing everything of eden for the first she opposite of while Ryne is caring younger woman the Gaia is selfish put what she want before anyone else. for once she will put Ryne need before her I believe it will be Gaia who send her to the source.

She be like Ryne for once be think what you want instead of the first. by give up her own life and the power of eden she use it to send Ryne to source

My thoughts on Hydaelin and Zodiark are they were both summoned in incomplete states that screwed everything up.

IIRC if you watch the cutscene at the end of the anamnesis anyder and count whos present (include the one in charge) theres only 13. Much like when summoning zodiark, there were 13 there too as teh 14th decided to not have any part of it. What people have to consider is why it was so important for there to be 14. Even when summoning hydaelin, they wanted the 14th from the convocation to join them but when they cant get that person, they proceed anyways. If you remember, primals can be summoned incorrectly or in incomplete states, and when that is done, theyre kind of screwed up and dont 'operate' as intended. I think in both cases, for everything to work as intended they needed 14, as it seems to be heavily implied that not having 14 people do it (or atleast the 14th member) that things will be a lot less ideal. With only 13 to summon zodiark, zodiark gets summoned but probably has issues or is incomplete. In Hydaelins case, she also gets summoned and her 'directive' is constrain/defeat zodiark. Which she does...by smashing the planet into 13 shards and a source. This is kind of like fixing a broken roof by burning down the entire building. Also keep in mind that the cores of both hydaelin and Zodiark are made of people, and therefore are also going to be imperfect as theyll have personal biases and perspectives that are very much grounded in being mortal.

In the end, I think its gonna mean were gonna have to eliminate hydaelin as well or we're gonna be the force that keeps balance between the two - as it shouldve been made clear with this xpac that the light can be as devastating as the dark. A lot of what were being shown (for better or worse) demonstrates that hydaelin isnt exactly on 'our' side. Shes doing things to her benefit. Case and point - the flood on the first. Stopping it seems like Hydaelin is doing the right thing. So shes a good guy...except after stopping it she really does nothing else. Stopping it is definitely in Hydaelins best interest as that completes her objectives, but she doesnt have to do anything else beyond that. When you consider her actions, theyre not always in 'our best interests'. As for being the 'mother crystal' I think thats a title we've given to hydaelin. She isnt our mother. Shes just another primal who we associate with because it seems like theyre in our better interest, at least on paper. In all instances I can thnk of, Hydaelin helps us because it helps her and her goals. It is very possible that when our goals and her goals are opposing one another, shes gonna try and throw us under the bus. Particularly since we're not really empowered by Hydaelin - The echo is something we have that she uses when necessary.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

My thoughts on Hydaelin and Zodiark are they were both summoned in incomplete states that screwed everything up...

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I can see that happening, but I must point out that she also gave us the Blessing of Light at least. Though conversely HW has shown that we don't really need it.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

My thoughts on Hydaelin and Zodiark are they were both summoned in incomplete states that screwed everything up.

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Lot of interesting thoughts tbh. I could see that being the case.

Also, in the same vein as some of your points about Hydaelyn, it's interesting to consider

the implication of the latest msq that the echo is just constantly being broadcast to temper anyone who happens to have their latent abilities triggered by a starshower. Assuming I interpreted what happened, and what Elidibus was saying, correctly, that was sort of the vibe I got - that Hydaelyn was just constantly putting out a net to catch people she can use when she needs to. I don't trust him as far as I could throw an elephant, ofc, but it's a little bit of a grim way to look at Hydaelyn's methods.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I can see that happening, but I must point out that she also gave us the Blessing of Light at least. Though conversely HW has shown that we don't really need it.

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The blessing of light is a bit ambiguous to exactly what it is. Maybe I misunderstood the latest MSQ stuff but

The Echo is inherent to us, and isnt gifted. It's essentially a fragment of the power of the Amoratines and the world which Emet and the other ascians originated from. As we become more 'complete' this power becomes stronger. If this is the case, it would also explain why the echo prevents tempering - It literally is god powers (a fragment of the very same power that could will things into existance), and since most primals are down stream of Amarotians power wise, tempering doesnt work on individuals with a strong enough Echo. What exactly then is the 'blessing of light'. As far as I can tell, its only a barrier or shielding Hydaelin provided us against Zodiark's powers in very specific situations.

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Originally Posted by Avidria

Lot of interesting thoughts tbh. I could see that being the case.

Also, in the same vein as some of your points about Hydaelyn, it's interesting to consider
....

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Unless I misunderstood the MSQ (which I couldve), the Echo

is inherent to us, and isnt something gifted by Hydaelin. It is through the power of the echo that we can even hear Hydaelin. It is also the same echo that prevents tempering. Beyond that, yeah, Hydaelin is essentially shouting into the darkness, and gathering up anyone who can hear her call. She's not tempering us, but rather because people dont understand what the echo is or if they even have it, she can simply frame the encounter people have with her as "Oh, I called to you and gave you this special gift." Shes manipulating the situation for her own self gains. She requires people with this god level power to do her bidding and since people dont know any better, its pretty easy for her to manipulate them to do her will. Even if its in our interest, its pretty sinister.

when I imply that she a goddress it her desire to put you in Ezorath so your right she manipulate you but you benfitted for it. your character is alive it would be poor graduate to turn on what gave you life in first place not won't it be. seem me people confused they begin of the character life because they think they character just exsisted no you have you came into being because of Hydaelyn brought you into being. I guess people skip the cutescene where your float in a sea of aether forget who is speak to you who is called to you. forget that she put you in Ezorath must be more of manipulation your alive or maybe it her nature to bring her heart into being to protect life for that who would destroy it.

maybe if you kileld Hydaelyn your character stop exsist. that be funny concept, people are I want killed hydaelyn and they find out killed her mean end for they characters.

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

when I imply that she a goddress it her desire to put you in Ezorath so your right she manipulate you but you benfitted for it. your character is alive it would be poor graduate to turn on what gave you life in first place not won't it be. seem me people confused they begin of the character life because they think they character just exsisted no you have you came into being because of Hydaelyn brought you into being. I guess people skip the cutescene where your float in a sea of aether forget who is speak to you who is called to you. forget that she put you in Ezorath must be more of manipulation your alive or maybe it her nature to bring her heart into being to protect life for that who would destroy it.

maybe if you kileld Hydaelyn your character stop exsist. that be funny concept, people are I want killed hydaelyn and they find out killed her mean end for they characters.

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Sorry was a bit hard to understand your point, but if I did get it right, it makes it worse - Youre brought into existance soley to do hydaelin's bidding. You dont have free will. Youre strictly a tool of Hyadelin and her quest to beat zodiark. Thats pretty messed up too. But this relies on the interpretation that your character didnt exist before the start of the MSQ. I dont think that's the case cause if youre a legacy character from 1.0, you have a different opening cutscene that implies you were around since 1.0.

You still have to consider that Hydaelins actions are what created the current situation. Yeah, she beat zodiark, but obliterated the 'original world' in the process. Obliterated that world with all the life that was on that world. As I said, fixed the roof by burning down the house, so there's no roof to fix anymore. She also pretty much leaves the first on the verge of extinction after stopping the flood. The WoL on the first do have the echo and should be able to 'hear' Hydaelin, so why wouldnt she step in and tell em "Hey, stop killing those things! Making everything bad!" Ive had a few thoughts about this so tinfoil hat time.

If Hydaelins primary directive is to beat and keep zodiark contained (and if we make the assumption that it's the source which she gives a rats ass about predominately), then the best way to beat the the ascians is to stop the rejoining by soft locking worlds. A big problem, in the Ascians plan is that the 13th is totally boned currently. If you need all the shards to rejoin, and the 13th is screwed up irreparably, the Asians are screwed already. But if that world already somehow rejoined, or theres something special about the 13ths situation, then Hydaelins best bet would be to screw up another world so badly it would prevent it from being rejoined. We know this is possible currently because the 13th shows this as being the case.

With that in mind, could it be possible that Hydaelin let what happened to the first happen, only to intervene to prevent it from fully rejoining and putting it in a position where if left alone long enough, itd get so screwed up that you couldnt rejoin it. Afterall, when you really think about it, Emet told us flat out that given time, they will win. Should their initial plans get stopped, theyll just wait it out and do it all over again down the line. So in that light, the first is still screwed. Even if you get Eden working again, Itd just take Elidibus time and careful planning to restart the rejoining again on the first. Itd probably be a lot easier considering how damaged the first is. So Hydaelins best bet? Soft Lock the shard to prevent it from being rejoined. Everything there dies? It's fine. A small sacrifice for the greater good. Do you think this thinking it far outside the mindset of the Amarotians, who make up Hydaelin and Zodiark's cores?

I could be completely 100% wrong. Hydaelin is teh good guy, Zodiark is the bad guy. Basic good vs evil story structure (even though it does appear that there is more of a yin/yang dichotomy that is going on between zodiark and hydaelin), but it is fun food for thought if there was more complexity and that Hydaelin is a lot worse than we think, and Zodiark is a lot less bad than we think.

when come to legacy character one could be seen as you be saved by Hydaelyn. you did appear in column of light mind and yes I do have legacy character. if you go back to begin of 2.0 you notice you appeal on Ezorath in column of light this could also Hydialyn doing. see you have think Hydaelyn has desire to defeat Zodairk or hiden motive human nature think Her desire is manluptive. it maybe Zodairk goal to defeat hydialyn and she self defensive life. you have your view of hydialyn backward. Hydialyn right in control of Ezorath so how is she worst then Zodairk if she is in control. Zodairk is one imprison right now why do you think the ascian are tried to get her expel for Erozath and Zodairk replace her

in core of Ezorath is a sea of aether this where Hydialyn exsist current so she is in control right now. so think she was worst has throw out all what we current know about Zodairk and Hydaelyn since Hydaelyn won that Titanic fight between her and Zodairk. Zodairk is right now imprison in the other moon.

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

you appeal on Ezorath in column of light this could also Hydialyn doing

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Do you mean Eorzea? I have no idea who this Ezorath is... The column of light you appear from going from 1.x to 2.0 is also a spell Lou cast by calling upon Thaliak, the keeper of time. If you look at the End of an Era, Thaliak's symbol even appears when his finishes his casting.

Anyway, going off of what some others were saying that the Echo is not a gift from Hydaelyn, but its what allowed us to hear her call. Could it be that she has just been hijacking everyone with this power throughout the ages and it actually comes from a source that will help us defeat her after we are able to be purged of her tempering. Maybe it is actually a gift from the being that originally tried to bring down the ascians? Maybe its just a natural gift? Maybe the gift of the echo is a byproduct of the sundering that she is using to her advantage? Maybe even its a gift of the Twelve. There has been very little said about them since 2.x and it feels suspicious. There are a lot of possibilities.

The feel I got from the last MSQ was that the echo was a remnant - a literal echo - of the power we had as Ancients. Something dormant inside of us that could be triggered by a memory ingrained so deep in us that it wasn't completely gone even after all this time - that memory being the meteors falling from the sky and destroying the Ancient civilization.

Ofc again idk how much stock to put in literally anything Elidibus says at this point, but it definitely felt like he was implying Hydaelyn has gone so far as deliberately triggering those memories to enable people to hear her via the echo so she could enlist their help - the further implication being that she would be enlisting that help via tempering anyone able to hear her.

You could argue her motive justifies this, being the prevention of the Ascians' plans succeeding, but it still paints a less friendly picture of Hydaelyn's "gift" than anything we've seen before.

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Originally Posted by Avidria

The feel I got from the last MSQ was that the echo was a remnant - a literal echo - of the power we had as Ancients. Something dormant inside of us that could be triggered by a memory ingrained so deep in us that it wasn't completely gone even after all this time - that memory being the meteors falling from the sky and destroying the Ancient civilization. .

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This could very well be and it could be the power of the Ascians, which made Hydaelyn and Zodiark, is the key to undoing them. So by tempering everyone with the echo and but limits on it (remember everyone's is different), she is securing her existence. Which could also be the reason she sundered the world to begin with.

I really do not believe Hydaelyn is out for anyone but Hydaelyn. I mean a creature who went as far as breaking the world into 13 replicas of itself and all the people on it, effectively commiting genocide, does not go to well with benevolence.

Spoiler Alert: Zenos is going to possess Zodiark in much the same fashion as he did Shinryu. Zeromus?

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Originally Posted by Avidria

The feel I got from the last MSQ was that the echo was a remnant - a literal echo - of the power we had as Ancients. Something dormant inside of us that could be triggered by a memory ingrained so deep in us that it wasn't completely gone even after all this time - that memory being the meteors falling from the sky and destroying the Ancient civilization.

Ofc again idk how much stock to put in literally anything Elidibus says at this point, but it definitely felt like he was implying Hydaelyn has gone so far as deliberately triggering those memories to enable people to hear her via the echo so she could enlist their help - the further implication being that she would be enlisting that help via tempering anyone able to hear her.

You could argue her motive justifies this, being the prevention of the Ascians' plans succeeding, but it still paints a less friendly picture of Hydaelyn's "gift" than anything we've seen before.

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Ok so gonna hide stuff cause teh spoilers but....

This is the case because I think Elidibus straight up says the Echo predates the ability to even hear Hydaelin. Meaning, You cant even interact/hear Hydaelin unless you have the echo, and that it is latent to all things and only activated by events that reawaken the amarotian fragment in you. Keep in mind it's this same echo that prevents tempering from primals, so if Hydaelin was creating these events to awaken the Echo, it would be counter productive if her goal was tempering.

Also, the tempered tend to be fanatical and seek to convert more people to being tempered, something those with the echo arent really described as being. Tempering itself seems to be a byproduct of more 'feral' primals. This would be like Ifrit, Garuda, titan, etc. Primals who are more like manifestations of, well, primal nature in living things. This may be because primals like ifrit do not have a 'core', and require the conviction of outside believers to remain solid. More believers, stronger the primal is too. This would explain how more advanced Primals, such as Shiva, Thordan, Alexander, Shinryu (Kinda, but Zenos joins the Primal and gains control of it likely as its new core), and Tsukuyomi dont seem to need tempering. Primals that have a 'core' seem not to only have higher thinking, but they dont need the worship of tempered to survive. The strength and conviction of the core itself is usually enough to keep the Primal stable, as long as they get fed the necessary Aether to manifest. This fact seems backed up particularly with Tsukuyomi, where when Yotsuyu's conviction falters, the Primal destabalizes and disolves. It's only when she gives back into the the "Screw it all" mindset that she stabilizes again and even becomes more powerful.

Also, given what we learned after beating Amnanesis Anider, this seems to be the case as both cores of Zodiark and Hydaelin are composted of Amarotians - God like beings in of themselves, which created pretty much the ultimate manifestations a primal can take. Implications of E8 seem to suggest the stronger the core, teh stronger the manifestation. Given the MSQ story and what surrounds Ryne, its not to much of a stretch to assume she is more powerful than Ysale, and subsequently, her manifestation of Shiva is also more powerful. But it also demonstrates that you can lose control pretty easily if youre not mentally strong enough to wield that power. Ysale was pretty solid in that department, where Ryne was either overpowered by her own summon or she herself just didnt have the conviction or maturity required to stay in control.

Which actually brings us to a very possible reason why both Hydaelins group and Zodiarks group wanted that 14th member - They may have been extremely gifted/powerful and wouldve made the perfect core. Instead they used the original Elidibus and Venat as the cores (and did so without enough members as it were). Its possible that while these two are powerful in their own right, maybe they didnt have the mental fortitude to keep the primals in check and shenanigans ensued.

Might be down the line, we ourselves will indeed become a new primal, and act as the core for that primal that forces balance between Zodiark and Hydaelin. We have the strength of will and power to do so, so its not to far out there.

I'm on mobile and even with desktop mode cropping and quoting is a nightmare BUT
in response to you Melichoir

my understanding was that we've just assumed the echo protects us from being tempered, but iirc it was said at some point that you can't be tempered by a primal if you already are tempered by a different one - I may be wrong on that but I remember this coming up in some discussions back closer to ShB launch.

I also thought the Ascians admitted to being tempered? I may need to do some digging, but I vaguely remember something about the primals we have today being inferior in part because their tempering just brute force blanks out the victims instead of solely binding them to their will. That could just be a fan theory but I'm definitely gonna see if I can look into this more later and see where these thoughts came from...

Tldr I thought the Ascians were tempered and it was implied we were too lol I've just gotta go back and re-read some things looks like

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Originally Posted by Avidria

I'm on mobile and even with desktop mode cropping and quoting is a nightmare BUT
in response to you Melichoir

my understanding was that we've just assumed the echo protects us from being tempered, but iirc it was said at some point that you can't be tempered by a primal if you already are tempered by a different one - I may be wrong on that but I remember this coming up in some discussions back closer to ShB launch.

I also thought the Ascians admitted to being tempered? I may need to do some digging, but I vaguely remember something about the primals we have today being inferior in part because their tempering just brute force blanks out the victims instead of solely binding them to their will. That could just be a fan theory but I'm definitely gonna see if I can look into this more later and see where these thoughts came from...

Tldr I thought the Ascians were tempered and it was implied we were too lol I've just gotta go back and re-read some things looks like

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Yeah, you cant be tempered if youre already tempered, ass youve been pointed out. But it was specified that the echo itself prevents us from being tempered, and with the new knowledge that

the echo is a power directly from the Amorotians and not Hydaelin, and subsequently predates hydaelin, we cant be tempered by hydaelin.

Also yeah

the ascians are tempered by Zodiark, but that was done only to the 13 that summoned him from what I understood. So it might be a situation that if youre involved directly with the summoning, you get tempered. but youre already a firm believer in the process so not much would change. We, however, didnt summon Hydaelin. It's not a fan theory about brute forcing people into tempered, but again, this seems to happen with primals who dont have a core. We really dont see primals who have a core require the tempered to remain stable, or even create tempered. You could argue with Ysale and Thordan they had strong followers, but that wouldnt explain Tsukuyomi. Could very well be that Primals with cores who also have followers that help the summon volentarily temper themselves, and thus remain some freewill. It would make sense as that would allow Emet and the other ascians to be able to act freely and think, unlike other tempered who are just mindless worshippers.

I think you prespect if wrong Melichoir you assumed you being manluptived by hydaelyn and that everything ascian told you was correct. see what they told you must take with gain of a lot salts because they lost second they desire are destructions. Hydailyn. third the concept of Amorotians isn't to be found anywere except by your post mean you made it up. Hydaelyn gave us the echo not Amorotians stop tried make stuff up. Hydaelyn isn't a threat the ascian and Zodairk are where in lore does Amorotians come or are you make that up too. third it was ascian who force some to gain echo not Hydaelyn seem to me Melichoir everything your say sound more like some regressive ideal to ffxiv and not concept the devs hold when we have discuss on lore of ffxiv I except people point out lore not use ideal they come up or ideal procept they themselves put in they head because they want it to work for they views. point when one is discuss lore you must base on lore of ffxiv not one own desire view and ideal that one come up with

my theory isn't base on my ideal but base what mainline quest is point to and what all the mainline quest are point to not what someone made up or someone want think will happen.

the ideal of Hydialyn be evil has been base on one ascian tried twist the truth, second ffxiv story telling is base on all ffxiv mainline quests not shadowbringer alone. or stormbringer alone I find stupid people want create this ideal base on they own views

make Hydialyn good would be a first a good thing and second a new way for ff series to go about story telling and something I hope they doing. in my play ff game away SE has made god like being evil they have never broke that pattern if they can break in ffxiv then it show SE can doing new thing and tried new and expand they story telling compase

the whole evil god thing is get a bit old too SE

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

I think you prespect if wrong Melichoir you assumed you being manluptived by hydaelyn and that everything ascian told you was correct. see what they told you must take with gain of a lot salts because they lost second they desire are destructions.

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Not everything the Ascians have told us is a lie, and why should they always resort to lies. Sometimes the best way to manipulate an enemy is to tell them the truth of things. Furthermore, they dont 'desire destruction'. Thats not their end goal. Their end goal is to 'resurrect' Zodiark so they can get their homeland and people back. Theyre not sitting there thinking "Gee, lets destroy stuff cause its fun." The 3 main ones (Lahabrea, Elidibus, and Emet) all have different attitudes and may go about it differently but their end goal is the restoration of their people.

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

Hydailyn. third the concept of Amorotians isn't to be found anywere except by your post mean you made it up. Hydaelyn gave us the echo not Amorotians stop tried make stuff up.

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Um have you not been reading the MSQ?

Were all 'sundered' versions of original amorotians. The echo is implied to be a fragment of the power amarotians had, and is not gifted by Hydaelin but inherent to all of us because of us being sundered versions of those amarotians. The star shower or events that mimic it awaken that power. IIRC Elidibus does explain that you cant hear haidelyin without the echo, contrary to the original belief you hear Hydaelin and then she gives you the echo. You dont believe me, fine, Ill quote the wiki:

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Originally Posted by https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Elidibus_(Final_Fantasy_XIV)

...Elidibus later makes his presence known at the Crystarium, casting an illusion of a starshower to awaken the Echo within those present

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This was revealed in the most recent MSQ. How can hydaelin be gifting us with the echo if it requires an external event to awaken that power? In this case, Elidibus awakens the echo in the crowd by casting an illusion. Wouldnt it be counter productive to Elidibus to even create more WoLs with the power bestowed by Hydaelin if thats where it came from? All these people would be potential threats to him. Yet hes trying to make more people with the Echo.

If I had to take a guess, he wants them to all go out in the world, do what the WoD did inadvertently 100 years prior, and jump start the flood again.

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

Hydaelyn isn't a threat the ascian and Zodairk are where in lore does Amorotians come or are you make that up too. third it was ascian who force some to gain echo not Hydaelyn seem to me Melichoir everything your say sound more like some regressive ideal to ffxiv and not concept the devs hold when we have discuss on lore of ffxiv I except people point out lore not use ideal they come up or ideal procept they themselves put in they head because they want it to work for they views. point when one is discuss lore you must base on lore of ffxiv not one own desire view and ideal that one come up with

my theory isn't base on my ideal but base what mainline quest is point to and what all the mainline quest are point to not what someone made up or someone want think will happen.

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Im not sure if she is,

but given that she is not only a primal like zodiark, but her actions destroyed an entire world, and some of the stuff shes been up to doesnt quite add up. Not to mention her core is made up of another amarotian who, ironically, thought the solution to their problems was to summon MORE primals means that there is possibility that Hydaelin isnt perfectly good, and that Zodiark may not be completely evil. A theme that was presented was that light and darkness dont mean good/evil respectively, but are just different aspects. The first was a world almost obliterated by light. Doesnt sound like a 'good' thing to me.

Beyond that, gonna just ignore the rest. Not sure why youre going after me on a personal level. It's not relevant to anything Im saying. If Im wrong about some aspect of the lore, tell me the lore that counters my point and where its at so I can read up on it. Im not an expert on the lore, just passing my thoughts on based on what Ive understood.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

You still have to consider that Hydaelins actions are what created the current situation. Yeah, she beat zodiark, but obliterated the 'original world' in the process. Obliterated that world with all the life that was on that world. As I said, fixed the roof by burning down the house, so there's no roof to fix anymore. She also pretty much leaves the first on the verge of extinction after stopping the flood. The WoL on the first do have the echo and should be able to 'hear' Hydaelin, so why wouldnt she step in and tell em "Hey, stop killing those things! Making everything bad!" Ive had a few thoughts about this so tinfoil hat time.

If Hydaelins primary directive is to beat and keep zodiark contained (and if we make the assumption that it's the source which she gives a rats ass about predominately), then the best way to beat the the ascians is to stop the rejoining by soft locking worlds. A big problem, in the Ascians plan is that the 13th is totally boned currently. If you need all the shards to rejoin, and the 13th is screwed up irreparably, the Asians are screwed already. But if that world already somehow rejoined, or theres something special about the 13ths situation, then Hydaelins best bet would be to screw up another world so badly it would prevent it from being rejoined. We know this is possible currently because the 13th shows this as being the case.

With that in mind, could it be possible that Hydaelin let what happened to the first happen, only to intervene to prevent it from fully rejoining and putting it in a position where if left alone long enough, itd get so screwed up that you couldnt rejoin it. Afterall, when you really think about it, Emet told us flat out that given time, they will win. Should their initial plans get stopped, theyll just wait it out and do it all over again down the line. So in that light, the first is still screwed. Even if you get Eden working again, Itd just take Elidibus time and careful planning to restart the rejoining again on the first. Itd probably be a lot easier considering how damaged the first is. So Hydaelins best bet? Soft Lock the shard to prevent it from being rejoined. Everything there dies? It's fine. A small sacrifice for the greater good. Do you think this thinking it far outside the mindset of the Amarotians, who make up Hydaelin and Zodiark's cores?

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To be fair on the matter (of course, this is just my take on it):

I don't think it's a case of her trying to softlock a shard, so much as it is a case of her being unable to do anything beyond just stopping the flood. Nothing in the story thus far indicates to me that Hyadelin would have the ability to rewrite reality and fix the first (that was Zodiark's power). And, actually, she DID leave Minfilia behind on the first to fight against the sin eaters for countless generations, if memory serves. In addition, the idea of her contacting people in other shards to warn them of incoming calamities...first, that would require her knowing where the Ascians are acting (they don't make their schemes obvious at any point, and Hydelin doesn't exactly have a spy network). I'm also not sure that she can just contact anyone she wants, at any time and anywhere (heck, by the end of HW, I felt like she was already barely able to keep in direct touch with us, let alone make contact with people in another shard). She also lacks agents on the level of Lahabrea, Elidibus, and Emet to travel between the shards (she had Minfilia for a while, but that was for a relatively short while, and now she's gone for good). Overall, I think Hyadelin is on her final stretch, barely able to intervene directly in the Source, let alone other shards. I honestly think that by the time we manage to deal with Zodiark permanently, she's either gonna fall into a dormant state, or dissipate. As an added note, I very much doubt she'd be okay with the idea of softlocking worlds. A "sacrifice for the greater good" seems very much out of character for both her summoners, who summoned her exactly because they were tired of sacrifices, and by extension to Hyadelin herself.

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Originally Posted by Akatosh

Snips

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I think the problem on the break down is what happens in the recent MSQ. She does

Call out in the darkness, so to speak, with the echo. This is evident as people on the first hear her call once they have the echo awakened. My perspective is that once that happens, she can have contact with people on other shards. As for minfilia, I always took that as that as her choice. Hydaelin did seem to instruct her to go there and stop the flood from wiping everything out, but I dunno if Minfillia was sent specifically to stop Sin Eaters and that wasnt something that the subsequent 'minfillia's did as a choice. This is a bit more complicated because it seems like Hydaelin only sent her there AFTER the incident dealing with teh Wars of Dark. If they hadnt shown up, I dunno if she wouldve done anything. As for 'Ascian agents' for Hydaelin's side...That actually has been bothering me. Where are the other 12 who helped summon Hydaelin? We know that Emet, Lahabrea, and Elidibus were there for Zodiark summoning, and the result of all that ensured they wouldnt become sundered for some reason (bit fuzzy on that), but why arent there agents of Hydaelin too? Did she willingly sunder her own vangard even though she knew Ascians were still around? That part is a bit wierd to me.

That being said, I dont think the softlock is out of bounds for her. We can already see the hypocrisy of Hydaelin being summoned as it is literally doing the very thing they didnt want done. They didnt want an all powerful Primal, so to deal with that, they create another All powerful primal. Not only that, but the primal ends up sundering the world and causing untold devastation in its battle with Zodiark. I think the key thing to take away is while the initial intentions are good, it is very possible that the cores of Zodiark and Hydaelin were 'overwritten' just because the sheer level of power these Primals have might be even to much for an Amoratine mage. It would make sense cause as powerful as Ryne is, she almost 'lost' herself in e8, becoming the very primal that would ve (should we have lost the fight) dealt the death blow to the first, possibly overflooding it with light. So even with a powerful core doesnt mean the Primal will come out as envisioned. But again, this is just speculation based on what we've seen.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Call out in the darkness, so to speak, with the echo. This is evident as people on the first hear her call once they have the echo awakened. My perspective is that once that happens, she can have contact with people on other shards. As for minfilia, I always took that as that as her choice. Hydaelin did seem to instruct her to go there and stop the flood from wiping everything out, but I dunno if Minfillia was sent specifically to stop Sin Eaters and that wasnt something that the subsequent 'minfillia's did as a choice. This is a bit more complicated because it seems like Hydaelin only sent her there AFTER the incident dealing with teh Wars of Dark. If they hadnt shown up, I dunno if she wouldve done anything. As for 'Ascian agents' for Hydaelin's side...That actually has been bothering me. Where are the other 12 who helped summon Hydaelin? We know that Emet, Lahabrea, and Elidibus were there for Zodiark summoning, and the result of all that ensured they wouldnt become sundered for some reason (bit fuzzy on that), but why arent there agents of Hydaelin too? Did she willingly sunder her own vangard even though she knew Ascians were still around? That part is a bit wierd to me.

That being said, I dont think the softlock is out of bounds for her. We can already see the hypocrisy of Hydaelin being summoned as it is literally doing the very thing they didnt want done. They didnt want an all powerful Primal, so to deal with that, they create another All powerful primal. Not only that, but the primal ends up sundering the world and causing untold devastation in its battle with Zodiark. I think the key thing to take away is while the initial intentions are good, it is very possible that the cores of Zodiark and Hydaelin were 'overwritten' just because the sheer level of power these Primals have might be even to much for an Amoratine mage. It would make sense cause as powerful as Ryne is, she almost 'lost' herself in e8, becoming the very primal that would ve (should we have lost the fight) dealt the death blow to the first, possibly overflooding it with light. So even with a powerful core doesnt mean the Primal will come out as envisioned. But again, this is just speculation based on what we've seen.

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This should hopefully do it (sorry, like I said, internet and computer not on their best working orders):

I will grant one thing: whether or not the idea of a "softlock" is out of bounds would depend on how she was summoned (as in, what emotions/thoughts were going on when she was brought to life). That said, I still find it unlikely that it would be something she would conceive, given the initial circumstances of her summoning. That, however, I guess is something we'll have to wait and see (as you said, this is all speculation). As for the 12 that summoned her...call it a hunch, but I don't think they are alive anymore. To elaborate: Zodiark was the result of half of the ancients sacrificing themselves just to bring him forth and halt the calamity. In addition, he consumed half of what was remaining afterwards just to set things completely straight. That adds up to him having consumed 75% of all the ancients. With so few left, (and fewer still that would be willing to summon Hyadelin) summoning a primal that would even stand a chance against Zodiark probably meant the 12 didn't have the luxury of not serving as part of the sacrifices (along however many few they may have gathered to their cause). And in regards to the sundering matter, I don't think she did it with the intent of splitting the entire world. With the level of power that Zodiark presumably had at his disposal, it may be possible that during their battle, she realized the only way she could feasibly deal with him was to "divide and conquer", so to speak. I think she aimed the attack at him, but because he was the "Will of the Star" at this point (he was literally what was holding the laws of existence together), splitting him had the inadvertent effect of splitting EVERYTHING (that's my guess anyway). The "echo" broadcast, I will concede, feels very weird, and I hope they expand more on that (I feel like we're missing some information on that one). And remember, the echo is not inherited from her. Just because someone has the echo, doesn't mean they will hear Hyadelin beyond the "Hear, feel, think" message, as contacting someone is likely taxing for her (especially now that she's likely very much weakened).

These forums are awful so here's the rest of my post that it won't let me edit to add for some reason

This is again just speculation on what I can remember from the story, but the way I understood it from what we've heard is that Hydaelyn was weaker than Zodiark because of the nature of her summoning having FAR fewer sacrificed lives to fuel her, and the only option available was sundering the world.

Ofc I do think it goes further to show the Amaurotines are every bit as flawed as we are, though that's a bit of a side note. Their solution to stopping sacrifice was more sacrifice, the solution to preserving new life the continued sacrifice of old and the possibly inadvertent sundering of *all* life. Hydaelyn certainly accomplished their original goal of stopping Zodiark from sacrificing everything else to resurrect the dead Amaurotines (not clear on whether only Amaurot was participating in this mass sacrifice? They certainly seemed to talk about the first city affected by the calamity as a separate entity but given the situation I could see it being all Ancients)... buuut at rh cost of sundering literally everything including the new life AND whatever few Ancients survived all this human sacrifice.
I don't trust Elidibus one lick but if half of what he's saying is true, Hydaelyn is too weak to do much of anything other than shouting blindly, hoping someone hears her, and either convincing or manipulating/tempering people into helping her. All working because she is the "mothercrystal" and viewed as such by the people alive today - which is interesting to think about actually. What little the world "remembers" of what happened millennia ago is of Zodiark being bad and Hydaelyn being good - cue Emet's monologue about the Victor writing the histories...

Anyway. All of this, imo, points to neither primal actually being inherently good or evil, but rather having fundamentally opposed goals, having been borne forward by people (Ancients) with fundamentally opposed philosophies. I got very much of a 'preserving the past at the cost of the future' vs 'preserving the future at the cost of the past' vibe from it all. Simplifies it a bit, but the heart of the issue felt more like a question of which life should be preserved - or, from the apparent perspective of the Ascians, which life is *worthy* of being preserved. Neither has the goal of simply destruction for destruction's sake, but Zodiark's victory would necessarily require the destruction of everything we (the WoL) know and love (or at least vaguely care about depending on how you rp your WoL :p)

Basically my thoughts are we're gonna have to maintain the balance at the end of the day. If Zodiark wins, we (the WoL & co.) all die, but if Hydaelyn wins absolutely, there's every chance that the result would be the same. Zodiark is the heart of the old world, Hydaelyn is the heart of the new, and losing either could be catastrophic for everyone. That's what I think the end result will be anyway. I'm not sure destroying the primals will turn out to be the answer, but I guess we'll see haha

first off when ascian first the sky to open up for meteor show people who normal get echo got it for Hydialyn so in fact Hydialyn give the echo. this war with Hydialyn and Zodairk have going for thousand of years since Zodairk and ascian split the world. I argee these forum are frustrate and awful at time. I don't think anything will change if Hydialyn win what are talk about if hydialyn. I think Hydialyn only goal is to keep Zodiark imprison and life to contue If she win at that nothing will change. since she is already in control of the world she will change nothing the truth issue what will happen if Zodiark wins. look at Hydialyn as Lawful Neutral in dnd term for her life just has keep going with nothing to tried harm it by I mean ascian. look Zodiark as Chaotic Evil or lawful Evil set law that it want set corse of all life and consume it. there is another to look at Zodiark as an addicted god he was feed live aether to give him power bring back life by doing this he has become addict to living aether. I often state I theories the Zodiark and hydialyn are fundamental different at they core. if hydialyn exsist in sea of aether could mean she can create it and mention it aswell. where Zodiark could so addict to consume it that even if he was release he won't keep any of promise he made for. in same way the prime are similar the have surive on aether to exsist in world. if Hydialyn exsist in core of world she create aether her self too so much that create the sea of aether, in similar earth core of earth keep earth going in some ways

if your talk about the Viera tomb of Viera mage remember the 13 shards have exsist after war between Hydialyn and Zodiark

I didn't see any mention of in the new dungeon that they responsible for create the echo

there a finally way look at this ascian decide in create Zodiark they play gods yet in they attempt to doing this they ruin they world to Vanet and her followers realize this was the trajicat error doom they world by creator hydialyn this could be counter weight but since summon and create a god goes desire of those that create it Hydialyn desire protect life was Vanet desire aswell so Hydlialyn became that desire to protect life and to preseverity it. the humorous of the ascian to believe the can create life and belief that they better of that life that created effect Zodiark to believe that life that ascian believe is better effect him aswell.

faith effect how they creation was made aswell how the beast tribes prime can into the world

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

first off when ascian first the sky to open up for meteor show people who normal get echo got it for Hydialyn so in fact Hydialyn give the echo. this war with Hydialyn and Zodairk have going for thousand of years since Zodairk and ascian split the world. I argee these forum are frustrate and awful at time. I don't think anything will change if Hydialyn win what are talk about if hydialyn. I think Hydialyn only goal is to keep Zodiark imprison and life to contue If she win at that nothing will change. since she is already in control of the world she will change nothing the truth issue what will happen if Zodiark wins. look at Hydialyn as Lawful Neutral in dnd term for her life just has keep going with nothing to tried harm it by I mean ascian. look Zodiark as Chaotic Evil or lawful Evil set law that it want set corse of all life and consume it. there is another to look at Zodiark as an addicted god he was feed live aether to give him power bring back life by doing this he has become addict to living aether. I often state I theories the Zodiark and hydialyn are fundamental different at they core. if hydialyn exsist in sea of aether could mean she can create it and mention it aswell. where Zodiark could so addict to consume it that even if he was release he won't keep any of promise he made for. in same way the prime are similar the have surive on aether to exsist in world. if Hydialyn exsist in core of world she create aether her self too so much that create the sea of aether, in similar earth core of earth keep earth going in some ways

if your talk about the Viera tomb of Viera mage remember the 13 shards have exsist after war between Hydialyn and Zodiark

I didn't see any mention of in the new dungeon that they responsible for create the echo

there a finally way look at this ascian decide in create Zodiark they play gods yet in they attempt to doing this they ruin they world to Vanet and her followers realize this was the trajicat error doom they world by creator hydialyn this could be counter weight but since summon and create a god goes desire of those that create it Hydialyn desire protect life was Vanet desire aswell so Hydlialyn became that desire to protect life and to preseverity it. the humorous of the ascian to believe the can create life and belief that they better of that life that created effect Zodiark to believe that life that ascian believe is better effect him aswell.

faith effect how they creation was made aswell how the beast tribes prime can into the world

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I actually read this whole thing, and portions of it multiple times and I still have literally no idea what you are posting about.

https://i.gifer.com/PHi6.gif

[EDIT]Are you posting in code? Hmm... I will need a cipher.

first off I point there was no point that those create hydialyn state they create echo, I play through the dungeon that went past mlq I do something go off on tanject. through play the dungeon three time I look pay close attention to dungeon cutescene at end I found that there was no discuss between the scions about echo be create by Venet or her or his followers, Urainger refer to Hydialyn as chian the bide Zodiark though. I do believe a star be transfer into god is dramatic event that but it also humbest action of ascians. it often worried when humanity behavior this way with cells of children or cells of children to come. Venet hope restrain Zodiark murderous nation for human sacrifice, I agree there gain of truth of ascian history for them but one must look deep to find them again I believe hydialyn is lawful neutral when this conflict between her and ascian are over she problem will refrain involve in affair of mortals unless it is threat to life of the source or shards.

Hydialyn only made her present know when the ascian brought behamut into the world.

let look at this like war Hydialyn won a great victory against Zodiark by imprison him but it hollow victory because the ascian won victory still exsist so they shape the worlds history and event base on they view. manlupation you argue what they manipulation they been control events even Elibus see the ability to so confusion he toke it. one way an enemy tried defeat an enemy is by sow chaos by misinformation this was Elibus game with the WoL yes he was evil yet he had seed of truth but those seeds of truth where hiden by his view of his enemy we don't know all ffxiv till 5.3 so we guess. through Yoshi P interview about Elibus be more tried make air not be evil and was a good interview he did awesome job with villian make people question their action with what villains is say this awesome way doing villians it also play on what ascian has been tried doing the entire war with Hydialyn tried so chaos and misinformation into the war in many way they where one write the history as they said history is write by victory

writing disability sometime I skip word when I tried type sentives out it frustration of mine

I found it interest how much people trust Emet-Selch with what he said about Hydialyn, consider he work with and for Zodiark seem to me people don't realize one shouldn't trust they enemy because he desire the destruction of all the people on source and shards it show how quick people believe they enemy and not take what he said with grain of salt.

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

Elidibus is Zodairk heart

Venet is Hydaelyn heart but Venet has yet to reveal herself or has she reveal and none us realize who she is. aka the warrior of light.

how does one defeat elidibus solution the crystal tower. I theories that crystal arch is died but in his effect save both first and prevent elidibus for cause more damage to the first and the source he will bind elidibus to himself and take elidibus with him the theif really does run away with the hero prize in this case

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If Elidibus name is Sabik ^_-.

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

I found it interest how much people trust Emet-Selch with what he said about Hydialyn, consider he work with and for Zodiark seem to me people don't realize one shouldn't trust they enemy because he desire the destruction of all the people on source and shards it show how quick people believe they enemy and not take what he said with grain of salt.

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I absolutely don't trust him. But I do believe there was most likely truth in what he told us, and Elidibus' reaction to it - scorn and disgust - makes me believe even moreso that Emet had his own thoughts on everything that's happened that don't necessarily align with the other Ascians. Everything we've seen this expac has taught me the Ancients, Ascians included, are every bit as flawed and prone to emotional responses as present day residents of the Source and shards, and I have a hard time doubting that Emet was exactly the bitter, exhausted, angry old man SE painted him to be.

He was the WoL's enemy but destruction was a means to an end for him. His goal was to bring his people back from the dead, to restore a civilization he saw as better, more whole and more worthy. He could be lying, but I wouldn't be all that surprised to learn that he was being 100% truthful when he told us he desperately wanted us to prove ourselves worthy to carry on his people's legacy and be the Steward of the new world that his world was split into (even if he didn't say it with quite those words, that's definitely what I got from the story). I also wouldn't be surprised to learn that he was genuinely disappointed when we, in his eyes, failed to prove him wrong about us.

I don't trust Emet, but at this point I don't really trust the accuracy of Eorzea's recorded history or Hydaelyn and her summoners either.