As a dungeon runner...

I'm glad they only added one dungeon this time around. Kept it from getting boring too quickly.

Right?

...right?

:( I want more dungeons.

Honestly dungeons feel currently like outdated and low replayability design. It s fun the first time, not so much after n times.

Which is why having more than one released at a time helps. Keeps it from feeling too pointless after you get whatever you want out of it. Having 2+ at least keeps it from going stale immediately.

As a guildhest runner I've been starved for content since ARR.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

Honestly dungeons feel currently like outdated and low replayability design. It s fun the first time, not so much after n times.

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Its honestly cause theyre too linear and straight forward. No matter how pretty they look, boss mechanics and direction of dungeons is literally a gauntlet of enemies. Big pull to first boss, Wipe out stuff. Boss fight. Big pull to second boss, wipe out stuff, Second boss. Etc etc.

They need to sit down and think about design mechanics. I think one thing dungeons need to offer is variety of completion - either multiple paths with separate rewards per path that youre RNGed into (to prevent people just min maxing and selecting hte same path over and over), puzzles or challanges built into the dungeon that require something more to do than kill stuff (jump quest where 2 people in your party need to complete it to unlock a path so you all can proceed forward), challange bonuses for the dungeons (Speed clears, No deaths, dont use items, has to be synced, etc etc.) that feeds into a possible weekly ladder challange for things like MGP or bonus materials. Such as all runner ups get 10k MGP, while first gets 50, second gets 40, and third gets 30k MPG or possibly rewards kind of like how Khloe's journal operates. Or how about bonus mini bosses that are spawned when you complete certain objectives for the dungeon.

There's a lot they can do that can add variety and interest to dungeons, but they need to actually do it. Only thing I foresee being a problem is players will get pissed and say "It's to hard!" and whine.

They only have the budget for so many corridors at a time. Please understand.

/sign

I want more, i hate the current one and miss the old hard dungeons so much... it was nice gettin a new touch to known dungneons....

Really wish I could do old dungeons without feeling handicapped

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Originally Posted by Malmstrom

Which is why having more than one released at a time helps. Keeps it from feeling too pointless after you get whatever you want out of it. Having 2+ at least keeps it from going stale immediately.

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But it's still pointless once you have what you want.

You could always be running some of the other 60+ dungeons in the game if all you're after is variety in dungeon running.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Its honestly cause theyre too linear and straight forward. No matter how pretty they look, boss mechanics and direction of dungeons is literally a gauntlet of enemies. Big pull to first boss, Wipe out stuff. Boss fight. Big pull to second boss, wipe out stuff, Second boss. Etc etc.

They need to sit down and think about design mechanics. I think one thing dungeons need to offer is variety of completion - either multiple paths with separate rewards per path that youre RNGed into (to prevent people just min maxing and selecting hte same path over and over), puzzles or challanges built into the dungeon that require something more to do than kill stuff (jump quest where 2 people in your party need to complete it to unlock a path so you all can proceed forward), challange bonuses for the dungeons (Speed clears, No deaths, dont use items, has to be synced, etc etc.) that feeds into a possible weekly ladder challange for things like MGP or bonus materials. Such as all runner ups get 10k MGP, while first gets 50, second gets 40, and third gets 30k MPG or possibly rewards kind of like how Khloe's journal operates. Or how about bonus mini bosses that are spawned when you complete certain objectives for the dungeon.

There's a lot they can do that can add variety and interest to dungeons, but they need to actually do it. Only thing I foresee being a problem is players will get pissed and say "It's to hard!" and whine.

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Those alternate designs don't work in practice when players are primarily entering as a random group formed through a Duty Finder roulette.

Most players simply want to get in and out as fast as possible with their tomestones and whatever loot they manage to get. They aren't interested in exploring or taking the path less efficient. They're going to abandon duty the moment they find they need to complete a jump puzzle to progress then complain loudly to SE that it was stupid to add in jump puzzles when people who like jump puzzles already have Leap of Faith and the sightseeing logs.

Creating such dungeons as you suggest ends up a waste of developer time and resources when so few players end up fully utilizing them.

I know that this is the point some people would go "but Savage and Ultimate!". Those are mostly reused assets with a few graphics tweaks and new mechanics added in, something that takes relatively little time to accomplish compared to creating a complex dungeon from scratch.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Those alternate designs don't work in practice when players are primarily entering as a random group formed through a Duty Finder roulette.

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Why wouldnt it work? Are we assuming the player base is so inept they cant move through one corridor compared to another? Or that they cant complete jump puzzles? Or that objective based completion would be beyond them? Im not saying make the player scale mount everest, but rather they manage to walk up a short hill at the worst.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Most players simply want to get in and out as fast as possible with their tomestones and whatever loot they manage to get. They aren't interested in exploring or taking the path less efficient. They're going to abandon duty the moment they find they need to complete a jump puzzle to progress then complain loudly to SE that it was stupid to add in jump puzzles when people who like jump puzzles already have Leap of Faith and the sightseeing logs.

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See, I disagree. I think the opposite is gonna end up being true. Players who were vocal about it being to hard are a minority and that the player base would honestly appreciate more complexity from their dungeons. Where dungeons are a thing you have fun doing, and not a chore you fill out on a checklist. This is the problem with things being casual. There is such a thing as being too casual, to easy, to simple, to straight forward. If there's no reason to explore, nothing worth seeing, nothing fun to do, why would I even bother going over to those side routes. Way dungeons are designed now, they're just time sinks that if it were not for the daily tomestones, most people would ever bother with them simply because they are not fun to play.

Since loot is useless from dungeons, its more important to get Tomestones, and alternate paths just offer you pure trash, why would anyone spend any time in that dungeon. They turned it into a speed run by minimizing player interest, which I dont believe is what players overall wanted. Trash your own attraction, and then wonder why people dont bother visiting it.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Creating such dungeons as you suggest ends up a waste of developer time and resources when so few players end up fully utilizing them.

I know that this is the point some people would go "but Savage and Ultimate!". Those are mostly reused assets with a few graphics tweaks and new mechanics added in, something that takes relatively little time to accomplish compared to creating a complex dungeon from scratch.

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Most hard modes in of earlier dungeons were just reused assets. And since they were cranking out two dungeons per patch and dialing it back to one, it leaves us to wonder what exactly are they doing with that extra time? So if its a time constraint that's worth while, that seems a bit odd since they should have more time now unless theyre using that time to create F/M Hrothgar/Viera. As for 'content' for players, since the broad bulk fo hte player base doesnt do savage, wouldnt it make more sense to dump time and complexity into content most players have access too. What good is grinding out tomestones in a boring dungeon if you never plan on doing savage. Even if the gear is better than what you have, most players arent so stupid that they cant see it's pointless if they can clear current dungeons without issue by being I lvl 440.

People keep saying "Give me more to do" but then we keep saying "Nah, more complex dungeons and things, no one will want that?" That seems stupid. I used to remember people cleared all of Brayflox in ARR for exp and items. They dont do it anymore cause all would be rewards are useless, and if the only incentive is "You want to kill more monsters just cause", of course people are just gonna make a straight line to the end. Why wouldnt they?

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

/sign

I want more, i hate the current one and miss the old hard dungeons so much... it was nice gettin a new touch to known dungneons....

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Would you want more of the old dungeons turned into Hard mode ones?

I would love to see more variety in Expert Roulette, but I think a lot of that is due to the fact that I just don't enjoy Anamnesis (and don't love Cosmos). If at least one of the options was one I actively liked, I would probably be at least fine with it but when you have two bad choices it just amplifies the problem.

I find it interesting the new dungeon is very anti "pull to boss" with the slow pack dispensing in the beginning and the "summon" packs in the building itself.

Seems the Devs are trying to stop or at least slow down the wall to wall pulling.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I find it interesting the new dungeon is very anti "pull to boss" with the slow pack dispensing in the beginning and the "summon" packs in the building itself.

Seems the Devs are trying to stop or at least slow down the wall to wall pulling.

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They've been doing that since the start of ShB, if you noticed.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I find it interesting the new dungeon is very anti "pull to boss" with the slow pack dispensing in the beginning and the "summon" packs in the building itself.

Seems the Devs are trying to stop or at least slow down the wall to wall pulling.

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They've been doing that for a while now.

Most dungeons since StB have been limiting trash pulls to like 1-2 packs at a time.

Which, ironically, just adds to the pitiful state of Healers in ShB... Since, the one time they can actually feel like healers in this game, spending most of their GCD's on healing skills instead of DPS ones, is when a Tank mass pulls trash in dungeons and so is taking actual damage at a constant rate.

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

They've been doing that since the start of ShB, if you noticed.

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have noticed, but the beginning of the latest dungeon is just outright "one pack at a time plz".

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Originally Posted by DuskTS

As a guildhest runner I've been starved for content since ARR.

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They did kind of just..abandoned it after 40.

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

They've been doing that since the start of ShB, if you noticed.

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It's been a thing since heavensward but only now is it more pronounced. I remember one of his interviews where he basically says he doesn't like people rushing through dungeons. So what you have is some dungeons with annoying walls, or something else in it to pad the dungeon.

I wouldn't mind more dungeons, if the gameplay was more dungeon focused.
In 1.0 this would have been great since there was much more to do in dungeons that just 'get to the end'.

But that's not what this game does now.

Yeah I admit, I would like more dungeons too. Only two dungeons in the Expert Runs leaves a serious lack of variety.

And Kalise is right. Without the mass mob packs it makes healers bored out of their minds, DPS too.

Ooo ahh... a whopping 2 mobs... I feel soooo threatened.. That's the reason for the mass mob pulls, because without them, dungeons do get incredibly boring. No one takes any damage and it makes them feel pointless. DPS powers and abilities are wayyyyy stronger than just two mob spreads, and healers don't even have to heal much because tank mitigation takes care of most of it.

I'm for the reverse... throw even more mobs at people until they are nearly overwhelmed.

Single target abilities were designed for Boss Mobs... not trash mobs, so they are way over the necessary power needed. And if you pump up trash mobs they're no longer just dungeon minions anymore but just another boss mob in and of themselves.

Try fighting an ARMY on your way in... that changes the whole perspective and freaks people out as much as any strong boss mob does.

There was this old game D&D MMO that did this long ago called Neverwinter Nights MMO. Prior to a complete rework of all the Jobs... the original dungeons were soooo packed with mobs that it was easy for the party to get completely overwhelmed and wiped out. But they wanted to make money off PvP so they changed everything to single target and and then had to change the dungeons too because no one could get through them anymore.

Now those were some seriously intense dungeon crawls. Castle Neverwinter was a seriously intense dungeon to go through. So was the one with the Aboleth.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

There was this old game D&D MMO that did this long ago called Neverwinter Nights MMO. Prior to a complete rework of all the Jobs... the original dungeons were soooo packed with mobs that it was easy for the party to get completely overwhelmed and wiped out. But they wanted to make money off PvP so they changed everything to single target and and then had to change the dungeons too because no one could get through them anymore.

Now those were some seriously intense dungeon crawls. Castle Neverwinter was a seriously intense dungeon to go through. So was the one with the Aboleth.

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I didn't know they changed NWN like that.
I remember the massive amounts of enemies. Good times.
Sad to hear they changed it so vastly.

Yeah it was too bad.

Those were fun times indeed.

I wonder; an elegant solution might be to just make more hardmode dungeons in the future, or possibly a third tier of dungeons (so Haukke Ex, or something). Basically having a 1 dungeon with 3 possible paths, or story arcs but as 3 different dungeons.

I also wouldn’t mind revisiting previous dungeons without a hardmode/etc title. Simply a dungeon named something like “ Blah Blah (Path A)” and Blah Blah (path B)” would be fine. Allows for same/similar art, even basic layout with different corridors and bosses. Dunno, maybe that’d be too confusing?

Could also reuse some dungeons for some kind of pve content (like copied factory). Mining/botanist “dungeon” or some such.

I wish they could just add mythic dungeon style content to FFXIV, we need harder small form content anwyays.

I understand they're not to everyone's taste and the developers want to add more diverse content, but I too am a bit disappointed to the move of 1 dungeon per patch, never more.

The pickup and relatively short time it takes to do dungeons makes them perfect content for filthy casuls like me, but knowing a dungeon will be on EX Roulette for six months now will inevitably lead to drudgery by the time it rotates out. With the relic weapon quest still about a month away I'm pretty bored right now...

I'd be all for alternate paths, so long as more chests with actual gear in them can be found. With the changes to desynth I can definitely use even more gear to get rare mats from. An expansion later and I'd be appreciating this even more for once I can go into it unsynced, or with the Trusts.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

See, I disagree. I think the opposite is gonna end up being true.

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No, it won't
World of Warcraft tried non linear dungeons with optional bosses in multiple expansions and the result was always the same: group drama. Some want them, some are already sick to death of grinding said dungeon for currency and don't want them... flame, diss, tanks refusing to pull, group drops, abandoned runs... you name it.

It just didn't work.

Why? Beacuse exploring is a one time thing. We farm (are made to farm) dungeons for 6 months almost on a daily basis. After 3 months, no one wants to "explore" and "take their time". They want to get it over with and move on.

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Originally Posted by Awha

I wish they could just add mythic dungeon style content to FFXIV, we need harder small form content anwyays.

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Bleargh.
Stupid against the clock zergfests are not things I miss from that game.
I like the concept of mobs hitting harder / getting cool abilities but the whole speed rush thing is such a turn off.

Give me brutal dungeons with the slow, tactical approach... and a guild to run them with. :D

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I wonder; an elegant solution might be to just make more hardmode dungeons in the future, or possibly a third tier of dungeons (so Haukke Ex, or something). Basically having a 1 dungeon with 3 possible paths, or story arcs but as 3 different dungeons.

I also wouldn’t mind revisiting previous dungeons without a hardmode/etc title. Simply a dungeon named something like “ Blah Blah (Path A)” and Blah Blah (path B)” would be fine. Allows for same/similar art, even basic layout with different corridors and bosses. Dunno, maybe that’d be too confusing?

Could also reuse some dungeons for some kind of pve content (like copied factory). Mining/botanist “dungeon” or some such.

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This is my thought as well. I can understand them not doing completely new dungeons, especially if those dungeons don't really tie into the story at all and are just sort of side content. But a nice compromise would definitely be to just re-use and remix content they are already creating. It doesn't even specifically have to be for a "Hard Mode" it can just be taking areas, enemies, bosses, etc. and remixing them in alternate ways. Maybe adding new mechanics or changing mechanics here and there, of course. As an example, they could certainly take pieces of Copied Factory (just like they did in the single player instance version), enemies from Copied Factory and bosses from Copied Factory and create a 4 man version of the instance. Say the 1st boss could still be the first boss, the tank could be the second boss and Hobbes could be the final boss or something.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Bleargh.
Stupid against the clock zergfests are not things I miss from that game.
I like the concept of mobs hitting harder / getting cool abilities but the whole speed rush thing is such a turn off.

Give me brutal dungeons with the slow, tactical approach... and a guild to run them with. :D

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They do not have to make the speed run aspect a primary part of it, granted that is the aspect I enjoyed most, even if they did not tie anything in regards to finishing it quickly I would still try to speed clear it. I just wish we had harder small form content idc what form it takes be it deep dungeons, mythic dunegons, or simply ultimate difficulty dungeons that vomits mechanics at you.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Teven if they did not tie anything in regards to finishing it quickly I would still try to speed clear it.

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Sure but I can do that w/o a clock pressuring me.
I'm allergic to timed stuff in any game, it's a personal thing. It just completely nukes any enjoyment for me.

If we only get 1 dungeon per patch now, I wish they would put more thought and effort into it. Ever since I played the Dragon Age: Inquisition multiplayer, I was wishing that Square would implement multiple paths, and the route in your dungeon would always change depending on your party makeup.

Tanks could break through walls, rogues could open locked doors, mages could lift and repair broken bridges with their magic. With FFXIV's different Jobs, maybe they could have other interesting scenarios, like out of reach levers that can only be accessed by a Dragoon performing their jump.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Sure but I can do that w/o a clock pressuring me.
I'm allergic to timed stuff in any game, it's a personal thing. It just completely nukes any enjoyment for me.

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Understandable I could live without the in game timer, I could always just time myself or even use fflogs if people wanted to make an outside leaderboard.

The problem is they’ve designed the game in a sense that dungeons are useless. All of the things that matter are trials.

Coil had a sort of dungeon theme to it, although ultimately the final
boss was all that mattered reward wise. Then it was steadily phased out through Alexander and gone by Stomblood. Now you just warp in straight to the boss for a raid.

So raids are trials. The extreme fights are trials. The final big fight of the game in both Stomblood and Shadowbringers was a trial. And all progression based loot drops are acquired from trials and extremes. As well as other desirables such as mounts, I think the only mount you get from a dungeon is the magitek predator.

So what’s the point in dungeons? You don’t get anything worthwhile from doing them and they’ve conditioned us to not care about them by putting all worthy rewards behind trials.

It’s a shame, as I actually like dungeons too. But this game is set in its ways now, I don’t see it getting any better for dungeons.

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Originally Posted by MrPresident

So what’s the point in dungeons? You don’t get anything worthwhile from doing them

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Tomestones and the endgame gear for virtually every non raider would like to have a word with you. :D

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Tomestones and the endgame gear for virtually every non raider would like to have a word with you. :D

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As well as gear to desynth (and also to give to side-classes) and materia to sell.

You can cap on tomestones easily every single week without touching a dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Tomestones and the endgame gear for virtually every non raider would like to have a word with you. :D

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Hunt trains are 10 times more efficient for tomes, shower you with materia and 8 man and crafted loot is far superior and has never been easier to get. Not to mention dungeon loot is nearly always inferior to the easy-to-get normal mode/tome loot from the previous tier too.

Dungeons in their current state are a waste of development time and are horribly designed. It's a chore everyone overgears where you just zerg to the end, pulling everything in sight and throwing the basics of good play out the window because who cares. You just want it done and over.

I'm disappointed that they're so stubbornly against Mythic+ or actual hard endgame dungeons, that they'd actually give up making half of them entirely instead.

I feel like they've kind of painted themselves into the corner with the way they develop content on this extremely predictable set of cycles.

The dungeons are only one part of their interlocking gear and content patterns and can't just be made better on their own. It would probably be for the best if they completely overhauled the entire system of dungeons, tomestones, and raids, yet they've reached a comfortable point where everyone is fine with it and expects more of the same. If they did redo everything at a suitable point like after another expansion, they risk implementing a worse one than the one they have now, so instead they just continue on and every once in a while reduce the dungeons to try something new.

I am a huge dungeon fan as well... but it really is a shame that there is no real incentive to do dungeons in FFXIV. I don't need the gear from dungeons because it is below my tomestone ilvl and use it simply for company seals which have no real purpose except some crafting mats. Sure you can make money out of the gear you get from dungeons but I highly believe that there are better ways to make Gil ingame. As sad as this this dungeon concept FFXIV has is I support SE in trying something different. Hopefully they come up with something more worthwhile and interesting.

What if they did a map style dungeon.. think Aurum Veil opening area+ branching paths from Thousand Maws an maybe a touch of Eureka where the bosses spawn in to open areas you cleared out once their minions were gone..

So you get a dungeon with many open areas an lots of mobs you can pull as many or as few as comfortable.. then once that area is cleared boss spawns in the same area.. no stop between the final add an boss.. so you wanna work with your party to keep HP/MP and cooldowns ready for the boss.

Once you've completed an open zone its branching paths to the next area.. different mobs and mini bosses spawns depending which pathway you take.. all leading into the second an final boss for the dungeon..

Ofcourse chests down each branching path and chance to get all of them if you backtrack.. maybe add in special random chance mobs that drops chests like from the canals?

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Originally Posted by MrPresident

Coil had a sort of dungeon theme to it, although ultimately the final boss was all that mattered reward wise. Then it was steadily phased out through Alexander and gone by Stomblood. Now you just warp in straight to the boss for a raid.

So raids are trials. The extreme fights are trials. The final big fight of the game in both Stomblood and Shadowbringers was a trial. And all progression based loot drops are acquired from trials and extremes. As well as other desirables such as mounts, I think the only mount you get from a dungeon is the magitek predator.

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The fact that people still call the boss fights "raids" is crazy to me when they are literally just boss fights. The general consensus from raiders in this games (at least the ones I've heard from) tend to hate having to travel to the boss fighting trash mobs and enjoy just starting off there from the jump. I see both sides of the argument...While the mobs and actuallyu travelling into the area to the boss provides a raid-like experience, ultimately they're just for just that. The boss is where the loot is. That's the main objective.

I personally enjoy dungeons myself. Mainly because I love the expreience. Going through The vault for the first time (and still to this day) is still awesome for me. Sohr Khai is another good one. Even going through some of the newer ones like Amaurot and Anamnesis Anyder is pretty cool. There are a bunch of cool little details in the background that impress me more than just an arena with a boss. I wish SE would create something where instead of it just being a linear path, create something with branching paths and multiple bosses. Add in puzzles that the party has to work together to solve. Add jumping puzzles that lead to secret areas and bits of lore. Shit like that would be awesome...