Tank Fixes

So everyone is discussing how to diversify tanks more, but no one is talking about how
we are tanks and why our gauge is used for a damage burst phase. Except for Paladin which spends it's gauge on defensive abilities.

So right now paladin is the only tank class that is slightly different from the other tanks. Only due to Sheltron, Cover and Intervene which are spenders for Oath Gauge. I get that if as tanks we don't deal a decent amount of damage then out in the field soloing mobs will take longer but hey that's the trade off for being able to survive longer. Now i'm not saying nerf tank damage into the ground, but remove the burst phase from tanks and add flavor gauge spenders.

Here are some ideas for Quick fixes that would make all tank jobs more enjoyable.

*NOTE* This is not an end all be all change. Just some ideas.
*NOTE* all recast timers should remain unchanged. Just enhance the abilities.

Paladin

• Clemency - Remove from GCD, Make instant cast, still breaks combo. Cost 3000MP
• Sheltron - Increase base duration to 6 secs and enhanced to 8 secs. Cost 25 Oath

Warrior

• Raw Intuition - separate from Nascent Flash. Increase duration to 8 secs. Cost 25 Beast Gauge. Overridden by Nascent Flash
• Nascent Flash - Separate from Raw Intuition. Increase duration to 20 secs. Cost 50 Beast Gauge. Change damage reduction to increases parry rate by 50% while 100% of damage dealt is converted to HP.
• Steel Cyclone - No longer upgraded to Decimate. off Global cool-down, recast time 60 secs. at 72 This upgrades to Chaotic Cyclone.
• Fell Cleave - Off Global. Recast 10 seconds
• Decimate - Off Global. Recast 10 seconds
• Chaotic Cyclone - off Global 60 sec recast. everything else remains untouched.
• Onslaught - remove gauge cost. Recast 30 secs.
• Inner Release - Ignore Cool down timer on Fell Cleave/Decimate. Rest remains unchanged.

Dark Knight

• The Blackest Night - Learned at level 30, 15% HP shield. Cost 3000MP
• Enhanced Blackest Night - Learned at level 70, 25% HP shield (Current iteration)
• Abyssal Drain - Remains learned at 56. Combo to Unleash. Restores 15% of damage dealt as HP.
• Stalwart Soul - learned at 72, combo finisher to abyssal drain. Combo bonus: Restores MP. Increases Blood Gauge by 20.
• Bloodspiller - Off Global. Recast 10 seconds
• Quietus - Off Global. Recast 10 seconds
• Edge/Flood of Darkness - remove from game. Don't need 2 ways to keep Dark side active.
• Edge/Flood of Shadow - Deals 500 potency attack to primary target then 300 potency to all mobs in a straight line.
• Blood Weapon - Add skill-speed boost back onto skill.
• Dread Spikes - Wraps user in abyssal energy returning 15% of damage taken as HP. Duration 8 seconds. Cost 25 Gauge.
• Carve and Spit. Second combo finisher to Syphon Strike, combo potency 450. Adds bleed effect (90 potency dot) duration 20 seconds.
• Living Dead - Reduce healing needed to 50%.
• Delirium - Really don't know how to fix this. Don't want a wasted skill, or a skill that's identical to Inner Release.

Gunbreaker
Remains unchanged. I don't know enough about this job. Unlocked but never played.

An offensive gauge spender with an effective cooldown of 7 seconds is the last thing Paladin needs. It would effectively make players avoid Sheltron and add so much empty APM as to make Dark Arts seem like a good mechanic.

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Originally Posted by RadicalPesto

An offensive gauge spender with an effective cooldown of 7 seconds is the last thing Paladin needs. It would effectively make players avoid Sheltron and add so much empty APM as to make Dark Arts seem like a good mechanic.

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I feel like removing Dark Arts was a waste, could they not have improved upon it? Like increase it's recast time to something higher like 15s and changes to which abilities could be enhanced by it. There was just too many moves which could be enhanced by DA in SB. Dark Arts could also enhance defensive abilities again. I feel that the issue with DA in Stormblood was how frequently one had to use it, not so much the ability.

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Originally Posted by MurasakiAeda

I feel like removing Dark Arts was a waste, could they not have improved upon it? Like increase it's recast time to something higher like 15s and changes to which abilities could be enhanced by it. There was just too many moves which could be enhanced by DA in SB. Dark Arts could also enhance defensive abilities again. I feel that the issue with DA in Stormblood was how frequently one had to use it, not so much the ability.

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At the crux of its core, DA was a 140 potency OGCD. It enhanced every offensive move basically the same way; giving it 140 potency.
Flood of Shadow/Edge of Shadow operate the same way that DA did at the crux of its core; using an OGCD that pushes out a certain amount of extra potency. Only FoS & EoS cost way more, thus solving DA's issue of being required to essentially be spammed.

If DA were to ever come back again, it would need an entirely new effect; as EoS & FoS have taken over its old role.

As far as the OP's changes, you'd have to re-work WARs entire offensive kit if you want to make FC & Decimate OGCD, as you'd utterly neuter IR which composes a ton of WAR's damage. Also 10% all damage reduction for 6s >>> 50% parry. When they're making a bunch of steps to letting CDs be all encompassing, creating or changing CDs to only affect 50% of damage types (only physical or only magic) is a step backwards.

I don't see how this will make DRK and WAR feel different if delirium is still a thing, WAR gaining more oGCD and both having his fell cleaves working the same, this will makthem both feel even more copy pasted.

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Originally Posted by MariaArvana

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Edge and DA are not the same, not even close, the only thing that have in common is they are the primary MP spender.

DA old design could have way more applications and mechanics that could be build around it, edge no, DA use to allow us to have a dinamic combo system, on Aoe situations works as a HP drain more that damage and it could be a nice partner to have with edge but nooooo the Devs just ignore DRK feedback like always, want more MP options so DA wasn't so spamy? Don't worry we remove it and we add edge instead, more combos? Pffff you don't need that, here get inner release instead and stare at the same combo again and again and again now with way less oGCD in middle.

Removing DA was a completi waste, such skill with so many ways to work around substituted by a generic oGCD.

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Originally Posted by shao32

I don't see how this will make DRK and WAR feel different if delirium is still a thing, WAR gaining more oGCD and both having his fell cleaves working the same, this will makthem both feel even more copy pasted.



Edge and DA are not the same, not even close, the only thing that have in common is they are the primary MP spender.

DA old design could have way more applications and mechanics that could be build around it, edge no, DA use to allow us to have a dinamic combo system, on Aoe situations works as a HP drain more that damage and it could be a nice partner to have with edge but nooooo the Devs just ignore DRK feedback like always, want more MP options so DA wasn't so spamy? Don't worry we remove it and we add edge instead, more combos? Pffff you don't need that, here get inner release instead and stare at the same combo again and again and again now with way less oGCD in middle.

Removing DA was a completi waste, such skill with so many ways to work around substituted by a generic oGCD.

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On bosses, your primary use of of DA was to:
Buff Soul eater.
Buff Siphon Strike.
Buff C&S.
Buff DP (depending)
Buff BS.

Heck, they even removed the DA effect from DM because Yoshi-P knew that the very concept of how they've designed this game would make most serious DRk players outright ignore DM's DA effect due to it being a straight dps loss.

Notice the similarity between them all? Adding extra damage by spending MP. You know what OGCD(s) DRK has in SHB that does damage by spending MP?
My point is that DA's primary purpose in SB has been replaced by another OGCD that also fixed the downside to most people's complaints regarding DA. If they wanted to bring DA back, give it a new effect thats more meaningful, as in SB it's primary function and use during bosses was literally a 140 potency OGCD, which EoS & FoS have nicely fixed and replaced.

I think giving PLD an offensive move that uses Oath Gauge is a mistake. When balancing PLD dps, you would either have to consider it part of their dps or not; in the former's case, using defensive abilities would represent "losing dps", and in the latter's case, it would mean working it into your rotation means PLD are overperforming dps-wise. Also, you made Sheltron have nearly an 80% uptime with your change (in 8 seconds, a PLD will accrue almost 20 Oath--it's something like 5 Oath every 2.2 seconds). And I don't understand the Clemency change. It's not supposed to actually be used normally. It's an emergency button. Moving it to an oGCD doesn't really change that as using it delays your Req window still. I feel like being on the GCD, with exactly the same MP cost as your other Spells, is a bit more elegant for Clemency.

Tanks have gauges?

(Ok I am aware, and even know that the GNB charges are even more offense than those gauges...)

To be serious though... I think this could be seen as a paladin weakpoint. Again as a tank I don’t have a gauge on the one I leveled with my new main... but if you put the ability to do mitigation into a gauge you risk not having mitigation when needed. That just starts to remind me of warrior in WoW. Either you never had enough resources to keep up ignore pain and took too much damage or you had too much and could slide too much damage off the table letting you basically “break” some fights...

- that’s why the gauges do offense. It is so SE can predict exactly how much mitigation we can do at each gear point and design fights around hard numbers that only change at the far edges of player skill.

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Originally Posted by MariaArvana

On bosses, your primary use of of DA was to:
Buff Soul eater.
Buff Siphon Strike.
Buff C&S.
Buff DP (depending)
Buff BS.

Heck, they even removed the DA effect from DM because Yoshi-P knew that the very concept of how they've designed this game would make most serious DRk players outright ignore DM's DA effect due to it being a straight dps loss.

Notice the similarity between them all? Adding extra damage by spending MP. You know what OGCD(s) DRK has in SHB that does damage by spending MP?
My point is that DA's primary purpose in SB has been replaced by another OGCD that also fixed the downside to most people's complaints regarding DA. If they wanted to bring DA back, give it a new effect thats more meaningful, as in SB it's primary function and use during bosses was literally a 140 potency OGCD, which EoS & FoS have nicely fixed and replaced.

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And my point is they choose they laziest option because they are short minded.

DA use to have several uses in the past, one of the bringing combo diversity, the skill himself was pretty important for the job identity, I compare DA to his HW version too in mind and she skill have different purposes on aoe situations so they are not the same, comparing one thing with only a part of the other is not a good way to make comparations.
,SB DA design was a mistake in some ways yes but remove the entire mechanic because they have a problem with the rates? They forget what the skill use to bring? It could be a nice partner with edge so darkside wasn't on auto keep mode making the new gauge more useless that the lillis of SB, they could use it to bring more combos as we asked like the HW ones instead of locking us with the soul eater combo all day, they could use it to bring different effects as you toggle his uses with edge but no.

Removing DA was lazy, short minded and unimaginative way to do things, they don't have any idea how to design DRK and that's why we have all this drama around him.

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Originally Posted by Enuriel

So everyone is discussing how to diversify tanks more, but no one is talking about how
we are tanks and why our gauge is used for a damage burst phase. Except for Paladin which spends it's gauge on defensive abilities.

So right now paladin is the only tank class that is slightly different from the other tanks. Only due to Sheltron, Cover and Intervene which are spenders for Oath Gauge. I get that if as tanks we don't deal a decent amount of damage then out in the field soloing mobs will take longer but hey that's the trade off for being able to survive longer. Now i'm not saying nerf tank damage into the ground, but remove the burst phase from tanks and add flavor gauge spenders.

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I literally go into detail about how to do that on the very first page with 2 post on the forum thread that you happen to be talking about.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...rsifying-Tanks

DRK shoulda been built around taking up blood in place of HP as a resource, while under dark side. (due to the abusive nature of this, since tanks barely need healing, all -hp/blood effects do more dmg if blood is the resource spent.)
(Also DRK should have had super bolide. Sacrifice all HP to become invincible. Throw up TBN right before, so u dont die to server tick at 1hp.)
In place of their pet on a long cool down, it should be a "death Grip/pull" that works on bosses, to cheese mechanics. But since its a DPS loss, the cheese better be worth it.
(Still put on a long CD, so it cant be spammed)

WAR is essentially "Barbarian" to the japanese, its not based on the FF1 Warrior/Fighter job (PLD is based on those jobs) its mostly based on the FF5 Berserker, along with FF11s.
Berserk isnt a very good mechanic in an MMO, so in this game, it makes u go "nuts" spamming the same ability.
But it looses that "uniqueness" when DRK has a semi clone of it.
Instead, Berserk should be what happens when you reach maximum gauge. But to maximize its potential, you want to time it with Inner Release (for the same effect we currently have)
You try to keep your "rage" as high as possible, while spending some in fell cleaves, so as not to max out. (keeping it higher should raise dmg in some way, most likely increase fell cleave dmg)
Also WAR should have had "Living Dead" but instead, it gets a true berserk status if they arent healed to full, to calm them down. (When true berserked, they spam attacks randomly, and you dont get to choose which skills. Leading to a huge DPS loss.) They can also self heal to help cover the missing HP.

GNB (A lot is wrong here, but Im not going to bother with this one.)
Only statement being it should have had holmgang.

PLD seems mostly fine, but its gauge really does feel tacked on. Considering it uses MP, it doesnt need a gauge at all. When everyone has a guage, the concept of a gauge feels like its no longer interesting/special.
So I simply say, get rid of it on PLD. This helps add some identity between the tanks.

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Originally Posted by RadicalPesto

An offensive gauge spender with an effective cool down of 7 seconds is the last thing Paladin needs. It would effectively make players avoid Sheltron and add so much empty APM as to make Dark Arts seem like a good mechanic.

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Your correct. Had just woken up and wanted to get something posted that i have been thinking about for a couple weeks, and that was a last minute addition.

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Originally Posted by MaraD_

DRK shoulda been built around taking up blood in place of HP as a resource, while under dark side. (due to the abusive nature of this, since tanks barely need healing, all -hp/blood effects do more dmg if blood is the resource spent.)
(Also DRK should have had super bolide. Sacrifice all HP to become invincible. Throw up TBN right before, so u dont die to server tick at 1hp.)
In place of their pet on a long cool down, it should be a "death Grip/pull" that works on bosses, to cheese mechanics. But since its a DPS loss, the cheese better be worth it.
(Still put on a long CD, so it cant be spammed)

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And i think that is where the problem is with tanks now. It's all about DPS gain and not about being able to mitigate more damage. In-vulnerabilities should never be about increasing personal damage. it should 100% be about saving the party from a wipe by allowing the tank to ignore a mechanic or two while allowing everyone to push their DPS. After all we are tanks and that is part of the job description.

As for tank DPS, firstly we are tanks and should be focused more on defensive abilities while contributing to group damage. Which i think a vast majority of people do not like, because i have heard from several people that think tanks should still be doing a lot more damage. I think the current numbers are generally where tanks should be. A little bit higher then a healers output, but far lower then a pure damage dealer. However, i disagree with GNB and PLD being top DPS while DRK and WAR are bottom of the barrel. I think it'd be fine if WAR and GNB were the damage dealing tanks while DRK and PLD were the mitigation tanks.

As for threat, currently it is so mind-numbing and extremely easy. If you lose threat (except in very rare and few situations) you are simply tanking wrong or forgot your tank stance. Part of what made tanking interesting for me was keeping threat off really good players while balancing mitigation and damage. Currently one move pretty much seals the deal. Which is fine i suppose it allows the player to focus on other aspects like when to use their "burst" ability. Sadly i still see lots of tanks not properly using cool downs opting instead to continue their burst.

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Originally Posted by Enuriel

[...]

Warrior

• Nascent Flash - Separate from Raw Intuition. Increase duration to 20 secs. Cost 50 Beast Gauge. Change damage reduction to increases parry rate by 50% while 100% of damage dealt is converted to HP.

Dark Knight

• Carve and Spit. Second combo finisher to Syphon Strike, combo potency 450. Adds bleed effect (90 potency dot) duration 20 seconds.
• Delirium - Really don't know how to fix this. Don't want a wasted skill, or a skill that's identical to Inner Release.

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I got three remarks about your ideas:

• Current Nascent Flash is a decent ability, seems a bit weaker than Intervention or Heart of Stone. And your idea is to make it random mitigation and physical only ? The point of on-demand mitigation like TNB, HoS, Intervention and Nascent is to reduce damage spikes, not to be used on-cooldown to reduce auto-attacks. You might as well make it life steal only. On the other-hand, making 20s long 100% life-steal when you got skills that hit for 30-45k several times in a row, it feels a bit overpowered.
• Making 25 gauge spenders when the job only generates it by chunks of 10 (basically, WAR and DRK) is a terrible idea. You'll end up with stupid amounts of gauge, which was a problem during early 4.0 when WAR could half its gauge cost. Either make it cost 20 or 30 gauge.
• You don't want Delirium to be a copy of Inner Release, but you have really no issue with Carve & Spit being the exact same thing as Goring Blade ? Also more potency than Souleater with a DoT on top of it (which isn't even compensated by the Blood gained because it no longer powers offensive skills). So it just replaces Souleater ?

Your quick fixes imply another DRK rework. And what should make tanks more enjoyable might as well make them a bit more frustrating to play imo ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No, keep Clemency at 2000 mp.

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Originally Posted by Enuriel

[*]Nascent Flash - Separate from Raw Intuition. Increase duration to 20 secs. Cost 50 Beast Gauge. Change damage reduction to increases parry rate by 50% while 100% of damage dealt is converted to HP.

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So the main purpose of Nascent Flash, is to act as, because people cried that paladin had a monopoly on OT, WARs answer to this. So unless you buff the duration of Intervention, HoS and TBN on another, NO 20seconds is beyond acceptable, it's a complete joke. also as others have stated, the move to physical dmg only in parry (LUL) is a joke, which makes the purpose of the skill redundant on 50% roughly of savage fights. Honestly Nascent Flash is fine as it is, you will have people crying, "but it's useless when everyone is dead"...well yea it's an OT support tool, Intervention is just as useless when everyone else is dead too, that's why you have RI share the recast.

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Originally Posted by Enuriel

And i think that is where the problem is with tanks now. It's all about DPS gain and not about being able to mitigate more damage. In-vulnerabilities should never be about increasing personal damage. it should 100% be about saving the party from a wipe by allowing the tank to ignore a mechanic or two while allowing everyone to push their DPS. After all we are tanks and that is part of the job description.

As for tank DPS, firstly we are tanks and should be focused more on defensive abilities while contributing to group damage. Which i think a vast majority of people do not like, because i have heard from several people that think tanks should still be doing a lot more damage. I think the current numbers are generally where tanks should be. A little bit higher then a healers output, but far lower then a pure damage dealer. However, i disagree with GNB and PLD being top DPS while DRK and WAR are bottom of the barrel. I think it'd be fine if WAR and GNB were the damage dealing tanks while DRK and PLD were the mitigation tanks.

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So first tank invuln comments, that's like say healers should prioritise GCD healing and save oGCD heals for just in case, lmao not gonna happen mate. Big bad tankbuster gonna happen, you use tank invulns like you would Sentinel, Vengeance, Rampart, or whatever CD, at the end of the day it's still a defensive CD and should be treated as such, none of this amatuer level, it should be an emergency button crap.

So you say Tanks should focus more on defensives, when we have more than than enough defensives to complete all savage fights, and ultimates sync'd down at 70, so no tanks don't need to focus more on defensives when we already have enough. I also disagree with with your assessment of the tanks ranking in damage. As they are now, are mostly fine, Burst damage type jobs should never overtake flat damage type jobs in damage with the exception of killing a fight at the end of a burst phase. So that does put PLD and GNB ahead of DRK and WAR outside of kill time.

The reason why Sheltron costs 50 gauge is because it has no recast timer, so you can use it back-to-back unlike DRK WAR GNB can't use TBN, Raw Intuition,Heart of Stone back-to-back. Onslaught has gauge cost because it also has 20' range. If you nerf the range to 15', you can remove its gauge cost, but that 20' makes it as good as Shoulder Tackle/SSD for dashing across the arena.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

The reason why Sheltron costs 50 gauge is because it has no recast timer, so you can use it back-to-back unlike DRK WAR GNB can't use TBN, Raw Intuition,Heart of Stone back-to-back. Onslaught has gauge cost because it also has 20' range. If you nerf the range to 15', you can remove its gauge cost, but that 20' makes it as good as Shoulder Tackle/SSD for dashing across the arena.

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I honestly like Onslaught as compared to the other tank's gap closers just because it is seen as a DPS loss to use it on cooldown and the fact that it's the only unique one at this point, the others have 2 charges and they're free of cost, which makes it a DPS move which happens to be gap closer as well. Only time you want to use Onslaught is on IR windows. PLD and GNB's closer is just a reskin of DRK's.

If I could have tanks balanced my way, (long shot, but I'll try anyhow) it would be to make "gauge" spenders apply both offensive and defensive benefits. I'm a huge supporter for active mitigation rather than the "press 2 buttons or invuln for TB" iteration of tanking this game has been on for some time. I'm not staying have the resource tied to both an offensive and defensive skill, moreso have the resourse spender provide both benefits. Imagine if FC did what it currently does AND provide a small damage reduction or heal on top. Now it becomes save 50+ beast gauge for a TB or dump if close to cap. This makes a good tank not only pump out good DPS, bit also require less attention from a healer. Of course keep a few ogcd mitigatives for flavor, (TBN being a good example) but I wouldn't mind dumping tank gauge for burst phases and saving one in case needed for mitigation later. This doesn't come without flaws though. It would require autos to be downright nasty as this design would allow for a good amount of fluff mitigation. Also TB's would need to be MUCH more frequent. Which I would be a fan of in both cases. There's a reason that I play a tank, and that is to TANK. Feel free to disagree however, I post to see opinions anyhow. :)

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Originally Posted by shao32

And my point is they choose they laziest option because they are short minded.

DA use to have several uses in the past, one of the bringing combo diversity, the skill himself was pretty important for the job identity, I compare DA to his HW version too in mind and she skill have different purposes on aoe situations so they are not the same, comparing one thing with only a part of the other is not a good way to make comparations.
,SB DA design was a mistake in some ways yes but remove the entire mechanic because they have a problem with the rates? They forget what the skill use to bring? It could be a nice partner with edge so darkside wasn't on auto keep mode making the new gauge more useless that the lillis of SB, they could use it to bring more combos as we asked like the HW ones instead of locking us with the soul eater combo all day, they could use it to bring different effects as you toggle his uses with edge but no.

Removing DA was lazy, short minded and unimaginative way to do things, they don't have any idea how to design DRK and that's why we have all this drama around him.

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HW DA usage:
ST > CNS or Soul Eater. oGCD Flat potency.
AoE > Abyssal Drain. oGCD Flat potency and small heal.

SB DA usage:
ST > Syphon, CNS, Soul Eater. oGCD Flat potency.
AoE > Abyssal Drain. oGCD Flat potency and small heal.

ShB "DA" usage:
ST > Edge. oGCD Flat potency.
AoE > Flood. oGCD Flat potency.

What DA was in HW was effectively a oGCD potency boost via augmentation. What DA was in SB was effectively a oGCD potency boost via augmentation. What Edge/Flood is in ShB is effectively a oGCD potency attack.
What changed? Soul Eater is still the primary combo that you press DA/Edge in between. Delirium the combo ender and scourge became a simple high potency attack that doesn't interrupt combos(Blood Spiller), having virtually the same frequency to pad out the Soul Eater monotony. Power Slash didn't exist then and it doesn't exist now without taking over our hotbar space. Healing got removed from Warrior as well since their Steel Cyclone is just potency. This was a global tank design decision to remove both tank's AoE tanking edge over PLD via burst healing.

All that has happened is DRK turned it's 140 pot boost into a 500 pot attack with more flexibility in it's placement per minute. They removed the spam by halving the uses but more than doubling the power. DRKs Mana space by contrast is much larger allowing more pooling into buff windows.

The only real gameplay mechanic that was lost was the TBN MP > Blood play and that has no relation to DA.

DA as a mechanic of turning MP into damage still fundamentally exists. Just not spammy, has a different name, becomes an attack itself instead of a buff, doesn't have additional and often neglected uses like buffing a defensive cooldown that is essentially free now, and doesn't have a requirement of buffing an additional oGCD attack(CnS/DP) since those attacks just became seperate full effect oGCDs (CnS/AD respectively) making Double Weaving much less of a requirement.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

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on HW DRK use o have 6956 MP, DA use to cost 1768 efectively having 3 almost 4 uses of DA, without TBN you was able to storage more uses of DA that edges right now, edge it's just more potency that unnecesary increase the punishment of fail TBN.

you forget on SB DA was usable too with bloodspiller, also you forgeth DA was used always with dark passenger you biggest aoe damage attack with 2 and more targets and on HW it was used with dark dance if the pull still was alive to add some handy doges.

the main diference betwen HW and SB is on HW you was able to use DA on 1 GCD per combo as much (souleater) on SB you was able to fit DA on 3 GCD in the worse scenary in a row (syphon, souleater and bloodspiller) aka creating a spaming problem since you wasn't able to efectively use you MP on other things thanks to the dark passenger nerf betwen other things. on HW with the regular uses of dark passenger combined the steady economy with the only option of DA on GCD you have pretty room of precast DA and comfy get the desire effect without need of doubleweaving. DA was a multy-purpose tool with primary uses on DPS allowing combo diversity being versatile and a job that sinergice with his own kit, please don't say the DA spam meme was always a thing of DRK since it was SB exclusive thing.

DA bring diversity depending of you situation, on single target situations use to bring combo diversity, real resource management, diverse uses of you MP combined with dark passenger and the job enjoy a far diversity of GCD, BTW power slash was more common to use on HW so you cann add that to the list in some degree. aoe situations DA was primary used as a self heal since is was better use abyssal drain alone when you don't need inmediate heals, more MP more AD more DPS on both HW na SB, compared to edge and flood that just mimic the same rutine on both single and aoe situations.

edge/flood are just oversimplification locking DRK to spam the same endedless combo without variety, spaming the only MP option you have without variety, no sinergy of any kind, no preplaning/ management, just nothing, storage and use and don't overflow while the rest of the kit is spam on sight, DA give DRK a way to work that no other job have archive a lot of stuff with just a single buttom and adds a lot of variety and diferent strategicts, in other words make DRK a tactical job and not a mindless TA slave.

Very high in the list of worst ideas on the forum. Like it or not the tank resources are used for damage because it's the only way to effectively add layers of complexity to them and isn't even that complex at that. Removing that and linking them to defensive skills will just make those resources mostly ignorable. Also 500+potency ogcd's with 10 second recast timers on tanks and no other cost, lol.

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Originally Posted by Carstien

Very high in the list of worst ideas on the forum. Like it or not the tank resources are used for damage because it's the only way to effectively add layers of complexity to them and isn't even that complex at that. Removing that and linking them to defensive skills will just make those resources mostly ignorable. Also 500+potency ogcd's with 10 second recast timers on tanks and no other cost, lol.

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It wasn't stated to remove the gauge cost from them, granted it didn't state to continue having gauge cost. But i took it for granted that people would understand and use some common sense and go "oh this is just changes" and not jump at the chance to berate and belittle someone who's views and ideas differ from your own. But hey guess that's the world we live in now!

Also you don't add a level of complexity by spamming 1 skill multiple times in a row. That is redundancy and leads to boring game play. Tanks are tanks and using the premise of "Defensive skills will get ignored in lieu of Damage Abilities" just goes to show that the community at large views tanks now as DD's with some defensive cool downs. Yes tanks need to deal damage, but they should have more then 3 defensive abilities to utilize.

You add a level of complexity by having different skills that mitigate different types of damage. Tanks were better and more fun back in ARR/HW era because they were more complex. However, there were tweaks and fixes that should have been made to ease frustrations on jobs. Like Dark Arts spam to increase almost every ability DRK had and Living Dead flaws that makes it so good yet horribly bad for healers to get rid of the status.

Also while on the subject Paladin's burst phase isn't tied at all to Oath Gauge, Only Defensive and Utility abilities are on it. IE Sheltron | Intervention | Cover. So by that logic you should never see a Paladin ever using those abilities. Which is simply not true at all. However, I do see paladins ignoring Cover/Intervention and only using Sheltron. The more defensive's you have the smoother a run and the damage becomes more stable instead of spiky, and a tank that doesn't do his best to mitigate what he can instead of pushing DPS is greedy and often times ignores using cool downs and just yells at healer to heal harder. Which is terrible game play, so to fix this more defensive's should be introduced that helps normalize damage (not saying we should have enough defensive's to maintain a 100% up time on Cool Downs), but we should be able to maintain around 30-40% up time on all tank jobs.

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Originally Posted by Enuriel

Also while on the subject Paladin's burst phase isn't tied at all to Oath Gauge.

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PLD works because they only have defensive abilities tied to their oath gauge. No halfway intelligent PLD is going to ignore free abilities that don't effect their dps.

The story would be much different if you tied both offensive & defensive abilities to PLD's oath gauge. Then it would literally transform into 'figuring out the least required amount of gauge needed for the fight and at what intervals, then spam the heck out of the offensive move.' Take a look at DRK in SB, where despite it being a great defensive tool, the highest DRK play involved minimizing TBN usage as little as possible due to it being a small dps loss everytime even if it broke, which would add up across the fight; since that MP could be better spent on another DA for pure dps gain. Keeping offensive costs and defensive costs mutually exclusive to each other is the only way to avoid "Optimize for dps" syndrome, or your defensive options have to reward you with potency equal to the damage you'd lose executing them; see SHB TBN being dps neutral so long as it breaks.

Also no, you don't add complexity by having tanks specialize in different damage mitigation types, you create people banning certain jobs depending on the tier and create massive imbalance, take a look at the entirety of HW. PLD was literally weaker than DRK not only offensively, but defensively as well purely from the fact half of their mitigation kit didn't work on Magic damage in an entire raid tier where more than 70% of attacks were magic damage, resulting in them having a much harder time in the fights where DRK and WAR just laughed off damage due to being omni-damage/magic favoring reduction.

Also, the community views tanks as DD's with more health and mitigation buttons because that's simply how the game is designed. Fights are very static, damage is scripted to come out at set intervals, so long as you push the right mitigation buttons at the right time, the remaining 99.9% of your energy goes into optimizing your damage output since that's the actual fun part of tanks in the game.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

snip

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Also if thats the same Fallen I'm thinking of, hi o/

What is bothering me is why he he'll GNB's gauge does have only 2 bullets slots? In the cinematic Thancred had six.

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

What is bothering me is why he he'll GNB's gauge does have only 2 bullets slots? In the cinematic Thancred had six.

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Perhaps the original design required you to have a charge for every step of the Continuation combo? Six bullets would account for each individual hit between the combo steps and Continuation itself.

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

What is bothering me is why he he'll GNB's gauge does have only 2 bullets slots? In the cinematic Thancred had six.

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I think blah blah lore reasons, but probably because he cant use aether like normal GNBs and has to use physical cartriges instead so makes sense to have him have to reload less...? Or maybe they just wanted a cool looking reload cinematic and didn't think it through.

Totally agree that we should have one more though for more uses though. Like a 2 charge move that's offensive or defensive.

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

What is bothering me is why he he'll GNB's gauge does have only 2 bullets slots? In the cinematic Thancred had six.

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In terms of capacity 1 gauge cartridge can represent 6 bullets in a row (gnasing fang combo) or 1 big shoot (burst strike) why we have 2 instead of 6? pff idk, meaby its bcs thancred need a speciall configuration to his gunblade bcs thancred compared to the Wol can't use aether so he have to reload the cartridges manually compared to us we charge our cartridges with aether without doind anything manually so he want to save time avoiding to manually reload so often.

the other option is bcs SE want to make the trailer look good and didn't bother on make it coherent with the final product like how the Wol bring the night using the darkness and we end using the light for it.

Or make tanking fun again and not so stupid easy.. I was a mt in SB for my static, but its so mindnumbingly boring now with the emnity changes. It hasn't changed anything either making tanks more easy to play, tanks are twice as bad now as they were before :p

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Originally Posted by Wolwosh

Or make tanking fun again and not so stupid easy.. I was a mt in SB for my static, but its so mindnumbingly boring now with the emnity changes. It hasn't changed anything either making tanks more easy to play, tanks are twice as bad now as they were before :p

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tanks get a lot of necesary improvements this expansion like acc fixed and tank stance no longer being a theme of discusion but is true tanks are now the most easy role of the game by far, the oversimplification of certain jobs din't help.

I actually really liked the stance dancing. I feel like i'm the only one that misses it :p
It made you stand out as a better tank, if you could cd well ofc and keep the hate.
I'm just confused as to why they keep making it more and more simple every expansion.
You can do some potency changes, but if you only have one main combo like Drk it won't be much more fun, you get bigger numbers woohoo!! :s

they oversimplified DRK and WAR barely change, looking at the state of the jobs looks like the din't make it on time and release the expansion with most jobs half made, specially DRK that have zero sinergy on his own kit and have a useless new UI gauge with a literaly copy pasted mechanic. but you can see the problems all around, SAM, NIN, SMN, both WAR and DRK, AST and SCH, ect. indeed the current state of tanks is pretty sad, they are pretty well balanced right now but with a overall point of view the status is pretty pretty sad and the raids don't contribute much, at least PLD and GNB are fun and engaging and not so ARR levels of simplicity.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

Again as a tank I don’t have a gauge on the one I leveled with my new main... but if you put the ability to do mitigation into a gauge you risk not having mitigation when needed. That just starts to remind me of warrior in WoW. Either you never had enough resources to keep up ignore pain and took too much damage or you had too much and could slide too much damage off the table letting you basically “break” some fights...

- that’s why the gauges do offense. It is so SE can predict exactly how much mitigation we can do at each gear point and design fights around hard numbers that only change at the far edges of player skill.

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So long as it is purely offensive or defensive (as it already is), does absolutely nothing that a second charge of a CD could, except that it doesn't reward shorter fight lengths or downtime. There is no risk so long as it's all one or the other. Which, again, it is, unless you wish to count DRK and PLD MP as a survival tool despite DRK having no reason to tap into their last 3k MP early for damage and Clemency seeing no use in raids.

Shelltron and Intervention working on a gauge does not break fights; it merely allows PLD to follow its stackable co-tank support theme already seen in Clemency. Intervention is inferior to Heart of Stone outside of use right when swapping out or when both tanks are taking damage, and it's often only that second charge per Rampart-Sentinel period that even allows Intervention to remotely compete with TBN outside of dual-tank-damage fights. That's a minor niche advantage and a higher skill ceiling for parity outside of that niche, and more or less a necessary consequence of how Intervention works... not a fight-breaker. PLD is fine as is in that regard.

IMO all tanks should have their 2 part AOE combo before lvl 50.
AD on DRK should have a 30s cooldown.
LD on DRK should have a 50% heal requirement or increase healing received by 300% to help no WHM healers and future healers added.
Dark Mind should be 15% magic mitigation and 10% physical mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Derio

Dark Mind should be 15% magic mitigation and 10% physical mitigation.

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You could honestly even up the anti-magic component up to 20% as long as you're willing to extend its cooldown to 90 seconds as to be the opposite of Camouflage (10% vs. magical and an RNG-driven average of 20% vs. physical)...

Though, given DRK's outperforming GNB average mitigation over time in all other ways, I'm not sure DRK even needs that. Living Dead and TBN future-proofing are the only real issues to me at this point.

One fix get rid of the tank stance and always have it on. Its pretty bad in raid when dragoon steals the agro from boss with 3 tanks attacking it. To many forget to turn on there stances.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

One fix get rid of the tank stance and always have it on. Its pretty bad in raid when dragoon steals the agro from boss with 3 tanks attacking it. To many forget to turn on there stances.

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Yea let me just go ahead and unintentionally rip agro from the other tank because I already shirked them before and the CD doesn't line up with IR which will fist their enmity hold to death if I'm anywhere close to them on agro.

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Originally Posted by Enuriel

Warrior

• Raw Intuition - separate from Nascent Flash. Increase duration to 8 secs. Cost 25 Beast Gauge. Overridden by Nascent Flash
• Nascent Flash - Separate from Raw Intuition. Increase duration to 20 secs. Cost 50 Beast Gauge. Change damage reduction to increases parry rate by 50% while 100% of damage dealt is converted to HP.
• Steel Cyclone - No longer upgraded to Decimate. off Global cool-down, recast time 60 secs. at 72 This upgrades to Chaotic Cyclone.
• Fell Cleave - Off Global. Recast 10 seconds
• Decimate - Off Global. Recast 10 seconds
• Chaotic Cyclone - off Global 60 sec recast. everything else remains untouched.
• Onslaught - remove gauge cost. Recast 30 secs.
• Inner Release - Ignore Cool down timer on Fell Cleave/Decimate. Rest remains unchanged.

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Please no. The absolute last thing I would want is yet more Fell Cleave spamming. It just makes the skill feel watered down, especially since it would need a massive nerf if you were able to use it every 10 seconds off the GCD. I also really dislike making the Beast Gauge something you ignore until a buster happens. It's something that always bugged me about Paladin.