Dear SE, stop homogenizing jobs

As the title indicates, jobs have become far too homogenized in ShB. Fun should come before raid balance.

I would argue that it is not fun playing a job unwanted in raid because other jobs perform the role better. (War in 2.0, PLD in 3.x, Whm in 3.3+, all of 4.x, SAM in 4.x and 5.0, MCH in 4.x)

Also, jobs have not been homogenized. Roles have. Jobs within a role have to be able to perform the same in certain circumstances or you could be in an instance set up for failure because a certain job isn't there.

The great obliteration of World of Warcraft classes came with raid-oriented class balance.
Look at them, they used to be the strongest MMO out there now they're down the sinkhole, DEAD.

So yeah, if Final Fantasy is going the WoW way with class design and balance around raids, it will share the same fate and die.

I feel the point OP is making.
I dont play FFXIV to raid, I play FFXIV to have fun and do many DIFFERENT things. Now, playing WHM feels the same as playing SCH, which used to be so very different in play style.

I'm okayish with the way things are at the moment, sort of. I just wish balance patches were done sooner and better. And by balance patches I mean number tweaks rather than mechanic or playstyle changes.

It's very frustrating when the community is like: "Hey SE RDM feels very weak damage wise can you do something about it?"
And SE goes "Oh sure, here, have this buff to DRG. RDM changes will happen within the next six months please look forward"

I'm not a SMN main but I feel bad for all the people that love (loved?) playing SMN because chances are SE will keep making weird bandaid fixes for the entire expansion and you'll have to deal with it for the next one and a half year until they decide to redesign the job. Again.

I feel like there could be a middle ground. We have a specific set of skills balanced for PvP. Do the same for raids but more suited to raiders & raids. Go for optimisation of fulfilling those roles for a raid set up. Then for everything else, the focus can be on other things that make the job fun to play, particularly when they're not being squeezed to get the most out of them. Because this over-emphasis on balance and being streamlined is making the jobs less fun to play and not everybody is in a static running savage and ultimate.

And people being excluded in things on Party Finder because of their job choice has always felt dumb. People do it and it sucks, but you're not going to know the ability of the player you're going to get, though I don't think it's an attitude that should be accommodated for. That slot could have been filled by a MCH who's worth his salt is filled by a BLM who just can't get their DPS up. I've generally argued the meta is only really important for higher percentile groups, which accounts for a smaller portion of the player base. If somebody is able to pull their weight, then arguably it doesn't matter who job they're on. Most of the time people play better on the jobs they enjoy rather than the bandwagon ones they play because it's meta.

I mean, a "Raid" set of skills is probably not the ideal solution, but I'm not sure if there is one, because it is incredibly difficult to make the job engaging, dynamic and fun whilst at the same time making it fluid and balanced according to its role. At least doing something like this would make a separation of concerns.
Raid set for rading (Savage and Ultimate)
PvP set for PvP
Then a normal set for everything else


Taking my SCH. It's well balanced. It flows. It's intuitive and works really well.
But I'm bored playing it & I didn't used to be.

The meme-level pf experience compounded with meme-level class balance and design makes for a pretty bad raid-pugging experience.

But I’m not sure SE really cares about PF. It can even be argued most of the allure from static’s don’t come from a class played well but is instead simply provided by the company of other people. In other words, people don’t care what they’re playing as long as they clear a raid with their static and show off to each other in their little circles. Or as assumed by SE.

In reality a significant amount of players pug, and are judged harshly and critically for their performance, now made easier due to the shallowness of classes. Even healers and tanks are judged primarily by their Dps. Furthermore, the 2-chest system and 1-week lockout without grace period forcing pugs to feel pressured to clear each and every week direly, may work well for statics, but is close to downright hostile for pugs.

When put into this perspective, as I have described, I believe it is possible to say the massive shallow-fication of classes have already exerted a considerable but not highly visible toll to the atmosphere of this game, and to the enjoyment of many players playing this game. While this may not be the only reason for danger of the game taking a turn for the worst, it would certainly be one of the more prominent ones. (Shallow gear design, and so on etc. more issues once it all feeds into the overall lackluster system and unhealthy end-game activity feedback experience loop, especially for pugs, results in things which may convince players after all this, “this was not very fun, not really worth my time, don’t have much to look forward to anymore” etc. culminating in the dreaded “leave game” ending.)

Edit: So it’s a valid issue, and a worthy argument.

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Originally Posted by DevilsDontFly

It's very frustrating when the community is like: "Hey SE RDM feels very weak damage wise can you do something about it?"
And SE goes "Oh sure, here, have this buff to DRG. RDM changes will happen within the next six months please look forward"

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Well, to be frank i prefer that RDM changes keep being postponed, rather than having SE listen to those players in the dps forum suggesting to remove from RDM what make it feel different : vercure and verraise. So that his damages can be increased for the sake of his performances on 99 fflogs percentile, and become a plain DPS job like BLM and SMN except that you will graphically have some verthings instead of explosions and summons. Just before the same players will complain "SE, why are all mages jobs becoming more and more the same ? Who did ask you to do that ? Please stop !".

However, as a counterargument, it may be that SE believes a large part of the “fun” and allure of the game does not come from people trying to play complicated classes to their utmost potential in a large variety of content which for the most part, simply does not require such performance, especially content accessible by newcomers.
Aka. Fun from the game story, style, content itself, instead of the playing part. Thus a simpler combat system is doing people favors.

But increase in class depth, and party composition/raid synergy MUST be compensated for from somewhere else. Final Fantasy series simply won’t be so without trademark depth and party composition systems, and combat depth. Not complexity, depth. Strategic depth not tactical. Or even lesser, finger-jerking attention checks and ping-check mechanics.

SE seems to have trouble balancing and synergizing between theme and gameplay excellence, as evident by the other recent FF titles.

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Originally Posted by Siete

The great obliteration of World of Warcraft classes came with raid-oriented class balance.
Look at them, they used to be the strongest MMO out there now they're down the sinkhole, DEAD.

So yeah, if Final Fantasy is going the WoW way with class design and balance around raids, it will share the same fate and die.

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^^This.

And the worst of it is, this game doesn't focus on it's raiding community at all,we get only 4 "weekly-reset trials" per tier, no true raid dungeon, with bosses always on squares/circle arenas. But hey, at least classes are balanced, right?.

BA was more of a raid over everything else we have so far.

Just like to add my two cents and agree with OP. Classes need to feel different from each other. I'm not even really actively playing much besides just logging in to keep my house because i'm bored to tears of the game. 5.1 is going to make or break my subscription.

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Originally Posted by Shyngo

^^This.

And the worst of it is, this game doesn't focus on it's raiding community at all,we get only 4 "weekly-reset trials" per tier, no true raid dungeon, with bosses always on squares/circle arenas. But hey, at least classes are balanced, right?.

BA was more of a raid over everything else we have so far.

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BA was an amazing instance that was fun and engaging and utterly implemented in the worst way possible. The stress of the portals far outshone anything else I first think of when someone mentions BA.

*looks at every job in this game, and narrows eyes only at WHM and AST*

I don't see how any of the jobs are similar, outside of how those two heal.

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Originally Posted by Kleeya

Well, to be frank i prefer that RDM changes keep being postponed, rather than having SE listen to those players in the dps forum suggesting to remove from RDM what make it feel different : vercure and verraise. So that his damages can be increased for the sake of his performances on 99 fflogs percentile, and become a plain DPS job like BLM and SMN except that you will graphically have some verthings instead of explosions and summons. Just before the same players will complain "SE, why are all mages jobs becoming more and more the same ? Who did ask you to do that ? Please stop !".

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I'm gonna beat a dead horse but that's a perfect example for this argument: AST and the "Balance or nothing" mentality.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

I'm gonna beat a dead horse but that's a perfect example for this argument: AST and the "Balance or nothing" mentality.

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It's almost like we bring these things on ourselves...

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Originally Posted by Shyngo

^^This.

And the worst of it is, this game doesn't focus on it's raiding community at all,we get only 4 "weekly-reset trials" per tier, no true raid dungeon, with bosses always on squares/circle arenas. But hey, at least classes are balanced, right?.

BA was more of a raid over everything else we have so far.

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The number players per raid party matters more than the number or type of raids. When there are only 8 spots to fill, balance matters more because it can determine which job doesn't get taken.

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Originally Posted by linay

The number players per raid party matters more than the number or type of raids. When there are only 8 spots to fill, balance matters more because it can determine which job doesn't get taken.

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Just give a party buff for different classes taken or something.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I would argue that it is not fun playing a job unwanted in raid because other jobs perform the role better. (War in 2.0, PLD in 3.x, Whm in 3.3+, all of 4.x, SAM in 4.x and 5.0, MCH in 4.x)

Also, jobs have not been homogenized. Roles have. Jobs within a role have to be able to perform the same in certain circumstances or you could be in an instance set up for failure because a certain job isn't there.

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Nah, jobs have been homogenized. To give an example, WAR has pretty much had its HP focused identity stripped away from it.

I am with you OP, totally and wholeheartedly. If this continues, the game is destined for death...

BLU was their chance to make something fun and not raid oriented. But they turned it into a mindless Atma farm in instanced content. And instead of it being useful in the open world, they gave it the carnival that you only do once and never look back into again.

Currently the best use of BLU is self destruct for jump puzzles.

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Originally Posted by Siete

The great obliteration of World of Warcraft classes came with raid-oriented class balance.
Look at them, they used to be the strongest MMO out there now they're down the sinkhole, DEAD.

So yeah, if Final Fantasy is going the WoW way with class design and balance around raids, it will share the same fate and die.

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It might be a tad bit of an exaggeration to say WoW died.

The problem with WoW is not the class balance or homogenization (which i disagree with btw. I don't think there is homogenization in WoW and very little here in FF), it's how simple specs are, with rotations typically taking 3-4 buttons. FF is in the opposite of that spectrum. That and their end-game infinite grind/RNG systems that burn people out. That is what is wrong with WoW and why people are leaving.

So, my point to the OP would be to give me examples of what this homogenization is for you and where do you see it. The only place where i see a bit is on Tanks/healers/dps having those role specific skills that are the same for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Shori

I feel the point OP is making.
I dont play FFXIV to raid, I play FFXIV to have fun and do many DIFFERENT things. Now, playing WHM feels the same as playing SCH, which used to be so very different in play style.

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Yeah, the healers are in a really BAD spot right now. But I guess SE thinks they have to completely break them down to bare bones and start from scratch. They really are carbon copies of each other.

Problem with that is when everyone else is getting shiny new toys, we're back to square 1.

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Originally Posted by TheForce

Nah, jobs have been homogenized. To give an example, WAR has pretty much had its HP focused identity stripped away from it.

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No, that's role homogenization. Job homogenization would be playing exactly the same. Also, war lost its "hp focused identity" in 2.1 or 2.2 when they completely remade it and gave it damage reduction cool downs.


Healers are homogenized to a degree, mostly in terms of dps abilities.

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Originally Posted by Shori

I feel the point OP is making.
I dont play FFXIV to raid, I play FFXIV to have fun and do many DIFFERENT things. Now, playing WHM feels the same as playing SCH, which used to be so very different in play style.

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So a healer who deals in regens and burst heals with GCDs feels the same as a mitigative healer who relies mostly on oGCDs? Are you even listening to yourself?

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Originally Posted by Nemmar

It might be a tad bit of an exaggeration to said WoW died.

The problem with WoW is not the class balance or homogenization (which i disagree with btw. I don't think there is homogenization in WoW and very little here in FF), it's how simple specs are, with rotations typically taking 3-4 buttons. FF is in the opposite of that spectrum. That and their end-game infinite grind/RNG systems that burn people out. That is what is wrong with WoW and why people are leaving.

So, my point to the OP would be to give me examples of what this homogenization is for you and where do you see it. The only place where i see a bit is on Tanks/healers/dps having those role specific skills that are the same for everyone.

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All classes in WoW are the same.
Press 1 for filler
Press 2 to reapply dot
Press 3 to use a cooldown or "charge" skill
Press 4 for the proc

It's a literal calculator simulator game.

I've had a funny thought for a while with the whole limited jobs, pvp, raid scenes. . . .

What if, wait- don't rage yet. . lol. What if the core part of the game for casuals is very well made limited jobs, and raiders get a sort of pvp (more abilities though) balanced set. Or in other words all of our jobs start out limited and quite distinct from each other, as we play the open world and most of the DF type content even (all of the story content).

Now this is basically impossible to do at this point, but was just thinking in a general sort of MMO sense. But.. Just wondered how well that'd work if we were all basically special snowflakes from the start lol, we all had unique systems and jobs- some jobs may have to raise pets requiring different time schedules and expectations, some having to learn abilities from monsters, others going on great pilgrimages, etc... taking that old school long world building sort of approach and adding some modern trappings so certain frustrations are removed but that "I hardly balance your jobs, you're all existing for theme and fun" screams.

Then of course, like our PvP, raiding and a place where balance is paramount you'd have your own special set of skills- as much as possible from the limited side of the job would be carried into that, spell ideas, gimmicks that can translate, but most importantly everyone would be balanced so having or not having X isn't a game killer (beyond just making sure you have X Y Z roles).

So really they'd not be limited jobs anymore since they could take part in 90% of the content but yeah... I just had wondered if the main part of the game was basically unlocked and allowed for each job to approach in their own weird way with balance being put behind fun and unique designs. For those thinking of FFXIV's blue mage I'd say don't think on that too much since it's obviously not made with idea that it would take part in most content / wasn't funded in the sense that it's a core job, here I'm saying these wild and wacky jobs with their own systems and rules would take part and stand in the major content and thus would also receive a lot more funding. If it's not fun and screaming theme of the job then it failed, but if an awesome idea is butting up against balance we'd be like "yeah whatever" doesn't matter. "Oh no you can complete the dungeon faster, big whoop- point of this content is to just experience the game, and not compete".

And of course for the stuff where competing and balance is exceptionally important you'd have that in the forms of job kits designed explicitly for that purpose with strict rules put in place, of course you want it to be fun and to theme still but "occasionally" that'd have to take the back seat. In fact the kit for both high end raids and pvp could be the same kit.

Though just saying again, bit late to do that for this game lol- would be huge redesigns everywhere. Just thought it could be quite a unique experience in an mmo where the main part of the game for casuals is fun and theme first and foremost, balance semi-important but we've got a pvp/extreme raid kit for that so don't listen to balance that much.

Exceptionally few rules, few restrictions, full resources, what would be fun for that theme? Do that. When you were out in the wild and see another job you'd feel like a whole new school of thought was opened to you. Honestly, sounds like chaos but occasionally I find the idea entertaining to consider lol. Especially if rather than "side content" like blue mage is these things are designed for the major content and receive the major funds (so that their abilities and concepts are given the full time to ferment and play how would be most fun), and of course they'd have their PvP/Ex/ultimate kit for balance.

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Originally Posted by Siete

All classes in WoW are the same.
Press 1 for filler
Press 2 to reapply dot
Press 3 to use a cooldown or "charge" skill
Press 4 for the proc

It's a literal calculator simulator game.

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That is really an oversimplification in my opinion. Many specs don't even have dots and several don't even have procs. I really don't want to defend their specs, cause i find them simplistic and boring. But i wouldn't say they are all the same, cause that is not how they feel to me.

But this logic is like saying all melee have a 123 combo in FF. Well, they do. But they have different effects and more combos depending on the job. It's a simplistic way to look at it. But, it is your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

So a healer who deals in regens and burst heals with GCDs feels the same as a mitigative healer who relies mostly on oGCDs? Are you even listening to yourself?

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When you spend the vast majority of your time not healing, and even when you are healing that healing is just spamming the 2 buttons, yeah, they feel the same. Sure, succor has a different effect from medica/cure III, but you're not building for it, you're not having to proc it, it doesn't feel different when I'm using succor vs when I'm using cure III because they don't have anything that differentiates them besides how much they heal, which is a moot point because they both heal enough. So no, they really don't feel any different, the only major difference I can sort of give is that SCH can spam energy drain.

So many drama queens in this thread. Carry on.

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Originally Posted by Siete

Just give a party buff for different classes taken or something.

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So you're advocating for the disassociation between job gameplay and job contribution?

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Originally Posted by Reap00

So many drama queens in this thread. Carry on.

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I see people post stuff like this on threads all the time, and I have to ask, what does posting a comment like this add to a conversation? Like, genuinely, what was added to the conversation that wasn't here before?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I would argue that it is not fun playing a job unwanted in raid because other jobs perform the role better. (War in 2.0, PLD in 3.x, Whm in 3.3+, all of 4.x, SAM in 4.x and 5.0, MCH in 4.x)

Also, jobs have not been homogenized. Roles have. Jobs within a role have to be able to perform the same in certain circumstances or you could be in an instance set up for failure because a certain job isn't there.

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Roles being homogenized = being a DAMAGE-DEALER is the same as being a TANK which is the same as being a HEALER.

That's not quite the case. Even by the most subjective stretch, it's not newly the case.

Healers have mostly been damage-bots with a side of healing since HW, and that trend has deepened only by very mild increments. Tanks, likewise, have largely been "blue DPS" since ARR. DPS having CC responsibilities largely stopped at level 49, apart from select early 50 dungeons, if not earlier, leaving them with mostly just the exact same concerns as the other two roles, but with more complexity in maximizing that long-term output.

On the other hand, jobs have been more severely homogenized across a given role in recent times. There's a very clear difference in the steps between ARR and HW, HW and SB, and now finally SB and ShB, in terms of job diversity within their given role.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

When you spend the vast majority of your time not healing, and even when you are healing that healing is just spamming the 2 buttons, yeah, they feel the same. Sure, succor has a different effect from medica/cure III, but you're not building for it, you're not having to proc it, it doesn't feel different when I'm using succor vs when I'm using cure III because they don't have anything that differentiates them besides how much they heal, which is a moot point because they both heal enough. So no, they really don't feel any different, the only major difference I can sort of give is that SCH can spam energy drain.

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There's a major difference between those spells. Cure III can only be used in close quarters (6 yalms) and is a 550 potency heal. Succor is a 180 potency heal with a longer range (15 yalms) that gives shields. You're coming up with a false equivalency to try and make your point, but you're only making yourself look absolutely foolish to everybody.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

There's a major difference between those spells. Cure III can only be used in close quarters (6 yalms) and is a 550 potency heal. Succor is a 180 potency heal with a longer range (15 yalms) that gives shields. You're coming up with a false equivalency to try and make your point, but you're only making yourself look absolutely foolish to everybody.

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Care to explain how using Cure III/Medica II feels different from using succor then? outside of the few instances where you can actually use the range on Cure III? Because I genuinely do not see it. Yes, that distance is nice, and it can be great for mechanics like Hello World where you're far away from the team, but those instances are very few and far in-between, especially for normal content. You will end up, in most content, using cure III or medica II where you would use succor, achieving the same effect, with the same feeling, only with different buffs.

Dear forum-goers: Stop asking SE to homogenize the jobs.

I wouldn't have fun being weaker than other jobs just for the sake of being different.

I mean at the end of the day, everyone is capable of playing Ice Mage if they feel like it. Nothing is stopping you from spamming Blizzard III if you wish to smash monsters with only ice.

Fun before balance right? If you subscribe to that, why don't you just go ahead and mash your keys however you feel like? Are we asking for more jobs like Blue Mage? Completely neutered and a husk of a job but is luckily "different" because that's what we all asked for right?

We can stop homogenized classes as soon as people stop asking for balance. People will stop asking for balance when they get over their personal favorite classes not being the nest for a raid tier.

My solution? Make every raid teir use different classes with different strengths. You may go 1 savage tier not playing SAM because it's not needed and 3 casters are. You can have multiple jobs on a character so the only excuse not to pick up another job to do current tier is because you are entitled and whiny.

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

We can stop homogenized classes as soon as people stop asking for balance. People will stop asking for balance when they get over their personal favorite classes not being the nest for a raid tier.

My solution? Make every raid teir use different classes with different strengths. You may go 1 savage tier not playing SAM because it's not needed and 3 casters are. You can have multiple jobs on a character so the only excuse not to pick up another job to do current tier is because you are entitled and whiny.

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Perhaps the strength adaptation could mostly be focused on different jobs within the same class structure, so no strength comparisons across melee and casters, but just within the melees, for instance.
This allows you to add variety to both inter-job and inter-class. The jobs will be different in how they adapt to each specific boss, and the classes will be outright different in how they handle certain mechanics of the raid.

I think it's okay for each job in a specific role to have similar skills/abilities, especially for the basic essentials. It's gives the developers an easier time to balance them out. Of course Cure III/Medica II will be similar to Succor. That's their most basic AoE healing skill. Why is that a problem?

But I agree they can be more creative with the jobs, especially right at the post-level 50 range. For example, healers have the same one spam-able damage skill and DoT. While it's incredibly uninspired, I don't think that's the exact problem. The problem is that there's nothing else to compliment it. WHM is probably the odd one out even though it lost Aero III, it has two more reliable damage abilities like Assize and Afflatus Rapture. SCH got Energy Drain back but it lost its DoTs and DoT-spreading techniques, while AST is still pretty bland in dealing damage.

For healing spells. I think each healers' healing kit is pretty unique if you look past the basic healing kit pre-50. There's certain ways they're gained, used/prepared and there's certain moments where they are most useful. WHM has raw healing, very little gimmicks around it. SCH I think has a more technical way of healing compared to the other two. AST is a pretty okayish middle ground of the two.

Im tired of the Gameplay homogenazing WAR and DRK are suffering right now and i don't wanna go to the healers side, SE needs to do It better the quality of the jobs is extremly low this expansión specially with all the simplifications of tanks and healers.