Problem:
In its current state, Ninja cycles its cooldowns on a 360 seconds loop (If used on cd, ninja cooldowns are 60s, 90s, 120s). If we reduce these loops to a more manageable measure, we would take trick attack cooldown (60 seconds) and cut it in 6 pieces.
Of those 6 pieces:
- Even pieces would contain 2x Raiton 1x Hyosho 1x Suiton, The time to cast these isn't affected by skill speed hence, of those 60 seconds cycle, we can cut, 2.5x2 (raiton cast times) + 2.5 (hyosho cast time) + 3s (suiton cast time) [Including the mudras associated by their combinations]. This gives us a total of 10.5 seconds spend on non skill speed variable abilities.
Recap, we have cycles of 60s with 14 and 10.5 seconds of non variable duration.
- Odd pieces would have, on top of the same mentioned skills for Even pieces, a TCJ, that would add 3.5 seconds of time spend on non skill speed variable abilities cast time, for a total of 14s.
Now, Ninja's trick attack, is on a 60s non variable cooldown. This presents a problem when we have a part of the rotation which is variable by skill speed, our Weaponskills.
- These weaponskills, assuming you have huton up during all the 360seconds of the cycle, would take as long as 2.12 and as little as 1.90 seconds to be casted (Provided the minimum and maximum skill speed we can get during this tier [Eden Gate Savage])
Suggestion:
- There isn't a single skill speed tier that would let us do Trick Attack on a strict cooldown during the 360 seconds of the complete cycle, due to the variance of even and odd tricks due to TCJ cast interference. Since the fractions wouldnt add up due to this time difference between even and odd trick attacks.
-Make Trick Attack CD scale up to a minimum with huton or skill speed, in a range of maximum 2.12s reduction so you can still use it on cooldown no matter what skill speed you have in your gear or which abilities you use between them.
-I'm not asking for trick to have less cooldown than what it has, I'm asking for ninjas to be able to use our skill on cooldown rather than have an artificial longer cooldown due to interferences with other skill casts.
[Suggestion] Trick attack cooldown scalling with Skill Speed
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11-06-2019, 12:36 PMShalfu[Suggestion] Trick attack cooldown scalling with Skill Speed
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11-06-2019, 12:55 PMShurrikhan
Let's not desync TA from all the other raid buffs.
That said, I'd gladly take SkS-scaling on the GCD inflictions of TCJ, Ninjutsu, and each Mudra, just as we saw changed for Tsubame Gaeshi.
Additionally, you could even have the Ninjutsu recharges scale with SkS, honestly, as that wouldn't cause any further desync issues now that it has two charges atop its 20-second Suiton buff. -
11-06-2019, 01:03 PMRisvertasashiYeah - scaling TA's CD would hurt ninja more than it helps. It's not just about lining up with your own rotation - it has to line up with the rest of the raid's too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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11-06-2019, 01:06 PMShalfu
It shouldn't be as big of a reduction to desync it from other cds, this post wants to achieve the exact opposite, trick attack to be kept aligned by being able to fire it up as soon as its ready. In its current state, trick attack would drift out of other raid buffs and thats why the suggestion was made.
The problem, in less words, is that due to the interference in cast time used on ninjutsus and tcj, you get trick ready as your gcd is ready to be used, causing it to drift for 1s on each time you use it.
After 10 uses, that would mean 10s, pushing it out of other cds -
11-06-2019, 06:02 PMRydahXThe entire point of the post is to NOT make TA desync, as of now it desyncs a second per castQuote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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11-06-2019, 06:28 PMShurrikhanAs you said, though, that's due to Suiton and TCJ, and the fact that none of those scale with Attack Speed, for (60-11.5)mod[GCD] desync per TA. Usually, that's not even enough to be forced into deciding between a perfectly instant TA (at clip cost) and maximizing uptime (at cost of TA immediacy).Quote:
Originally Posted by RydahX
In either case, though, scaling it with SkS is going to be irrelevant to the factors currently desyncing it, and would ultimately just obscure what the player has to do to maintain sync with other raid buffs, making it harder for your team to rely on.
If you're getting delay from casting Suiton right before TA comes up... why? You have an entire Ninjutsu's cooldown of precasting available to you. There is no reason to push back TA over that. Maybe I'm just playing at a more favorable SkS breakpoint, but be it on a TCJ minute or no-TCJ minute, I've no problems getting TA up instantly upon refresh without clipping.
Meanwhile, scaling Raiton to a standard GCD, TCJ and Suiton each to a 125 or 133% GCD or so, and Fuma to a 67 or 75% GCD, and buffing Fuma to be equal or nearly equal in efficiency to Raiton given its shorter uptime cost, would allow for perfect sync; every Suiton, applied by TCJ or otherwise, could be evened out by a Fuma, so that your GCD could never put you in a position of weighing TA immediacy against uptime (which, ofc, uptime would always win, thus causing desync). -
11-06-2019, 07:00 PMVendalwind
Im all for having SkS effect more things. Ive always wanted to be able to play a speed nin.
Fixing desync would be wondeful. The trick to this tho would be making the scaling minimal such that youd never have people moving early for pdps reasons. If it scaled at the same rate shadow fang currently does that problem would exist.
As it stands NIN as a class has more than 25% of its GCD skill time consumed casting GCDs un-effected by SkS. This causes many many issues with properly aligning.
I like the trick scaling idea. I also like shurikans general scaling idea even more as long as it was carefully thought out for a specific rotation by the devs.
Im quite happy with nin atm, but i gotta say. I oddly feel more stressed during trick than i ever did before because its so easy for us to lose alignment with cascading effects into every future trick for the rest of the fight. That could just be growing pains tho of getting to know the new nin.
And i personally was also dissapointed when bunshin was changed such that sks would no longer have as much effect on its output. Because ive always hoped speed nin would be a viable thing someday. -
11-07-2019, 01:16 AMShalfuYou cannot reduce those skills further down than 1.5 on their execution, and if you reduce the mudra recast, you are punishing the high ping players for no reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
The weaving space between a Ninjutsu and a normal GCD is exactly 0.8, 0.7 would be taken by the animation of the ogcd you wanna get in between them, so its only 0.1 room for ping to take place. Reducing ninjutsu recast by sks will only enhance ping problems.
Mudras, on the other hand, have a 0.5 recast time. 0.35 animation lock. You could reduce this further down, but as it is, at the moment, is already a problem for people with 200ms, since they are clipping their gcd to queue mudras. Again, reducing the mudra recast time will enhance ping problems.
Trick attack recast time adjusted to sks will not affect high ping or lower ping. -
11-07-2019, 05:55 AMNemekh
SE's fixes of late to strict 60s CDs and allowing leniency in their use has been to reduce the cd by 5s to 55s in order to allow for drift to not be a problem (and being able to catch up and correct potential drift). That's what was done for Summoner's Trances and Machinist with Reassemble.
It's fair to say you'd still want to adhere to the minute alignment windows. So far it's working pretty nicely in that regard for SMN, but offers its own points of confusion for players. Would that achieve the same desired effect? -
11-07-2019, 06:03 AMShalfuI'm not even asking for such a big window of leniency to bring confusion to newer players, but a gcd leniency for any player to use it and not cause any type of problems to their group no matter which level the ninja is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemekh
We've had this window of leniency in some cooldowns during 5.0x, for example, bunshin wasn't a strict 120s but 110s due to ninki generation interference.
5 seconds would bring up some issues towards personal dps, but a gcd recast adjustment will totally nullify the consequences of clipping your gcd for trick or drifting. -
11-07-2019, 06:22 AMShurrikhanYou can. See Meditation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalfu
At 20% SkS, a whopping 7k+ stat, you'd have reduced acceptable ping from its current maximum of 250 to... 200. 50 ms effect on a very small span of the playerbase, in order to allow for perfect sync for the 80+% of players at or beneath 200 ms ping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalfu
Which means it can already only support 50 ms of ping. Why then have a weave space there at all? That defeats the purpose of the whole change. Get rid of it, allowing for perfect sync, and just don't wait until Trick Attack to hit Suiton. Our Ninjutsu will always outpace our Trick Attack regardless, due to casting Suiton on pull but waiting until a later GCD to actually use it. You do NOT need to use TA immediately after Ninjutsu.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalfu
By doing nearly nothing for either side. There are fixed GCD intervals, even given complete adherence to an optimal rotation, that currently allow for a perfectly timed Trick Attack. Scaling TA, rather than the things actually causing the desync, merely changes those intervals. Unless we are suddenly forced to stack SkS despite its low relative weight past entry gear, it's not going to add a single interval to that list, only change where they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalfu
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11-07-2019, 06:32 AMShalfuYou just read the part you wanted to read, keep reading for the reason why you cannot reduce it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Ninja has huton effect, which is already 15% sks. Again, keep reading on the post to see why i give the reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
No, it supports 100ms players. Clearly you don't know what im talking about if you think we are waiting for trick to come out of cooldown to use suiton.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
No, they arent fixed intervals when there is a fixed amount of time tied to ninjutsus and another fraction of time tied to variable gcd values.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I'm also the designer of the current ninja opener and rotation, trust me, i know a thing or two about the job.
I invite you to play ninja once, stopwatch on the Battle tab the time for your trick and compare for yourself that this last statement you made is not possible. Since it seems you haven't played it before, or atleast, since the changes had happened or without trying to perform an optimal rotation. -
11-07-2019, 06:43 AMShurrikhanSkS =/= Attack Speed. TA need not scale itself around the common GCD, only by how much that GCD will be further varied by gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalfu
So I thought, too, until I saw the current research on ping-based uptime loss. It's double the ping. The allowable latency is half the remaining GCD gap. Just as the fact that GCDs let us queue (and more importantly, query) .5 seconds early only allows us 250 ms of ping before penalty. Else a 500 ms ping player would still be spamming away at GCDs just as quickly as you do. ...They don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalfu
Yes, they are. The only thing that would make it not so is to follow a different rotation or lost uptime. Given the same rotation, as strictly given in my statement, the intervals allowing for a perfectly time TA are fixed to the same extent any other oGCD in the game is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalfu
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11-07-2019, 06:44 AMJukebox12
Ok why is everyone thinking attack speed is a skill speed or spell speed these are two extremely different things stop labeling as the same. 15% Sps/Sks is a tiny compare to 15% Attack speed. STOP MISLEADING people
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11-07-2019, 06:58 AMShalfuIt doesnt vary just by gear but also in which step of the rotation you are, as explained on the OP. There are 2 different timers in which you cannot find a correct GCD tier to perfectly fit in the two of them the trick attack without clipping your gcd or delaying trick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
you are mistaken how gcd and ogcd worksQuote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I'm not really a fan of repeating myself. Try the class and show me your findings, because i really think you are not speaking from experience here but feelings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Huton has an effect of reducing your weaponskill recast time by 15%, it wouldn't affect trick unless trick is made a Weaponskill on the ogcd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jukebox12
That said, Shadow Fang does get his cd reduced from Huton and SKS as its a weaponskill, bringing it to a comfortable 59.08seconds of recast time which will never make you clip your gcd or delay shadow fang to fit a 60s rotation, whereas trick, it is current state does.
I'm just asking to have the same treatment as Shadow Fang has for Trick attack so we can have a smoother rotation. -
11-07-2019, 07:03 AMShalfu
And since i ask for proofs, here is mine
https://i.imgur.com/Cwaoxbb.png
this is what happens with trick when you dont clip your gcd to recast it as soon as you can
http://bit.ly/NIN-Rotation
and there is the work we made on the rotation itself where you can see, adjust for yourself, and try as many combinations as you want to see that trick doesnt fit current gcd sks tiers with ninjutsus.
On that sheet, you can check the column of trick attack cd, from there, you can assume you can cast trick attack if the previous action has next to it trick attack cd being lower than 1.4, if its not lower than 1.4. (gcd time -0.7 from gcd animation lock leaves 1.4s of room to cast trick) you will be clipping your gcd unless you use another GCD before trick.
I could aswell link you all the sheet variations that i made to test that out https://i.imgur.com/cQ2nVgI.png But i think its beyond the point. -
11-07-2019, 07:23 AMJukebox12Why did yea quote me when you just answered my quote for meQuote:
Originally Posted by Shalfu
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11-07-2019, 07:27 AMJukebox12
Also if hutoun effect the cooldown of ta ta would need to be nerf alot
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11-07-2019, 07:37 AMShalfuIt's not a nerf if give trick attack weaponskill treatment but on the ogcd, make it 70s instead of 60, it will come down to 59.08s after huton and skill speed, which is exactly what SF does at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jukebox12
That will solve its clipping/drifting issues without affecting anything/anyone but smoother gameplay of the job. This has been made before, Check Empyreal arrow during Stormblood. -
11-07-2019, 09:27 AMJukebox12It is 60 secs which is good enough why do thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Shalfu
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11-07-2019, 09:28 AMShalfu
read the OP and you will understand.
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11-07-2019, 11:29 AMJukebox12
Still doesn't need to happen ninja is fine
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11-07-2019, 03:35 PMShurrikhanYes, because of... as you said the inclusion of TCJ creating a different modular interval every other minute. So why use a tangential fix rather than targeting the issue itself? Otherwise those 10.5/14.0 seconds are still going to increasingly throw a wrench in your works every other minute.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalfu
You know what, by all means, scale it with Attack Speed from a start of 70 seconds and just require players to track its actual raid timing off a 3rd party program or some other correlative skill, but at least fix the actual issue, then, because otherwise those 3.5 seconds on TCJ are going to have a varying mod time relative to the and repeat the whole issue again despite the fuddled tooltip you'd have created alongside demanding an entire new category of code (note, there are no oGCDs that scale with Attack Speed--none).
I'll just leave this here then...Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalfu
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11-07-2019, 08:41 PMTec_GuyEmpyreal Arrow in 4.x was a weaponskill that was oGCD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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11-08-2019, 03:21 AMBeewerNo need to track it, Shadow Fang works the same way and aligns perfectly every minute, it'll be the exact same timer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
And the suggested change won't affect that in any way. It's just a QoL change aiming to make nin able to press Trick Attack every 60 seconds on a constant basis instead of having it naturally drift away due to how GCDs worksQuote:
Originally Posted by Jukebox12
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11-08-2019, 08:00 AMShurrikhanDidn't they say that it was simply mislabelled, thus removing its SkS scaling as a "bug". In HW, for instance, when it truly was a weaponskill, it inflicted the GCD (even though it wasn't affected by other skills' GCD infliction), which is why it still cost a 600ms-GCD of uptime loss even when perfectly used.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tec_Guy
And as soon as it became an Ability, it lost SkS-scaling.
But, yeah, hopefully then there's still some precedent code that wasn't in itself problematic (since I don't see why else they'd want to remove EA from scaling instead of just adding BL to it for further mitigation of desync issues). -
11-08-2019, 08:47 AMJukebox12Will be a nice QoL but still not neededQuote:
Originally Posted by Beewer
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11-08-2019, 09:48 AMSleepyNekoI don't think you understand what the OP is asking for. By your definition QoL changes are never needed so it should never be done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jukebox12
We are asking for trick attack to be off cd 1 second earlier so that if your gcd and trick come off cd at the same time you dont need to delay your gcd to be in sync with your raid buffs.
But I am getting the vibe that you dont really look deeply into job mechanics are you are just worried about ninjas getting buffs (which a 1 sec cd reduction is not going to make you have 1 more trick attack window in a fight) -
11-15-2019, 07:37 AMBeewer
It's more of a QoL change tbf
You're losing a cast over a long fight while not making gameplay mistakes which is an actual problem, while also getting out of certain skills and raid buff windows little by little as said multiple time in this thread (Rip higanbana) -
11-15-2019, 08:22 AMShurrikhanTbf, that is what makes QoL changes QoL changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jukebox12
This one is only passably so, as it does have a throughput increase over very long fights, but it is wholly deserved and only undoes what would have otherwise been a disadvantage due to oversight. There's no skill-gap squish here, only the removal of something out of the players' control, owed to the fact that the new NIN design has no competitive means of maintaining rhythm through even and odd minutes.
I just wish the solution worked in its ideal form at more than a couple speeds and a single macrorotation under perfect uptime.