Is 'Hydaelyn' a misnomer based on a misconception?

So it's always been somewhat confusing that the star we occupy in the game shares a name with the crystalline entity who bosses us about from time to time, but I always assumed that this was because, at the very least, it was Hydaelyn who created the star. But as we all now know, our star precedes both Hydaelyn and Zodiark. All Hydaelyn did was sunder the star when it got caught in the crossfire between her and Zodiark, so does it really make sense to call said star Hydaelyn at all?

It does, because the original 'star' (the original name of which has not been revealed so far) no longer exists. The Terminus effectively destroyed it, and Zodiark's summoning stopped the Terminus at the last moment and restored the devestated world with new life, but it wasn't really the same world anymore by the Ascians' own admission (it's metaphysical framework had been after all specifically rewritten by Zodiark intentionally, and "countless new tiny lives had begun to spring up on the world"), and then it was sundered into the 'Source' and the Fourteen Shards when Hydaelyn was summoned as a counterweight to Zodiark's power in reply to the surviving members of the Convocation attempting to sacrifice the survivors of their race and the new life that had appeared on the planet to Zodiark to completely restore the world to how it once was - Hydaelyn throwing a spanner in that plan accordingly.

The Ascians have not once mentioned what the world's original name was pre-Terminus (it was simply referred to as 'the Star'), and with Zodiark banished to the moon (which he continues to be associated with as a 'darkness' god), it is still correct to call the planet Hydaelyn, simply for lack of a better alternative (it should also be worth mentioning that FFXIV's setting metawise is more often than not called Eorzea as a world rather than just a geographical region it actually is, but this does not really count).

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

It does, because the original 'star' (the original name of which has not been revealed so far) no longer exists. The Terminus effectively destroyed it, and Zodiark's summoning stopped the Terminus at the last moment and restored the devestated world with new life, but it wasn't really the same world anymore by the Ascians' own admission (it's metaphysical framework had been after all specifically rewritten by Zodiark intentionally, and "countless new tiny lives had begun to spring up on the world"), and then it was sundered into the 'Source' and the Fourteen Shards when Hydaelyn was summoned as a counterweight to Zodiark's power in reply to the surviving members of the Convocation attempting to sacrifice the survivors of their race and the new life that had appeared on the planet to Zodiark to completely restore the world to how it once was - Hydaelyn throwing a spanner in that plan accordingly.

The Ascians have not once mentioned what the world's original name was pre-Terminus (it was simply referred to as 'the Star'), and with Zodiark banished to the moon (which he continues to be associated with as a 'darkness' god), it is still correct to call the planet Hydaelyn, simply for lack of a better alternative (it should also be worth mentioning that FFXIV's setting metawise is more often than not called Eorzea as a world rather than just a geographical region it actually is, but this does not really count).

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Very well explained. Thanks for that.

On the subject of Zodiark's current dwelling place, it only just dawned on me yesterday that the reason that we keep seeing the Ascians hanging out on the moon is because it is this body with which Zodiark is associated.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

It does, because the original 'star' (the original name of which has not been revealed so far) no longer exists. The Terminus effectively destroyed it, and Zodiark's summoning stopped the Terminus at the last moment and restored the devestated world with new life, but it wasn't really the same world anymore by the Ascians' own admission (it's metaphysical framework had been after all specifically rewritten by Zodiark intentionally, and "countless new tiny lives had begun to spring up on the world"), and then it was sundered into the 'Source' and the Fourteen Shards when Hydaelyn was summoned as a counterweight to Zodiark's power in reply to the surviving members of the Convocation attempting to sacrifice the survivors of their race and the new life that had appeared on the planet to Zodiark to completely restore the world to how it once was - Hydaelyn throwing a spanner in that plan accordingly.

The Ascians have not once mentioned what the world's original name was pre-Terminus (it was simply referred to as 'the Star'), and with Zodiark banished to the moon (which he continues to be associated with as a 'darkness' god), it is still correct to call the planet Hydaelyn, simply for lack of a better alternative (it should also be worth mentioning that FFXIV's setting metawise is more often than not called Eorzea as a world rather than just a geographical region it actually is, but this does not really count).

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Pretty sure this isn't altogether accurate. Yes there was devastation on a huge scale on the original star, but it certainly didn't cease to exist. We visit the actual ruins of an Amaurotine city on the First; if the Terminus event destroyed an entire star they wouldn't be there. Yes the star was split into fourteen as were the souls that lived upon it, and at some point on the Source we started to call the star Hydaelyn after its 'creator'. Or perhaps it was always called Hydaelyn and the summoners named their primal after the star (less likely since Zodiark is the one who is actually the manifestation of the will of the star so perhaps it was called Zodiark before)

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

It does, because the original 'star' (the original name of which has not been revealed so far) no longer exists. The Terminus effectively destroyed it, and Zodiark's summoning stopped the Terminus at the last moment and restored the devestated world with new life, but it wasn't really the same world anymore by the Ascians' own admission (it's metaphysical framework had been after all specifically rewritten by Zodiark intentionally, and "countless new tiny lives had begun to spring up on the world"), and then it was sundered into the 'Source' and the Fourteen Shards when Hydaelyn was summoned as a counterweight to Zodiark's power in reply to the surviving members of the Convocation attempting to sacrifice the survivors of their race and the new life that had appeared on the planet to Zodiark to completely restore the world to how it once was - Hydaelyn throwing a spanner in that plan accordingly.

The Ascians have not once mentioned what the world's original name was pre-Terminus (it was simply referred to as 'the Star'), and with Zodiark banished to the moon (which he continues to be associated with as a 'darkness' god), it is still correct to call the planet Hydaelyn, simply for lack of a better alternative (it should also be worth mentioning that FFXIV's setting metawise is more often than not called Eorzea as a world rather than just a geographical region it actually is, but this does not really count).

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I also somewhat disagree with this assertion. The Terminus event that scorched the planet, and the rebuilding of it can be argued as a rebirth of sorts or reformation, but astronomically speaking its still the same planet.

The sundering was... well the specifics are foggy, but it seems more like a dimensional splitting than an actual splitting of the planet, thus we'd have multiple versions of the same planet in parallel dimensions.

If anything, I'm more puzzled why its Hydaelyn and not Zodiark... seeing as Zodiark was actually designed as the will of the planet, while Hydaelyn is just an opposing force.

Possibly an example of the "victor writes the history" type of things.

The average person living on the planet doesn’t know about a great big crystal entity living underneath or the secrets of Ascians and Zodiark. It’s likely that a past WoL heard Hydaelyn talk to them and just understood her as connected to the Star and somehow the name caught on among normal people.

The writing team has done a good job establishing the fact that a lot of the lore is given to us naturally through characters living in the world rather than exposition saying “this is that and this is that thing”. Considering the characters in the world call the Star Hydaelyn, then there’s probably not a super deep reason for it.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

Pretty sure this isn't altogether accurate. Yes there was devastation on a huge scale on the original star, but it certainly didn't cease to exist. We visit the actual ruins of an Amaurotine city on the First; if the Terminus event destroyed an entire star they wouldn't be there. Yes the star was split into fourteen as were the souls that lived upon it, and at some point on the Source we started to call the star Hydaelyn after its 'creator'. Or perhaps it was always called Hydaelyn and the summoners named their primal after the star (less likely since Zodiark is the one who is actually the manifestation of the will of the star so perhaps it was called Zodiark before)

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What Amaurotine city are you referencing, because we visit no such thing on the first. The only thing we visit is an illusion. As for the name Hydaelyn. I think it's a simple case of history is written by the Victor. Hydaelyn "won" so the star is called Hydaelyn.

As for the star's original name, let's either call it Genesis or Termina. Either we call it the beginning or the end, lol.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

What Amaurotine city are you referencing, because we visit no such thing on the first. The only thing we visit is an illusion. As for the name Hydaelyn. I think it's a simple case of history is written by the Victor. Hydaelyn "won" so the star is called Hydaelyn.

As for the star's original name, let's either call it Genesis or Termina. Either we call it the beginning or the end, lol.

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Parts of the city may have been illusion, but the ruins in the surrounding area are of Amaurotian origins, as are the ruins the Ondo live in.

It is likely Emet used the ruins of an actual Amaurotian city as the base of his illusion. Not sure if it was ever outright stated if it IS the ruined city of Amaurot itself though, but its probable.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

Parts of the city may have been illusion, but the ruins in the surrounding area are of Amaurotian origins, as are the ruins the Ondo live in.

It is likely Emet used the ruins of an actual Amaurotian city as the base of his illusion. Not sure if it was ever outright stated if it IS the ruined city of Amaurot itself though, but its probable.

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It is the actual city. Thancred even mentions being unable to get into the big building Emet was hiding in because what we see is a veneer of an illusion over the ruins and the window he was trying to get into was sealed shut by years of junk. When we get to the Tempest, the Ondo even say that the ruins have always been there, but it is just now that they’ve been turned on.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

It is the actual city. Thancred even mentions being unable to get into the big building Emet was hiding in because what we see is a veneer of an illusion over the ruins and the window he was trying to get into was sealed shut by years of junk. When we get to the Tempest, the Ondo even say that the ruins have always been there, but it is just now that they’ve been turned on.

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WARNING

Spoilers

Indeed, the city even "recognises the WoL"when you first get there. If the city was a complete illusion born of the mind of Emet Selch then there would be no reason why he would imagine his creations to recognise the player having Ascian heritage because he was unaware of it until his end.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

Parts of the city may have been illusion, but the ruins in the surrounding area are of Amaurotian origins, as are the ruins the Ondo live in.

It is likely Emet used the ruins of an actual Amaurotian city as the base of his illusion. Not sure if it was ever outright stated if it IS the ruined city of Amaurot itself though, but its probable.

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Ah those ruins, you are half right.

The ruins you encounter in the end game are not Amaurotine in origin, at least not how you think. In truth, they were created by someone who had fleeting memories of the original star. The same thing exists in the Ronkan Ruins and was elaborated upon by the developers. We dont actually encounter anything from the original star, just the facsimile created by Emet-Selch. The ruins are of First Origins.

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Originally Posted by Izar_Chillen

Indeed, the city even "recognises the WoL" when you first get there. If the city was a complete illusion born of the mind of Emet Selch then there would be no reason why he would imagine his creations to recognise the player having Ascian heritage because he was unaware of it until his end.

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That's not exactly what happens. Emet-Selch invited us, so why wouldn't it recognize our unique signature. Plus you might be confusing what the Ascian heritage means. In your context you're talking about us being a member of the council, but truthfully, all of the races have "Ascian heritage" as we were all unified beings at one point. This much Emet-Selch did know. The only difference is any being from the source is more "complete"

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Ah those ruins, you are half right.

The ruins you encounter in the end game are not Amaurotine in origin, at least not how you think. In truth, they were created by someone who had fleeting memories of the original star. The same thing exists in the Ronkan Ruins and was elaborated upon by the developers. We dont actually encounter anything from the original star, just the facsimile created by Emet-Selch. The ruins are of First Origins.

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Citation needed.

The ruins are clearly stated to be built by "Ancients" with unkown and non-reproducible means. The technology used is stated to be very high above anything the Ondo or the Scions could imagine, or even put a dent in. Its pretty clear that the ruins are not of Ronkan origin, who were to our knowledge the most advanced faction of the First (and remember they did not have any Calamities, so they have better recollection of their history and ruins).

It is also stated by the Ondo, that they associate the ruins they use and the ruins that "lit up" by the return of the ancients.

The murals in the Ronkan ruins are of a different matter. They were clearly constructed by the Ronkans or their predecessors post Sundering, to record the fleeting memories of the pre Sundered world... and it was stated as such by non other than Emet too.

And the design of the buildings in said mural outright matches the ruins in The Tempest, and it was that mural that Emet actually confirmed really was of Amaurot and the Terminus (it was the first time we actually heard the name mentioned). And the WoL actually matches a distinctive structure in that mural at the end of the game with one of the ruins in The Tempest, that strange vaguely open pyramidal structure called 'The Walls of the Forgotten' on the map.

Having said that, it's still unclear if Emet's reconstruction of Amaurot was built 'from the ground up' with his Creation magic or was simply a glamour laid over the empty ruins like a tablecloth, but what is clear is that the ruins in The Tempest are the remains of Amaurot (a big clue is the distinctive 'zigzag brickwork-in-concrete' pattern on the ruins... is identical to the buildings in the reconstruction... albiet without 12000 years worth of coral and rock formations on them. ;)).

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

Citation needed.

The ruins are clearly stated to be built by "Ancients" with unkown and non-reproducible means. The technology used is stated to be very high above anything the Ondo or the Scions could imagine, or even put a dent in. Its pretty clear that the ruins are not of Ronkan origin, who were to our knowledge the most advanced faction of the First (and remember they did not have any Calamities, so they have better recollection of their history and ruins).

It is also stated by the Ondo, that they associate the ruins they use and the ruins that "lit up" by the return of the ancients.

The murals in the Ronkan ruins are of a different matter. They were clearly constructed by the Ronkans or their predecessors post Sundering, to record the fleeting memories of the pre Sundered world... and it was stated as such by non other than Emet too.

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I'd have to look for the Q&A where they said it. But I'll admit I could be mixing up info. What I am talking about were the murals as you indicated, I wasn't trying to indicate the ruins were of Ronkan origin either.

I did see something that indicated the ruins are genuine because of a lack of calamities, as you indicated, but that's not a prime source for information. I could be relating actual info the dev's have said and stretching it to this concept. So unless we have a prime source for either, the confirmation is up in the air.

My main reason behind thinking the ruins aren't genuine is because the timing doesn't add up. Amaurot was destroyed prior to summoning Zodiark. Between his summoning, the planets "restoration", Hydaelyn's summoning, and their battles, a significant amount of time should have passed. Now while ruins don't just "vanish", for them to remain after a reconstruction effort is put in place seems odd. But that reasoning is only speculation, the same as everyone else's. So we'll just have to wait for the dev's to say something.

That being said, having something "built by the ancients" doesn't necessarily mean the Ascians. Our own world history shows things from our past that were created by unknown and non-reproducible means.

as for the initial topic: We indeed don't know what the ancients called the planet before the terminus (it's entirely possible though that they did literally just call it the star, after all Earth isn't that imaginative of a name either). Zodiark was created as "the will of the star" itself, so he and the planet became synonymous. And later our mommy crystal took over that role after banishing Zodiark.
So yes, Hydaelin is the planet.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

What Amaurotine city are you referencing, because we visit no such thing on the first. The only thing we visit is an illusion. As for the name Hydaelyn. I think it's a simple case of history is written by the Victor. Hydaelyn "won" so the star is called Hydaelyn.

As for the star's original name, let's either call it Genesis or Termina. Either we call it the beginning or the end, lol.

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I am referencing the ruins in the Tempest which are clearly the ruins of Amaurot as the WoL discusses with Y'shtola ...

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I am referencing the ruins in the Tempest which are clearly the ruins of Amaurot as the WoL discusses with Y'shtola ...

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Yes, I see that now.

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Originally Posted by swiss_Momo

as for the initial topic: We indeed don't know what the ancients called the planet before the terminus (it's entirely possible though that they did literally just call it the star, after all Earth isn't that imaginative of a name either). Zodiark was created as "the will of the star" itself, so he and the planet became synonymous. And later our mommy crystal took over that role after banishing Zodiark.
So yes, Hydaelin is the planet.

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Not to me she isn't! :P Hydaelyn seems like a usurper—as Eloah said, it most resembles a case of the victor writing the rules—of this synonymy, if anything. Though I also have my doubts about Zodiark embodying "the will of the star." I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that the star has no will, and that Zodiark embodied nothing more than the will of a people desperate to survive at any cost. They are, after all, both Primals, and I'm always apt to believe that any positive PR for either one of them is born of tempering.

The Ancients or, more specifically, the Amauoritines, remind me a lot of the Krell from Forbidden Planet, or the Atlanteans: a race so physically adept that they are able to give form to powerful entities/forces that prove to be their undoing. Sulky Selch makes it sound like the horrors of the Terminus event just befell his blameless people for reasons unknown, but I suspect that what we have here is a very literal imagining of the sleep of reason giving birth to monsters. So, from my vantage point, Zodiark and Hydaelyn are just monsters called forth to deal with other monsters, and the star is just a big rock that doesn't have much of anything to do with either of them.

I'm also very curious as to what the original planet was called before Zodiark and Hydaelyn entered the equation. I think it'd be very poetic for the truth surrounding Zodiark and Hydaelyn to become common knowledge and for the reigns of history to truly be placed into the hands of man. There's something rather egotistical about the Source being named 'Hydaelyn' in light of all her deception surrounding her true nature. She had many convinced that she was a benevolent deity and yet as it turns out she is simply another Primal. A very powerful one, certainly, but a Primal all the same.

I still think Emet calling Zodiark and Hydaelyn primals was a deliberate mislead by him. Sure, creation magic and primal summoning follow the same principle on paper, but in practice it's like comparing a masterfully crafted piece of artisanship with some cheap bootleg that only barely resembles the original and will set itself on fire if looked at the wrong way. Also if mommy and daddy crystal were primals, then logically ALL of the countless plants and animals originating from creation magic would have to be primals as well, no?
(As for the ascians getting tempered, this might've simply been an unintended side effect of Zodiark stopping the terminus. After all, a big part was the chain reaction of the mass hysteria amongst the ancients creating more monsters, so Zodiark might've simply decided that ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL via tempering as a way to stop that)

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Originally Posted by swiss_Momo

I still think Emet calling Zodiark and Hydaelyn primals was a deliberate mislead by him. Sure, creation magic and primal summoning follow the same principle on paper, but in practice it's like comparing a masterfully crafted piece of artisanship with some cheap bootleg that only barely resembles the original and will set itself on fire if looked at the wrong way. Also if mommy and daddy crystal were primals, then logically ALL of the countless plants and animals originating from creation magic would have to be primals as well, no?
(As for the ascians getting tempered, this might've simply been an unintended side effect of Zodiark stopping the terminus. After all, a big part was the chain reaction of the mass hysteria amongst the ancients creating more monsters, so Zodiark might've simply decided that ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL via tempering as a way to stop that)

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I think the statement was misleading, but not necessarily deliberately. I think that its just as you said: they are much better crafted primals. So much better in fact, that many rules we apply to run-of-the-mill primals don't apply to them. He was just using words that we can understand easily.

It does bring up some interesting questions about creation magic and its limits though. But thats for another thread.

I have my doubts that Emet-Selch is lying about the nature of Zodiark and Hydaelyn. Unlike the other Ascians, he was pretty upfront about delivering uncomfortable truths. We saw it happening as much with his interactions with Varis as we did with his interactions with the Warrior of Light and Scions. He's also the reason why Y'shtola isn't dead, further cementing that his time with the protagonists was genuine. He's also tied to 'truth' as a general concept based on his naming conventions and his behaviour in-game.

as much as i enjoyed Emet i wouldn't say i fully trust everything he said afterall he was tempered by zodiark.

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Originally Posted by Kusanagi7

as much as i enjoyed Emet i wouldn't say i fully trust everything he said afterall he was tempered by zodiark.

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Could someone point me to the place in the MSQ where it's made clear the the WoL, Minfilia, Krile etc haven't been tempered by Hydaelyn?

If you're looking for a hard no about the possible of her having tempered the WoL or associates, we don't have that.

What we do have is logical inference. We have no known instances of anyone being tempered by Hydaelyn herself. Some tempered are able to display a degree of self control most seem to have no problem admitting to being tempered. See in particular Emet-Selch and the Anata from Ala Migho council quests.

We do know that the WoL from the first shard and WoL from the thirteen shard are able to act against what would be considered Hydaelyn's goals and motives while cooperating with Ascians. While as this is quite circumstantial, it is a decent amount of evidence that discredits the "Hydealyn Tempering" theory.

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Originally Posted by Deusteele

If you're looking for a hard no about the possible of her having tempered the WoL or associates, we don't have that.

We do know that the WoL from the first shard and WoL from the thirteen shard are able to act against what would be considered Hydaelyn's goals and motives while cooperating with Ascians. While as this is quite circumstantial, it is a decent amount of evidence that discredits the "Hydealyn Tempering" theory.

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In much the same way as Urianger co-operates with the Ascians during the WoDs arc? After all Unulkhai actually allies himself with us, doesn't he? I mean, when does he ally himself with the Ascians? Elidibus 'rescues' him but we never actually find out the motive for that, and Unulkhai more or less becomes a Scion after the Warring Triad. Or are you maybe thinking he's a double (triple?) agent?

The WoLs from the First were dead, it was their souls that plotted with the Ascians. Does tempering persist after death? When all the people tempered by Ifrit are reborn, are they still his willing slaves?

I mean, there is as much evidence to logically infer that Emet-Selch lied all along and neither Zodiark nor Hydaelyn are primals. Actually there's more evidence to infer that than to infer that Hydaelyn is a primal who doesn't temper her followers

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I mean, when does he ally himself with the Ascians? Elidibus 'rescues' him but we never actually find out the motive for that, and Unulkhai more or less becomes a Scion after the Warring Triad. Or are you maybe thinking he's a double (triple?) agent?

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UNUKALHAI:

And as I lay dying, beaten and broken in my failed last stand, 'twas a white-robed Ascian who found my tormented spirit and bore me away to the rift betwixt worlds. Elidibus has been my master ever since.

And as I lay dying, beaten and broken in my failed last stand, 'twas my present master who found my tormented spirit and bore me away to the rift betwixt worlds. 'Twas he who first introduced me to Urianger.

At my mentor's feet did I learn of the nature of reality: of the existence of mirrored worlds and the eternal struggle between Dark and Light.

Sudden and overwhelming superiority for either side will shatter the balance, and the world in question will be returned to the void by a calamity beyond imagining.

As the self-appointed custodian of this balance, my master warned me that the Source─the first of all worlds─slips perilously close to oblivion.

Quest The Last Pillar to Fall... out of the veritable mouths of a babe.
Copied from Garlond Tools. Yes that kid may be fighting with us but it is for the sake of balance he is allied with the Ascians and is subservient to Elidibus. If he decides to defy him it has not been done yet.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

I think the statement was misleading, but not necessarily deliberately. I think that its just as you said: they are much better crafted primals. So much better in fact, that many rules we apply to run-of-the-mill primals don't apply to them. He was just using words that we can understand easily.

It does bring up some interesting questions about creation magic and its limits though. But thats for another thread.

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Regardless of the degree of sophistication involved in their construction, the fact remains that they are not ontologically necessary, non-contingent beings upon which all non-contingent phenomena depends. They are themselves part of the created order. In fact, until contrary evidence emerges, I would hypothesise that these beings are not even capable of the sort of free exercise of creation that the Amaurotine engaged in. They may be extremely powerful, but in every way that matters, they're nought but false gods.

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Originally Posted by Deusteele

If you're looking for a hard no about the possible of her having tempered the WoL or associates, we don't have that.

What we do have is logical inference. We have no known instances of anyone being tempered by Hydaelyn herself. Some tempered are able to display a degree of self control most seem to have no problem admitting to being tempered. See in particular Emet-Selch and the Anata from Ala Migho council quests.

We do know that the WoL from the first shard and WoL from the thirteen shard are able to act against what would be considered Hydaelyn's goals and motives while cooperating with Ascians. While as this is quite circumstantial, it is a decent amount of evidence that discredits the "Hydealyn Tempering" theory.

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I think it most likely that you're correct, but I wouldn't be totally caught off-guard if it turned out that Hydaelyn engages in tempering. After all, we don't know what the subjective experience of being tempered is like. Perhaps when Hydaelyn was speaking to us, this was itself a symptom of tempering. As we know, though, she has grown weaker over the course of the game and no longer speaks to us, which may be a sign that her hold over us, and other WoLs has diminished, and they are able to act in ways contrary to her intent.

On the other hand, tempering has been shown to persist even when a Primal has been vanquished, so this theory probably doesn't hold water.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

Could someone point me to the place in the MSQ where it's made clear the the WoL, Minfilia, Krile etc haven't been tempered by Hydaelyn?

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One of the Warriors of Light from Ivalice straight up betrayed Hydaelyn.

Also Zenos and Fordola have artificial versions of the echo and are immune to tempering as well so you can’t say “WoL can’t be tempered bc they’re already tempered by Hydaelyn”.

I really don’t understand at all why people seem to think Hydaelyn is subversive and is using us and has us tempered. Sure, I don’t think Emet was lying about her being a primal and he has no reason to, but her whole schtick is free will. What is the point of enslaving our minds to do the right thing and save everyone? She does other things that aren’t like normal primal too, such as lack of religion/worshipers. Per Koji himself, Other than the Path of Twelve, the city leaders, and a few others, most of the world doesn’t know anything about the mothercrystal and they don’t even know the planet is called Hydaelyn.

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Originally Posted by purgatori

Regardless of the degree of sophistication involved in their construction, the fact remains that they are not ontologically necessary, non-contingent beings upon which all non-contingent phenomena depends. They are themselves part of the created order. In fact, until contrary evidence emerges, I would hypothesise that these beings are not even capable of the sort of free exercise of creation that the Amaurotine engaged in. They may be extremely powerful, but in every way that matters, they're nought but false gods.



I think it most likely that you're correct, but I wouldn't be totally caught off-guard if it turned out that Hydaelyn engages in tempering. After all, we don't know what the subjective experience of being tempered is like. Perhaps when Hydaelyn was speaking to us, this was itself a symptom of tempering. As we know, though, she has grown weaker over the course of the game and no longer speaks to us, which may be a sign that her hold over us, and other WoLs has diminished, and they are able to act in ways contrary to her intent.

On the other hand, tempering has been shown to persist even when a Primal has been vanquished, so this theory probably doesn't hold water.

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Actually, I would argue that due to the planet and everything living on it being split in fourteen when he was sundered, Zodiark is closer to a true god than Hydaelyn. Being an artificial god doesn't mean he's not a genuine one.

On the subject of tempering, Ifrit's inability to temper us and attributing it to us already having such a "blessing" strongly suggests that the Blessing of Light is a form of tempering. That said, if we operate under the (relatively fair) assumption that all of Hydaelyn's chosen have such a blessing, it doesn't seem to actually do anything other than provide a power boost when fighting enemies of the world (primals, Ascians, etc). The Echo is supposedly what vaccinates us against the influence of other primals, and others with the (partial) Blessing are even capable of rebelling against Hydaelyn. The slavish devotion present in the tempered followers of some other primals is completely absent.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

One of the Warriors of Light from Ivalice straight up betrayed Hydaelyn.

Also Zenos and Fordola have artificial versions of the echo and are immune to tempering as well so you can’t say “WoL can’t be tempered bc they’re already tempered by Hydaelyn”.

I really don’t understand at all why people seem to think Hydaelyn is subversive and is using us and has us tempered. Sure, I don’t think Emet was lying about her being a primal and he has no reason to, but her whole schtick is free will. What is the point of enslaving our minds to do the right thing and save everyone? She does other things that aren’t like normal primal too, such as lack of religion/worshipers. Per Koji himself, Other than the Path of Twelve, the city leaders, and a few others, most of the world doesn’t know anything about the mothercrystal and they don’t even know the planet is called Hydaelyn.

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We infer from the evidence we have that it is the Echo that prevents people from being tempered by Primals. But Fordola and Zenos have a manufactured Echo. However the evidence shows that this prevents Fordola from being tempered too. Nothing about any of those three statements demonstrates that the WoL hasn't been tempered so I'm confused how you are inferring that.

I'm not sure where the concept that Hydaelyn represents free will comes from. Hydaelyn represents a last ditch, desperate attempt by the 14th and (possibly) others to stop the rest of their people from sacrificing the new life Zodiark created. Her existence is predicated on opposing Zodiark and his followers. That's it. She certainly didn't offer Minfilia a choice when she had Minfilia run back into range of Y'shtola's Flow spell. It may be that Minfilia would have agreed, but she was never offered the option.

I have no idea whether the WoL has been tempered or not, I am just genuinely confused by the ardor with which people embrace the idea they haven't. Just as they embrace the idea that Zodiark is bad, Hydaelyn good. Personally I am waiting until I have something definitive to base my conclusions on.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

We infer from the evidence we have that it is the Echo that prevents people from being tempered by Primals. But Fordola and Zenos have a manufactured Echo. However the evidence shows that this prevents Fordola from being tempered too. Nothing about any of those three statements demonstrates that the WoL hasn't been tempered so I'm confused how you are inferring that.

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Because the idea that the echo is us being tempered and that's why we can't be tempered by others comes up in the lore forum at least once a year.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I'm not sure where the concept hat Hydaelyn represents free will comes from.

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The song Answers, which the writers have said is canonically sung by Hydaelyn. Plus inferring from everything that we've seen in game. She's a great and powerful primal, yet lets life do its own thing without worshiping her or knowing she exists and only gets involved when an outside force threatens all life. She just wants us to live. And she doesn't want to guide us either, that's the role the previous generation of life has for the next. Warriors of Light from the past have had free will too. Per the Ivalice quests and the lorebook, the Zodiac Braves were WoLs like us and had the blessing of Hydaelyn, yet their leader Ajora went and summoned Ultima, who is trying to corrupt Hydaelyn. Doesn't sound to me like something a tempered person without free will would do.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I have no idea whether the WoL has been tempered or not, I am just genuinely confused by the ardor with which people embrace the idea they haven't. Just as they embrace the idea that Zodiark is bad, Hydaelyn good. Personally I am waiting until I have something definitive to base my conclusions on.

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I'm confused why people feel like they need to mistrust everything we know in the game. We've spent the better part of a decade fighting Ascians who have been killing millions across the eons so that they can eventually destroy all 13 extra shards of reality with people living on them just so they can summon their god who will rule in darkness. Yet people think whether Zodiark is bad and Hydaelyn is good is ambiguous? What is there to doubt that Hydaelyn is acting in our best interest and not that of her own?

And I'm pretty sure Koji came out once to say that we're not tempered, but I can't remember when or if that happened.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

I think the statement was misleading, but not necessarily deliberately. I think that its just as you said: they are much better crafted primals. So much better in fact, that many rules we apply to run-of-the-mill primals don't apply to them. He was just using words that we can understand easily.

It does bring up some interesting questions about creation magic and its limits though. But thats for another thread.

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I think the answer or the "alleged answer" lies in his choice of terminology. He refers to Zodiark and Hydaelyn as Primals, but he's a "Garlean" why wouldn't he use the term Eikon? We, as the player, know there is a difference, but regardless, both rely on a belief. A belief or a myth is all it takes to create a Primal/Eikon. The fact that there are monuments and images of him in other locations, that seem to "predate" the original stars destruction, hints that he existed well before his summoning, and that over time his legacy became what it is known as today.

It's both similar and different from two of the Primals we know of in creation, Garuda and Enkidu. Both existed, but overtime Garuda's "existence" was turned into what it is now, whereas Enkidu, an actual individual, was summoned from deep desire, with no "prior" myth behind them. The later of which works in supporting Hydaelyn's sudden existance. Though that would still take into account her actually "existing" in another form prior to summoning.

But this is all just speculation. Regardless, I don't think Emet-Selch lied about anything for two main reasons. One, though it's not said in game, he's the "Angel of Truth" in the Ivalice saga. I mean think about it, they could of used any other Scion of Light, but choose him; it's not like we knew his name prior to 5.0. And two, it was a big part of the reveal for 5.0. I doubt the devs would drop that on us if it was a lie. I mean, they could of outright told us what a Primal was in 2.X but let it linger, with some added mystery, until 3.0. And even then, there is still some air of mystery attached, even though the formula is kinda well known now.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

On the subject of tempering, Ifrit's inability to temper us and attributing it to us already having such a "blessing" strongly suggests that the Blessing of Light is a form of tempering. That said, if we operate under the (relatively fair) assumption that all of Hydaelyn's chosen have such a blessing, it doesn't seem to actually do anything other than provide a power boost when fighting enemies of the world (primals, Ascians, etc). The Echo is supposedly what vaccinates us against the influence of other primals, and others with the (partial) Blessing are even capable of rebelling against Hydaelyn. The slavish devotion present in the tempered followers of some other primals is completely absent.

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I think there are two ways we could view Hydaelyn's blessing, both of which are analogous to the Tempering by other Primals.

One way of looking at it is like a vaccine. When you get a vaccine, you get a mild case of the "disease" so that your body can build the antibodies needed to fight it off, preventing you from fully getting the disease. In that case the blessing is like tempering-lite, it allows our body to resist tempering but still has full control; and not be held up in bed for a week or life, lol?

The other way of looking at it might be a bit controversial, but think about tempering like an addiction. Regardless of anything else, everyone is addicted to something, but how bad that something is for you or how bad it is perceived by others varies, depending on the subject matter, and the other individuals' knowledge of it. All addictions change your brain chemistry, but to what degree varies. Coffee is an addiction most people have, can't start the day without it, need a pick me up, something; but coffee isnt viewed as "bad". But try replacing that with an alcoholic beverage and most people sing a different tune, despite the fact that both can be lethal.

This also could help explain to others why individuals who are already tempered by one Primal view the tempering of another as "wrong". Most people who don't understand an addiction view it as wrong. There are the common "bad ones" drugs, alcohol, stealing, but some mundane ones can be just as bad if someone doesn't understand them from their perspective; sports, video games, food, etc.

I don't think it's wrong to say we are tempered. Some might think so, but only because we have been conditioned to view tempering as a bad thing, instead of something potentially helpful. Besides free will is subjective. Just like in the real world what is viewed as "free will" varies depending on the subject, and as we know most things defy logic on a daily basis.

Zenos describes tempering as some sort of "battle of willpower" at one point. A primal has a stronger willpower than a normal person, and is thus capable of controlling/tempering them. He also describes the echo as sort of a buff to your willpower, which actually fits in with the Brilliant Conviction buff we get during solo duties. (this buff is basically called Will of Light - your strong will as warrior of lights lets you surpass your own boundaries in the 3 other language versions). So the echo buffs your willpower above that of a primal, which is why they can't temper us. Now, given the nature of his creation, Zodiark ended up with a level of willpower beyond that of an Ancient, which is why the Ascians got tempered by him. (see my previous post on how this might've simply been an unforeseen side effect)

so tempering is simply a powerlevel numbers game

I was unaware that we'd been told Answers is definitely Hydaelyn speaking. Could you direct me to where that was said by the writers please?

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I was unaware that we'd been told Answers is definitely Hydaelyn speaking. Could you direct me to where that was said by the writers please?

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PAX '15 /10char

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

PAX '15 /10char

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Interesting. So Koji said that Susan Calloway's sections are Hydaelyn's voice telling the races why they must suffer, right? I'm not sure how anyone is supposed to conclude that Hydaelyn is a benevolent goddess based on free will from that. Sounds more like some of the worst excesses of the Catholic Church if I'm honest.

It's a great song - one of my favourites since 1.0 - but I've never seen it as a hopeful, uplifting song. And I have been vaguely suspicious of Hydaelyn since the fight against Ultimate Weapon in the Praetorium. She didn't come across to me as a loving Mother Goddess, more of an obsessed, rather broken avatar who only cares about one thing. There hasn't been anything in the story so far to persuade me otherwise. If it turns out she IS a benevolent Mother Goddess, great, but the writing of the story better be convincing. At this moment everything is pointing in a different direction for me.

I would also like to mention the passionate debates before Shadowbringers when the people who were adamant that Hydaelyn couldn't be a primal were very much left with egg on their faces. Don't state things as absolutes until you absolutely know they're absolutes. Speculate by all means. Which is what I'm about to do.

Ramuh's words to us before we fight him have always troubled me. I'm paraphrasing but he says that Light and Dark weren't separated until men interfered. I think this may mean that the Summoning of Zodiark caused the split, and the reason it caused the split is somehow to do with the Fourteenth refusing to take part and leaving. If the full Convocation had been involved, they would have summoned the true Will of the Star, an entity where Light and Dark were in balance. And it's going to be on us to put this right.

This is all speculation but, based on the information I have right now, I feel like it's an elegant solution. Both Zodiark and Hydaelyn are 'wrong things' with agendas that are not ultimately beneficial to the star, and we somehow have to merge them or send them back where they came from. Or both

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Originally Posted by Elladie

Interesting. So Koji said that Susan Calloway's sections are Hydaelyn's voice telling the races why they must suffer, right? I'm not sure how anyone is supposed to conclude that Hydaelyn is a benevolent goddess based on free will from that. Sounds more like some of the worst excesses of the Catholic Church if I'm honest.

It's a great song - one of my favourites since 1.0 - but I've never seen it as a hopeful, uplifting song. And I have been vaguely suspicious of Hydaelyn since the fight against Ultimate Weapon in the Praetorium. She didn't come across to me as a loving Mother Goddess, more of an obsessed, rather broken avatar who only cares about one thing. There hasn't been anything in the story so far to persuade me otherwise. If it turns out she IS a benevolent Mother Goddess, great, but the writing of the story better be convincing. At this moment everything is pointing in a different direction for me.

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How so? Part of life as a parent is the day your children leave home. You cannot shield them from the cruelty of the world forever; to do so is nothing more than coddling them.

I must point this out (again): Hydaelyn does not exist to dictate humanity's future, only to ensure that humanity has a future (that does not involve being Zodiark's food). If she were trying to dictate humanity's future the case for her deposition would be much stronger, but overall she is content to sit back and let humanity decide its own future unless Zodiark's agents are interfering. (So the "reins of history in the hands of man" shtick people love to parrot for this argument makes little sense.)

Death and suffering are sad and unavoidable, but they are what give life meaning. To believe otherwise is to believe that nothing matters at all, and as far as I am concerned, nihilism is an indulgence that cannot be afforded if you wish to live a life of conscience. (Zenos' nihilism is arguably what makes him one of the few objectively evil characters in the game.)

But please, elaborate on your viewpoint if you would.

Hydaelyn isn't allowing humanity to operate independently, though. She actively allows those she has empowered to head off into the world and use their enhanced abilities to overthrow whoever they so please. In some cases it is justified in the name of putting down world ending threats. In other cases, however, it stifles the natural course of humanity's history - especially when the Warrior of Light starts to slay people over political differences.

To allow the equivalent of an empowered soldier to dictate who rises to the top of society is not a case of allowing humanity to dictate its own fate. Especially when we know that they are not immune to bias.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Actually, I would argue that due to the planet and everything living on it being split in fourteen when he was sundered, Zodiark is closer to a true god than Hydaelyn. Being an artificial god doesn't mean he's not a genuine one.

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Hmm, no, I think for the term 'god' to mean anything, it has to connote a being outside the created order, upon whom the created order is dependent. I don't think FF has ever posited the existence of such a being(s) in any of its iterations. The games generally take an anti-theistic stance, wherein supposed gods turn out to be in some manner fraudulent, or outright malevolent. I don't see XIV being an exception to this.

The fact that the Star was sundered along with Zodiark to me implies that Hydaelyn's attack did not discriminate between the Star itself, and the supposed 'will of the Star' (Zodiark). This in no wise suggests that the Star itself is dependent upon Zodiark: it was just caught in the crossfire between two Primals.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Hydaelyn isn't allowing humanity to operate independently, though. She actively allows those she has empowered to head off into the world and use their enhanced abilities to overthrow whoever they so please. In some cases it is justified in the name of putting down world ending threats. In other cases, however, it stifles the natural course of humanity's history - especially when the Warrior of Light starts to slay people over political differences.

To allow the equivalent of an empowered soldier to dictate who rises to the top of society is not a case of allowing humanity to dictate its own fate. Especially when we know that they are not immune to bias.

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Agreed. I get the impression (from Dragonsong and elsewhere) that Hydaelyn has come to think of these 14x-diluted beings as her 'children,' and she doesn't want her children to 'grow up' (i.e., become unsundered), because then the relation would be reversed: she would be the 'child' (creation) of those who summoned her to begin with.