Pipe Dreams: Chemist

Greetings.

Been a while since I've done one of these. Because healers seem to be a topic that comes up due to FFXIV still having 3 healers in the roster, along with some of the issues certain players have with healer design and the recent chemist discussions that have come up, I've decided to take a stab at designing a chemist healer. While it took me a bit too long to settle on a design, I think it's ready for peer review.

As is always the case with my write-ups, potencies and cooldowns are negotiable, though I'm open to all feedback.

FFXIV: Chemist

https://i.imgur.com/C5DkvWx.png
May I introduce you to Al the Chemist?

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Originally Posted by MOZZYSTAR

May I introduce you to Al the Chemist?

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https://i.imgur.com/hB0eMX1.jpg
In turn, meet User. Item User. But they sometimes go by Chemist, and often get confused for Al Chemist even though they're nothing alike.

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Originally Posted by MOZZYSTAR

https://i.imgur.com/C5DkvWx.png
May I introduce you to Al the Chemist?

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You do know that Chemist as a healer is one of the most anticipated jobs in the game right now right?

As for the OP, I have two issues with your design:

You have them wearing Aiming gear, with glamour as the reasoning. I feel like this isn't good enough reason to justify having a healer wearing DPS gear, and nowhere have you considered the stat implications. If CHM wore aiming gear it would have much higher DPS than the other healers, and very low heals as you haven't made any allowances to account for the lack of MND and PIE on aiming gear. This is all without considering that a party involving multiple ranged physical will now have to compete with a healer for gear.

My second issue is the lack of Mix. Mix is CHMs iconic move and should be involved in the job fundamentally in some way. Every job in the game has its iconic move within its toolkit, so a job like CHM (which can easily be built around its iconic move) should have that skill as a baseline. To put it simply, making CHM without Mix is as bad as making DRG without Jump.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

You do know that Chemist as a healer is one of the most anticipated jobs in the game right now right?

As for the OP, I have two issues with your design:

You have them wearing Aiming gear, with glamour as the reasoning. I feel like this isn't good enough reason to justify having a healer wearing DPS gear, and nowhere have you considered the stat implications. If CHM wore aiming gear it would have much higher DPS than the other healers, and very low heals as you haven't made any allowances to account for the lack of MND and PIE on aiming gear. This is all without considering that a party involving multiple ranged physical will now have to compete with a healer for gear.

My second issue is the lack of Mix. Mix is CHMs iconic move and should be involved in the job fundamentally in some way. Every job in the game has its iconic move within its toolkit, so a job like CHM (which can easily be built around its iconic move) should have that skill as a baseline. To put it simply, making CHM without Mix is as bad as making DRG without Jump.

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I dont think your MND point has legs, heals and damage scale off of what the devs want them to scale off of, healing scaling off of dex isnt an issue when RDM has a heal that scales off of int and PLD has a heal that scales off of strength, theres nothing intrinsic to mnd that would make it better, and the sheer fact that it is dex doesnt magically make it do more damage and less healing. The lack of PIE is a valid concern, however they could have a trait that turns DH into PIE

So, a nitpick that's minor in the long run, but still. Role actions are, well, role actions. I really doubt SE is going to make CHM's entirely unique, if they add the job.

But that does bring to mind an interesting point for discussion. Who will they share with? Of course, healer role actions would be the obvious choice. But that means MP will be a resource, and they'll probably be casters to some extent.

It would be both odd and bold if they shared with phys range, but that could be interesting in its own way. That and making them use aiming gear might be a bit too much balancing work for SE, but it would be an interesting changeup...

(Also, I have to laugh at people that think chemist can't be distinct from alchemist. I wonder what's even going on in their minds...)

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

You have them wearing Aiming gear, with glamour as the reasoning. I feel like this isn't good enough reason to justify having a healer wearing DPS gear, and nowhere have you considered the stat implications.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

I dont think your MND point has legs, heals and damage scale off of what the devs want them to scale off of, healing scaling off of dex isnt an issue when RDM has a heal that scales off of int and PLD has a heal that scales off of strength, theres nothing intrinsic to mnd that would make it better, and the sheer fact that it is dex doesnt magically make it do more damage and less healing. The lack of PIE is a valid concern, however they could have a trait that turns DH into PIE

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Rei is right. There are no real stat implications, and any minor adjustments that need to be made can be applied via a Lv1 trait. The main stat on any piece of gear is really just "power" with a different label. We should have stopped assigning gear by role by now, and started assigning it by aesthetics.

Well, this is going better than I anticipated.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

You have them wearing Aiming gear, with glamour as the reasoning. I feel like this isn't good enough reason to justify having a healer wearing DPS gear, and nowhere have you considered the stat implications.

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As others have said, the devs can make anything scale with whatever stat they want. The idea here is that potions would scale with DEX the way cures scale with MND. I guess I should have written that somewhere in my document, even if I considered it a logical inference.

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This is all without considering that a party involving multiple ranged physical will now have to compete with a healer for gear.

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Considering the current design aims to have a single physical ranged DPS in groups (you don't see many EX or Savage groups with more than one physical ranged), gear distribution wouldn't be as strained as you think. It'd be another story if physical ranged were treated the same DPS-wise as caster DPS, since then you'd see a lot more groups with multiple physical ranged and CHM would indeed become a problem in terms of gear distribution.

Aside from aesthetics, the beef I have with "of Healing" gear is that MND makes no sense for a non-magic healer, and neither does PIE. Sure, it might be possible to circumvent this issue by creating alternate names to MND and PIE on gear when equipped by CHM, but since "of Healing" aesthetics already clash, I thought killing two birds with one stone was the way to go.

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My second issue is the lack of Mix. Mix is CHMs iconic move and should be involved in the job fundamentally in some way. Every job in the game has its iconic move within its toolkit, so a job like CHM (which can easily be built around its iconic move) should have that skill as a baseline.

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At the risk of sounding like a PR spokesperson, Mix is in there. It's just part of the gameplay's design instead of being an ability on its own. Hence why Catalyst and Primers are there.

Considering certain people have called the proposals for Mix "copies of the Mudra system", I decided to take a different angle while still technically ticking that box.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

So, a nitpick that's minor in the long run, but still. Role actions are, well, role actions. I really doubt SE is going to make CHM's entirely unique, if they add the job.

But that does bring to mind an interesting point for discussion. Who will they share with? Of course, healer role actions would be the obvious choice. But that means MP will be a resource, and they'll probably be casters to some extent.

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Most Healer Role Actions are utility cooldowns with the exception of Repose and Esuna, so I don't think there's much to be worried about when it comes to MP. My suggested role actions are the exact same as the role actions for WHM/SCH/AST, but with a different name and tied to CHM's resource, Energy. Making CHM use MP for role actions and work off Energy for everything else doesn't make much sense to me.

Something else to note is that this points to the fact that SE has shackled the healer role to jobs that involve magic in some way, which is going to create problems when a non-magic healer like Chemist enters the discussion.

I like your idea but I would like to see a more typical use of Mix in a Chemist job. Not so much as using it for direct heals/damage, but in prepping for other abilities.

For example: Using Mix could pop up 3 vials that have the speed of mudras. Each of your proposed Catalyst effects could be achieved by mixing the proper 2 vials together (1+2 for healing boost, 1+3 for damage boost, 2+3 for support boost). Catalysts could have 3 tiers so that you can store them for future uses mid battle or during downtime. Catalyst buttons could switch to vial buttons after pressing Mix to prevent bloat (like DNC steps do). Make the DoTs do more damage to account for more time mixing and less time nuking.

I feel like CHM should be more busy than current SCH but less busy than current AST with liberal use of oGCDs due to mixing and using catalysts.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

I like your idea but I would like to see a more typical use of Mix in a Chemist job. Not so much as using it for direct heals/damage, but in prepping for other abilities.

For example: Using Mix could pop up 3 vials that have the speed of mudras. Each of your proposed Catalyst effects could be achieved by mixing the proper 2 vials together (1+2 for healing boost, 1+3 for damage boost, 2+3 for support boost). Catalysts could have 3 tiers so that you can store them for future uses mid battle or during downtime. Catalyst buttons could switch to vial buttons after pressing Mix to prevent bloat (like DNC steps do).

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There's a couple of issues I have with what you're suggesting. First that it sort of makes Catalyst as currently written pointless. One of the reasons Catalyst exists is to allow access to a quick oGDC heal (hence why it can react to Chemical Residue and said reaction heals for the equivalent of a Basic Potion) without having to burn Emergency Potion/Emergency Ampoule. It's also why I gave it 3 charges by the time CHM hits the level cap.

Second, separating the different reactions into separate Catalysts would involve more buttons to press, which personally I am not fond of. You'd need to split the Catalyst button into Healing Catalyst (this would be the 400 potency heal that reacts to Chemical Residue), Kinetic Catalyst (this would be the buff duration increase for Lifewater and Invigorator's effects), and Volatile Catalyst (to deal damage on targets under the effect of Poison or Bottled Fire/Inferno).

That said, I'm willing to consider your suggestion, but will have to make a couple of tweaks:

30 Mix (active for 10s. allows use of Abilities but not chemicals)
30 Healing Catalyst (triggers Chemical Residue)
30 Volatile Catalyst (triggers Poison & Bottled Fire/Inferno)
45 Kinetic Catalyst (triggers Lifewater & Invigorator)

When Mix is activated, Healing, Volatile and Kinetic Catalysts turn into Solutions Alpha, Beta and Gamma, which can be mixed in a certain order to create the catalysts. Mix has a 20s recast, so you have to decide which Catalyst you want to make, though you can save one of each until a later level (TBD) that allows you to store two of each catalyst for future use. Using these solutions to make catalysts increases the By-product Gauge by a higher percentage than your usual potions.

This would grant CHM access to the extra effects from the original Catalyst ability, adds Mix and increases By-product generation when used. Thoughts? (note: I've added a slightly better breakdown in my write-up under Discourse Topics)

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Make the DoTs do more damage to account for more time mixing and less time nuking.

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I don't think this is necessary, as I'd like the pace of Mix to be around the same amount of time AST spends on the cards. If the paradigm/design for healers changes, I am willing to come back and reconsider this.

Chemist could work as a job. I imagine its gimmick would be to "amalgamate" potions for different healing effects and buffs but it also can use potions exclusively. Examples of some skills:

Amalgamate = combine two potions for enhanced effect. Duration 5 secs. Recast 30 sec.
Hi-Potion = Restore target HP 200 potency and Regen. Instant. Recast 2.5 sec Duration 15 sec.
Max Potion = Restore target HP 800 potency. Instant. Recast 60 sec, 2 charges.
Elixir = Restore HP of self and nearby party members 200 potency. Instant. Recast 2.5 sec.
Remedy = 300 potency shield. Instant. Recast 2.5 sec
Eye Drops = Restore target Hp 200 potency. Removes Blind. Instant. Recast 2.5 sec. Effect changes when under Amalgamate.
Hi-Ether = restore MP. Duration 20 sec. Recast 90 sec

Amalgamate combinations:

-Hi-Potion + Elixir = 500 potency aoe heal + regen (15 sec)
-Max Potion + Eye Drops = 800 potency heal + 5% crit up (15 secs)
-Elixir + Remedy = 500 potency aoe heal + shield
-Hi-Ether + Elixir = Mp restoration + Mp regen aoe

If they are going to take inspiration from FFT I also hope they use a satchel or bag as their weapon. Im sure many players will flock to the class just to have a bag/purse as part of their glamour. I also imagine the potions are all instant but the act of amalgamating them would require a cast time. Chemist would be the most mobile healer due to the instant nature of potions.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

If they are going to take inspiration from FFT I also hope they use a satchel or bag as their weapon. Im sure many players will flock to the class just to have a bag/purse as part of their glamour. I also imagine the potions are all instant but the act of amalgamating them would require a cast time. Chemist would be the most mobile healer due to the instant nature of potions.

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Yesssss finally someone else who wants a satchel main hand! Gimme, please!

I would add hopes that the design of the vials used change depending on the satchel as well, but I could see them going the way of the text in grimoires and codexes. Couple varying designs but not unique, excluding relics.

Remember that AST started as the Chemist job, so the card system, and Mudras are the basis for how a Mix feature would probably work; the same with Dances now.

But a few things to note:
First, I don't suggest going beyond the game in it's current form. And by that I mean, if you are making a healer, they will share healer gear and use the healer role actions. It just makes the most sense.
Second, I'm not sure if you knew this, but Chemist, or Salve-maker as it will most likely be called, usually has a high magic stat, if WHM is A than CHM is B. While the idea of them not using magic makes some sense, based on their concept, most games give them access to basic "magic" which is offset by their personal buff. Basically, they can use MP for spells is what I am getting at.
And finally, I would suggest looking up some of the ability names used by Chemist, and all related jobs, in the past, so as to get a feel for their skill set. You, and most people I feel, seem to stick to their "item usage" nature, and forget that they have a background in magic as well. So it's not wrong for them to use magic, in fact, that could be how they "mix" the items together.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Remember that AST started as the Chemist job, so the card system, and Mudras are the basis for how a Mix feature would probably work; the same with Dances now.

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Agreed. That ship, however, has sailed. If abilities are supposed to be "unique", Mix has already lost because of Mudras and Steps/Finishes. Beyond that, my own concerns involve the fact that a healer looking away from health bars to mix things (either to build resources or prep said heals) could cause problems in certain encounters.

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if you are making a healer, they will share healer gear and use the healer role actions. It just makes the most sense.

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Mechanically, yes. Concept-wise, no. As I've mentioned before, healers are shackled to jobs that have are, in concept, magic users. I'm willing to acquiesce on gear for the sake of not messing with loot distribution for raids, but giving it role actions meant for an MP-using job when the rest of the kit is designed with its own resource in mind would leave the design at odds with itself.

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Second, I'm not sure if you knew this, but Chemist, or Salve-maker as it will most likely be called, usually has a high magic stat, if WHM is A than CHM is B. While the idea of them not using magic makes some sense, based on their concept, most games give them access to basic "magic" which is offset by their personal buff. Basically, they can use MP for spells is what I am getting at.

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I'm going largely by FFT's version of the job (Item User) along with some rudimentary research I did on FFV's Chemist. Especially in FFT's case, we need to keep in mind that Chemist was the start of the mage tree, so a) any magic stat growth is there because of that and b) it would in theory make it beneficial to cross-class magic (provided magic was useful, which in FFT it wasn't).

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

You have them wearing Aiming gear, with glamour as the reasoning. I feel like this isn't good enough reason to justify having a healer wearing DPS gear, and nowhere have you considered the stat implications. If CHM wore aiming gear it would have much higher DPS than the other healers, and very low heals as you haven't made any allowances to account for the lack of MND and PIE on aiming gear.

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You realize different skills use different stats for their throughput stat, right? Cleric Stance, for instance, allowed healing based on Intelligence if normally based on Mind, while other heals are just outright based on Mind, Strength (via Attack Power), or Dexterity (again, via Attack Power). We've have multiple Attack Power heals since ARR, so why would it suddenly be an issue now? You could quite simply have all Chemist skills generate throughput from Dexterity and... done. At worst you'd have to worry about no access to Piety outside of melds, but... who has ever wanted Piety?

I feel like expecting Chemist to come, let alone as a healer is setting people up for disappointment like Dancer.

It's more likely to see Geomancer first.

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

It's more likely to see Geomancer first.

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That is a recipe for disappointment too. Also I don't wanna see GEO as a healer. I prefer Tank, but I'll take a DPS as well.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Remember that AST started as the Chemist job

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Er... no?

SE said "item user" AKA chemist was one of the candidates they considered back in HW. AST didn't start as chemist any more than Samurai was rooted in Machinist.

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

I feel like expecting Chemist to come, let alone as a healer is setting people up for disappointment like Dancer.

It's more likely to see Geomancer first.

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Well, setting your hopes on any one thing is a high risk for disappointment. That said, there's a lot of community interesting in CHM - more than geomancer, from all indications - so I think saying Geomancer is more likely seems unlikely.

But we won't really know what jobs in what roles are being added till the announcement comes. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Er... no?

SE said "item user" AKA chemist was one of the candidates they considered back in HW. AST didn't start as chemist any more than Samurai was rooted in Machinist.

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Yes.

SE stated that Chemist was the intended healer at the time, utilizing guns as their main weapon. But since they couldn't get the mix command to function how they wanted, it eventually developed into the card system for AST. But prior to the reveal of both jobs, SE only hinted at a gun wielding job. MCH was the byproduct of that, since they "hinted" at a gun wielding job at the time, but had originally planned on it being a healer.

If you go back and scour through all of the live letters and whatnot you'll find the "official" source, but here is something I found on TV Tropes that can at least point you in the right direction, if you wanna search. Because, honestly, at this point in time, that bit of info is just common knowledge for most veteran players.

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To a lesser extent, when information for*Heavensward*was buzzing about, Michael "Fernehalwes" Koji-Fox said that the expansion wouldn't have a new DPS class, but a healer one. Later in that same fan fest, he heavily alluded to a gun using class. Come the December fan fest, he showed that there was indeed a new DPS class: Machinists, and the healers he was talking about are Astrologians, an entirely new, completely unforeshadowed class. In a later Live Letter Koji admitted that when he made that statement, there really*were*plans for a gun-toting healer class based on the Chemist from*Final Fantasy Tactics. However, there were enough problems regarding mechanics during the preliminary phase of development that they scrapped the idea and made the Machinist and Astrologian instead.

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As for the idea of Chemist proposed here, I think a primary complaint from the amount of resources required just for basic healing.
Basic Potion (Heal 1) **Consumes 15% of “MP”**
Airborne Medicine (AoE Heal, Regen) **Consumes 25% of “MP”**
Advanced Potion (Heal 2) **Consumes 25% of “MP”**
Healing Ampoule (AoE Heal) **Consumes 35% of “MP”**
Phoenix Pinion (Revive) **Consumes 45% of “MP”**

With the current system, casting GCD heals 2-3 times is as punishing as reviving an ally, casting many damage spells has no impact on your resources, excluding Poisoned Syringe. This is a job that could easily maintain DPS through a raid, but when I think of situations like E4S’ Voice of the Land, Tumult, Voice of the Land, Earthen Fury combo, I don’t think it could keep up. At the very least, while this job might be attractive to DPS mains, I don’t think any healer would want to heal alongside it.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

To a lesser extent, when information for*Heavensward*was buzzing about, Michael "Fernehalwes" Koji-Fox said that the expansion wouldn't have a new DPS class, but a healer one. Later in that same fan fest, he heavily alluded to a gun using class. Come the December fan fest, he showed that there was indeed a new DPS class: Machinists, and the healers he was talking about are Astrologians, an entirely new, completely unforeshadowed class. In a later Live Letter Koji admitted that when he made that statement, there really*were*plans for a gun-toting healer class based on the Chemist from*Final Fantasy Tactics. However, there were enough problems regarding mechanics during the preliminary phase of development that they scrapped the idea and made the Machinist and Astrologian instead.

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Hmm, well that's interesting, but the way that reads, it sounds like there's more of a connection to machinist and chemist than to astro. There's no hint that AST took any design elements from the would-be chemist, just that it's what they went to when they "scrapped the idea" - that phrasing also suggests AST didn't take from Chemist.

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Originally Posted by Cyrocco

As for the idea of Chemist proposed here, I think a primary complaint from the amount of resources required just for basic healing.
Basic Potion (Heal 1) **Consumes 15% of “MP”**
Airborne Medicine (AoE Heal, Regen) **Consumes 25% of “MP”**
Advanced Potion (Heal 2) **Consumes 25% of “MP”**
Healing Ampoule (AoE Heal) **Consumes 35% of “MP”**
Phoenix Pinion (Revive) **Consumes 45% of “MP”**

With the current system, casting GCD heals 2-3 times is as punishing as reviving an ally, casting many damage spells has no impact on your resources, excluding Poisoned Syringe. This is a job that could easily maintain DPS through a raid, but when I think of situations like E4S’ Voice of the Land, Tumult, Voice of the Land, Earthen Fury combo, I don’t think it could keep up.

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Thanks for the input. I could reduce the cost of stuff across the board or increase energy regen rate to be higher than 4 energy/second. Balancing resources that are spent quickly and regen quickly is admittedly tricky, so I'm sure there's gonna be some more revisions to that system.

As for healing output, I figured Chemical Residue (80 cure potency for 21s) being stackable might help. One scenario that comes to mind is stockpile Primers => Airborne Medicine => Primed Potion => Primed Potion => Megalixir => Propagation => 8 stacks of Chemical Residue (640 cure potency per second XD). On that topic, I'm planning to cap Chemical Residue to 4/5 stacks (total of 320/400 cure potency per second for 21 seconds) and/or modify Propagation so that it doubles the value healed but reduces the duration of the buff by 40/50%. I guess even with these values, the job might need a bit of burst healing (I lack a frame of reference here since I've never done E4S).

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Hmm, well that's interesting, but the way that reads, it sounds like there's more of a connection to machinist and chemist than to astro. There's no hint that AST took any design elements from the would-be chemist, just that it's what they went to when they "scrapped the idea" - that phrasing also suggests AST didn't take from Chemist.

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That's just a summery of the events that transpired though. It's not an actual account of what happened. And like I mentioned, it was the Mix command that was giving them problems, and that's what eventually became the card system as we know it. We don't know how into the development the job was before the switch, but we do know it was the iconic Chemist ability that was giving them the issue. That's what AST takes away from the Chemist idea, before it turned into more of a, and still sorta is, a Time Mage-esque job. The only thing MCH got from the initial idea was the weapon, to our knowledge.

I like chemist as an idea but I don't think that chemist can fit into the current state of healers.

The devs have with their current design limited mix much more heavily than had they actually tried to release in HW.

Mix cannot give anything but dmg boost, anything else would let ast players point at chm and go why do they get varied effects with their gimmick and not us.

Any sort of healing tied to mix would have to be pretty potent to require multiple gcds ala mudra/ steps which would then lower basic heals to compensate. Yet this would then cause issues ala 5.0 ast where it is too far behind it's competition, which would then be buffed up making the more potent heals redundant.(just think of lower skilled players or stuck with abysmal tanks you couldn't use the the mix gimmick).

Any straight dmg ala Dots nukes etc would again be potent while the numbers would be fine to balance the fact they get both a nuke+ dot and theor gimmick gives them access to more if skilled is going to be cause a lot of healers to jump on board fast because so many people want something more to do while playing a healer.

Chemist coming into the current state of healers would have a watered down mix and I would hate that to happen to it.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Any sort of healing tied to mix would have to be pretty potent to require multiple gcds ala mudra/ steps which would then lower basic heals to compensate. Yet this would then cause issues ala 5.0 ast where it is too far behind it's competition, which would then be buffed up making the more potent heals redundant.(just think of lower skilled players or stuck with abysmal tanks you couldn't use the the mix gimmick).

Any straight dmg ala Dots nukes etc would again be potent while the numbers would be fine to balance the fact they get both a nuke+ dot and theor gimmick gives them access to more if skilled is going to be cause a lot of healers to jump on board fast because so many people want something more to do while playing a healer.

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Mix with high potencies for healing or damage would be fine. The balance there is in the extended execution time, not in lowering the potencies of GCD actions. If a three step mix were to result in, e.g. a 1000 potency AoE heal with a 3.5s activation sequence on a 30s cooldown, this would not be significantly overpowered compared to the other healers. 3.5s is roughly 1.5 GCDs, during which any of the other healers could do roughly 1000 potency with an oGCD and one and a half AoE spells. If anything, 1000 potency might be slightly underpowered in comparison because the 3.5s activation excludes it from being used with the same level of flexibility that the other healers have with their oGCDs.

There isn't really any reason to decrease the potency of their GCD actions for this.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

I like chemist as an idea but I don't think that chemist can fit into the current state of healers.

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Sorry if this comes off as flippant, but... is that even a worthwhile goal, given how poorly received that state has been? Shouldn't we almost be doing the opposite, trying to find job ideas that could synergize with movement out of the current near-infamous rut we find ourselves in?

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Chemist coming into the current state of healers would have a watered down mix and I would hate that to happen to it.

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Same, which is why I'd be fine with delaying it, and perhaps even almost any and all new jobs, for increases in identity, diversity, and generally fun gameplay among the existing cast. But that benchmark only gets further and further out of reach when truncating every new idea to the current lowest denominator. Perhaps we should be talking a bit less about that and more about the changes, good or bad, it could compel or allow for the jobs surrounding it?

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Thanks for the input. I could reduce the cost of stuff across the board or increase energy regen rate to be higher than 4 energy/second. Balancing resources that are spent quickly and regen quickly is admittedly tricky, so I'm sure there's gonna be some more revisions to that system.

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Rather than rework the energy system I think it's important to realize the core kit surrounding the job you want to design, while WHM can feel somewhat lacking when it comes to what makes it unique (though some may argue Lillies), Scholars kit focuses Aetherflow, Shielding, and Fairies; Astrologian focuses on cards. The basic heals Cure, Physick, and Benefic respectively, don't interact with the jobs kit resource. As a result, one could feel that White Mage, Astrologian and Scholar are all capable of baseline healing without worrying about how it will affect their other mechanics. Reducing the energy costs will definitely make the job more functional, but basic healing shouldn't play into a jobs kit, in many instances, that kit isn't unlocked until level 30 anyway.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Mix with high potencies for healing or damage would be fine. The balance there is in the extended execution time, not in lowering the potencies of GCD actions. If a three step mix were to result in, e.g. a 1000 potency AoE heal with a 3.5s activation sequence on a 30s cooldown, this would not be significantly overpowered compared to the other healers. 3.5s is roughly 1.5 GCDs, during which any of the other healers could do roughly 1000 potency with an oGCD and one and a half AoE spells. If anything, 1000 potency might be slightly underpowered in comparison because the 3.5s activation excludes it from being used with the same level of flexibility that the other healers have with their oGCDs.

There isn't really any reason to decrease the potency of their GCD actions for this.

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Problem is that would make it redundant on top of if mix offered any tangible better dps boost outside the heal be it crit, DH, base etc it would have the same issue ast had and be memed that you only want x and you have ast current situation to look forward to where all you get is the one thing(even if that one thing is heals) making mix no longer mix :(

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Sorry if this comes off as flippant, but... is that even a worthwhile goal, given how poorly received that state has been? Shouldn't we almost be doing the opposite, trying to find job ideas that could synergize with movement out of the current near-infamous rut we find ourselves in?


Same, which is why I'd be fine with delaying it, and perhaps even almost any and all new jobs, for increases in identity, diversity, and generally fun gameplay among the existing cast. But that benchmark only gets further and further out of reach when truncating every new idea to the current lowest denominator. Perhaps we should be talking a bit less about that and more about the changes, good or bad, it could compel or allow for the jobs surrounding it?

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Unless we see a U-turn on how the devs view how healers should be any new idea will be forced into their current vision. Since this is how they intend healers to be, they can be wrong but they would have to acknowledge that they are which they haven't not regards to healers anyway.

Remember the state 5.0 ast and sch were they honestly thought it was perfectly fine same with 4.0 lily system. Then look at how healers have 'progressed' since HW, SB more heals added gauges 1 being entirely pointless until ShB and loss of dps tools, ShB even more heals more loss of dps tools but gauges have uses but most hated iteration of all 3 healers (most people never hated whm it was just under performing to its competition now I actually see people hate it due to the downtime issue plaguing all 3 healers).

With the devs mindset since midway through HW (time they probably thinking of job changes for SB) I cannot see chemist having its iconic mix not be incredibly watered down.

If Chemist was released for HW, sure I could've seen it happening.
If Chemist was released for SB, I could've seen that happening too.
If Chemist was released for ShB, before press release yep same as above,after press release nope.
Can I see Chemist released for 6.0, Nope. Not until the devs show a massive change in their viewpoint and design process.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

That's just a summery of the events that transpired though. It's not an actual account of what happened. And like I mentioned, it was the Mix command that was giving them problems, and that's what eventually became the card system as we know it. We don't know how into the development the job was before the switch, but we do know it was the iconic Chemist ability that was giving them the issue. That's what AST takes away from the Chemist idea, before it turned into more of a, and still sorta is, a Time Mage-esque job. The only thing MCH got from the initial idea was the weapon, to our knowledge.

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Hmm. Well, it does make me think that - if they failed to prototype chemist once - geomancer or some other alternative might be more likely. Not because of overlap with AST, but just in its own right from having tried it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Sorry if this comes off as flippant, but... is that even a worthwhile goal, given how poorly received that state has been? Shouldn't we almost be doing the opposite, trying to find job ideas that could synergize with movement out of the current near-infamous rut we find ourselves in?


Same, which is why I'd be fine with delaying it, and perhaps even almost any and all new jobs, for increases in identity, diversity, and generally fun gameplay among the existing cast. But that benchmark only gets further and further out of reach when truncating every new idea to the current lowest denominator. Perhaps we should be talking a bit less about that and more about the changes, good or bad, it could compel or allow for the jobs surrounding it?

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So, by the time 6.0 is here, it will have been 6 years between healer releases. That's assuming a healer *is* released in 6.0, which isn't a guarantee. 4 of those years will have seen SE going "but we want to balance the existing jobs before adding new ones." Do you really want to make that 8 years, with 6 being chasing balance? 10 and 8? Where do we stop?

The game's already spending a pretty significant portion of its lifecycle with no new content. And if you spend forever chasing the perfect incarnation/balance, you might never add anything new. Every argument against adding a new healer could be applied to adding a new tank, but we still got gunbreaker. And by all accounts, some people very much enjoy playing it.

I laud your patience, but for me, 6+ years a bit long. Not even Blizzard treats healers like that, and I wouldn't exactly call them the gold standard.

And, you know. There's not exactly any guarantee that SE won't mess up WHM and maybe another healer in 6.0, putting us right back where we started - and since SE doesn't do reworks until the next expac, we'd be stuck with that for two years before anything happened.

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And lastly, to both you and Crushnight: Do you really think we'll get out of the rut by never testing new ideas/jobs? By this sort of attitude, we might as well go back to 2 healers and 2 tanks and never try any other concepts again.

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Originally Posted by Cyrocco

Rather than rework the energy system I think it's important to realize the core kit surrounding the job you want to design, while WHM can feel somewhat lacking when it comes to what makes it unique (though some may argue Lillies), Scholars kit focuses Aetherflow, Shielding, and Fairies; Astrologian focuses on cards. The basic heals Cure, Physick, and Benefic respectively, don't interact with the jobs kit resource. As a result, one could feel that White Mage, Astrologian and Scholar are all capable of baseline healing without worrying about how it will affect their other mechanics. Reducing the energy costs will definitely make the job more functional, but basic healing shouldn't play into a jobs kit, in many instances, that kit isn't unlocked until level 30 anyway.

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What I was talking about with "revisions" was stuff like adjustments to energy consumption or energy regen. Those are usually the bugbears with that sort of system.

If I understand what you're saying, the standard healer stuff (Basic Potion, Advanced Potion, Remedy Syringe, Phoenix Pinion) should solely interact with Energy but not have anything to do with Primers. I guess mechanically this could make sense, but on a concept level it stretches things a bit.

That all said, I don't think comparing AST cards to SCH shields/fairy is a fair comparison. The former is a gimmick, the latter is a gameplay element. AST losing the cards might yield some grumbles from AST mains at most, but SCH losing shields/fairy would make it unplayable and require a major redesign of the job. My goal was for the latter through the synergy between regular heals, Primers, and Catalysts.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Hmm. Well, it does make me think that - if they failed to prototype chemist once - geomancer or some other alternative might be more likely. Not because of overlap with AST, but just in its own right from having tried it.

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My clashing with the way the devs do things shows in my saying this, but giving up because Mix could not be implemented as an ability does not count as "having tried it". By that logic SCH should never have come in because it would need to have Study/Peep/Scan or it has no identity. And that's obviously not what happened; the job was adjusted in accordance to in-world lore and given shields and a fairy. Seeing that other job gimmicks have seen mixed success (Jump, Black Magic and White Magic being the successes, Cover and Throw being among the not-so-successful), I'm of the opinion it's not something to get hung up on. Should we/the devs try to make the gimmicks work? Definitely. Should it be a stopping point in development if that doesn't work out or can't be implemented? No, it shouldn't be.

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So, by the time 6.0 is here, it will have been 6 years between healer releases. That's assuming a healer *is* released in 6.0, which isn't a guarantee. 4 of those years will have seen SE going "but we want to balance the existing jobs before adding new ones." Do you really want to make that 8 years, with 6 being chasing balance? 10 and 8? Where do we stop?

The game's already spending a pretty significant portion of its lifecycle with no new content. And if you spend forever chasing the perfect incarnation/balance, you might never add anything new. Every argument against adding a new healer could be applied to adding a new tank, but we still got gunbreaker. And by all accounts, some people very much enjoy playing it.

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The balance thing is either an excuse or a sign that the overall plan is to shift the design paradigm of healers before a new healer is introduced. I don't mind simplistic healer design, but seeing how certain jobs have been left with barebones systems (AST cards) or shit that's incomplete (Selene serving no purpose in current SCH design), I lean to the former. I also consider it a consequence of designing two jobs per expansion; with that formula you're gonna have someone left out, and with DPS players outnumbering tank and healer mains it not gonna be them.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

And lastly, to both you and Crushnight: Do you really think we'll get out of the rut by never testing new ideas/jobs? By this sort of attitude, we might as well go back to 2 healers and 2 tanks and never try any other concepts again.

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I never said not try anything new but you have to take in account Dev content, if your idea adds a 6 dps spell combo, it is very clearly against Dev intent where they want hlr dps abilities bare bones with no interaction etc.

If Chemist was being proposed in any other expansion (it was) I would support whole heartily but because how ShB healers are, I do not see Chemist as viable without heavy watering down one of its biggest draws 'mix' , the other draw being item manipulation which cannot work in ffxiv due to how our item system works(you could do something like ogcd buff makes your next item ability 'casted' become instant or double used etc - see an idea I ain't against them :p).

I think Chemist has ultimately been shelved they tried to make it work for HW when they were a lot more free to design however they wanted compared to now where Chm must have
-gcd small heal that'll be obsolete once hit ShB content
-gcd big heal
-gcd aoe heal
-ogcd panic heal
-ogcd aoe heal
-ogcd single target heal
-ogcd healing up
-a bubble
-ogcd shield
-long gcd raise
-hlr role actions
-gcd dot
-gcd nuke
-gcd aoe dmg
-then they can have their gimmick stuff.

I would love for the devs to prove that the current hlr design can be shaken up but that is the thing they have to prove it. atm they are so adamantly silent about healers who the hell knows what is going on and this has made me quite cynical unfortunately, I would love a chemist with a varied mix added but current Dev intent says no not a maybe a flat out NO.

Man i wish it weren't :(

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

So, by the time 6.0 is here, it will have been 6 years between healer releases. That's assuming a healer *is* released in 6.0, which isn't a guarantee. 4 of those years will have seen SE going "but we want to balance the existing jobs before adding new ones." Do you really want to make that 8 years, with 6 being chasing balance? 10 and 8? Where do we stop?

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Honestly, better just three flavors of healer than four sub-flavors of just one. If we get another of the same, it's going to be as if it was never added, at least to me.

But, let's be clear: I've not said that new healer jobs needed to be delayed indefinitely, only that if it came down to creating more of the same or nothing, I'd sooner take nothing and spare us the deepened precedent that all healers are just slight variations in flavor from each other. A new job is probably our best way to break that precedent, but wasting the 4th job on more of the same will make that task so much harder for the 5th. That's why I said the job's implementation shouldn't be held to the constraints of existing jobs so much as it should be looking to free the existing jobs from those constraints.

Put simply, I think they need to be more careful of what they designate "balance" if/when not also being mindful of what it takes to make a compelling experience in the first place. HW made the WHM and SCH feel a bit less distinct in capacity more more distinct in style; we lost nothing. SB had, for the most part, interesting enhancements, once polished (or just more of the same, really, in the case of WHM, which was still mostly fine). ShB finally made something unique for WHM (a functional Lily system), but also cost it in other areas, and largely gutted AST. It was one step forward, two steps right, three steps backwards, so to speak. That can't be our approach in the future. A fixation on balance cannot afford to sacrifice balanced fun as well. But so far it largely has, and (as of the latest round of buffs) the healer jobs haven't really gotten any more balanced despite it. I see no value in introducing a new healer per those constraints. A new healer should be designed specifically to pull the other 3 out of the rut, not deepen it further.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

And lastly, to both you and Crushnight: Do you really think we'll get out of the rut by never testing new ideas/jobs? By this sort of attitude, we might as well go back to 2 healers and 2 tanks and never try any other concepts again.

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...Reread what you've just quoted from me and you'd quickly see that's the exact opposite of what I've suggested.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Unless we see a U-turn on how the devs view how healers should be any new idea will be forced into their current vision. Since this is how they intend healers to be, they can be wrong but they would have to acknowledge that they are which they haven't not regards to healers anyway.

Remember the state 5.0 ast and sch were they honestly thought it was perfectly fine same with 4.0 lily system. Then look at how healers have 'progressed' since HW, SB more heals added gauges 1 being entirely pointless until ShB and loss of dps tools, ShB even more heals more loss of dps tools but gauges have uses but most hated iteration of all 3 healers (most people never hated whm it was just under performing to its competition now I actually see people hate it due to the downtime issue plaguing all 3 healers).

With the devs mindset since midway through HW (time they probably thinking of job changes for SB) I cannot see chemist having its iconic mix not be incredibly watered down.

If Chemist was released for HW, sure I could've seen it happening.
If Chemist was released for SB, I could've seen that happening too.
If Chemist was released for ShB, before press release yep same as above,after press release nope.
Can I see Chemist released for 6.0, Nope. Not until the devs show a massive change in their viewpoint and design process.

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Agreed, but drastically new things (like the first healer in 6 years) also provide exactly the excuse necessary for drastic changes. Without that, you tend to be stuck.

Even a good change can receive scornful uproar from players if it seems to have no real impetus. Give the change a compelling poster child, though, and -- often enough -- suddenly that change is responsive, effective, and practically sacred to the critical and white knights alike.

I'm personally a major advocate for Chemist's addition to this game (as can be seen from my earlier class concept thread), but I do agree that there needs to be a major shift in healer design philosophy if they're going to add another healer. I'm hoping this shift in philosophy happens by 6.0, but I'm not sure if I'm optimistic yet.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I've not said that new healer jobs needed to be delayed indefinitely, only that if it came down to creating more of the same or nothing, I'd sooner take nothing and spare us the deepened precedent that all healers are just slight variations in flavor from each other.

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One the one hand, I can see where you're coming from. On the other, you have the decision of whether to make this change apply only to new expansion content/level range or make it from the bottom up. Keep in mind that the latter means they have to look at content from ARR, HW, SB, ShB and the new expansion that would bring this change.

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I see no value in introducing a new healer per those constraints. A new healer should be designed specifically to pull the other 3 out of the rut, not deepen it further.

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I'll ask that you elaborate on the constraints and lack of distinction that I keep hearing about.

Could be just me, but I consider the fact that Cure/Benefic get phased out after lv70 (because it means there's something wrong with how healing or damage taken is scaling) and the 2-healer meta this game has locked itself into to be the biggest problems when it comes to the healer roster.

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Anyway, just wanted to pop in to say I made some changes to the write up.

Change log:

- Based on feedback, CHM's gear has been changed from "of Aiming" gear to "of Healing" gear.

- The following abilities have received adjustments to their Energy costs:
Basic Potion - 12 Energy
Poisoned Syringe - 15 Energy
Airborne Medicine - 18 Energy
Phoenix Pinion - 35 Energy
Advanced Potion - 18 Energy
Healing Ampoule - 20 Energy
Primed Potion/Ampoule/Poison Syringe - 6 Energy
Emergency Potion/Ampoule - 0 Energy

- Energy regen rate has been increased to 6 energy per second (or 18 energy per server tick), but this amount is reduced to 3 energy per second while preparing potions (or 9 energy per server tick).

- Efficient Syntheses' passive by-product generation has been increased to 3% per second when eligible abilities are on cooldown.

- Chemical Residue's reaction to Catalysts has been adjusted to restore HP with a potency of 350 per stack of Chemical Residue on affected target.

- The number of stacks of Chemical Residue a player may have has been capped at 5 stacks.

- Emergency Potion and Emergency Ampoule have been changed to Abilities (thus being oGCD).

- Propagator now spreads Chemical Residue stacks to party members nearby target. Additionally, it applies a healing over time effect to the main target that heals with a potency determined by the number of stacks on target upon execution, for 9 seconds.

On the docket

- Catalyst: Adapting a suggestion by MartaDemireux, I'm planning on breaking up Catalyst into two abilities. One for healing reactions and one for damage reactions. As of the moment, both share charges/cooldowns. I've yet to decide on a cooldown and just where in the skill spread I should put them.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

One the one hand, I can see where you're coming from. On the other, you have the decision of whether to make this change apply only to new expansion content/level range or make it from the bottom up. Keep in mind that the latter means they have to look at content from ARR, HW, SB, ShB and the new expansion that would bring this change.
I'll ask that you elaborate on the constraints and lack of distinction that I keep hearing about.

Could be just me, but I consider the fact that Cure/Benefic get phased out after lv70 (because it means there's something wrong with how healing or damage taken is scaling) and the 2-healer meta this game has locked itself into to be the biggest problems when it comes to the healer roster

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Thing is the devs clearly only look at the current expansion they are working on atm ShB but that will shift by about 5.4 to 6.0 expansion.

The healer design we currently have does not take into account pre 5.0 content at all and it was something I personally was preaching from the moment media tour embargo was lifted as it was very clear to me everything that was done does not care about 2.0-4.55 content.

ARR and HW have a bigger disparity in downtime than SB and ShB due to the devs actively designing what if cleric stance locked or allowing decent time for cleric to be put on, mechanics are slower, less punishing. Now they have taken a large portion of what healers did during that downtime but the amount remains and actually has been amplified by ShB changes.

Also anyone could easily see that for over 70 levels 1 dot + 1 nuke is incredibly stupid and boring design. But if you just look at 70-80 doesn't look as bad now does it especially with ramping mechanics up (though not that punishing still but I don't expect that from dungeons and story trials) and frequency of mechanics.

It is very clear with dungeon design how much they expect the general population to deal with as the expansions go, I was actually shocked by Philia having as much as it did tied to it despite being very easy and manageable.

Evolution of healers have unfortunately followed dungeon design where they feel that you have to deal with more so we need to take away as much distractions so you can focus more easily.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Thing is the devs clearly only look at the current expansion they are working on atm ShB but that will shift by about 5.4 to 6.0 expansion.

The healer design we currently have does not take into account pre 5.0 content at all and it was something I personally was preaching from the moment media tour embargo was lifted as it was very clear to me everything that was done does not care about 2.0-4.55 content.

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My concern, for lack of a better word, is that we're talking about changing healer kits and/or the paradigm for design. For example, if we decided to add dispeling and cleansing to healer duties, you have to choice of introducing those duties at the start of 6.0 or having to go back and look at most old content to try to fit those duties in (if nothing else to try to teach people that don't buy leveling potions how to play a healer). Same would go for something like changing how healers play so that more heals are cast or make HoTs/shields more prominent to allow more DPS uptime. It just involves much more than taking an extra damage spell away or removing an extra button to press (like Cleric Stance).

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Originally Posted by Duelle

My concern, for lack of a better word, is that we're talking about changing healer kits and/or the paradigm for design. For example, if we decided to add dispeling and cleansing to healer duties, you have to choice of introducing those duties at the start of 6.0 or having to go back and look at most old content to try to fit those duties in (if nothing else to try to teach people that don't buy leveling potions how to play a healer). Same would go for something like changing how healers play so that more heals are cast or make HoTs/shields more prominent to allow more DPS uptime. It just involves much more than taking an extra damage spell away or removing an extra button to press (like Cleric Stance).

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If they add a new mechanic to healers or change how they have designed healers, the devs will only look and balance it in the expansion it is released in with all its content anything prior will not be adjusted for it.

Examples of this design philosophy
-nin release in 2.4 broke anything before it and was still a powerhouse with the stuff it was released with
-Rdm destroyed lower level content due to high potency single spells with dual cast
-Smn release in SB and ShB were fundementally lacking below new content (ultimate Bahamut is apparently horrible for smn now - I only hear second hand on this one)
-ShB mch is very strong while leveling pre 5.0 content(ping dependant like nothing else but strong)
-Gnb is crazy strong at lv70

The devs do not care unless it breaks the current level cap they are working on, so anything new would be balanced to lv90 content in mind.

In hopes of steering the thread back towards the idea of chemist, let's talk about Mix.

Despite my not being sold on Mix, I've been playing around with a couple of concepts for such an ability.

1) The Dualcast approach - This would play similarly to the current RDM where things happen as you use potions/chemicals back to back. The window for reactions would have to be fairly short (around 6-8 seconds). The positives of this approach is that you get Mix and the products without interrupting the flow of gameplay. The negatives can be summed up in two words: button bloat.

2) Resource generation approach - This would turn Mix into a way to generate resources, either something akin to by-products or catalysts. You activate Mix, hit buttons to make your catalysts/generate resources, go back to healing. The positives here are that you could pace resource generation around the Mix ability and simplify resource generation. The negatives are that you're shackling the job's performance to how often Mix is used and are forced to stop doing your primary function (healing) in order to use Mix.

3) The DNC approach - This approach requires Mix to work similarly to how steps do. Activate Mix, then hit buttons. Instead of dealing AoE damage centered on the player the CHM would throw potions at a target, restoring HP within a radius of the target. Each potion/chemical used would restore HP, though some would restore less HP in exchange for applying a regen effect or a damage shield. The positives here is that you get Mix as an ability while restoring HP when you use it (meaning Mix is not taking away from your primary role). The downside is that limiting mix to restoring HP/Regen/damage shield might be seen as too restrictive by certain people, poor timing might leave the CHM vulnerable, and the ability might become too powerful in future content if more chemicals/potions are added for Mix.