SE, please buff Dragoon ...

Job already have the worst options for melee utility, now it is, also, the worst option for melee damage.

It should be fighting with Monk for the 2nd place in melee DPS, now it fights for the 3rd place with Ninja, who has the best options for melee raid utility.

An increase in potency/rDPS should do the work.

Also, Summoner is still way ahead than it should be.

What?

Seriously, what? Dragoon is still a powerhouse and by far the most played Melee. In fact, until TEA, Dragoon was the most played job by a country landslide. It has all but dominated Shadowbringers. It should be more or less balanced with Ninja given a lot of Ninja's utilities were stripped away. With all that said, Dragoon's damage has suffered somewhat this tier. That, however, is due to it having zero range options in a tier that seems to despise Melee. Piercing Talon is such a worthless ability, it's better to do absolutely nothing. If anything, that needs to be fixed; preferably through both a damage boost and it no longer breaking your combo.

Simply put, the only reason Ninja has pulled ahead is due to Mudras being on the GCD now. So they lose less disengaging. If you straight up buff Dragoon's overall damage, they'd be far too strong in any fight without downtime.

Goon? Get buffs?
Absolutely no.
Summoner? Still too strong?
Absolutely yes.

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Originally Posted by Polluxx

Job already have the worst options for melee utility, now it is, also, the worst option for melee damage.

It should be fighting with Monk for the 2nd place in melee DPS, now it fights for the 3rd place with Ninja, who has the best options for melee raid utility.

An increase in potency/rDPS should do the work.

Also, Summoner is still way ahead than it should be.

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The worst option for melee utility ? Sorry what ? Litany makes godly openers, even moreso that crit power creep will start again with this tier (with it being best op stat in the final one).

Good DPS also comes from peaking really high in openers and then smoothing and lengthening the drop the most you can. Starting slow is manageable but it doesn't do wonders in the end, and DRG helps a lot avoiding that.

As for personal dmg : this is a tier where melee finally have to struggle for uptime in 5.x so ofc it will feel lackluster to you, especially for the reason Forte explained on NIN desengaging mitigation

Please nerf dragoons endlessly.
I don't want them in my e8s groups, because they can not stand still and have to use a jump in P1 tower phase and are the main reason that I can't get a group to practice the Add phase and further.

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Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono

Summoner? Still too strong?
Absolutely yes.

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That might be the case, but what if it wasn't?
BLM would then be absolutely unbalanced, it would have no competition at all. At least now BLM is not a forced choice.

Dragoons all risk with no reward i just want them to remove dragon-sight personally, i wouldn't mind a little buff but people won't agree with that because they are popular but what people don't understand is the reason Why they are popular.... because FFXI they started out as a great job that became nerfed into the ground and overshadowed by ninja and never to be touched really ever again..... so ya.

IN THE FUTURE I'd like to see them consolidate dragon-sight and give dragoon an attack back or something extra right now everything just feels so wonky and clunky, and they still to this day haven't fixed dragoons running animation. I was a huge fan of power surge as well, but the job hasn't felt the same since its removal, with the introduction of dragon sight which i've been hoping to be removed for 2 expansions now, they claim they removed abilities like Heavy Thrust and Phlebotomize to prevent button bloat, but then we have have things like Piercing Talon and blood of the dragoon which has been buffed so much to the point where it doesn't really add anything to the job besides flavor.

I'm already waiting for the next expansion because dragoon didn't really change all to much since storm-blood, I feel like they need an OGCD attack, extremely minor changes, i find it a lot less complicated once again then the previous expansion to play, and with the shift of the GCD forward, makes for some strange stuff indeed.


I think the only change they should make is to change Life-Surge to a flat damage bonus, instead of auto-critical, as this design decision limits the gear choices dragoon can take, which isn't an issue other jobs have.


I wouldn't call Dragoon overpowered though just because it's very popular , It just has zero options for disengaging the boss outside using your Aoe Rotation, with the exception of Piercing talon which is by far the worst range attack in the game, also since other melee jobs have on-demand utility gap-closing abilities, dragoons are baked into it's kit and it's rotation, not to mention it's hard punishment on positional attacks, and it's lack of sharing left side gear with any other classes....

I'm going to either call that troll or ignorant.

"Paper is overpowered and should be nerfed, Scissor is fine" _The Rock

I've been playing DRG since 2.0, it's always been high risk little reward, it's not that it isn't fun though, they just keep making it clunkier, and won't address the elephant in the room : Dragon-Sight.

Melee balance is probably okay right now. As groups start to optimize we'll see DRG and NIN climb up a bit, and we may also be able to attribute part of SAM's lead to some number of groups feeding their SAM gear. This tier is a bit DRG-unfriendly, but you shouldn't go fussing with job balance because of encounter specifics that are only apt to matter temporarily. That's how 3.4 happened.

Dragoon is fine. It needs no buffs whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

I'm going to either call that troll or ignorant.

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why not both. :P

But all seriousness dragoon is pretty good atm. No buffs are needed

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

What?

Seriously, what? Dragoon is still a powerhouse and by far the most played Melee. In fact, until TEA, Dragoon was the most played job by a country landslide. It has all but dominated Shadowbringers. It should be more or less balanced with Ninja given a lot of Ninja's utilities were stripped away. With all that said, Dragoon's damage has suffered somewhat this tier. That, however, is due to it having zero range options in a tier that seems to despise Melee. Piercing Talon is such a worthless ability, it's better to do absolutely nothing. If anything, that needs to be fixed; preferably through both a damage boost and it no longer breaking your combo.

Simply put, the only reason Ninja has pulled ahead is due to Mudras being on the GCD now. So they lose less disengaging. If you straight up buff Dragoon's overall damage, they'd be far too strong in any fight without downtime.

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Class/Job popularity has little to nothing to do with Class/Job technical game design... Ninja still have Trick Attack, wich is a better raid utility than litany (Raid increased damage per minute >>>> Raid increased Critical Rating per 3 minutes), even Monk's Brotherhood is a better raid utility than Litany, and Dragon Sight is more of a personal buff than a group buff.

I completely agree with the lack of range options and Piercing Talon being shit. I'm not asking for a BIG potency buff in every skill, but a better potency balance since Dragoon have the worst raid utility of mDPS jobs, it's easier to achieve that with potency buffs.

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Originally Posted by Karshan

The worst option for melee utility ? Sorry what ? Litany makes godly openers, even moreso that crit power creep will start again with this tier (with it being best op stat in the final one).

Good DPS also comes from peaking really high in openers and then smoothing and lengthening the drop the most you can. Starting slow is manageable but it doesn't do wonders in the end, and DRG helps a lot avoiding that.

As for personal dmg : this is a tier where melee finally have to struggle for uptime in 5.x so ofc it will feel lackluster to you, especially for the reason Forte explained on NIN desengaging mitigation

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As a said for ForteNightshade, Trick Attack is a 15s raid damage 5% increase at every minute, Brotherhood is a 15s raid physical damage 5% increase at every minute and a half ... Battle Litany is a 20s raid critical rating 10% increase ate every 3 minutes ... increased damage + less cooldown >>>> increased critical rating + more cooldown.

"Overshadowed by nin"
Nin deserves rdps just as much if not more than drg. This tier favors having some ranged uptime. These jerks that cant handle their class being the lowest by a small margin like it is piss me off. Melee balance may not be ordered like i personally want it, but all 4 classes are so close that it doesn't matter. If you read my posts you should know I think utility classes should have more rDPS at 90 percentile up than selfish, so i would personally put DRG above SAM and NIN above SAM at that point (MNK debatable because of mild exterior utility) but the gap is so small right now for the most part it barely matters.

Keep in mind graphics on the statistic website are of course skewed to frame things in current dps range.

Excluding the absolute outlier 100th percentile parse: (all looking at savage of course and RDPS)

E5 sees DRG being beaten by 2.7% by SAM in rDPS with the gap decreasing as percentile decreases

E6 Sees NIN in front because of the high movement and high downtime in the fight and a few other key moments for aoe burst. DRG is actually on AVG beating MNK here. Gap gets as big as 2.5% Not close to the NIN loss on E7

E7 NIN sits at the bottom SAM back on top. with a gap of 3.9% between the two Biggest gap so Shouldnt NIN if anything get a buff then eh? This is the biggest gap in the tier between melee of the 4 fights.

E8 DRG sits at the bottom close to NIN with a 3.4% gap to SAM in rDPS.

In Summary DRG is lowest melee in 2 fights. Worst gap is NIN to SAM in E7 where the nin loss is the largest. NIN also wins tho in E6 at higher percentiles. And MNK is the lowest in one. The only outlier I see is SAM might be a bit overtuned.
My point. It barely matters and it fluctuates. all melee are more than viable right now. I personally think BLM and SMN need to be nerfed slightly atm, but I dont mind if they aren't. And BRD and DNC need to be buffed more than anything else. Complaining about DRGs state in the game right now is sad. ...Also im pretty nearly certain SMN has more free movement right now than RDM....

For kicks here is the percentage gap between Top place, Lowest melee or caster relative, Lowest range each tier excluding Max and Minimum parses:

E5 BLM lead over DRG 3.9%, BLM lead DNC 10.1%

E6 SMN lead over MNK 5.6% SMN lead BRD 8.2%

E7 SAM lead over BLM by 2.75%. SAM lead over DNC by 11.1%

E8 BLM lead over DRG 5% BLM lead over BRD 10.2%

My point? DRGs are welcome to complain about other mechanical class issues of theirs. And there are legitimate reasons for ranged being lowest (but they shouldn't be THAT low). SMN has no excuse to be as strong as it is with all its movement options and rez ability in my mind. I love SMN. Its the caster I play (i have one lvled class of each roleset) Its way fun, but it is a bit too strong. Improvements are always nice. But DPS wise DRGs position in the lineup is not a problem spot at all.

DRG and SMN are also both the most played dps classes. With about 50% more parses than any of the others. Least played is currently RDM you are at most 3.7x (looking at savage not trials) more likely to see a SMN or DRG right now than a red mage To me that says non Mains are gravitating more towards these classes (DRG and SMN) and if anything their numbers are thus mildly deflated on average by players that haven't mastered the classes but have flocked too them. (probably less deflation on DRGs part cause its ALWAYS been the most played class)

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

That might be the case, but what if it wasn't?
BLM would then be absolutely unbalanced, it would have no competition at all. At least now BLM is not a forced choice.

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BLM is never a forced choice because it also has the potential to be REALLY crappy because of how it functions. BLM rotation is brain dead. BUT BLM rotation applied optimally in fights with movement and downtime (may) be the hardest thing in the game to perfect. SMN shouldn't contest BLM IMO. if anything contests, it should be melee in general.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

Keep in mind graphics on the statistic website are of course skewed to frame things in current dps range.

Excluding the absolute outlier 100th percentile parse: (all looking at savage of course and RDPS)

E5 sees DRG being beaten by 2.7% by SAM in rDPS with the gap decreasing as percentile decreases

E6 Sees NIN in front because of the high movement and high downtime in the fight and a few other key moments for aoe burst. DRG is actually on AVG beating MNK here. Gap gets as big as 2.5% Not close to the NIN loss on E7

E7 NIN sits at the bottom SAM back on top. with a gap of 3.9% between the two Biggest gap so Shouldnt NIN if anything get a buff then eh? This is the biggest gap in the tier between melee of the 4 fights.

E8 DRG sits at the bottom close to NIN with a 3.4% gap to SAM in rDPS.

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You are just using statistics to make numbers talk what you want them to talk, if you look at the overall percentile, DRGs are the most parsed DPS and yet, the less damaging dealer mDPS. The core question here is the balance between doing damage directly (personal buffs and playskill) and indirectly (raid wide buffs/raid utility), and DRG is in a position completely unfair, since he has little personal DPS and the worst raid utility of mDPS (except for SAM), that said, there is two ways to fix that:

1 - Raid Utility buff

Or

2 - Personal damage buff

Simple as that, and yes, DRG do have mechanical issues that needs to be fixed, but these are harder to make, it involves a lot more effort than adding potencies numbers.

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Originally Posted by Polluxx

You are just using statistics to make numbers talk what you want them to talk, if you look at the overall percentile, DRGs are the most parsed DPS and yet, the less damaging dealer mDPS. The core question here is the balance between doing damage directly (personal buffs and playskill) and indirectly (raid wide buffs/raid utility), and DRG is in a position completely unfair, since he has little personal DPS and the worst raid utility of mDPS (except for SAM), that said, there is two ways to fix that:

1 - Raid Utility buff

Or

2 - Personal damage buff

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You do realize that fflogs numbers are rDPS that already account for raid utility buffs, right?

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Originally Posted by Polluxx

...

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Please note that i cited the BIGGEST gap at any point along the percentile ignoring outliers (for some very obvious reasons)
As such you should be able to clearly see dragoon is a position completely fair but perhaps not perfect to your ideals of who should be the best

At the end of the day you have no legitimate reason beyond opinion that DRG should be better rDPS than NIN or MNK or SAM for that matter.

And at the end of the day DRG MNK and NIN are all fairly in line right now with SAM as the outlier. So if you want a change... Hmm where should it maybe be? And what outliers are BIGGER i.e. numerically more important? Those regarding SMN, RDM, and ranged Phys roles.

The numbers talk what I want them to talk because quite frankly.....my statements concerning numbers are about as objective as any argument can get because people have differing opinions about what balanced game design entails, and the numbers are contrary to your opinion in the larger scheme of balance.

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Originally Posted by Polluxx

You are just using statistics to make numbers talk what you want them to talk, if you look at the overall percentile, DRGs are the most parsed DPS and yet, the less damaging dealer mDPS.

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This line is one of the dumber things i have read today. Like you made a statement as if it was some special statement and then just non sequitur talk as if that somehow logically amounts to a conclusion.... that you present as an arbitrary question.

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Originally Posted by Renkei

I think the only change they should make is to change Life-Surge to a flat damage bonus, instead of auto-critical, as this design decision limits the gear choices dragoon can take, which isn't an issue other jobs have.

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Have you met Warrior? Machinist? Bard, once upon a time? Monk, until being compensated for with DM? It's a long-standing problem, even if not a significant one.

Just convert excess chance to additional effectiveness, e.g. a 120% chance of a +25% damage DHit --> 100% chance of a +30% damage DHit. There, now all current and future users of Auto-Crits and Auto-DHits can take whatever gear their want (in the case of DHit, as Crit gear already gave the guaranteed Crit more damage) and benefit fully from raid buffs (in the case of either).

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Dragoon is fine. It needs no buffs whatsoever.

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Agreed /10

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Have you met Warrior? Machinist? Bard, once upon a time? Monk, until being compensated for with DM? It's a long-standing problem, even if not a significant one.

Just convert excess chance to additional effectiveness, e.g. a 120% chance of a +25% damage DHit --> 100% chance of a +30% damage DHit. There, now all current and future users of Auto-Crits and Auto-DHits can take whatever gear their want (in the case of DHit, as Crit gear already gave the guaranteed Crit more damage) and benefit fully from raid buffs (in the case of either).

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I've been playing since 2.0 so yes I am aware of this being an issue, some buffs are flat damage buffs and the flat damage buffs have the biggest potential over critical or direct hit buffs in terms of rdps because you have to meet the condition of the buff in order for it to attribute damage. Litany boosts Critical hit rating so it's more beneficial to use comps that prioritize critical, but there are comps that can prioritize DH which dragoon and some other jobs do not have the flexibility to participate in. But statically you trade an auto critical for its direct damage bonus actually lowering your critical rating because jobs like samurai can actually stack everything except critical and get away with it, same thing with other jobs that give direct damage bonus buffs, I think there should be a balance of what people prefer to use and optimal this expansion was suppose to balance all substats but didn't actually get anywhere close fixing the problem there is just more RNG then before.

Litany is +10% critical rating and has lots of RNG to get the maximum bonus out of it since it relies on everyone else Criting when it's cast while flat damage buffs are superior I've honestly wondered why they haven't removed dragonsight change litany to 20% and buff Lance charge to 20% or Keep litany 10% and buff charge to 30%

No. Dragoon is completely fine. Obligatory "L2P".

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Originally Posted by Renkei

I've been playing since 2.0 so yes I am aware of this being an issue, some buffs are flat damage buffs and the flat damage buffs have the biggest potential over critical or direct hit buffs in terms of rdps because you have to meet the condition of the buff in order for it to attribute damage. Litany boosts Critical hit rating so it's more beneficial to use comps that prioritize critical, but there are comps that can prioritize DH which dragoon and some other jobs do not have the flexibility to participate in. But statically you trade an auto critical for its direct damage bonus actually lowering your critical rating because jobs like samurai can actually stack everything except critical and get away with it, same thing with other jobs that give direct damage bonus buffs, I think there should be a balance of what people prefer to use and optimal this expansion was suppose to balance all substats but didn't actually get anywhere close fixing the problem there is just more RNG then before.

Litany is +10% critical rating and has lots of RNG to get the maximum bonus out of it since it relies on everyone else Criting when it's cast while flat damage buffs are superior I've honestly wondered why they haven't removed dragonsight change litany to 20% and buff Lance charge to 20% or Keep litany 10% and buff charge to 30%

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Just as with Warrior's Inner Release and MCH's Reassemble, removing auto-Crits from Dragoon only serves to increase their dependence on random chance in a skill that was crafted specifically to reduce that dependence. You may at present be an ultimatum between having skills that offer less RNG dependence and those same skills benefiting from all compositions, but it takes only the smallest of adjustments to fix it. It's like complaining that you can't get past someone in a narrowish hallway when you both refuse to so much as turn your bodies to fit past; a minute adjustment and the conflict is gone. So why not just make the adjustment rather than throwing our hands up in condemnation of anything that dares reduce RNG dependence via an auto-Crit or auto-DHit?

I find DRG quite balanced at the moment, wouldnt even call them overtuned.
If i wanted anything to change would be dragon sight becoming a self-buff. Only that.
Otherwise dunno, i feel like they are the best they have ever been

The only buff for Dragoon I can get behind is increasing the wheeling thrust/fang and claw, raiden thrust and any other sub 15 second timer it has to 15 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

a minute adjustment and the conflict is gone. So why not just make the adjustment rather than throwing our hands up in condemnation of anything that dares reduce RNG dependence via an auto-Crit or auto-DHit?

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It is a tiny fix, but yes Warrior MCHs, and DRG's Auto Critical just Converts the next attack into what ever your critical damage bonus wasthese abilities existed prior to direct-hit existing, the only way to truly rid it of RNG is to make those abilities Auto-Crit/DH, or Give it a flat damage bonus, But it's also more complex then that, Warrior Benefits from skill-speed but lacks a dot for some strange reason, Dragoon its a detriment to have skill-speed except at very certain integers that round with jumps animation lock.

Yes jobs are free and open to adjust gear in order to adjust to compositions but DRG doesn't benefit from Skill-speed the same way, Currently with the way that the gear is designed they don't offer enough freedom of choice or sub-stats to warrant all types of play styles and preferences, every one of these jobs will be stacking Critical, Warrior ignores as much tenacity as it can but needs around 1500 SKS, They honestly are mostly plagued with the same issue, But My biggest issue with DRG is the fact it doesn't share any left side gear pieces with any classes, neither does NIN, while jobs like Samurai allow you to play MNK, and MCH allows you to play DNC, and BRD. All the jobs that share gear with others are the ones dominating currently, Warriors require a Re-meld in order to be optimal with another job.

I have long adjusted to it but the game designers haven't. some of these jobs to line up properly with the rest of jobs in a meaningful way, Most of the changes are removals of abilities that they felt were "bloat" while they decided to keep clunkier abilities, i think with the current design direction it is clear that they have less time to spend on this game and balance it then ever before They have mentioned in the past that jobs with raise shouldn't be outputting more damage then any other job, but now we have the current state of summoner, they gave it a tiny Nerf because its their intention to keep it actually over powered and the state of them saying they wouldn't release the balance adjustment notes until the patch to later find out there was hardly any balance adjustments.


for Empirical evidence let me post a skill Ceiling list that shows the min and max damage differences across all percentiles.


SMN 15,613.84 -18,277.44 = -2,663.6‬ N=25,678
SAM 15,493.26 -18,238.72 = -2,745.46‬ N=22,991
BLM 15,533.46 -18,232.88 = -2699.42 N=13,234
MNK 15,198.62 -17,758.58 = -2,559.96‬ N=12,881
DRG 15,054.07 -17,588.03 = -2,533.96‬ N=27,996
NIN 15,157.65 -17,527.45 = -2,369.8‬ N=17,170
RDM 15,027.03 -17,464.81 = -2,437.78‬ N=14,067
MCH 14,875.23 -16,622.81 = -1,747.58‬ N=17,821
DNC 14,237.44 -16,573.73 = -2,336.29‬ N=16,270
BRD 14,303.41 -16,188.50 = -1,885.09‬ N=15,770

I'm also happy with where DRG is this expansion. If I could ask for a change then it would be tor them to add a refresh for Disembowel, like how Monk and Warrior have one for their buff, to one of our aoe moves, or add it as a bonus for for properly doing the combo.

Dragoon doesn't need buffs, it's still one of the strongest melee even if it doesn't have an absolute stranglehold on the meta like it has for the last 2 expansions and as far as design goes its brillliant.

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Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono

The only buff for Dragoon I can get behind is increasing the wheeling thrust/fang and claw, raiden thrust and any other sub 15 second timer it has to 15 seconds.

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It's kinda odd that they didn't make this change when they extended all other combos to 15 seconds, and its even odder that they didn't extend them when they fixed Forms on Monk.

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Originally Posted by KaitoAsaha

I'm also happy with where DRG is this expansion. If I could ask for a change then it would be tor them to add a refresh for Disembowel, like how Monk and Warrior have one for their buff, to one of our aoe moves, or add it as a bonus for for properly doing the combo.

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The only reason I don't think they need to do this is just that Dragoon's AOE is already pretty much the best of the melee.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

It's kinda odd that they didn't make this change when they extended all other combos to 15 seconds, and its even odder that they didn't extend them when they fixed Forms on Monk.

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I mean, it's obvious that the 15 second combo timers were made to the game at it's base, and were superceded by the timers of these buff limited gcds. As far as not fixing 'goons timers when they fixed Monks- I'd assume it's due in large part to the contempt the playerbase has for ShB Monk and the apparent lack of care put into it by the Devs. It would have taken someone- anyone - 5 seconds to hit a monk gcd, look at the form timer, and notice it was still 10 seconds. It got pushed as another example of "the devs don't play this job AT ALL!". A job with the lowest player satisfaction, with a playerbase that feel like their Job and feedback are continually ignored will of course be very verbal of even the slightest issues.

'Goon meanwhile, has been treated very well by the Devs in regards to job design and player feedback both, that it's combo timers not being extended doesn't seem like nearly as big of a deal hence why it's players are far less verbal about it.

Neither Job should have needed to be fixed after the initial patch that extended GCD combo timers, and 'goon definitely shouldn't still be sitting here with it's timers at 10 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono

I mean, it's obvious that the 15 second combo timers were made to the game at it's base, and were superceded by the timers of these buff limited gcds. As far as not fixing 'goons timers when they fixed Monks- I'd assume it's due in large part to the contempt the playerbase has for ShB Monk and the apparent lack of care put into it by the Devs. It would have taken someone- anyone - 5 seconds to hit a monk gcd, look at the form timer, and notice it was still 10 seconds. It got pushed as another example of "the devs don't play this job AT ALL!". A job with the lowest player satisfaction, with a playerbase that feel like their Job and feedback are continually ignored will of course be very verbal of even the slightest issues.

'Goon meanwhile, has been treated very well by the Devs in regards to job design and player feedback both, that it's combo timers not being extended doesn't seem like nearly as big of a deal hence why it's players are far less verbal about it.

Neither Job should have needed to be fixed after the initial patch that extended GCD combo timers, and 'goon definitely shouldn't still be sitting here with it's timers at 10 seconds.

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I agree with this, that's another thing that has always really bothered me about DRG in its current state, there is plenty of fights where you lose their bonus because of the transition not to mention that this current patch is really rough on melee all together.

I feel like like cutting down on DRG's flavor was a bad idea, i know they don't want to cause button bloat but damn i feel like the jobs just keep getting watered down and is next expansion going to to change in a way that is going to make me hate DRG? It took me awhile just to get used to the removal of impulse drive, and the rotation being shifted one GCD forward is still something mega strange.

Twice as many people play DRG but not that many people tend to complain about its problems and for having such high numbers of players playing it, it meets averages somewhere in-between all other classes which is completely insane.

I just wish i could share gear with another class :[

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Originally Posted by Renkei

It is a tiny fix, but yes Warrior MCHs, and DRG's Auto Critical just Converts the next attack into what ever your critical damage bonus wasthese abilities existed prior to direct-hit existing, the only way to truly rid it of RNG is to make those abilities Auto-Crit/DH, or Give it a flat damage bonus, But it's also more complex then that, Warrior Benefits from skill-speed but lacks a dot for some strange reason, Dragoon its a detriment to have skill-speed except at very certain integers that round with jumps animation lock.

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And what part of any of these entirely separate issues contradicts the benefits that fix converting excess chance into addition effectiveness would provide? "Skill-gap" in the form of having found a party that doesn't waste rDPS on you? Sure, Skill Speed and Maiming gear have likewise been a hot mess since ARR, but that doesn't somehow make the other hot messes any less so nor make it worthless to attempt to fix any of them.

This is like someone suggesting that we should the option to apply Salted Earth directly to target without losing the ability to queue it only to be met with "But skill-ceiling!... and here's some equally irrelevant math!"

I have a separate DRG main alt and have flexed everywhere from minimum viable SkS to rotation-changing speeds; I'm quite familiar with the issues SkS faces on Dragoon, just as with virtually all other melee. I've suggested fixes to it before, but that doesn't change the fact that the problem you just pointed out prior to extending the list can be wholly fixed by a minute adjustment without precluding any future necessary adjustments to fix the many other problems melee, stats, and Dragoon in particular may have in this game.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

This is like someone suggesting that we should the option to apply Salted Earth directly to target without losing the ability to queue it only to be met with "But skill-ceiling!... and here's some equally irrelevant math!"

I have a separate DRG main alt and have flexed everywhere from minimum viable SkS to rotation-changing speeds; I'm quite familiar with the issues SkS faces on Dragoon, just as with virtually all other melee. I've suggested fixes to it before, but that doesn't change the fact that the problem you just pointed out prior to extending the list can be wholly fixed by a minute adjustment without precluding any future necessary adjustments to fix the many other problems melee, stats, and Dragoon in particular may have in this game.

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My Interest is to post different opinions on potential options that the Dev team could explore - I find the the majority of issues around game design for DPS in this game revolves around Skill-Speed de-syncing OGCDs, but this is a problem that persists to most classes, i do agree that this is an issue that could be fixed in a short period of time, and that it's not the only issue that is plaguing this game in terms of usability, Firstly i would Convert all oGCD Abilities into Skill-Speed Scaling Abilities, Firstly Getting rid of Speed all together and replacing it with a universal "haste" which in term would fix paladins issues, rdm issues, and casting issues, this would fix all issues with GCD weaving breaking completely, though the math involved would be to proportionally scale longer cool downs properly so they do not receive double speed increases over say 30 second abilities or 60 second abilities, i doubt anything will get completely redesigned towards the end of this expansion, though i wouldn't be surprised if that was what they planned on doing considering the introduction of oGCDs that scale with Speed.

Unfortunately i am unable to fix any of the problems or issues that remain in the game, but i do acknowledge the issues other jobs are currently having as well.

Clearly the issues that would Arise from changing it into a flat damage ability is the maximum damage cap of full thrust could potentially increase by 0%-50%+ (Depending on Critical Rating, And Direct Hit Rating and the "New" bonus provided to Life Surge, Life Surge Bonus + Critical + DH VS Life Surge + DH), It would increase the damage cap for one attack and potentially make it more RNG Dependent, with a potential 500+ additional DPS done additional, or the same damage.
There are plenty of other options to explore though of course that i have mentioned, Like Dragon-Sight, Or Litany changes to flat damage bonus, or even Life Surge changing into a Direct Critical.

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Originally Posted by Renkei

Firstly i would Convert all oGCD Abilities into Skill-Speed Scaling Abilities, Firstly Getting rid of Speed all together and replacing it with a universal "haste" which in term would fix paladins issues, rdm issues, and casting issues, this would fix all issues with GCD weaving breaking completely, though the math involved would be to proportionally scale longer cool downs properly so they do not receive double speed increases over say 30 second abilities or 60 second abilities, i doubt anything will get completely redesigned towards the end of this expansion, though i wouldn't be surprised if that was what they planned on doing considering the introduction of oGCDs that scale with Speed.

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Solid changes. Sadly, they've also been suggested since ARR, to no effect. But, I'm glad to see others trying.

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Originally Posted by Renkei

Clearly the issues that would Arise from changing it into a flat damage ability is the maximum damage cap of full thrust could potentially increase by 0%-50%+ (Depending on Critical Rating, And Direct Hit Rating and the "New" bonus provided to Life Surge, Life Surge Bonus + Critical + DH VS Life Surge + DH), It would increase the damage cap for one attack and potentially make it more RNG Dependent, with a potential 500+ additional DPS done additional, or the same damage.
There are plenty of other options to explore though of course that i have mentioned, Like Dragon-Sight, Or Litany changes to flat damage bonus, or even Life Surge changing into a Direct Critical.

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Again, though, I'm just not sure why you'd bother when it's simpler to provide a general fix at this point (since 5 jobs have auto-Crits, and 2 have auto-DHits), fixing the problem that arises from +Crit and +DHit buffs, or skills which guarantee either, rather than forcing any and all raid buffs into just +%Damage (which, Dragon Sight already is, btw).

SkS can be "fixed", even if in not the most interesting way, by merging SkS and SpS and having it affect periodic, auto-attack, and ability damage equally. (The more difficult fix is to give each job their own level-specific stat contribution curve*, a la WoW, so that the choice remains distinct but can be balanced.) *Technically, WoW uses a simple scalar, not a curve, which causes it to become impossible to truly balance once Haste gives access to new rotations, not that WoW particularly cares as it typically prefers for specs to have noticeably favored and disfavored stats.

Even more easily, auto-Crit/DHit abilities can be fixed by just converting excess chance to extra effectiveness. Done.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Solid changes. Sadly, they've also been suggested since ARR, to no effect. But, I'm glad to see others trying.


Again, though, I'm just not sure why you'd bother when it's simpler to provide a general fix at this point (since 5 jobs have auto-Crits, and 2 have auto-DHits), fixing the problem that arises from +Crit and +DHit buffs, or skills which guarantee either, rather than forcing any and all raid buffs into just +%Damage (which, Dragon Sight already is, btw).

SkS can be "fixed", even if in not the most interesting way, by merging SkS and SpS and having it affect periodic, auto-attack, and ability damage equally. (The more difficult fix is to give each job their own level-specific stat contribution curve*, a la WoW, so that the choice remains distinct but can be balanced.) *Technically, WoW uses a simple scalar, not a curve, which causes it to become impossible to truly balance once Haste gives access to new rotations, not that WoW particularly cares as it typically prefers for specs to have noticeably favored and disfavored stats.

Even more easily, auto-Crit/DHit abilities can be fixed by just converting excess chance to extra effectiveness. Done.

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Yeah they have been suggested since ARR.

There is a simple general fix for the Auto-Crit/Auto-DH Issue. I am just spitballing solutions honestly.

That would have to lead to an entire reprogramming of Each ability (with Auto-Crit/DH) and an introduction of a new calculation for these skills, I am not entirely against that idea, Though Direct-hit''s percentage rating is a lot higher, but Critical passes it if you combine the damage bonus and frequency which isn't that bad of an idea.
Ultimately i would opt just to make every ability that is Auto-Crit or Auto Direct-hit Both instead of the later, since it would allow you to use existing code even if it forces a requirement (Full Thrust From Flank) as for the Auto-Direct hit i do not see any reason to force a requirement as the jobs currently with Auto Direct-hits aren't in the best spots.

I feel like Spineshatter Dive needs a buff. It's a min CD but does less damage than Jump and High Jump. It use to stun but now doesn't. I kinda feel like it shouldn't do damage and should just be a 10s gap closer. Similar to En Avant.

There's so many different solutions that could of been implemented but unfortunately the development teams are all clogged up with working on their upcoming game that we didn't receive a balance adjustment proper.