My idea for the WHM II

this is just for fun.
any constructive comment or polite criticism are welcome but any toxic and rude comments will be ignored.

changes to blood lily:

every healing spell will nourish the blood lily.

every cure/regen/medica/Tetragrammaton will nourish it.
every cure/regen/medica will slightly nourish the blood lily while Tetragrammation will nourish it like Afflatus Solace.

2 cure/medica cast will fill the blood lily like 1 Afflatus skill, 2 regen cast will fill the blood lily like 1 cure/medica cast (1 afflatus skill = 2 cure/medica skill= 4 regen skill)

you can only have 1 blood lily, upon full bloom ,the blood lily will empower the following spells:

stone/glare - 50% damage increase.
aero/dia-inflicts dot effect to enemies near target.
holy-increase stun duration from 7 to 10s.

upon using those skills normally during full bloom will consume the blood lily.

the lily gauge remains the same, every 30 seconds will give a lily charge up to 3 charges.

now for conjurer changes:

lvl 1-24:remain the same

lvl 25: gain regen.

now WHM changes:

lvl 30:gain cure II and Presence of Mind.
unlocks blood lily gauge.

lvl 32-during blood lily full bloom will change fluid aura to raging flood
raging flood-deals 100 potency damage to target & nearby enemies, knock back enemies in its path(only in its path), inflict stun duration:3s, blind duration: 9s and Dropsy with 20 potency damage duration: 18s. share cd with fluid aura.(will not consume the blood lily)

lvl 35- protect-grant 10% mitigation for party member duration 10s cd 60s.

lvl 35 -shell- nulifies all cc for party member duration 10s cd 45s.

lvl 40- reflect- upon hit, deal 45 potency damage to the attacker duration 10s cd:30s.
gains cure III

lvl 45-holy.

lvl 46 -aero II.

lvl 50-medica II and benediction remain the same(benediction will not fill blood lily).

lvl 52-gains Afflatus Solace and unlocks the lily gauge.
gains asylum.

lvl 54-stone III and aero III

lvl 56-gain Assize(will not fill blood lily)

lvl 58-gain thin air and Afflatus rapture.

lvl 60-gain Tetragrammaton(nourish blood lily just like afflatus solace).
enhanced revival(trait)- reduce mp cost and cast time by 50% and recover hp to 50% for raise.

lvl 62-divine benison.

lvl 64-stone IV and aero IV.

lvl 66-bravery-increase damage by 10% to target and nearby party members for 10s
cost:2 lilies and 1 blood lily. cd:180s(share cd with dispel,cannot be stacked, does not stack with divination)

lvl 68-dispel- decrease target defense by 10%. duration 10s cost:2 lily and 1 blood lily. cd 180s. (share cd wtih bravery,cannot be stacked. does not stack with chain stratagem)

lvl70-Plenary Indulgence gains the effects that during its effects casting of medica/cureIII will fill the blood lily like Afflatus rapture .

lvl 72-Transcendent Afflatus(trait)- gain a lily every 20 sec instead of 30s.

lvl 74-dia and glare.

lvl 76-Afflatus Misery cost:1 blood lily cd:90s.( cd reduced by 5 sec upon using afflatus skill)

lvl 78-enhanced asylum.

lvl 80- temperance.

its basically taking the idea i had from a previous thread and trying to improve it based on the comments.

the concept is basic and work exactly like what we have now . the more you heal the sooner you reach the limit and then you vent.(like the lore that too much use in white magic will be harmful)

with this concept those who only-heal will reach blood lily full bloom and if they don't dps, the heals they do to others or themselves will be meaningless as well as run out of mp faster while at the same time those who only dps will have their damage cut off cause they aren't healing anyone and most of the dps part of the kit is locked by the blood lily.

This all sounds horrendously overpowered, just a few things that jumps out to me immediatly is stuff like reflect reflecting percentage damage. Slap that on a warrior or drk taking stone crusher in e4s and they will deal more damage than a limit break to the boss. Re Raise and endure are also stupidly strong and just will just lead to more mechanic ignoring.

I get that this is "all for fun", but giving whms access to damage buffs to party members and strong ones at that goes againsts whms identity, as well as this all just padding their kit out with very strong skills which if whm was just to change to this suddenly it would be even more powerful than it already is.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

This all sounds horrendously overpowered, just a few things that jumps out to me immediatly is stuff like reflect reflecting percentage damage. Slap that on a warrior or drk taking stone crusher in e4s and they will deal more damage than a limit break to the boss. Re Raise and endure are also stupidly strong and just will just lead to more mechanic ignoring.

I get that this is "all for fun", but giving whms access to damage buffs to party members and strong ones at that goes againsts whms identity, as well as this all just padding their kit out with very strong skills which if whm was just to change to this suddenly it would be even more powerful than it already is.

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i understand about endure and re raise might lead to mechanic being ignored once but they cant help all the times.
they are insurance skills,for just in case and to prevent alot of abuse from the skills is why they are target for only one member ,cost alot of mp and have huge cd.
rescue 1 to 2 members wont necessarily save a raid if everyone else already died but if needed the skills can always consume more mp and maybe have higher cd :) .

as for reflect,i don't believe 10% of damage done could be more then LB but if something like that could be an issue there can always be a limit to how much damage can be reflected ^^.

well if not them then what different skills would you give WHM or better yet you are welcome to publish your idea as well i will love to see it :)

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

every healing spell will nourish the blood lily.

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Not sure what slightly nourish means, but a good idea. Just needs a reason for the mana cost of cure2 etc. to matter so that Solace and Rapture have reasons to exist.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

all healing effects that you cast or done to you are cut by 50%

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Bad! Spamming cure 2 because the tank's on the verge of dying, and suddenly it's only 50% potency?

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

upon using the skills during full bloom will consume the blood lily.

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Wait so we went from a 900pot misery to a 450pot glare? That's... Awful.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

lvl 32-raging flood

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First - DoTs tick every 3 seconds, so it would have to be either 9 or 12s. Bind and Blind also mean nothing in endgame content. Does this also consume the blood lily?

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

lvl 35-protect

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Is this single target or group-wide? Also how are you going to weave this with only a Dia/Lily every 30s

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

lvl 35 -shell-

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So an AoE esuna? Like SCH had and nobody ever used?

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

lvl 40- reflect

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Reflecting damage is just bad, please avoid it. If you must, however, have it give bonus damage (like if reflect is hit you get a DhitCrit Glare/Stone).

Also how are you supposed to weave all of these oGCDs?

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

lvl 60-gain enhanced revival(trait)- reduce mp cost and cast time by 50% and recover hp to 50% for raise.

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Unless all healers are getting this, it is a bad idea. Why should WHM's specialisation be failed runs?

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

lvl 66-bravery-increase damage by 10% to target and nearby party members for 10s
cost:2 lilies and 1 blood lily. cd :180s

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Super strange cost. Also why is everybody obsessed with all healers having party buffs? Can't WHM just be super strong themselves?
Also how are you going to weave all of these oGCDs

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

lvl 68-valor

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Way too much damage and duration. Why the strange costs?

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO WEAVE ALL OF THIS

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

lvl 72-endure

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MP costs mean nothing to WHM. Now you have the strongest invuln in the game. This is very OP.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

lvl 76-Afflatus Misery now cost:3 lilies and 1 blood lily.

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Wait what? Misery is now set back 30s each afflatus spell?
If so, why would you ever use an afflatus skill?

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

lvl 80- re-raise -

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Again, MP cost means nothing. I can see that this is supposed to be a 'tank invuln' power level, but the problem is that the group now has 4 'invuln' skills, which trivialises encounter difficulty.

This screams of 'hey this could be cool' without any consideration of balance or how the game functions at extreme difficulty and above.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

i understand about endure and re raise might lead to mechanic being ignored once but they cant help all the times.
they are insurance skills,for just in case and to prevent alot of abuse from the skills is why they are target for only one member ,cost alot of mp and have huge cd.
rescue 1 to 2 members wont necessarily save a raid if everyone else already died but if needed the skills can always consume more mp and maybe have higher cd :) .

as for reflect,i don't believe 10% of damage done could be more then LB but if something like that could be an issue there can always be a limit to how much damage can be reflected ^^.

well if not them then what different skills would you give WHM or better yet you are welcome to publish your idea as well i will love to see it :)

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Having 2 extra invulns mean 4 invulns available for the tanks. Invulns arn't used as "insurance" as you put it, theyre used to skip mechanics/ easily mitigate a mechanic. To use E4s again pretty much every hard hit on the tank can now be ignored, stonecruser is already invulned, megalith is also invulned already in some party comps, but could be done for both in this case with any tanks, and you wouldnt need to pop mitigation for the attack after dual earthen fists either. For e3s, every single rip current could be taken without a tank swap. They would not be used for emergencies to "save a raid" they will be used proactively to mitigate, unless its mana cost was extremely prohibitive (thin air exists though) in which case it just wouldnt get used. Even if its CD was so long it could only be done once a fight, thats 1 time you just dont need to think about a tank buster.

For reflect, stone crusher being used on a non paladin or gunbreaker, deals over a million damage to the tank, probably more 10% of that its easily going to deal over 100k+ basically for free unless you cap the damage.

Other than maybe aero 3 coming back, I don't think I would change whm, its fine and very strong as it stands.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Bad! Spamming cure 2 because the tank's on the verge of dying, and suddenly it's only 50% potency?

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the content doesn't push you to spam cure 2 so much and with proper dps and healing shouldn't be a problem cause dps also help save a tank.
also its not sudden you are the one in charge of filling the blood lily gauge so it shouldn't come as a surprise like i said it encourage you to use heals a bit smarter.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Wait so we went from a 900pot misery to a 450pot glare? That's... Awful.

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i guess you didn't read everything.you aren't replacing misery cause the blood gauge is unlock at level 30 and misery is still gained at 76.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

First - DoTs tick every 3 seconds, so it would have to be either 9 or 12s. Bind and Blind also mean nothing in endgame content. Does this also consume the blood lily?

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no,raging flood won't consume the blood lily. as for dots i will think about it ,also not everything is meant to be used for endgame content(aka savage).

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Is this single target or group-wide? Also how are you going to weave this with only a Dia/Lily every 30s

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no its single target.as for weaving just use it when u want.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

So an AoE esuna? Like SCH had and nobody ever used?

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no this is not aoe nor esuna. its a single target that just nullifies cc not cleanse them meaning that during the buff the target can not be knocked back/silenced/paralyzed etc.. however if they were inflicted before it was cast they will still have it.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Reflecting damage is just bad, please avoid it. If you must, however, have it give bonus damage (like if reflect is hit you get a DhitCrit Glare/Stone).

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no i will not remove it cause i still want WHM reflect spell(i do miss it) but i might change from percent to a proper potency damage.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Also how are you supposed to weave all of these oGCDs?

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again,not everything must be used in a minute .

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Unless all healers are getting this, it is a bad idea. Why should WHM's specialisation be failed runs?

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WHM specialized in healing and protection,Resurrection is a part of healing so why should the others have this as well?
also why WHM shouldn't also be useful for when shit hits the fans?

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Super strange cost. Also why is everybody obsessed with all healers having party buffs? Can't WHM just be super strong themselves?

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don't know why they obsessed with party buffs but i thrown a bone for those that insist he should have them.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Way too much damage and duration. Why the strange costs?

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those skills can only be used during blood lily full bloom and also as for the cost they also consume the blood lily.as for the lily part its to also give more options to use the lilies rather then just save for a heal since most healing can contribute to the blood lily nourishment.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO WEAVE ALL OF THIS

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like i said before,you don't have to cramp all skills under 1 minute just use what you need when u think you need it ^^.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

MP costs mean nothing to WHM. Now you have the strongest invuln in the game. This is very OP.

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that's not true ,MP cost does matter to WHM, the only time it doesn't matter is during thin air but that's it as for it being very op if it so op i might change it to just withstand 1 time hit.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Wait what? Misery is now set back 30s each afflatus spell?
If so, why would you ever use an afflatus skill?

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misery isn't set back to 30s each affilatus spell,since you probably haven't read it right. the cost is simply blood lily and 3 lilies which isn't that different from casting 3 afflatus spells and then gain blood lily to cast misery and like i said most healing spells help nourish the blood lily so you don't have to waste lilies to gain blood lily. as for why ever use misery,its still a very strong potent aoe spell which is good for pulls and even damage bosses if you don't need to use the lilies(also you have tetra as a replacement for blood lily nourishment as i wrote).
as for the other skills,they are still powerful and instant ogcd heals so its up to you if you want to use them or not.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Again, MP cost means nothing. I can see that this is supposed to be a 'tank invuln' power level, but the problem is that the group now has 4 'invuln' skills, which trivialises encounter difficulty.

This screams of 'hey this could be cool' without any consideration of balance or how the game functions at extreme difficulty and above.

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again,mp is rather important to WHM despite having thin air cause still thin air also has his long cd and not last forever.
also re-raise has a very long cd and a rather long cast time as well. re-raise doesn't make someone invincible cause he can still die, it just give him the ability to revive immediately after.
i might add cannot be used during thin air for it though.
and true it does scream "hey this could be cool without any consideration to extreme difficulty" cause i don't take just them into consideration cause like i said saving 1 up 2 people won't make a different to a wiped party and those mechanics come more frequents as well it is for the sole purpose of just fun to have.

hope i answered all your answers :)

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Having 2 extra invulns mean 4 invulns available for the tanks. Invulns arn't used as "insurance" as you put it, theyre used to skip mechanics/ easily mitigate a mechanic. To use E4s again pretty much every hard hit on the tank can now be ignored, stonecruser is already invulned, megalith is also invulned already in some party comps, but could be done for both in this case with any tanks, and you wouldnt need to pop mitigation for the attack after dual earthen fists either. For e3s, every single rip current could be taken without a tank swap. They would not be used for emergencies to "save a raid" they will be used proactively to mitigate, unless its mana cost was extremely prohibitive (thin air exists though) in which case it just wouldnt get used. Even if its CD was so long it could only be done once a fight, thats 1 time you just dont need to think about a tank buster.

For reflect, stone crusher being used on a non paladin or gunbreaker, deals over a million damage to the tank, probably more 10% of that its easily going to deal over 100k+ basically for free unless you cap the damage.

Other than maybe aero 3 coming back, I don't think I would change whm, its fine and very strong as it stands.

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that isn't such a bad thing if they help to mitigate 1 to 2 times and whats wrong about 1 time that the tank or us don't need to worry about a tank buster again it's not a bad thing just help with the raid.
and there aren't 4 invincibility skills like i wrote before re-raise doesn't prevent death just allow immediate revive.and if the mana cost is too much of a problem for savage raid its fine ,there are also other contents then savage raid so i don't really see the trouble re-raise is more of a flavor skill.

as for reflect,i change it from percentage to just deal potency damage to attacker.^^

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

that isn't such a bad thing if they help to mitigate 1 to 2 times and whats wrong about 1 time that the tank or us don't need to worry about a tank buster again it's not a bad thing just help with the raid.
and there aren't 4 invincibility skills like i wrote before re-raise doesn't prevent death just allow immediate revive.and if the mana cost is too much of a problem for savage raid its fine ,there are also other contents then savage raid so i don't really see the trouble re-raise is more of a flavor skill.

as for reflect,i change it from percentage to just deal potency damage to attacker.^^

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In a fight with a limited amount of Tank Busters, eliminating multiple of them across a fight using whm is a balance issue, it makes WHM super strong, if you were running WAR DRK WHM, even in fights with frequent tank busters you could just invalidate most of them which again is a balance issue. You say if its just a problem for savage then its not a problem, but that IS a problem, classes ARE balanced around savage and not other content types, because savage/ultimate is the hardest form of content.

Changing it to do potency damage makes it really weak going from fight to fight, fights with little autoattacks, whms damage potential goes down, and fights with more they end up doing way more, its why warriors vengence has such little potency attatched and is basically just flavour.

Also as Yusikah points out, you have a tonne of oGCDs in here with very few weaving tools, and if youre playing optimally you'd have to do all of them basically on CD for damage.

i don't care about those who optimal and want to use all the skills in one go also even though savage/ultimate is the hardest not a lot of people want to do it and balance need to be in all contents not just one. also your thinking is only whm is changed and the others aren't,i didn't create it in thinking about the others classes or caring about their current kit to that matter.

lets say for example that it could be a whm kit, who said SCH and AST need to stay in their current iteration,why cant their own kit changed as well and have their own op thing to contribute.
maybe SCH have some wicked debuffs that speed dps or AST cards have better buffs then now that help with everything.
WHM can help survive mechanics with those skills but it doesn't mean those 2 won't have anything that they can do.
balance can be in different ways.while i gave WHM skills that might help with mechanics it doesn't mean SCH and AST cant have op stuff to balance that out.

caring for balance between roles is fine but WHM is WHM ,SCH is SCH and AST is AST ,just cause i offer something that might be "op" for WHM doesn't mean those 2 can't have something op of their own :) .

and like i said before if you don't like the skills , feel free to offer a different skill or something else.i would love to read it ^^

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

i don't care about those who optimal and want to use all the skills in one go.
also if you don't like the skills , feel free to offer a different skill or something else.^^

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You asked for constructive criticism, if your response to it is "I don't care about those who optimal" then youre not practicing what you preach. Came here to offer criticism, not suggest how to change something that isn't broken in current WHM

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

You asked for constructive criticism, if your response to it is "I don't care about those who optimal" then youre not practicing what you preach. Came here to offer criticism, not suggest how to change something that isn't broken in current WHM

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i'm sorry i probably didn't write it well.
i meant i didn't create it for optimal use or put that much consideration for optimization since it not something that matter to me.
while optimizing the skills might be important to you and i respect it ,it isn't that much important for me and i feel that not all skills must be used but rather some can be situational or used for specific moments.

if you can offer how to optimize my idea, i'l love hear it then ^^.(but pls dont delete reflect,protect and shell ,i really loved those skill on FF whm)

as for balance around the hard content ,again i didn't put thought about it since there are a lot of other content even previous content that need to be considered since not all do savage/ultimate. as far as balance between roles ,i didn't create it in terms of caring what the AST and SCH have right now since they are their own and if i were to think about balance i would have just think of giving SCH and AST something else op that is different from endure and re-raise that will have equal value.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

i'm sorry i probably didn't write it well.
it isn't that much important for me and i feel that not all skills must be used but rather some can be situational or used for specific moments.

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Just to take this part, youve not really created any situational skills other than shell, all of the others are mandatory use if theyre in the kit, unless some of the skills you said like protect were on the gcd, in which case they wouldnt be used. The game as a whole as moved away from more situational skills.

i decided to change and update the idea a bit.
let me know what you think ^^.