The description of Red Mage's Enchanted Reprise should be changed to "Delivers a ranged unaspected attack with a potency of 250."
The usage of Enchanted Reprise is not intuitive for inexperienced Red Mage players. Every ability before that used black and white mana had been melee attacks. Logically it's easy to think that the new ability obtained at level 76, E-Reprise, would also be a melee attack. This is worsened by the fact that normal Reprise is indeed a melee attack. The usage of Enchanted Reprise has been one of the most commonly asked questions in Red Mage communities by newer players, and this change to the description would help make the ability more intuitive.
Change Enchanted Reprise's description
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10-11-2019, 03:12 AMOneTrueMiqoteChange Enchanted Reprise's description
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10-11-2019, 03:54 AMLeidiriv
If you change the description to that, it becomes even more misleading because that description (delivers an attack) implies physical damage while the current one (deals unaspected damage) implies magical damage, which all Enchanted Weaponskills deal. I advise anyone who has issues with the skill to read the tooltip in its entirety, or to watch the RDM section of the job action trailer.
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10-11-2019, 04:08 AMwereotter
I do agree that it's a bit unintuitive. This is made worse when you consider that the unenchanted version is a melee attack only, so if you went to try out the skill at a dummy, you might not see that it's ranged. The only part of the skill that shows this is outside of the actual description where it states that it has a 25 yalm range, something you might not pay attention to if you see a skill like this and just think, okay, yeah. I got it.
I remember thinking initially that it was meant to be a skill you weave into your melee combo rather than a skill for movement phases. -
10-11-2019, 11:30 AMOneTrueMiqoteYeah, it does state the range, but given the other factors, evidently it is extremely easy to dismiss it. This is why the redundancy in abilities such as Tomahawk is helpful.Quote:
The only part of the skill that shows this is outside of the actual description where it states that it has a 25 yalm range
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10-11-2019, 11:34 AMOneTrueMiqoteI believe "Delivers a ranged unaspected attack with a potency of 250" is not misleading in regards to magical or physical damageQuote:
it becomes even more misleading because that description (delivers an attack) implies physical damage while the current one (deals unaspected damage) implies magical damage, which all Enchanted Weaponskills deal
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10-11-2019, 12:55 PMNealSnow
Huh... I look at skills and I'm just 70 rdm, I assumed it was melee range too so dude gots a point it's misleading
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10-11-2019, 01:25 PMLeidirivExcept that the only other skill that uses similar phrasing is Dragonfire Dive, which does Physical Fire damage. If anyone has trouble with Reprise they can just hit P, scroll down to the Enchanted Weaponskills, and find the range on the tooltip. The info's all there and is fine as is.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneTrueMiqote
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10-11-2019, 02:01 PMMhaeric
The fact that it's a ranged ability is already in the tooltip. It doesn't need to say it twice.
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10-11-2019, 06:05 PMTint
It is really not intuitive. I also wondered what the skill is good for and asked an experienced savage raiding Red Mage - and he didn't know either, despite his 90% logs xD
However, I eventually figured it out when I was reading the tooltip again after I don't know how often times that the range is bigger.
A more clear description would be nice, maybe you should open another topic about it in the Localization Forum. -
10-11-2019, 06:29 PMMhaericEvery single damage skill in the game is notated the same way, with a single exception of Dragonfire Dive that adds fire-type damage to the description because that isn't indicated anywhere else in the tooltip. What's not intuitive about 25y range being explicitly listed in the tooltip like with every other ranged skill in game? Adding the word "ranged" to the text a dozen pixels away from that doesn't make it more descriptive than it already is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tint
This is because the skill is mostly pointless and doesn't need to be used to do well as a RDM. It's just RDM's version of Scathe but with an additional cost: a filler attack for when you have to spend more than a full GCD without casting but the target is still available. I use it maybe once or twice a fight at most.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tint
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10-14-2019, 04:37 AMOneTrueMiqoteYes, when you put the "read the 25y that's listed" in a vacuum, sure, it would seem simple enough. But you need to consider the other factors. Players may be new and inexperienced to the job and have to juggle all the new information while solidifying their rotation. Plus the fact that all attacks using mana have been melee, with this one exception. Plus Reprise's normal version being a melee attack. Plus how it is possible for people to outright miss the range and radius description.Quote:
What's not intuitive about 25y range being explicitly listed in the tooltip like with every other ranged skill in game?
All in all, your argument of "it shouldn't be unintuitive" doesn't change the fact that it indeed has often been unintuitive. -
10-14-2019, 06:24 AMMhaericAll of which can be solved by reading the tooltip. Adding the word ranged in the description isn't going to fix stupid. Also, it's a level 76 ability. People who have it are not new to the job nor should they be solidifying their rotation which is the same even when level synced to the lowest dungeons.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneTrueMiqote
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10-14-2019, 08:18 PMTintWhy are you against this? What does it take away from you when they add the word "ranged" to the tooltip?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhaeric
The skill is confusing for some people, evident because they said so in this topic, and adding the word may help some people to understand the ability better, or maybe not, but at least it would be something. -
10-14-2019, 08:47 PMRongwayThe wording "delivers an attack" always means physical damage. "Deals <element/aspect> damage" is always magical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tint
The inclusion of the word "ranged" would be redundant, as the range is listed as 25y and anyone interested in the range can see this on the tooltip. However, if one wanted to argue for a change, it should definitely not be to "delivers a ranged attack" because Enchanted weaponskills are magical. It should be, "Deals unaspected damage with a potency of x to a target in range," and even that's not the greatest because every skill only affects a target in range, which brings us back to "just read the Range field on the tooltip". -
10-15-2019, 01:34 PMMhaericWhere do you draw the line? "This single target ranged attack deals magic damage of the unaspected type and does that damage to a target within range of the attack which is 25y instead of the normal 3y of a melee attack. This ranged attack is an upgraded version of the unenchanted melee version of the skill, Reprise, that does physical damage at a range of 3y instead of a ranged attack with the range of 25y that this ability has. Use this ability when you aren't able to cast a spell for at least a full GCD. Even then, using Enchanted Moulinet is a better option in some cases. Using it in any other situation is a DPS loss. Please look forward to more explanation of this if people are confused by that and need more assistance."Quote:
Originally Posted by Tint
It already says it's a ranged attack in the tooltip, every other ranged attack in the game uses the same notification as this tooltip, and the tooltip already fully describes what it does aside from telling you how to fit it into a rotation. When I first looked at the ability on day 1 of 5.0 by opening up the actions menu and looking at everything before I even had any of the new 70+ skills, I saw another weaponskill there, was curious what it did, and within 30s figured out it was a ranged attack because it says it very clearly in the tooltip under the range heading. -
10-16-2019, 01:39 AMwereotterIt's great that you were able to gather this information quickly and easily. However there are people in this thread who did not. I mentioned that I had thought it was meant to be weaved into my melee rotation, then was confused that it was on the global cooldown. I had to be told by someone else who doesn't even play the job that the skill is ranged.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhaeric
Let's be honest, most skills people don't read the range of the skill. If it's a spell we know it has range, if it's a melee attack we know it's very close. The only thing I know I read distances on, in most cases, is how large an AOE is. So it follows that someone who has played red mage who sees a physical skill that upgrades into an enchanted version would think that it, like every other similar skill before it, was a melee skill. Just because you understood it right away doesn't mean it's not unintuitive for other players, and the clearer things that are different from the norm can be, the better. It will help all players play the job better. -
10-16-2019, 03:23 AMTint
By the way we have a precedent case: Piercing Talon, Enpi, Throwing Dagger, Shield Lob, Tomahawk and Lightning Shot all have the word "ranged" in their skill description.
Just Unmend and Enchanted Reprise lack that additional word.
So obviously it has something to do with the fact that these skills are both magical, while the others are physical. But why is the word only added for the physical skills? I think Rongway is in the right way here: The wording would be cumbersome o.ô; -
10-16-2019, 03:41 AMKabooaUnfortunately Red Mage is simply an outlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tint
Machinist has no tags of "ranged" attacked on its tooltip lines. Neither does Bard. Neither does Dancer.
The thing about the skill tooltips is that they read specifically as they do when they break the norm. Melee jobs are not ranged by norm, therefore the specification that they deal a "Ranged attack" with those skills is a matter of clarity.
All of Red Mage's melee combo is also described as un-aspected attacks, yet none of them are delivered at range.
Sharpened Knife for the blue mage is an 'unaspected' attack yet is also effectively melee.
And any talk of 'cumbersome' tooltips for adding a simple word need not look at Earthly Star. Literally any complaint about '1 word' being too much is completely thrown out the window there.
If anything, the melee attack tooltips should change to fall in line with everything else, but would that also be too cumbersome?
Would changing "Deals unaspected damage" to "Deliver an unaspected attack" be too much? -
11-10-2019, 09:44 PMSaberMaxwell
Just read the whole tooltip. If you skimmed it so fast you didn't see the range then chances are you didn't fully grasp the tooltip anyway. The range fields exist, they always have, and they've always been in the same place on the tooltip. Sorry if I sound harsh but really, you don't need to rush through reading a tooltip.
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11-11-2019, 01:25 AMGruntlerAnd delivering this information in this way has always been fucky, so if we're going to ask for clarity, maybe this here is a problem that needs addressed first. 'Just knowing' something that is not in the tooltips is not good conveyance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
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11-14-2019, 05:21 AMMhaericYes. The term attack is a specific term used in tooltips to indicate physical damage. This can be seen in the unenchanted versions which deal physical damage and read as attacks in their tooltips. The enchanted versions are not attacks because they deal magical damage and as such do not read as such in their tooltips. This is a functional difference since buffs such as Embolden which provide a boost to our magical damage buff the enchanted version of these skills but not the unenchanted versions. The tooltips for our weaponskills are quite specific in their descriptions and cover everything that is needed to know about them very concisely and precisely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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11-14-2019, 05:26 AMBrightshadow
The biggest problem for me is the icon because it looks like part of our melee rotation, perhaps change the color when enchanted?
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11-14-2019, 05:35 AMKabooahttps://i.imgur.com/oREOK2h.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Mhaeric
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11-14-2019, 05:40 AMMhaericBLU has lots of weirdness to it. In particular, the physical and elemental damage type are an additional stat and actually matters. Did you want me to screenshot every ability from all the real jobs as counterpoint? /shrugQuote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
P.S. your screenshot of Flying Frenzy doesn't prove anything because it follows the same description that all jumping attacks have as well as being similar to all gap closer abilities. I'm not sure why you included it otherwise. -
11-14-2019, 06:27 AMKabooaIt's a comparison. Two abilities that should follow the same conventions, but don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhaeric
Also, that's how logic works. You need only one counter example to show that all don't work that way. The post you pulled from shows others that don't fit the way people are saying the tooltips should write, such as why melee have "ranged attack" tooltips while the ranged are just 'attack' tooltips.
Your claim is that "attack" is all physical damage.
The screen shows otherwise.
There isn't really an all encompassing "This is what it means", but there are trends.
And we have a direct comparison.
Melee are all "attacks" except for their ranged options. Then it's "Ranged Attack." In other words, when the primary "Attack" kit is melee, we add a prefix "Ranged" (or other tags) into the text tooltip for attacks that differ.
All of Red Mage's weaponskills save for one enchanted variant is Melee. Therefore, Enchanted Reprise should have "Ranged" added into it's text. "Ranged Unaspected Damage" sounds kind of clunky. "Ranged Unaspected Attack" sounds better, and as demonstrated, not all physical skills are attacks, so there's really nothing wrong, or misleading, about a magical sword skill being an 'attack'. -
11-14-2019, 07:32 AMJukebox12
If you cannot figure which is ranged or melee then you need to read the tooltip and figure out what is what first then concuslt someone for more information
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11-14-2019, 10:42 AMMhaericNo, all it means is that there is an occasional exception which is not unexpected given the number of skills. It could be a mistake or oversight in the Drill Cannon tooltip. A single counterpoint does not completely invalidate anything. There are other exceptions out there. E.g. Dragoon's jumping attack lists that it is a fire jumping attack which is ambiguous to whether it does physical (attack) or elemental (fire) damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
It doesn't sound clunky because it says exactly what it does just like every other magic damage dealing ability in the game. They all use the notation: "deals <element> damage." Where element is fire, lightning, ice, etc. and if there is no element then it is unaspected. It's not hard. Adding the word attack adds in ambiguity where there is none which is counter to your entire request, especially when RDM has a buff that is specific to that difference. You can see this just in the RDM weapon skills themselves. Unenchanted ones use the word attack and the enchanted ones use unaspected damage.
Looking at the ranged skills that the melee's have, they either obtain them at level 15 or they are gap closers. The gap closers use the gap closer description which leaves the level 15 attacks. They likely put in the word ranged because of new players. If a RDM can't figure out an attack is ranged from the range attribute on a tooltip by level 76 then that's on them, not the tooltip. Also, RDM kit is primarily not melee so that makes for a poor excuse to add the word ranged to a tooltip that already clearly shows the range like with every single ranged skill in the game. And this is true without exception. Every single skill, ranged, melee, or otherwise, has the explicit range of the skill listed regardless of the text description. Even the melee skills of the primarily ranged classes don't use the word melee in their description. They do indicate something like "cone in front" or "all nearby enemies" but that is a descriptor of the AoE shape which is something that isn't able to be described by the range and radius attributes of the tooltip. Something which a single target ranged skill doesn't need.
Seriously, this skill's tooltip is complete and not hard to comprehend at all and this entire thread boils down to people not properly reading the tooltip and then complaining about it despite that. -
11-14-2019, 11:17 AMKabooaI said "Red Mage's weaponskills".Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhaeric
I also stated that Red Mage is just in an odd position as a job where they have a little bit of everything. The Red Mage is in a position where these discrepancies between convention and tooltip exist much more readily. The Melee, for example, are almost entirely melee, which is why "Ranged Attack" is given a descriptor, yet this is not the case for the Ranged Jobs.
That sets the case that tags like "Ranged", "Jumping", "Rushes" and other common place descriptors are primarily there to differentiate them from the standard actions of their kit. A "Ranged" job doesn't need the "Ranged" tag on its tooltip because by the nature of the job, its "attacks" are ranged by default. I suspect any theoretical action they received with a range of 3y would likely get the descriptor "Melee" or "Point Blank" or something similar put upon it.
The long and the short of it is that cleaner tooltips can only be positive for the game moving forward. They will not negatively impact you. -
11-14-2019, 11:28 AMMhaericNo it's not. All classes have both ranged and melee attacks, and the Dancer is one job that has even more variation than RDM and doesn't use the word melee or ranged in their descriptions at all. The only reason their melee skills have a bit more description in the tooltip is because range and radius aren't enough to fully describe an AoE effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
Except that adding the word attack adds ambiguity since physical damage skills use the word attack and magical damage skills use <element|unaspected> damage. Making the tooltip LESS clear by doing this does indeed negatively impact me considering we have a skill that buffs only our magical damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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11-14-2019, 11:50 AMKabooaMelee range is 3y.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhaeric
Dancer has no melee skills, as the aoe radius is beyond the melee limit. They have "Point Blank AoE", which is given the descriptor "to all nearby enemies". Every single point blank AoE skill has this. (Edit: Or should have this, at least)
In the same vein that cone and line effects are not "Melee". They are "Cone" and "line" aoe effects, given the descriptors "In a cone" and "In a straight line".
Also, '0y' range and '5y' radius is more than enough to determine it's a "Point Blank AoE". It has '0y' range, extending from your character. It effects a radius of 5y. If that requires more text to better define its targeting capabilities, then so does Enchanted Reprise.
"Deals a Magical Attack".Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhaeric
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11-20-2019, 10:11 PMGruntlerWrong. Using the term 'attack' when one means 'physical attack' and 'x damage' when one means 'magical attack' is what causes ambiguity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhaeric
The only correct and unambiguous recourse is when a job has physical and magical attacks, to clearly label physical attacks like 'Deliver a physical attack that does 420 potency' and label magical attacks as 'deal an unaspected magical attack that does 350 potency.'
Anything less than that is ambiguous. -
11-22-2019, 06:42 AMwereotterThis is not correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhaeric
Summoner and black mage have no melee attacks/spells, and none of the ranged physical jobs have melee weapon skills. Additionally monks have no ranged weapon skills.