the dragoon is penalized

You all talk about buffing... Do you even play each single job at Square Enix?
The DRG, for istance, is the only melee who cannot count on the use of a off-global cd skill which allows him to fast approach the boss, such as shukichi, gyoten or tackle shoulder.
DRG has got Elusive Jump, yeah... the same skill which kills you if you make 1cm mistake in positioning.
Or maybe Spinshatter Dive, which has 1min of cd for 240 of potency. Why don’t you nerf this useless skill adding 2 stacks of use to it?
What about Chaos Thrust? 24 sec... it expires each time you need to move during DRG rotation.
On the other hand, Disembowel lasts 30 sec and it’s easier to refresh it before it expires. So why don’t you make Chaos last 30 sec, too?
Please, next time try focusing on useful adjustments, not useless ones such as Blood of Dragoon updates.:mad::mad::mad::mad:

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Originally Posted by Mhilthia

You all talk about buffing... Do you even play each single job at Square Enix?
The DRG, for istance, is the only melee who cannot count on the use of a off-global cd skill which allows him to fast approach the boss, such as shukichi, gyoten or tackle shoulder.
DRG has got Elusive Jump, yeah... the same skill which kills you if you make 1cm mistake in positioning.
Or maybe Spinshatter Dive, which has 1min of cd for 240 of potency. Why don’t you nerf this useless skill adding 2 stacks of use to it?
What about Chaos Thrust? 24 sec... it expires each time you need to move during DRG rotation.
On the other hand, Disembowel lasts 30 sec and it’s easier to refresh it before it expires. So why don’t you make Chaos last 30 sec, too?
Please, next time try focusing on useful adjustments, not useless ones such as Blood of Dragoon updates.:mad::mad::mad::mad:

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Making Chaos Thrust last 30s would mean you would clip it every time you tried using it, it doesnt matter if you clip disembowel as its a damage buff, so yeah rewarding dragoons with good uptime on chaos thrust if they keep uptime is good class design.

Unlike Monk and the other classes with 2 charges on gap closers, dragoon is the only class that has a movement ability without needing a target, as well as having 3 different gap closers, dragoon has loads of mobility, and if you think that elusive is bad design cos YOU miss with it, then you just need to get better at dragoon, its called having a skill cieling.

first of all high jump takes you back to where you start the skill, so you can't consider it such, then both dragon fire and spinshatter, you have to pull them in rotation and recast to not lose dps, so keep them on occasions when the boss jumps is a loss of dps. for the elusive jump it is great to escape from some things, but to get closer it is too risky, because you have to turn your back, if it were like the en avant I would give you reason, but it is not.
as for the chaos, I would prefer to recast it at 2 or 3 sec all the time, that to make it expire every time you have to move, it is a skill in rotation, not a dot like higanbana that you have to pay attention to and you can refresh it also at 1, it is refresh in auto, so if the clip is a problem, they would raise it to at least 26, so there is no risk of it expiring

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Originally Posted by Mhilthia

first of all high jump takes you back to where you start the skill, so you can't consider it such, then both dragon fire and spinshatter, you have to pull them in rotation and recast to not lose dps, so keep them on occasions when the boss jumps is a loss of dps. for the elusive jump it is great to escape from some things, but to get closer it is too risky, because you have to turn your back, if it were like the en avant I would give you reason, but it is not.
as for the chaos, I would prefer to recast it at 2 or 3 sec all the time, that to make it expire every time you have to move, it is a skill in rotation, not a dot like higanbana that you have to pay attention to and you can refresh it also at 1, it is refresh in auto, so if the clip is a problem, they would raise it to at least 26, so there is no risk of it expiring

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I wasn't referring to high jump as a gap closer I was referring to stardiver but okay, its not difficult to turn around and use elusive jump, on legacy cam you literally just press backwards, not hard, be better at drg I guess. Also your thinking of chaos thrust wrong imo, as its a step in a combo you use ridgidly and not a free dot, think of it as a 645 potency attack like full thrust but stronger, making it last longer just isn't necessary

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Making Chaos Thrust last 30s would mean you would clip it every time you tried using it, it doesnt matter if you clip disembowel as its a damage buff, so yeah rewarding dragoons with good uptime on chaos thrust if they keep uptime is good class design.

Unlike Monk and the other classes with 2 charges on gap closers, dragoon is the only class that has a movement ability without needing a target, as well as having 3 different gap closers, dragoon has loads of mobility, and if you think that elusive is bad design cos YOU miss with it, then you just need to get better at dragoon, its called having a skill cieling.

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Yeah at this point the job that's really getting the short end of the stick in terms of movement is Monk, not Dragoon. It has two charges on Shoulder Tackle which doesn't completely fix the problem of needing to use it on cooldown for damage most of the time. We can sit on one charge for a while, but we're still incentivized to get both of those charges off in Riddle of Fire and we don't have anything that's actually DPS free like Shikuchi/Gyoten/Elusive Jump. Dragoon is somewhat similar in that it wants to use Spineshatter and Dragonfire Dive during Lance Charge, but it still has elusive jump 30 seconds as an option that doesn't cost DPS, and Ninja and Samurai both have pretty much flawless movement kits at the moment.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Yeah at this point the job that's really getting the short end of the stick in terms of movement is Monk, not Dragoon. It has two charges on Shoulder Tackle which doesn't completely fix the problem of needing to use it on cooldown for damage most of the time. We can sit on one charge for a while, but we're still incentivized to get both of those charges off in Riddle of Fire and we don't have anything that's actually DPS free like Shikuchi/Gyoten/Elusive Jump. Dragoon is somewhat similar in that it wants to use Spineshatter and Dragonfire Dive during Lance Charge, but it still has elusive jump 30 seconds as an option that doesn't cost DPS, and Ninja and Samurai both have pretty much flawless movement kits at the moment.

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Because of ocd I'd just like a increase to the dot to 26s. Even tho it'll naturally fall off dor a split second I just hate seeing dots drop. But I'm a dot whore. I'd play a job comprised of 80% dots

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Yeah at this point the job that's really getting the short end of the stick in terms of movement is Monk, not Dragoon. It has two charges on Shoulder Tackle which doesn't completely fix the problem of needing to use it on cooldown for damage most of the time. We can sit on one charge for a while, but we're still incentivized to get both of those charges off in Riddle of Fire and we don't have anything that's actually DPS free like Shikuchi/Gyoten/Elusive Jump. Dragoon is somewhat similar in that it wants to use Spineshatter and Dragonfire Dive during Lance Charge, but it still has elusive jump 30 seconds as an option that doesn't cost DPS, and Ninja and Samurai both have pretty much flawless movement kits at the moment.

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Gyoten is not DPS free, though.

And MNK partly makes up for it with six-sided star and, if needed, meditation.

All melee jobs have their pros and cons when it comes to forced downtime, thankfully...we really don't need any more homogenization.

Yeah, sorry Mhilthia, but this is coming off as you not knowing how to play Dragoon well. And that's fine, because neither do I, it's one of my least played jobs, as I'm not a fan of it's rigidity. Chaos Thrust simply isn't a problem, because it lines up perfectly with your rotation, except in the cases where you flub your buttons or delay the next step in the combo. That 24-second duration limes up exactly so that no clipping takes place. There really shouldn't be a problem unless you're stumbling over the exact sequence of the combo.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Gyoten is not DPS free, though.

And MNK partly makes up for it with six-sided star and, if needed, meditation.

All melee jobs have their pros and cons when it comes to forced downtime, thankfully...we really don't need any more homogenization.

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It's Neutral or so Neutral as not to matter then. The kenki cost per point per the actual hit is minimal compared to Shinten to the point where any fraction of a GCD you'll save makes up for the minor inefficiency, and more importantly it's cooldown is so short that you'll almost never have it down when you need it.

SSS and Meditation are more akin to a ranged skill like Enpi that Monk which, yes is forced downtime but that isn't the conversation here, it's mobility.

In the case of Mobility Monk is undeniably the worst, with a low number of gap closers in a minute which are are incentivized to be dumped inside of a buff window, without an *actual* backstep and without any form of free movement.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Making Chaos Thrust last 30s would mean you would clip it every time you tried using it.

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I can agree with most of the rest of this, but... having a longer DoT time is objectively better than having a shorter time, especially when it's being clipped and is therefore not balanced around in "on paper" calculations. It allows for greater downtime mitigation/flexibility and cleave potential.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I can agree with most of the rest of this, but... having a longer DoT time is objectively better than having a shorter time, especially when it's being clipped and is therefore not balanced around in "on paper" calculations. It allows for greater downtime mitigation/flexibility and cleave potential.

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I think it's balanced around the same circumstances as monk's Demolish or paladin's Goring Blade is calculated. As it is right now, with 100% uptime on a boss, you should be reapplying your DoT either as soon as or instants before it falls off, and it's not going out of your way to do so; it's done as a natural step in your combo. If you increase the DoT length, theorycrafters are going to end up twisting the meta in order to get in two other GCDs somewhere so that you can make use of that extra tick or two of your DoT. It's the difference between 1 second left before it falls off and 7 seconds left before it falls off. It gives a pretty good skill ceiling by giving players a marker to say "Hey, really good players will keep this DoT up as much as possible" while not being tragically punishing if it does happen to fall off, simply because you're not going to cause a wipe because Chaos Thrust missed two ticks.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

I think it's balanced around the same circumstances as monk's Demolish or paladin's Goring Blade is calculated. As it is right now, with 100% uptime on a boss, you should be reapplying your DoT either as soon as or instants before it falls off, and it's not going out of your way to do so; it's done as a natural step in your combo. If you increase the DoT length, theorycrafters are going to end up twisting the meta in order to get in two other GCDs somewhere so that you can make use of that extra tick or two of your DoT.

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If that were the case, we would have seen the same done back in HW, when up to 2 ticks would be clipped each time. And would that really be so bad, anyways, if some higher-SkS DRGs fit in an extra Full Thrust combo per CT? Would it break the job for it to optionally be more than just A B A B A B ad nauseum?

Shadow Fang similarly had intentionally excessive duration during SB so that players at typical (read, optimal) Skill Speeds could work in a limited number of clipped casts per SF in order not to clip its tick, giving them options to work around more than just "follow this rigid combo, but... harder?" Demolish has likewise always allowed for rotational deviation over different SkS breakpoints. In ARR, ToD and Fracture together allowed for perfect timing at typical Crit-high Skill Speeds. In HW, high SkS allowed for a further cycle per Demolish at slight delay or to clip it well short of completion. In SB, the same (though with less modular adjustment possible). The same can be said for Shifu and Jinpu in SB; their durations being variably excessive, eventually reaching new rotational allowances, made SkS breakpoints feel meaningful.

Each of those rotations were made more interesting for the choice provided by an "excessive" DoT duration. I don't see why what has already worked for every melee, including DRG itself in ARR and HW, would suddenly not work. Historically, it's likely to improve gameplay. At the worst, it can't hurt it -- instead merely increasing DRG relative uptime in particular fights and improving its cleave in some rare situations.

I dunno, you make a good argument, but I can't agree with it because it just feels like greater homogeneity in the current state of the game by making Dragoon feel a bit more like Monk and vice versa. The whole point of a Dragoon's rotation is its rigidity, which is its greatest strength and weakness. One of the biggest reasons why the DPS in this game feel so good to play compared to tank or healers (with exceptions) is because they each feel unique in their own ways. I think removing that uniqueness for the sake of greater flexibility isn't the right course of action. We'll have to agree to disagree on this point, and it's not really something I want to argue.

OP wants a job that is comfy to use, but this is not a direction any game dev should have choose to follow.

Making everything easy and take thinking away from it will make game boring.
There has to be some inconvenience so you as a DRG player have something to think on instead of having everything perfectly lined up. Do you want a warrior treatment for DRG? I dont think so.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

I dunno, you make a good argument, but I can't agree with it because it just feels like greater homogeneity in the current state of the game by making Dragoon feel a bit more like Monk and vice versa. The whole point of a Dragoon's rotation is its rigidity, which is its greatest strength and weakness. One of the biggest reasons why the DPS in this game feel so good to play compared to tank or healers (with exceptions) is because they each feel unique in their own ways. I think removing that uniqueness for the sake of greater flexibility isn't the right course of action. We'll have to agree to disagree on this point, and it's not really something I want to argue.

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Homogeneity? Because current Dragoon wouldn't lose out on choices Dragoon used to have?

What you're describing is a circumstance of Lance Mastery, not any long-standing part of Dragoon's identity.

ARR and HW DRG were flexible at certain SkS tiers. They weren't flexible in the way Monk was at the time, nor the way NIN was (though most nearly so), nor the way SAM would later arrive; it had its own type of flexibility. It didn't have to be reduced to zero GCD choice as it has now just to have a unique playflow.

Unique limitations without compensating choice-making around those limitations, or the gutting of player choices for gutting's sake, are rarely if ever a good way to create distinction between classes. If it came down to a choice of everyone benefiting from merely having complexity and flexibility, and isolating flexibility and complexity each to one job, or isolating one job each from either, I'd take sooner take homogeneity. And I despise homogeneity.

I am no Pro dragoon by any means.

My Dragoon is only Lv72 almost 73 and I levelled it mostly through Beast Tribes and the occasional Leveling or Trials Roulette, so I am hardly a pro, BUT...

Even I can see that you have several movement skills, and dude, ShB Dragoon seems way more smooth and easier than Stormblood's did. With making that dragon meter easier to manage (it's almost impossible to have it wear off now, and even if it does wear off you can start the timer again anytime you want, as long as you did at least one skill to extend it), it's like... "what's hard about Dragoon?"

Dragoon used to be talked about like it was one of the hardest jobs in the game to play, and now it just seems... easy. The only one I have trouble with now is MNK and trying to remember which rotation to use when. Do I have Leaden Fists up right now? Do I need Twin Snakes this time? Demolish or that other attack? I keep stumbling all over those three, lol.

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Originally Posted by Mhilthia

You all talk about buffing... Do you even play each single job at Square Enix?
The DRG, for istance, is the only melee who cannot count on the use of a off-global cd skill which allows him to fast approach the boss, such as shukichi, gyoten or tackle shoulder.
DRG has got Elusive Jump, yeah... the same skill which kills you if you make 1cm mistake in positioning.
Or maybe Spinshatter Dive, which has 1min of cd for 240 of potency. Why don’t you nerf this useless skill adding 2 stacks of use to it?
What about Chaos Thrust? 24 sec... it expires each time you need to move during DRG rotation.
On the other hand, Disembowel lasts 30 sec and it’s easier to refresh it before it expires. So why don’t you make Chaos last 30 sec, too?
Please, next time try focusing on useful adjustments, not useless ones such as Blood of Dragoon updates.:mad::mad::mad::mad:

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I propose the following fixes:

One: Actually use Elusive Jump on opener, it's seriously, like, you just turn your character away, while targetting the boss. It's not rocket surgery.

Two: Stop pretending Spineshatter Dive doesn't exist

Three: Stop pretending Dragonfire Dive doesn't exist.

Like, you seem to be confused. Dragoon doesn't lack gapclosers. It has the most gap-closers.

3>1

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

I propose the following fixes:

One: Actually use Elusive Jump on opener, it's seriously, like, you just turn your character away, while targetting the boss. It's not rocket surgery.

Two: Stop pretending Spineshatter Dive doesn't exist

Three: Stop pretending Dragonfire Dive doesn't exist.

Like, you seem to be confused. Dragoon doesn't lack gapclosers. It has the most gap-closers.

3>1

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Their problem is that they are trying to save Spineshatter and Dragonfire for in the middle of the rotation, they are likely trying to put Disembowel up, and also that Dragon Blood skill to maximize the DPS that the two dives do, instead of using it as an opener or gap-closer after a phase or something.

I will admit that I fell into this trap at first and then I realized that the time I spent dinking around with using Elusive Jump to open is kinda stupid because then it could be on cooldown when the boss does an AoE, and I should just use Spineshatter and be done with it. The piddly DPS increase is not worth losing several seconds of running up to the boss to start my rotation, and I get to keep my Elusive Jump ready for dodging AoEs instead. I lose a little DPS, but meh. Not enough that I'm worried.

It isn't like I'm doing Ultimate Alexander or something.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Their problem is that they are trying to save Spineshatter and Dragonfire for in the middle of the rotation, they are likely trying to put Disembowel up, and also that Dragon Blood skill to maximize the DPS that the two dives do, instead of using it as an opener or gap-closer after a phase or something.

I will admit that I fell into this trap at first and then I realized that the time I spent dinking around with using Elusive Jump to open is kinda stupid because then it could be on cooldown when the boss does an AoE, and I should just use Spineshatter and be done with it. The piddly DPS increase is not worth losing several seconds of running up to the boss to start my rotation, and I get to keep my Elusive Jump ready for dodging AoEs instead. I lose a little DPS, but meh. Not enough that I'm worried.

It isn't like I'm doing Ultimate Alexander or something.

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I mean Optimal is Optimal, but complaining that DRG magically has to save its gapclosers for the burst window when the reason MNK doesn't is it -can't- due to a lack of gapclosing options, SAM can't because of how its resource works, and the only reason NIN uses its gapcloser that way is because its gapcloser does no damage so no point.... it's missing the point. DRG uses Elusive Jump because it has 3 gapclosing options. allowing them to save two of them for damage during the burst window.

Ya DRG Doesn't have a Gap Closer since it Relies to Heavily on them for Damage, so it uses Elusive Jump. Which for some Strange reason doesn't buff piercing Talon for a disengage option. I'd like to see dragoons skill ceiling raised personally It'd be a lot more fun if Disembowel and Vorpal had a positional. Another thing weird is that Dragoon has to Delay their opening in order to line up with Raid buffs better, Not to Mention Clunky Dragon-Sight.

I Play Samurai too, and They can Afford to since they have a disengage that pays them back in gauge for using it. But most of Dragoon's Up time is very reliant on Elusive jump and sprinting.

I'm pretty sure if you're a good enough player to make it through end game content that you can make it through a fight if you happen to use one of your offensive jumps as a gap closer. Really, how much of a dps loss is ONE skill over the course of a fight?

Besides unless I'm missing something that damage would be made up by any couple random crits that occour.

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Originally Posted by DJMau

I'm pretty sure if you're a good enough player to make it through end game content that you can make it through a fight if you happen to use one of your offensive jumps as a gap closer. Really, how much of a dps loss is ONE skill over the course of a fight?

Besides unless I'm missing something that damage would be made up by any couple random crits that occour.

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I mean you're not wrong, and it hits upon the major problem with the complaint. It's not 'Dragoon doesn't have these buttons' it's 'I want to save these buttons for a different thing so I'm going to pretend they don't exist and do exactly the thing I am asking to do.'

And, I mean, yeah, it is entirely a thing that a Dragoon could elusive jump to avoid a mechanic then spineshatter back in. This is an option they have. It might not be optimal, but it is there and for someone who isn't chasing gold parses, it's a perfectly reasonable thing for them to do.

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Originally Posted by Renkei

Ya DRG Doesn't have a Gap Closer since it Relies to Heavily on them for Damage, so it uses Elusive Jump. Which for some Strange reason doesn't buff piercing Talon for a disengage option.

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Mightn't that be because they want to leave it as equally useful for engaging? Let's face it, it's more often going to be optimal to get your last GCD in at the last possible moment before sprinting out of an AoE, and to then use EJ to engage back in, than to EJ out and Sprint back in.

I'm not saying Piercing Talon doesn't deserve a buff. Enpi is 228 potency base or 428 with Enhanced Enpi (from the Yaten disengage). All the other ranged skills are pathetic by comparison, and DRG's tight CT timer and long rotational string lengths mean that it even further costs and more frequent lock-outs to using its ranged skill than any other melee. SAM > NIN/MNK > DRG, essentially. Meditation needs a scalar buff. Throwing Daggers needs a straight buff and maybe a flexibility buff. Piercing Talon doubtless needs both for it not to be relegated to lucky downtime mitigation and a Eureka pulling skill. But you don't need to -- nor should you -- tie that into Elusive Jump.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Mightn't that be because they want to leave it as equally useful for engaging? Let's face it, it's more often going to be optimal to get your last GCD in at the last possible moment before sprinting out of an AoE, and to then use EJ to engage back in, than to EJ out and Sprint back in.

I'm not saying Piercing Talon doesn't deserve a buff. Enpi is 228 potency base or 428 with Enhanced Enpi (from the Yaten disengage). All the other ranged skills are pathetic by comparison, and DRG's tight CT timer and long rotational string lengths mean that it even further costs and more frequent lock-outs to using its ranged skill than any other melee. SAM > NIN/MNK > DRG, essentially. Meditation needs a scalar buff. Throwing Daggers needs a straight buff and maybe a flexibility buff. Piercing Talon doubtless needs both for it not to be relegated to lucky downtime mitigation and a Eureka pulling skill. But you don't need to -- nor should you -- tie that into Elusive Jump.

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Probably not because i only really use Elusive Jump for engaging back with the boss, rarely do i use it for disengaging, its for sure a skill based gap closer, i just wish they increased dragoons difficulty outside their gap closer - Dragon-sight doesn't count, I'm afraid next patch they are going to get out shined unless they do something about the CT Timer, with all the buffs they are proposing for Ninja and Red Mage they gotta be very careful with balancing red mage looking at the Metadata bard needs a buff, Ninja needs a buff to Disengage damage to help with aDPS, Samurai is fine, Piercing Talon is a waste of a Slot in its current state, As for the other jobs the problem is the disparity between Melee jobs, Honestly i'd rather them just increase the skill ceiling to decrease the disparity The problem is theres jobs that are harder to play that have no reward compared to jobs that are easier to play and have to much reward. (Bard for Example by design should deal more personal damage then a dancer but not 1400 less then MCH all together.), higher risk should come with higher reward, they don't need to homogenize the game people can learn how the master the game and no be excluded from content by putting time into the game and practicing. I just want to see more Positional attacks for precise play added but they keep coming out with Radial bosses and it does make it harder to balance Ranged with that problem.

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Originally Posted by DJMau

I'm pretty sure if you're a good enough player to make it through end game content that you can make it through a fight if you happen to use one of your offensive jumps as a gap closer. Really, how much of a dps loss is ONE skill over the course of a fight?

Besides unless I'm missing something that damage would be made up by any couple random crits that occour.

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Are you suggesting we hold one of our damage dealing gap closers the entire fight... in case we need it to gap close?

Ok so what's your real suggestion, because no dragoon who plays endgame is going to do that.

Honestly since they took off the dive stacks and stun from spineshatter, they should just remove the damage and make it a 30-60s gap closer. They can re-rout a bit of potency to StD to make up for it.

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Originally Posted by DJMau

I'm pretty sure if you're a good enough player to make it through end game content that you can make it through a fight if you happen to use one of your offensive jumps as a gap closer. Really, how much of a dps loss is ONE skill over the course of a fight?

Besides unless I'm missing something that damage would be made up by any couple random crits that occour.

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Holding onto Spineshatter Dive over the course of a ten-twelve minute fight and only using it as a Gap Closer once or twice would be a loss of around 2400 raw potency (IE, an entire Melee LB1) and that’s without considering what they gain from Dragoon’s own buffs, party buffs, or the fact that these skills can themselves crit. That’s more than what random crits on other skills will ever hope to make up.

The incentive on Spineshatter Dive and Shoulder Tackle to be used as damage really undercuts their usefulness as movement tools, even with charges on them to help mitigate that.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Holding onto Spineshatter Dive over the course of a ten-twelve minute fight and only using it as a Gap Closer once or twice would be a loss of around 2400 raw potency (IE, an entire Melee LB1) and that’s without considering what they gain from Dragoon’s own buffs, party buffs, or the fact that these skills can themselves crit. That’s more than what random crits on other skills will ever hope to make up.

The incentive on Spineshatter Dive and Shoulder Tackle to be used as damage really undercuts their usefulness as movement tools, even with charges on them to help mitigate that.

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It's not exactly a loss that large. I dont believe people are saying to hold that SOLELY for a gap closer, more of a situational thing like holding onto it for a couple gcds to close back in, not enough holding to decrease the total number of those cooldowns over a fight, situationally based on whether or not that brief hold would be a gain over potentially losing 1-2 gcds of movement. And holding an ability isn't a loss of that action's potency, you're using other gcds during that period.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

It's not exactly a loss that large. I dont believe people are saying to hold that SOLELY for a gap closer, more of a situational thing like holding onto it for a couple gcds to close back in, not enough holding to decrease the total number of those cooldowns over a fight, situationally based on whether or not that brief hold would be a gain over potentially losing 1-2 gcds of movement. And holding an ability isn't a loss of that action's potency, you're using other gcds during that period.

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That, and 2400 raw potency over a fight is but a smidge of damage compared to the damage output of 8 people over all of that time.

A bladedance barely pokes the last 5% of a boss's HP (even less if we're talking about an 8 man fight). Heck if you try to wait until 10% left before using it to finish him with it, he will likely die before you even get it out or you'll shear the last 1% off. 2400 potency is a drop in the bucket when you got 8 people wailing away on him unless you're talking about a 2400 potency GCD (which we're not, we're talking about 2400 potency over multiple GCDs during the entire fight).

And as the person I just quoted said, you can't even count it as a potency loss because you are doing other attacks during that period of time. Heck, True Thrust is 290 Potency while a Blood+Spineshatter is 320 unless I somehow got the math wrong, Vorpal is 350 and Full is 530.

So just your basic rotation does just as much as, if not more than, Spineshatter with Blood up depending on where you are at in the Rotation at the time.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Holding onto Spineshatter Dive over the course of a ten-twelve minute fight and only using it as a Gap Closer once or twice would be a loss of around 2400 raw potency

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While true, the suggestion is to hold onto it when you know you're going to want to use it. While it's a potency loss to do so, it's a fraction of the loss you're suggesting, given the original problem was an OP pretending DRG had no gapclosers at all.

I mean to be fair, most people end up using their movement skills for shock of shock, damage. Only Ninja due to it having no damage(And is far easier to get away with using).

Dragoon at least has 2 different ways to close the gap so double the chance of syncing up.

Use your dives during the buff windows for dps, if you find yourself needing a gap closer and not having it at the time then hold your dive till then. Harder content has all scripted mechanics so you can time when to use your dives. Also use your elusive jump as a gap closer not a disengage because it is actually slow at moving you backwards so it'll get you clipped by AoEs. Elusive jump is on a short enough CD and together with sprint you'll hardly need to use the dives for actual gap closing.

Personally, I saw what they did to DRG during Stormblood. I knew then and there that I would be switching to SAM for my melee dps needs. I tried to pick it back up a few days ago and it's...a lot. I think I will simply shelve it until I find it enjoyable again. Maybe I'm too used to how simple GNB's rotation/burst window is. I just can't seem to juggle the jumps and manage 3 different buffs/debuffs at once. And honestly? That's okay. I'll leave this to those who can and go about my business. In fairness, I haven't touched it since Stormblood launch, so there's no way in heck I've got a firm grasp of it. But...I have seen enough, and have decided it is no longer for me.

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

Use your dives during the buff windows for dps, if you find yourself needing a gap closer and not having it at the time then hold your dive till then. Harder content has all scripted mechanics so you can time when to use your dives. Also use your elusive jump as a gap closer not a disengage because it is actually slow at moving you backwards so it'll get you clipped by AoEs. Elusive jump is on a short enough CD and together with sprint you'll hardly need to use the dives for actual gap closing.

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To be fair, I'd rather hold a Jump for a few seconds than risk flinging myself the wrong way with with Elusive.

HOWEVER, I also realize this is an opinion born out of experience(lack of it on my part) and possibly controller(I use one as opposed to keyboard). So I also understand this is no way a hard rule.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

To be fair, I'd rather hold a Jump for a few seconds than risk flinging myself the wrong way with with Elusive.

HOWEVER, I also realize this is an opinion born out of experience(lack of it on my part) and possibly controller(I use one as opposed to keyboard). So I also understand this is no way a hard rule.

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Give it some practice on a dummy. I also use controller and aiming disengage type moves aren't too bad after you play with it for a couple minutes.

I just want them to combine Either Lance charge and Litany, Or Dragon-eye with Lance Change. the combo delaying 1 step to be optimal is so awkward or let us have jump and high jump, it would work and controller users have enough room for it.

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Originally Posted by Renkei

I just want them to combine Either Lance charge and Litany, Or Dragon-eye with Lance Change. the combo delaying 1 step to be optimal is so awkward or let us have jump and high jump, it would work and controller users have enough room for it.

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If the issue is room, why not just combine the more obvious bloat... like Mirage being a separate button from the skills that unlock it, or BotD still being a button of its own when it's effectively a passive that one can no longer lose?

I do think Dragon Eye is pretty lackluster, but combine too much where it's not mere bloat and you're likely just going to end up with Monk syndrome, what would have been 3 buffing oGCDs reduced to 1, 5 offensive oGCDs reduced to 2, etc.

Yeah, I have no clue why they never just made it so after you jumped, jump turns into Mirage Dive, i guess it's because it makes the timer confusing i am sure they tried it though Yeah it's an Aura you have to pay attention to it It's not difficult to keep up though but its better then being able to cast it off (like in the past), but yes its difficult to use dragoon doesn't have a way to hold onto portions of combos though, when they extended the time you can hold an combo attack for it didn't extend or apply to Wheeling/Fang and now Raiden.

What I've always wondered is why they didn't just merge Litany with Dragon-eye or kept Litany at what it was before and just removed Dragon-Sight all together, Monk is still ahead of Dragoon though, MY issue is there is so much Clipping going on that you can't do anything about and then they decide to give you an ability like Dragon-sight to make it feel even stupider then it already is, I never saw any reason for them to get rid of "Power Surge" but to reduce Dragoons personal damage, but these changes were reverted after they got rid of double ranged being over-powered.... I don't see how Power Surge was button bloat, but reducing Blood for Blood into "Lance Change" from Enhanced Blood for Blood 30% Damage +15% Damage Taken, then the dps window being changed from 80 seconds to 90 seconds, Life-surge Strangely only including Critical, Not to Mention that Dragoon is restricted to having to use Critical based sets due to the linear of equipment which just gets worse because there is no other class to share equipment with. I don't see what's wrong with increased risk to reward, instead they seem to be adding bloat instead of adding flavor to classes.

Right now i have to use 2 abilities to get 25% Damage, and i am plagued with Abilities that have 0.75 seconds of Action Lock, I just am waiting for the next expansion on the inside already for them to rework skill-speed so it works with all abilities so i can get out of this clipping hell hole of stacking everything but skill-speed and hoping they don't force some more down my throat....