The Future of the "Ranged" Role - Feedback for 5.1 Onward.

Given the backlash that has been shown in regards to the Ranged Role due to SMN's upbringing this patch, we need to take a look at what's wrong with the role as well as look at the other applicable roles and understand why they're more desirable as a job than a Physical Ranged Job.

The Physical Ranged Role has generally been an issue since 5.05 due to the discrepancy in DPS and utility, since SE wanted to attempt to reduce the amount of raid synergies available; however, the new issue is that SE has severely imbalanced their jobs with the changes and QoL they did in Patch 5.1. By reducing BRD's DoTs, they effectively neutered its DPS since a majority of its damage comes from those DoTs being up 100% of the time with Snapshotting buffs being very important to BRD in the long-run with Iron Jaws. Still, they have issues with Apex Arrow, the capstone AoE skill that's focused on Repertoire gain, mainly because it's a very, very disappointing capstone that doesn't have a good payoff at 100 gauge. In the time it takes the gauge to charge, you would already have done way over the potency you would've gotten from Apex Arrow(even Refulgent does AT LEAST OVER HALF). If they had just about doubled or made Apex Arrow 1,000 potency with falloff damage, it would've placed BRD in a better spot in 5.05.

For the likes of DNC and MCH, the potency increases were helpful, but barely did much at all since the DPS Gap is still high enough to where it's only the 1% Damage that's just keeping the entire Ranged role in raid. Given that Yoshida said that player skill was to be valued over jobs, this is not being upheld due to the arguments of both the substantial DPS, utility, and buffs SMN brings to the raid. Though, this isn't necessarily about SMN; we need to take a look back at 5.05 and look at the DPS Gaps.

Everyone that was a Ranged DPS or Caster was trying to figure out why the hell BLM got TWO spots instead of just one; the reason why? It was because its damage went through the roof in Shadowbringers and actually got to become an actual selfish DPS like it's supposed to be. The downside? The damage difference was too high for both the Caster and Ranged Roles. We're talking at least 1,000-2,000 rDPS just because BLM has the best aDPS.

The other reason why Ranged DPS is so low is supposedly because of "utility tax". Let's check the utility count shall we?

MCH - 1; Tactician.
BRD - 2; Nature's Minne and Troubadour, plus BRD Song Buffs.
DNC - FIVE - Standard/Tech Step(5% Damage), Curing Waltz, Shield Samba, Improvisation(+10% Healing)

MCH is the strongest aDPS in the Ranged role while DNC is the best rDPS in the role, which is justified, but if you check the numbers, All Ranged are at the bottom in terms of rDPS. Why is this?

Taking data from top rDPS contributions in Voidwalker since it's the dummy fight:

Casters
BLM: 17,485
SMN: 16,485
RDM: 15,871

Ranged
MCH: 14,990
BRD: 14,851
DNC: 15,700

The difference between the Ranged and Casters is very large mainly because of utility. RDM suffers from this issue as well due to how Raise is basically part of its 'utility', when it barely gets used in speedruns; what's worse, their buff is heavily comp dependent on them being the only Caster. In MCH's case, they just don't do enough damage to be able to be considered except when only thinking about that "1% Role Buff".

In fact, MCH should be doing close to around what both DRG and MNK are pulling right now given it's a rather selfish DPS that only uses Tactician instead of being near the bottom. BRD suffers from SE being scared we're going to wind up with a Heavensward comp again or with it dominating the Ranged Role(which in reality, they never will given DNC is here with a lot of rDPS). DNC suffers only because its rDPS isn't high enough to compete with the likes of a caster like SMN, even though it feels wholly balanced in its current form(just needs QoL tweaks on Improvisation).

We still have a gap of at least 1,000 rDPS from both BRD and MCH respectively to 2/3rds of the Caster Role. Another thought is the free mobility tax on top of the utility tax. Being able to move during mechanics and still maintain rotation has been a crux of the Ranged role since ARR and excluding HW, but the balance becomes an issue when a job(SMN, in this case) receives proper QoL for being a very busy caster(almost NIN busy in 5.05) and damage potency buffs on top of it just because Egi Assault becomes GCD.

With SMN being able to Egi Assault for movement now, it heavily chips into the Ranged Role's niche of being mobile for just about anything due to those two Spells having two charges on a recast of 30s. If SMN has large outputs in damage yet the MCH doesn't have as much, how is a decent balance to be achieved? This is a mistake yet again which is extremely familiar from 4.1 when they buffed SMN too much that it kicked BLM out of parties; except this time it's getting ready to lock out an entire role.


If they're to fix this, they need to consider the following changes:

- Reverting BRD back to its original DoT potency, and improving Apex Arrow's payoff for charge time potency(weak atm).

- Increasing MCH's DPS so it can be a viable choice when pitted against a Caster like SMN(as well as being within a decent range of BRD) along with QoL fixes to ping reliance when it comes to Heat Blast during Hyperdrive for easier performance.

- Adjusting RDM's raid buff to where it cancontribute meaningfully regardless of comp.(Not Ranged, I know, but it's been an issue since Stormblood)

- Fixing DNC's Improvisation for consistent Esprit Gains akin to SAM's Meditate.

That's all I have for feedback. I'm open for discussion and understanding.

I actually agree with most of your sentiment, but don't use E2S to cement your argument.
Using E2S actually discredits it- it's an easy dummy fight with little movement where you can keep near perfect uptime. This "masks" one of ranged dps' biggest advantages- their mobility and ability to keep uptime in movement-heavy mechanics/mechanics that force you to disengage.
Use Titan for the comparison and the results are valid.

I think that if SE wants to keep this idea of "support tax" they should make the party buff 5% to guarantee that bringing a ranged is better overall for rdps. This also lets them really give them unusual support tools (defensive or otherwise) rather than strictly offensive support.

I think you should not used top percentile performance or E2S but rather a mix of multiple fights due to how these jobs manage multiple target or downtime.
E3S and E4S makes the BLM drop due to mobility needed and that's where SMN shines.
Also use 95th percentile, that's basically the "Casual raid top performance" where anyone who knows his job can make a good performance with BiS gear.

I'd even push a bit and consider to use UWU numbers since it forces you to move many times for mechanics. But even there you can see the ranged numbers really low, even if their kit aren't complete at lv70.

Mobility is obviously not the argument anymore since SMN is pretty mobile (BLM is still mobile but the community seems to think the opposite).

Ranged are still based on Stormblood balance but back in Stormblood there was so many utility and boost to ranged DPS. But there's no piercing debuff anymore, no more need for refresh and no more of our extremely strong mitigation. Dismantle, Palisade, Troubadour, Foe's Requiem, Hypercharge, Refresh... Those don't exist anymore, or are reworked.

MCH is the strongest of the three but still lags 1k behind SMN, BLM, MNK and SAM. And BRD lags 500 DPS behind MCH.
If they instead nerfed the strongest job and buffed the lower one with care, we would not be in this unbalanced mess. Guess we should be happy that the ranged role is not dead, only crippled?

I really feel for machinists tbh, they bring the exact same amount of utility as a black mage (tactician == addle), but do 2000-3000 dps less simply by virtue of being a 'ranged'. How nice.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

I really feel for machinists tbh, they bring the exact same amount of utility as a black mage (tactician == addle), but do 2000-3000 dps less simply by virtue of being a 'ranged'. How nice.

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I understand SEs design philosophy behind this, class with easy 100% uptime should be less than one with high probability of losing it. However in practice the fights are not designed in a way that means classes wont have near 100% uptime anyway, so range just end up gimped for no reason, and theres only 2 ways to fix this, force downtime on melees and casters through mechanics , (near impossible because then smn would just be king) or buff ranged

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

I actually agree with most of your sentiment, but don't use E2S to cement your argument.
Using E2S actually discredits it- it's an easy dummy fight with little movement where you can keep near perfect uptime. This "masks" one of ranged dps' biggest advantages- their mobility and ability to keep uptime in movement-heavy mechanics/mechanics that force you to disengage.
Use Titan for the comparison and the results are valid.

I think that if SE wants to keep this idea of "support tax" they should make the party buff 5% to guarantee that bringing a ranged is better overall for rdps. This also lets them really give them unusual support tools (defensive or otherwise) rather than strictly offensive support.

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I’ll reconsider and look at the metrics for Titan instead, then. I’ll update the OP when I get home.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

I understand SEs design philosophy behind this, class with easy 100% uptime should be less than one with high probability of losing it. However in practice the fights are not designed in a way that means classes wont have near 100% uptime anyway, so range just end up gimped for no reason, and theres only 2 ways to fix this, force downtime on melees and casters through mechanics , (near impossible because then smn would just be king) or buff ranged

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I’d say buffed Ranged. Their baseline is so bad you can only consider them because of the 1% Role Buff. That, and Machinists have a more complex rotation than BLM.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

I understand SEs design philosophy behind this, class with easy 100% uptime should be less than one with high probability of losing it. However in practice the fights are not designed in a way that means classes wont have near 100% uptime anyway, so range just end up gimped for no reason, and theres only 2 ways to fix this, force downtime on melees and casters through mechanics , (near impossible because then smn would just be king) or buff ranged

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To be fair it kind of happens already, at 75th Titan percentile MCH (the strongest ranged) is ~800 (or 6%) behind the best dps on that percentile, while on 99th it's ~1,2k (or 8%) behind, meaning it does comparatively better on less optimized play, the problem is that again the tax is just too high, if at best possible play the ranged role was like 1 or 2% behind it'd be fair, not ~10% behind.

Ok, so in addition to what I said in OP as recommended by @Galvuu, here’s the metrics we have for Titan(can’t edit OP on mobile):

Casters
BLM: 16,062
SMN: 15,470
RDM: 14,984

Ranged
MCH: 14,336
BRD: 13,923
DNC: 14,466

We’re still miles away from Casters in this highly mobile fight.Why is that?

Triplecast, Swiftcast, and Xenoglossy(and any Procs included for BLM) give plenty of mobility for BLM, albeit Aetherial Manipulation use is rather heavy.

SMN on the other hand does not give a damn because of the Egi Assaults as said in the OP before discussion. Let alone, it has Ruin IV to act as a mobility tool, essentially making it nearly almost no downtime because of movement for SMN.

For RDM though, they seem balanced for Titan in particular since you’re having to stop every other cast to hardcast.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Ok, so in addition to what I said in OP as recommended by @Galvuu, here’s the metrics we have for Titan(can’t edit OP on mobile):

Casters
BLM: 16,062
SMN: 15,470
RDM: 14,984

Ranged
MCH: 14,336
BRD: 13,923
DNC: 14,466

We’re still miles away from Casters in this highly mobile fight.Why is that?

Triplecast, Swiftcast, and Xenoglossy(and any Procs included for BLM) give plenty of mobility for BLM, albeit Aetherial Manipulation use is rather heavy.

SMN on the other hand does not give a damn because of the Egi Assaults as said in the OP before discussion. Let alone, it has Ruin IV to act as a mobility tool, essentially making it nearly almost no downtime because of movement for SMN.

For RDM though, they seem balanced for Titan in particular since you’re having to stop every other cast to hardcast.

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well i would disagree on rdm dmg being balanced compared to the ranged on titan by virtue of them having a rezz which while i in no way think should be taxed as heavily as it was before patch indeed has value, in all honesty a lot more value than any support the physical ranged offer, also, redmages can allready get by quite well as far as movement is concerned , in that regard i really don't see the need for them to be above the physical, i believe "having a somewhat harder time moving" is a fair tradeoff for "can rezz and cure in a pinch" . mind you you really shouldn't use Max parses in particular, 95% is a way better metric by the fact alone that max basically is the one try where even the most immobile caster simply didn't have to move as mechanics aligned as favorible as possible, potentially even artificially guided by the group. (aside from some other points, but that ones basically a given while looking at max)

with that being said, mind you thats just my opinion but
at 95% (current patch only) redmage has a 287~ dps lead on mch and is still 250 below the weakest melee if square would buff redmage by another 150~ dps as i believe the potential to chain rezz indeed still gets overvalued by them (it is awesome for progression, thats without a question, but no amount of damage nerfing will change that, they could literally make redmage deal 5k dps and hardcore progression raiders would still use it to learn the fights before switching to smn or blm) and would bring up the physical ranged to the same level as redmage balance may not be perfect but at least be way better than what we have now, samurai at 95% in this scenario would still have a 600 dps lead on the physical ranged but anymore could hurt the melees as is, so in my opinion that would be the point where the next step would be to look for a way to get the melees a bit closer together and maybe bring summoner down like 100 dps or so

It’s hard to see where 95% is Since the site doesn’t really show that on Ranking, but generally Raise only has value when you’re progressing. Being able to chain Rez helps speed up prog, but in clear runs that utility sees very little if not any use due to the condition someone must have died.

The worst of it is that to keep RDM from being devalued any further by damage, they need to just get rid of Raise on Casters. Sure it’s good for prog, but SMN literally outshines it in this regard outside of mass rezzing(which is already a pain when RDM has to do this while Healers are keeping Tanks up). Reworking their raid buff to not decay and actually be a more baseline buff akin to Devotion would work wonders in increasing RDM’s rDPS.

As for SMN needing a DPS drop, they need to revert the DoT potencies on Bio and Miasma, as well as reduce Garuda’s DoT by a couple ticks or by 10 potency to keep SMN from stepping on people’s toes since their pet damage increased this patch with Egi Assault. The other option is to reduce Ruin IV potency by 20, given that spell in particular(proc’d by Egi Assault) is 300 potency from 260 and do a check on Egi Assault by either making it single charge or reducing its potency slightly for 2 Charges.

Melee as they are now though seem to be balanced just fine around each other, but we still have to do a check on utility so that they’re balanced. When comparing Melee to Ranged, we have to attribute potential downtime that’s forced by fight design, since there usually is a form of it in almost every raid. That’s how the difference is supposed to be since Ranged have full uptime when dealing with an AoE whereas Melee have to disengage from the boss. Having a ~500-700 DPS difference between Melee and Ranged would be fine I’d imagine, but it might not be depending.

Now I have a more pressing question: How do we fix the DPS that are -1000 from the higher Damage Jobs? Bringing them up would be ok by potency, but then you risk powercreep. Maybe adjusting buff utility to compensate(as in increased damage buffs, longer duration, etc.)?

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

It’s hard to see where 95% is Since the site doesn’t really show that on Ranking, but generally Raise only has value when you’re progressing. Being able to chain Rez helps speed up prog, but in clear runs that utility sees very little if not any use due to the condition someone must have died.

The worst of it is that to keep RDM from being devalued any further by damage, they need to just get rid of Raise on Casters. Sure it’s good for prog, but SMN literally outshines it in this regard outside of mass rezzing(which is already a pain when RDM has to do this while Healers are keeping Tanks up). Reworking their raid buff to not decay and actually be a more baseline buff akin to Devotion would work wonders in increasing RDM’s rDPS.

As for SMN needing a DPS drop, they need to revert the DoT potencies on Bio and Miasma, as well as reduce Garuda’s DoT by a couple ticks or by 10 potency to keep SMN from stepping on people’s toes since their pet damage increased this patch with Egi Assault. The other option is to reduce Ruin IV potency by 20, given that spell in particular(proc’d by Egi Assault) is 300 potency from 260 and do a check on Egi Assault by either making it single charge or reducing its potency slightly for 2 Charges.

Melee as they are now though seem to be balanced just fine around each other, but we still have to do a check on utility so that they’re balanced. When comparing Melee to Ranged, we have to attribute potential downtime that’s forced by fight design, since there usually is a form of it in almost every raid. That’s how the difference is supposed to be since Ranged have full uptime when dealing with an AoE whereas Melee have to disengage from the boss. Having a ~500-700 DPS difference between Melee and Ranged would be fine I’d imagine, but it might not be depending.

Now I have a more pressing question: How do we fix the DPS that are -1000 from the higher Damage Jobs? Bringing them up would be ok by potency, but then you risk powercreep. Maybe adjusting buff utility to compensate(as in increased damage buffs, longer duration, etc.)?

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you can quite easily see where 95% is, just look at the statistics page (the one with the bars, don't know which one that was by name, fflogs is down again...) and set the "percentile" to 95%, also set it to patch 5.1 since otherwise it gets muddled with too much stuff thats pre patch and it literally tells you for the last 2 weeks (or every day since patch dropped in our case) exactly on point just what a 95% of any given class did, yes, thats "only" 95% for the last two weeks, but as gear generally goes up (well not anymore) last 2 weeks are a pretty good metric still, definitely better than max where even the best of the best still have their god run be 300 dps higher then everything else they ever did.

also about comparing melee to ranged looking at potential downtime, thats exactly the point, WITH downtime with what i proposed still literally every melee and caster sans redmage would be above the physical ranged at the absolute top (and probably slightly below in the 75->down range), that way the whole "mobility" has an actual value, being better at lower percentiles in this case while at the absolute top melees and casters would still get a leg up.

about the fact that rezz is not really that great outside of progression i agree, its still the most usefull utility the game offers though and really, movement as redmage isn't hard, more slightly inconvinient so i stand by "having a bit harder time moving is a fair 'rezz tax" when comparing physicals to rdm. (and yes, i mained rdm for a time) you also have to see that no matter what, it does need to have at least some tax, if redmage being just 300 above physicals would be considered fair (and the example that was given saw redmage ahead by 400) than blm would by default have to be a good 600, rather 700 above them which than aswell goes for samurai which than....

and yes, the melees in and on themselves are pretty well balanced, which was mostly my point, "fixing" them is not a priority , but if we reached the point where the physical ranged where 600 from the top in an "average movement fight" (which really is all titan is for a melee, its definitely harder than the other turns in eden but its not ultra high movement most of the time) thats when getting the gap between the melees smaller would take priority in my opinion, because getting them any higher would indeed put them above the melees which they shouldn't be (at 95, being above the melees at 75 and basically equal to the melees at 95% (you gotta see that the weakest melee is still 500 dps below sam)i say is perfectly fair game as this is the point one can reach through skill instead of simply luck (in a "didn't have to do any mechanics way)

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

I think that if SE wants to keep this idea of "support tax" they should make the party buff 5% to guarantee that bringing a ranged is better overall for rdps. This also lets them really give them unusual support tools (defensive or otherwise) rather than strictly offensive support.

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I'm a bit iffy on this because it only reinforces the Range exist in parties not because their respective roles are valued but SE essentially saying, "You're taking a Range DPS, and you're going to like it!" That said, if they had more unique support aspects beyond damage. Maybe that would make up for it.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I'm a bit iffy on this because it only reinforces the Range exist in parties not because their respective roles are valued but SE essentially saying, "You're taking a Range DPS, and you're going to like it!" That said, if they had more unique support aspects beyond damage. Maybe that would make up for it.

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I mean, the goal of a raw dps buff is the same. It's to make it so that taking a ranged is the best choice. And that's ok, all I meant was that if we want to force one of each role being present, we could go all the way and get creative with it.
I actually miss the old ARR days (and even Gordias/Midas) where you needed silences/slows/binds/etc.
We got rid of that type of utility to not force jobs on comps- since that basically meant you needed some configurations for certain fights- but if we want to, in an ideal world, enforce the presence of every role, this could be an avenue to bring that back.
If every melee has a bind/stun, every ranged a bind and every caster a slow/silence, we can work those things back into the fights.

Ofc you can argue (correctly) that maybe we should not strive to make the presence of every role mandatory- that fights should be clear-able with 4x melee or whatever. In that case, my idea falls flat, but that 1% seems to suggest SE would wish for every dps subrole to be represented.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

I mean, the goal of a raw dps buff is the same. It's to make it so that taking a ranged is the best choice. And that's ok, all I meant was that if we want to force one of each role being present, we could go all the way and get creative with it.
I actually miss the old ARR days (and even Gordias/Midas) where you needed silences/slows/binds/etc.
We got rid of that type of utility to not force jobs on comps- since that basically meant you needed some configurations for certain fights- but if we want to, in an ideal world, enforce the presence of every role, this could be an avenue to bring that back.
If every melee has a bind/stun, every ranged a bind and every caster a slow/silence, we can work those things back into the fights.

Ofc you can argue (correctly) that maybe we should not strive to make the presence of every role mandatory- that fights should be clear-able with 4x melee or whatever. In that case, my idea falls flat, but that 1% seems to suggest SE would wish for every dps subrole to be represented.

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the problem, and why maybe the goal but not the effect of a raw dps buff is the same is that it simply feels bad.

for all their "simplicity" or whatever you want to call it literally no one takes a ranged with them because they are usefull, i mentioned in another thread i clear eden through party finder, honest to heart i'm telling you that were it not for the 1% buff i would exclude myself from partys, like no i would reroll or whatever, but stupid as it may sound even I dont want a ranged in my group and would rather run double caster if i had leveled and geared one

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

the problem, and why maybe the goal but not the effect of a raw dps buff is the same is that it simply feels bad.

for all their "simplicity" or whatever you want to call it literally no one takes a ranged with them because they are usefull, i mentioned in another thread i clear eden through party finder, honest to heart i'm telling you that where it not for the 1% buff i would exclude myself from partys, like no i would reroll or whatever, but stupid as it may sound even I dont want a ranged in my group and would rather run double caster if i had leveled and geared one

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It's not optimal to replace the ranged player with a caster/melee though. Not right now, and it wasn't in 5.0 either.
I understand the frustration, and I do think the role is underpowered, but we're not at a point where it's a good idea to lock them out on any metric (not rdps, not safety, not utility).

And I was just musing about it. It wouldn't be too bad to double down on the support aspect and expect every group to run one (and design fights with their support in mind).

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

It's not optimal to replace the ranged player with a caster/melee though. Not right now, and it wasn't in 5.0 either.
I understand the frustration, and I do think the role is underpowered, but we're not at a point where it's a good idea to lock them out on any metric (not rdps, not safety, not utility).

And I was just musing about it. It wouldn't be too bad to double down on the support aspect and expect every group to run one (and design fights with their support in mind).

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switching out myself (bard) on levi for a redmage of equal skill and gear would actually end up at roughly the same dps, maybe a loss of 50 dps and the redmage would bring a rezz with him, taking a blackmage at that level would actually push the group by around 200 dps and lets not even talk about summoner, yes, it would be mathematically optimal to replace me with a second caster (75 percentile)

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

I mean, the goal of a raw dps buff is the same. It's to make it so that taking a ranged is the best choice. And that's ok, all I meant was that if we want to force one of each role being present, we could go all the way and get creative with it.
I actually miss the old ARR days (and even Gordias/Midas) where you needed silences/slows/binds/etc.
We got rid of that type of utility to not force jobs on comps- since that basically meant you needed some configurations for certain fights- but if we want to, in an ideal world, enforce the presence of every role, this could be an avenue to bring that back.
If every melee has a bind/stun, every ranged a bind and every caster a slow/silence, we can work those things back into the fights.

Ofc you can argue (correctly) that maybe we should not strive to make the presence of every role mandatory- that fights should be clear-able with 4x melee or whatever. In that case, my idea falls flat, but that 1% seems to suggest SE would wish for every dps subrole to be represented.

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Striving to make one of each role the standard is the healthiest solution to balance problems. It is easier to balance utility across all dps classes to make each role viable and desirable than it is to balance damage potencies across the entire dps spectrum.

Consider a world in which all jobs have the same utility, thus you could take any composition you wanted into a fight, such as your example of four melee. Would this community that champions "dps is king" do anything other than 1) Take the four highest damaging classes (even with a reasonably small variance between top and bottom) or 2) Take the four easiest to play classes to avoid any problems that the encounter might create for a certain job? No, this community would certainly take the path of least resistance.

Blocking off utility balance and damage balance by role and making each role desirable in a raid means that the fourth raid spot can be dictated by group choice of whichever role makes sense for the group's skill set and the encounter. This does come with the requirement that the roles not become too disjointed by the variance in damage between them, because we want to make it so that the "dps is king" mindset doesn't take over and demand that fourth spot be damage over utility.

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Originally Posted by ShadowNyx3

Striving to make one of each role the standard is the healthiest solution to balance problems. It is easier to balance utility across all dps classes to make each role viable and desirable than it is to balance damage potencies across the entire dps spectrum.

Consider a world in which all jobs have the same utility, thus you could take any composition you wanted into a fight, such as your example of four melee. Would this community that champions "dps is king" do anything other than 1) Take the four highest damaging classes (even with a reasonably small variance between top and bottom) or 2) Take the four easiest to play classes to avoid any problems that the encounter might create for a certain job? No, this community would certainly take the path of least resistance.

Blocking off utility balance and damage balance by role and making each role desirable in a raid means that the fourth raid spot can be dictated by group choice of whichever role makes sense for the group's skill set and the encounter. This does come with the requirement that the roles not become too disjointed by the variance in damage between them, because we want to make it so that the "dps is king" mindset doesn't take over and demand that fourth spot be damage over utility.

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That’s kinda how it’s being played right now. SMN has the utility and damage output to outdo the Ranged by at least 1,000 rDPS on most fights. They even have Devotion and Phoenix’s 700 total potency Regen to back up their reason being there instead of a Ranged. SMN simply is too strong right now due to the utilities they bring vs. a mitigation(check the SMN complaint thread for the discussion I had with @Akiudo).

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

That’s kinda how it’s being played right now. SMN has the utility and damage output to outdo the Ranged by at least 1,000 rDPS on most fights. They even have Devotion and Phoenix’s 700 total potency Regen to back up their reason being there instead of a Ranged. SMN simply is too strong right now due to the utilities they bring vs. a mitigation(check the SMN complaint thread for the discussion I had with @Akiudo).

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Summoner or Red Mage would already have a spot for progression raiding because of the value of raise. That is absolutely nothing new. You are trying to inflate this issue by bringing up superlatives like Everlasting Flight and misunderstanding that Devotion is anything more than just a party damage buff that is already factored into raid dps. Additionally, in your OP you try to say that Summoner's mobility is infringing upon the Ranged "niche" of having full mobility which is both false and completely irrelevant.

You focus on Summoner because it was buffed the most, when in reality it's simply that the Ranged role was not buffed enough while both Summoner and Red Mage were boosted. If you run the risk of losing your spot in progression raid comp, it would be because the Ranged role's damage contribution (in the form of their raid damage and party bonus) along with their utility is seen as significantly worse than just bringing a second Raise caster or any combination of two Melee and a Black Mage with one Raise Caster.

The simple matter of fact is that the Ranged role lost their MP management utility and has not received adequate compensation in the form of damage and additional utility to compete with Melee and Casters. The MP management is the most egregious of the two in my opinion because it was legitimately mandatory unlike Raise which has never been required, just so useful that it would be a detriment not to have it available. That leaves us with only one role utility that clearly shines above the rest that takes the full brunt of these balance discussions.

Everlasting shouldnt be counted that much as utility, its nice to have regen but your healer will and should probably heal you up before the tick do anything worth it, it'll only save you a run once in a billion (hey, remeber when it come out people say its just a flavour skill and now because SMN get strong they say its a utility... for real?), as for devotion and sfuff people need to remember they are looking at rDPS now instead the old just dps, which mean all utility is already taken into account... i believe while pure dps should be top in adps they should never be top in rdps... why bring utility when pure is top in rdps!?

Put that aside ranged and rdm is kinda weak compared to the other right now however dancer and bard have a percentage base buff almost the entire fight which should raise more as IL is increased, which is why SE kinda scared to give them big buff ... i think... CMIIW...

But yeah they could get a few hundred buff

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Originally Posted by ShadowNyx3

You are trying to inflate this issue by bringing up superlatives like Everlasting Flight and misunderstanding that Devotion is anything more than just a party damage buff that is already factored into raid dps. Additionally, in your OP you try to say that Summoner's mobility is infringing upon the Ranged "niche" of having full mobility which is both false and completely irrelevant.

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Then mayhap you should explain as to how it does not? Because having 2 Egi Assaults which has 2 Charges on a 30s CD along with Ruin IV being tied to it, how would a SMN not have full mobility? DWT already allows this in heavy movement phases where needed, and if SMN has Ruin IVs to burn then they can use those as well to move. With such a low Cooldown and the current fight design, SMN can move just about as much as any of the Ranged even when playing optimally.

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Originally Posted by ShadowNyx3

You focus on Summoner because it was buffed the most, when in reality it’s simply that the Ranged role was not buffed enough while both Summoner and Red Mage we’re boosted.

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I only was making a comparison to what the role itself is having to compete with. I’m not calling for nerfs, and Hell in my first paragraph I mention our problems as a Ranged which, as you said, were not buffed enough to compete with the Caster role which was recently buffed.

As for the removal of Refresh, it was because it was a vital raid synergy to any group because it allowed them to negate the punishment of deaths in the party for Healers; now, you can easily see how much of a toll it takes on their MP(24% a Raise). Even if they weren’t compensated for said resource, it’s better it’s gone because it also teaches Healers how to manage their MP better.

Aside from that, the best they can do is up the potencies or increase the raid buffs provided by DNC/BRD. The problem that SE fears is that we’ll return to Heavensward meta where Ranged is dominant over Casters, or one Ranged dominates a spot for the entirety of an expansion(Stormblood BRD). Potencies just feel to be a better answer for now until we see where the powercreep lies, because we’ve already seen it with MNK/DRG in 5.0/5.05. Ultimate will be a good judge of what jobs have the most difficulty dealing with the checks involved.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

Put that aside ranged and rdm is kinda weak compared to the other right now however dancer and bard have a percentage base buff almost the entire fight which should raise more as IL is increased, which is why SE kinda scared to give them big buff ... i think... CMIIW...

But yeah they could get a few hundred buff

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That would only scale with BRD. DNC is Pure Damage increase from Tech Step and Standard(both are 5% Damage buffs).

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

That would only scale with BRD. DNC is Pure Damage increase from Tech Step and Standard(both are 5% Damage buffs).

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furthermore only 1/3 of bard buffs scale exponentially and considering the way it is set up pretty clearly shows that the intent is for all 3 buffs to average out at 1% . it would need ludicrous amounts of crit for the imbalance to get even halfway as bad as it is right now, and really, in that case just nerf bard slightly when that happens, you cant purposefully keep a class underpowered for a year for fear it may overperform when everyone has 60 extra itemlevels

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

I mean, the goal of a raw dps buff is the same. It's to make it so that taking a ranged is the best choice. And that's ok, all I meant was that if we want to force one of each role being present, we could go all the way and get creative with it.
I actually miss the old ARR days (and even Gordias/Midas) where you needed silences/slows/binds/etc.
We got rid of that type of utility to not force jobs on comps- since that basically meant you needed some configurations for certain fights- but if we want to, in an ideal world, enforce the presence of every role, this could be an avenue to bring that back.
If every melee has a bind/stun, every ranged a bind and every caster a slow/silence, we can work those things back into the fights.

Ofc you can argue (correctly) that maybe we should not strive to make the presence of every role mandatory- that fights should be clear-able with 4x melee or whatever. In that case, my idea falls flat, but that 1% seems to suggest SE would wish for every dps subrole to be represented.

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Halicarnassus had a required silence in O3S. I distinctly remember because PUGs sucked and I had to silence that more than once on my MNK back when AotD had a silence. It wasn't fun and honestly, I wouldn't bring that back unless all CC was made available t all jobs to make everyone equally responsible for a mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

Put that aside ranged and rdm is kinda weak compared to the other right now however dancer and bard have a percentage base buff almost the entire fight which should raise more as IL is increased, which is why SE kinda scared to give them big buff ... i think... CMIIW...

But yeah they could get a few hundred buff

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I greatly prefer SE to remain cautious with touching DNC. The larger the buff is.. the bigger the potential for a nerf in other areas. DNC looks solid to those who don't play it, but frankly it is fragile. I would've liked potency increases to windmill and bloodshower but then they might add that silly "deals 50% less to everything else" nerf. Of course I would like to do more than the projected 13-14k DPS the job is capable of doing, but if more means nerfs, then no.

As for SF/TF - It really bugs me that DNC is thrown into discussions like this because of those two skills. Like people are wishing for it to go away so DNC becomes nothing, and it's barely holding on as it is.

I don't know what else they can do for BRD. They've been back and forth with this job for years. I was there for BRD 2.0, and 3.0. Then SE started "experimenting" with it and we all know how that went before they apparently got it right. I also feel like SE cannot do something for job, without also doing something to another and in a debilitating way, this further reinforces my feelings on just accepting "baby buffs".

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Then mayhap you should explain as to how it does not? Because having 2 Egi Assaults which has 2 Charges on a 30s CD along with Ruin IV being tied to it, how would a SMN not have full mobility? DWT already allows this in heavy movement phases where needed, and if SMN has Ruin IVs to burn then they can use those as well to move. With such a low Cooldown and the current fight design, SMN can move just about as much as any of the Ranged even when playing optimally.

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For a caster to maximize dps they have to balance their available uses of instant casts for both movement and weaving off-global cooldowns. Summoner has been relieved of the 5.0 state where Ruin IV usage was always a net loss (where there were more offgcds to weave than available instants) but even with additional Ruin IV casts, there is still a limit on how many instants are available for movement due to the many weaves Summoner still has along with the mechanics of Bahamut. Because of how Bahamut works, Four stacks of Ruin IV are ideal when entering the Bahamut phase in order to achieve the maximum amount of Wyrmwaves from our Dragon friend. I should also mention while bringing up the Demi-summons that while they will use Wyrmwave and Scarlet Flame when the Summoner is on the move, they will skip over these abilities if Ahk Morn or Revelation is used while they are also trying to follow the Summoner at the same time, therefore adding a factor to pay attention to during an otherwise very friendly movement phase in Firebird Trance. Finally, you mention that DWT allows instant casting in heavy movement phases, but this will almost always result in a dps loss by either 1) Causing a misalignment of DoT timers to force a mid-Bahamut DoT refresh at an awkward time or 2)Pushing Bahamut out of raid buffs. Plus, unless DWT is used on a Ruin III, there is no gain in instant casts, and many times an Egi-Assault will be used here to get that last Ruin IV stack for Bahamut.

Yes, there is a lot more ease of access in planning a fight's movement around offgcd usage and additional Ruin IV stacks that SMN has gained in 5.1, but the Summoner rotation is still rigid and won't always line up preferably. As I would define "full mobility" as having zero restrictions on movement, which is what the Ranged roles have, I would say that the above restrictions, or any restriction at all, means that the class does not have "full mobility."

Damn right mch needs alot more.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

snip.

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As someone that plays DNC with some regularity I\\'m gonna have to disagree on Espirit Gauge changes.

Espirit is for Sabre Dance, letting us use that single skill a little more often changes very little, what needs to be addressed is the fact that DNC is a pseudo melee being treated like a backliner.

Yes, that\\'s right, despite our "range" most of our damage requires us to fight up close. Our step finishes are effectively shotgun blasts and maximising our output requires the use of combed (highlighted for bonus potency) Bloodshower, Rising Windmill and Sword Shower to maximise our fourfold feather procs.

The range advantage we have affords us the ability to keep damaging while retreating from mechanics and trying to build our Espirit/Feathers.

How does a 5% damage, buff a 2 min cooldown group buff, crit buff, a 90 second cooldown low potency heal and 10% mitigation skill equate to us being so heavily penalised on dps I\\'ll never know, compare our kits to SAMs, NINs and DRGs, whom while more selfish are not that far detached (they also have more base mitigation and access to much better self sustain)

I think someone grossly overestimated the strength of the range advantage and as a result it has left DNCs as half a Job Class.

Imho they could make a good start here by retuning the DNC AoE skills since we have to use them to do more when only a single target is struck, give us more of that shotgun effect we have with Fan Dance III, Sabre Dance & our step finishes and it would absolutely improve the DNC.

P.S the "support" excuse doesn\\'t cut it for BRD and DNCs low performance, especially now that you have two dps classes with the most invaluable skill (Raise) regularly fighting for the top of the pile.

No more excuses, it\\'s time to redress the balance.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Espirit is for Sabre Dance, letting us use that single skill a little more often changes very little, what needs to be addressed is the fact that DNC is a pseudo melee being treated like a backliner.

Yes, that\\'s right, despite our "range" most of our damage requires us to fight up close. Our step finishes are effectively shotgun blasts and maximising our output requires the use of combed (highlighted for bonus potency) Bloodshower, Rising Windmill and Sword Shower to maximise our fourfold feather procs.

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...Why are you complaining about that when Dancer is one of the most mobile jobs in the entire game? Just because you're Ranged doesn't mean you have to be away from the enemy at ALL times, that and you have plenty of chances to engage an enemy and then keep your distance or avoid AoEs/Do mechanics freely than the other DPS roles. Frankly, I like that Dancer has some short-ranged attacks to give it a little "weakness", or else the job would be too easy.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

...Why are you complaining about that when Dancer is one of the most mobile jobs in the entire game? Just because you're Ranged doesn't mean you have to be away from the enemy at ALL times, that and you have plenty of chances to engage an enemy and then keep your distance or avoid AoEs/Do mechanics freely than the other DPS roles. Frankly, I like that Dancer has some short-ranged attacks to give it a little "weakness", or else the job would be too easy.

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Uhm, did you actually read what I wrote? I'm saying DNC is supposed to get into melee range to do their damage and the offset is we still do damage on retreat (moving out of mechanics) however it's clear they absolutely over compensated for that given the DNCs performance in content.

Mobility is good, sure... Except that En Avant clips skills and cancels autos. That's a dps loss so we can't use our mobility tool to retreat if we have an auto or skill in animation, as such En Avant is for gap closing or mobility while in Tech/Standard Step. That's a pretty big restriction and using it in a way to ensure you lose no dps means it becomes like every melee gap closer without a damage component (a fair trade given we continously damage while they have a single slow ranged skill at their disposal)

I love the aggressive playstyle and risk of the DNC, what I don't love is the lack of reward.

Remember to be optimal we absolutely have to use AoE abilities on single targets after using flourish in Raid situations. Half of our kit reflects this with skills like our step finishes, Sabre Dance and Fan Dance III having shotgun like effects (more damage to first target, or for being closer, less to subsequent targets) our other AoEs should have that same coefficient (when highlighted for combo bonus/feather generation chance) That would be a great improvement and make us more than that class that's helps others get phat dps while being really good at trash clearing but really bad at single target.

It's not a great ask, it's simply asking that our risk is rewarded appropriately..

Well, how you worded things isn't really the best I think. You talk like Dancer having melee attacks is like a problem, "a pseudo melee being treated like a backliner" if you will, but sure you did acknowledge that it has the abilities to make that kind of playstyle effective.
En Avant, like a few mobility skills like Elusive Jump and Repelling Shot, do that. This shouldn't be an issue really as a Physical Ranged. There's more than plenty opportunities to close the gap even without En Avant. Also I don't think using it will actually significantly or noticeably decrease your DPS, and it's always better use it (if there's no other choice) to move out for mechanics than not.

I'm sure using the AoE abilities in single-target is intentional design in the first place, and it makes sense aesthetic-wise because...Dancer. I agree though that the rest of Dancer's AoEs should have the shotgun-like effects with more damage (on the first enemy) would be nice to have, though.

But yeah, Dancer could feel more rewarding for sure. Physical Ranged in general is just too weak.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

As someone that plays DNC with some regularity I\\'m gonna have to disagree on Espirit Gauge changes.

Espirit is for Sabre Dance, letting us use that single skill a little more often changes very little, what needs to be addressed is the fact that DNC is a pseudo melee being treated like a backliner.

Yes, that\\'s right, despite our "range" most of our damage requires us to fight up close. Our step finishes are effectively shotgun blasts and maximising our output requires the use of combed (highlighted for bonus potency) Bloodshower, Rising Windmill and Sword Shower to maximise our fourfold feather procs.

The range advantage we have affords us the ability to keep damaging while retreating from mechanics and trying to build our Espirit/Feathers.

How does a 5% damage, buff a 2 min cooldown group buff, crit buff, a 90 second cooldown low potency heal and 10% mitigation skill equate to us being so heavily penalised on dps I\\'ll never know, compare our kits to SAMs, NINs and DRGs, whom while more selfish are not that far detached (they also have more base mitigation and access to much better self sustain)

I think someone grossly overestimated the strength of the range advantage and as a result it has left DNCs as half a Job Class.

Imho they could make a good start here by retuning the DNC AoE skills since we have to use them to do more when only a single target is struck, give us more of that shotgun effect we have with Fan Dance III, Sabre Dance & our step finishes and it would absolutely improve the DNC.

P.S the "support" excuse doesn\\'t cut it for BRD and DNCs low performance, especially now that you have two dps classes with the most invaluable skill (Raise) regularly fighting for the top of the pile.

No more excuses, it\\'s time to redress the balance.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Uhm, did you actually read what I wrote? I'm saying DNC is supposed to get into melee range to do their damage and the offset is we still do damage on retreat (moving out of mechanics) however it's clear they absolutely over compensated for that given the DNCs performance in content.

Mobility is good, sure... Except that En Avant clips skills and cancels autos. That's a dps loss so we can't use our mobility tool to retreat if we have an auto or skill in animation, as such En Avant is for gap closing or mobility while in Tech/Standard Step. That's a pretty big restriction and using it in a way to ensure you lose no dps means it becomes like every melee gap closer without a damage component (a fair trade given we continously damage while they have a single slow ranged skill at their disposal)

I love the aggressive playstyle and risk of the DNC, what I don't love is the lack of reward.

Remember to be optimal we absolutely have to use AoE abilities on single targets after using flourish in Raid situations. Half of our kit reflects this with skills like our step finishes, Sabre Dance and Fan Dance III having shotgun like effects (more damage to first target, or for being closer, less to subsequent targets) our other AoEs should have that same coefficient (when highlighted for combo bonus/feather generation chance) That would be a great improvement and make us more than that class that's helps others get phat dps while being really good at trash clearing but really bad at single target.

It's not a great ask, it's simply asking that our risk is rewarded appropriately..

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dont wanna argue but if thats your opinion - u haven't understood its core... actually the only skills which needs max melee-range are the two aoe-skils after using flourish (which u can even skip in some situations without a loss) - all other skills even the finisher have a far wider range. its stupid to say dnc have to be upfront all the time - cause that's actually just not true. we are blessed using step combination every 30secs for moving in dngs or avoiding mechanics in savage/ex primals without losing uptime and en avant is one of the best charges we could have cause of its 3 stacks - talking about auto-min-max is deplaced here cause this discussion-lvl is far from optimizing. That being said I don't wanna talk about esprit/feathers here cause Min already told you how to handle them in (and out of) our 2 mins burst windows in the other topic.

Dnc is not complicated nor "broken" in range/movement or design - it just needs a lil bit more raw power and would become one of the best working/flowing cls in the game by now. your personal experience with this cls is just a bit lacking I guess... so maybe before asking for balance changes... u should take your time for some in-depth researches first : /