Yet more ideas for SMN Rework between now and next expansion

You may proceed to roll your eyes, for yes, this is yet another self-important SMN rework thread.

So, the main concerns I plan to address here are threefold:

1. Since the addition of Egi Assault commands, SMN's rotation has become very busy, and almost contains more oGCDs per minute than the caster actually has instant casts.
2. Streamlining button bloat. Presently I have 3 bars of job and role-related actions, a number of which are buttons that really should just be combined for QoL's sake.
3. Adjusting the system of Egi management.

Now, some of you might instantly propose that the easy solution here is just reversion of the Egi-Assaults to their SB state.
On the other hand, I see this as an opportunity and possibly even a step in the right direction for SMN... executed poorly. More than one complaint has been posed in the past about how pets felt like glorified DoTs prior to ShB, and the Egi command system was an attempt to make this more active; with a bit more of a hand's on rework, it might be something worth investing in.

So, let's start with the QoL appetizers:

• Summon Bahamut: Gone, as with Dreadwyrm Aether. Instead, Level 70's Improved Dreadwyrm Trance functions like Level 80's Improved Firebird Trance, automatically calling out Demi-Bahamut upon entering the Trance. (Improved Dreadwyrm Trance II is also removed.)
• While Dreadwyrm Trance is active, its activation button is automatically replaced with Deathflare.
• Enkindle Bahamut/Phoenix removed. While either Trance is active, Egi Assault 1 becomes Akh Morn/Revelation.
• Devotion is now usable while Demi-summons are active.
• Bane is merged with Painflare: Any affected targets that already had Bio OR Miasma active also receive unaspected damage from Bane; this damage does not increase with the number of active DoTs on the targets.
• All pet command skills (Egi Assaults, Enkindle and Aetherpact) are reworked: Instead of your pet executing the skill after its next auto-attack cast, the effect functions like an oGCD ability cast by the Summoner, centered on or being cast from the Egi's current location. Your Egi will instantly have its current action or animation interrupted to execute the command more quickly, and will resume when the command completes.
• Physick is replaced by Summon III while wearing a SMN Soul Crystal. (You know why.)

It's not a coincidence that these early parts are probably the least controversial aspects of this rework. Don't worry, there's plenty to scream about when we get down to... the meat and potatoes.

• Energy Drain has a 90 sec CD. Energy Siphon replaced with a trait to cause Energy Drain to inflict 40% of its damage to enemies within 5 yards of the target.
• Bane and Fester no longer consume Aetherflow. The two abilities now share 2 charges on a 20 sec recharge.
• Tri-Disaster removed: In its place, a trait that causes Fester to add to the duration of your Bio or Miasma on the target. Entering Trances will now reduce the cooldown of Bane/Fester.
• Egi Assault 1 and 2 no longer have charges and their CD is now 1 sec, but each now consume an Aetherflow to execute.
• All casts of Ruin and Outburst now have a low chance to restore an Aetherflow charge. The chance per target is higher for Ruin 1/3 and Fountain of Fire, but Outburst/Brand of Purgatory's chance scales with the number of targets struck.
• Entering Dreadwyrm Trance or Firebird Trance gives you a full stack of Dreadwyrm/Firebird Aether, which can be consumed like Aetherflow by Akh Morn/Revelation. Remaining Dreadwyrm/Firebird Aether fades when the Trance ends.
• New trait: Consuming an Aetherflow also reduces the cooldown of Enkindle.

All of the above are written under the assumption that potencies are compensated.
And for the finishing touches:

Ifrit-Egi:

• Egi Assault 2 has reduced damage, but now applies a DoT to all affected targets.
• Enkindle no longer applies a DoT to affected targets and deals diminishing damage to peripheral targets, but has increased damage on the main target.

Garuda-Egi:

• Egi Assault 2 has a limit of 1 instance active at a time; recasting will replace the active instance.

Titan-Egi:

• Egi Assault 2 now stuns all affected targets.
• Enemies caught within the marked area of Enkindle also suffer 50% Leaden and 20% Slow.

I don't see any problem with Titan-Egi's current position as the Solo/Survivability Egi, I simply think it needs more tools than just a barrier in order to execute that effectively. The other changes are largely to accompany the Aetherflow changes, to encourage alternating abilities with the situation.

Now, to defend myself from the imminent assault:

Firstly, I did state a goal here was to make the rotation less busy, and that's largely between the competition of Aetherflow and Egi Assaults. By making the two no longer a competition, it not only reduces the total number of off-GCDs and buttons being slammed, but also ties some of the disconnected elements of the kit back together.

Second, I carefully considered the impact this would have on off-GCDs. After my initial attempt to write this rework, I realized that making the Egi Assault skills the only means of consuming Aetherflow meant that you were overflowing with Aetherflow during Trances with no means to spend them, and spending Aetherflow out of trances when you lack the off-GCDs. This is why I left Ruin IV untouched, and made special note that you can regain Aetherflow through applying your DoTs; not only does this make having your DoTs on significant (and encourage you to be mindful of when you cast Fester to get its full benefits), but if you're very careful, the casting of Bio also gives you that one open GCD you need to kick off an Assault chain. And of course, allowing the use of Egi Assault 1 to consume Aetherflow during Trances encourages you to be mindful of how you stock them.

As an aside, I would also like to propose additional Egi Glamours:

First note: Unlike Carbuncles, each of the following Egi Glamours are assumed to be unique to one type of Egi each. This is because, with most of them using very different toolkits, personalizing each one of their kits to fit every role would mean programming each Egi with 12 abilities, and it's already too much of a stretch in resources to get them to make the Glamours in the first place. Besides, how much sense does it make to give Ramuh access to all 3 roles when Ifrit's locked to one? None, I say.

All sample abilities are listed in order of: basic attack, Egi Assault I, Egi Assault II, Enkindle

Ifrit-Egi Glamours:

• Shiva-Egi: Icebrand, Heavenly Strike, Absolute Zero, Diamond Storm
• Sephirot-Egi: Solid Stone, Empty Hand, Genesis, Ein Sof Ohr
• Bismarck-Egi: Water Spout, Cetacean Rage, Baleen Bomb, Breach Blast
• Susano-Egi: Clash, Stormsplitter, Churning, Brightstorm

Titan-Egi Glamours:

• Leviathan-Egi: Wavespine, Gyre Spume, Tidal Roar, Whirlpool
• Sophia-Egi: Divine Spark, Cloudy Heavens, Gnosis, Quasar
• Ravana-Egi: Blinding Blade, Warlord Shell, Pillar of Heaven, Bloody Fuller
• Lakshmi-Egi: Pull of Light, Restored Vril, Divine Denial, Alluring Arm

Garuda-Egi Glamours:

• Ramuh-Egi: Thunderspark, Levinbolt, Thunderstorm, Judgement Bolt
• Zurvan-Egi: Metal Cutter, Flare Star, Southern Cross, Ahura-Mazda
• Shinryu-Egi: Earth Breath, Hypernova, Corrupted Aether, Protostar
• Tsukuyomi-Egi: Reprimand, Nightfall, Dancing Fan, Dance of the Dead

I imagine each would be better released as a three-pack. "Egi Glamours of A Realm Reborn", "Egi Glamours of the Warring Triad", "Egi Glamours of Heavensward" (including Shinryu), "Egi Glamours of Stormblood".
Or maybe better named "Egi Glamours of Eorzea", "Egi Glamours of Allag", "Egi Glamours of the North", and "Egi Glamours of"... well I guess Lakshmi throws off Othard, huh... "Rebellion"?

Concerning the imminent "Wait, why isn't Sephirot-Egi a glamour of Titan-Egi" questions and so forth: These particular arrangements were based on two factors.

One, examination of the actual fights from which most of these Primals came from. All of the choices under Titan-Egi have at least one fight mechanic that revolves around some type of barrier to break or invulnerability mechanic (in Leviathan's case it's Veil of the Whorl, but since BLU nabbed that, we're playing more creatively with visuals). Most of the choices under Garuda-Egi choices were noted to have a large number of unavoidable AoE mechanics, while most of the Ifrit-Egi choices have a larger degree of physicality (I qualify Bismarck body-slamming the island as "physicality").
Elements weren't a consideration largely because elemental typings are virtually cosmetic in the first place; without the elemental wheel there's no difference between aspected and unaspected magic damage, so we can assume some degree of flexibility in that regard.

Second, variety. Even in the current system you do not need to have all of your pets be either Egis or Carbuncles at the same time; inevitably there will be some mixing and matching involved. If we went with the obvious reskin every time, the visual differentiation between each Egi would have less impact. This way you can mix and match, or set up themed sets beyond just the Warring Triad.
Like your lady Primals, preferably with swords? Try Shiva, Lakshmi and Tsukuyomi.
Want a set of Lightning elementals? Susano, Sophia and Ramuh.
Want to rep your love of monsters? Bismarck, Leviathan and Shinryu.
Just like the color red? Ifrit, Ravana and Zurvan.
The list goes on. Play around with it.

I would also suggest adding Carbuncles, Il Mheg Pixies, and Moogles as alternative glamours for SCH Faeries, but that's for another thread.

If there is anything I missed in this rework, or anything that you particularly disagree with, I'm open to constructive criticism.

Fire away y'all.

First of all, I heavily disagree with the thing that keeps popping up: Merging DWT and bahamut.
That merge achieves the following things:
- A significant loss in flexibility, for both your mobility windows and the use of bahamut on AoE situations.
- It's a plain nerf to dealing with downtime. It'd feel bad in fights with downtime and dungeons.
- Less mobility in DWT/bahamut due to the nature of demi-summons (and you'll have to use it in a bad spot because delaying means losing more later on)
- Complete inability to weave egi assaults, enkindle and devotion in DWT (because bahamut means no egi is out), forcing more R2 uses.
To your credit, you at least granted a method to spend aetherflow stacks in DWT/bahamut by tying akh morn to it.

Now I see you want to delete tri-disaster, but if that wasn't gone, it'd also mean there remains a heavy incentive to use it on cooldown even if a slight drift would work better, else you drop your dots and are forced into an extra hardcast.
I don't like it when the use of our tools is at the mercy of fight design, I miss being in control.

This rant aside, control is not the focus of your designs, so I'll look a bit at what you did intend:

Your aetherflow changes look a bit weird, giving rise to some counter-intuitive design, mainly fester increasing dot duration, while aetherflow is generated off hardcasting dots only if the duration < 10s. It very much depends on the exact potencies what you want to do here, but I can see an issue crop up where you'd never want to use fester or your aetherflow stacks (outside demis), as their mechanics fight each other. I'd suggest you completely remove this aspect of AF generation. The other method at aetherflow generation increases the gap between R3 and R2 due to it not generating from R2 (as far as I understand), is this mobility penalty intended?

Depending on the tuning of this aetherflow gain, you'd probably still be double weaving a lot. This also ties in to the penalty for using r2, and you'll have to weave in r2 or r4 to get your egi assaults off. Of course, it's to be expected that you always have enough R4 procs for your egi assaults after the opener, since there is a chain going from aetherflow generation to egi assault into R4, which if you save up for the next aetherflow can be used to weave the next (2) egi assaults, which would then grant you 1-2 more R4s to use.
With fester on a 20s charge timer and trances reducing their cooldowns, you'd have 3-4 uses of fester per minute depending on how much the reduction is, if it's a reset (grant 1 charge), you'll still be using 4 ogcds per minute on current aetherflow skills.
Depending on how much aetherflow procs you can get, the overall CPM can be both lower and higher than it is currently. If the proc rate is low enough, you might not even want to use any egi assaults (with egis out), and stock all of it for demi-summons because risking not getting maximum ahk morns and revelations out might not be worth the gain of the egi assault + r4, even if you'd end up losing a proc overall.

I suggest you take a look at how things would work out in the rotation, the ideas are interesting at least, but still needs a lot of thought. The changes are also quite ambitious so I'd not think a target within this expansion is reasonable, it'd be an expansion-level rework.

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Originally Posted by Vulcwen

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Thanks for your reply! Pounding out the finer details are why these types of thread are made public, so we can collaborate on that and give fresh opinions.
To address a few of your points,

• First thing to consider with merging DWT and Bahamut: DWT would continue to reduce the cast time of Ruin 3 and Outburst. Additionally, you would skip straight from Dreadwyrm Trance to Firebird Trance, which does the same, and the ability to use Akh Morn means you can stock up Ruin 4 casts for when the Trance ends. Not too worried about being unable to use Egi Enkindle during Trances since its lengthy cooldown means you can easily line it up for use between Trances. Played right you could end up with higher mobility overall.
• As for Devotion, I agree. At the very least that should be usable while Demis are active and I'll be sure to add that.
• Ruin 2/4 continues to generate AF, but at a lower rate than Ruin 1/3 or Outburst. Part of it is to retain some penalty to using Ruin 2, part is to prevent chaining Egi Assaults too frequently. Sample values I had in mind were proc rates like 15%/target for Outburst, 20% for Ruin 2/4 and 30% for Ruin 3, but this is all adjustable (and I didn't want to get too caught up in that).
• Unpopular opinion, but... I'm not actually against SMN having an incentive to hardcast its DoTs at least once or twice per fight. At current, you're encouraged to use Tri-Disaster as a complete substitute for Bio and Miasma, which means the two are effectively dead weight and contribute to the clutter. Having Fester extend the durations of existing DoTs continues at least to provide a means to replicate Tri-Disaster (though admittedly I didn't write actual values for how long they would extend them).
• I had the same thoughts as I was writing it in terms of generating Aetherflow via Bio/Miasma. Initially I put it out of mind by considering that my phrasing was broad enough to encompass using Fester to refresh the DoTs if they were under 10s each, but I may just end up removing that method and returning Energy Drain on a longer CD so you have a means to start a fight with Aetherflow (as well as a safety net for bad RNG strings).
• As far as saving Aetherflow for Akh Morn or Revelation, one thing I had considered was that just activating a Trance gives you full Dreadwyrm Aether and Firebird Aether that only last while you're in the respective Trance, and function like Aetherflow with regards to Akh Morn and Revelation. Or possibly just changing AM/Rev to only function off Dreadwyrm/Firebird Aether.
• As to the thread title, "between now and next expansion", I meant to convey both possibilities of "Next Expanion's Rework" (which would encompass most if not all of the Aetherflow changes) and "anything that could be done for SMN before then" (which could include several of the Egi and QoL changes).

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

First thing to consider with merging DWT and Bahamut: DWT would continue to reduce the cast time of Ruin 3 and Outburst. Additionally, you would skip straight from Dreadwyrm Trance to Firebird Trance, which does the same, and the ability to use Akh Morn means you can stock up Ruin 4 casts for when the Trance ends. Not too worried about being unable to use Egi Enkindle during Trances since its lengthy cooldown means you can easily line it up for use between Trances. Played right you could end up with higher mobility overall.

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I think what Vulcwen means here is that the current nature of Demis makes it preferable not to move during Trances, because they might ghost Akh Morn / auto attacks if they prioritize moving. One quick fix would be making them Turret-like, rooted somewhere with a comfortable range on both auto-attacks and Akh Morn / Revelation.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

I think what Vulcwen means here is that the current nature of Demis makes it preferable not to move during Trances, because they might ghost Akh Morn / auto attacks if they prioritize moving. One quick fix would be making them Turret-like, rooted somewhere with a comfortable range on both auto-attacks and Akh Morn / Revelation.

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Well then, I would hope that this --

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

• Enkindle Bahamut/Phoenix removed. While either Trance is active, Egi Assault 1 becomes Akh Morn/Revelation.
• All pet command skills (Egi Assaults, Enkindle and Aetherpact) are reworked: Instead of your pet executing the skill after its next auto-attack cast, the effect functions like an oGCD ability cast by the Summoner, centered on or being cast from the Egi's current location. Your Egi will instantly have its current action or animation interrupted to execute the command more quickly, and will resume when the command completes.

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-- would suffice to address Akh Morn at least (though I admit I could remove the instance of "Egi" to replace it with the broader "pet"). That type of miracle distance from the boss would be hard to come by, considering they're ranged pets and don't immediately run into its melee range.

As far as auto-attacks... probably a dumb question, but do Demis even have auto-attacks? I was under the impression they only fired off Wyrmwave/Scarlet Flame as you attacked, and otherwise were lacking in that department.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

As far as auto-attacks... probably a dumb question, but do Demis even have auto-attacks? I was under the impression they only fired off Wyrmwave/Scarlet Flame as you attacked, and otherwise were lacking in that department.

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Sorry, yes that's what I mean, auto attacks are Wyrmwaves / Scarlet Flames. But the current design is crooked in the sense that you have to work around a "bug" to ensure 8 WW/SF per cycle because of the summoning animation possibly ghosting the first Ruin, so tying Auto Attacks to the SMN cast shows some problems. Tying them to oGCDs (like it used to be in StB) too would feel more bursty but the current oGCDs usage would be conflicting (as I guess we'd aim for 4 Festers and 1 ED).
While a pet that would auto attack on its own could be a solution, it might get queueing issues when we enkindle them... And having things get automatically done is boring (see MCH Queen Automaton).

I fear the broader problem is that pets just don't fit the FFXIV system, and that makes SMN pet interaction more of a hassle than anything really.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Sorry, yes that's what I mean, auto attacks are Wyrmwaves / Scarlet Flames. But the current design is crooked in the sense that you have to work around a "bug" to ensure 8 WW/SF per cycle because of the summoning animation possibly ghosting the first Ruin, so tying Auto Attacks to the SMN cast shows some problems. Tying them to oGCDs (like it used to be in StB) too would feel more bursty but the current oGCDs usage would be conflicting (as I guess we'd aim for 4 Festers and 1 ED).
While a pet that would auto attack on its own could be a solution, it might get queueing issues when we enkindle them... And having things get automatically done is boring (see MCH Queen Automaton).

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I still don't think that's really the issue that can be adjusted by the SMN's behavior though. The "auto-attacks" are instant and have a 100y range, so it seems like movement is not a remote concern for Demis since they shouldn't even have to stop to attack, and with DWT speeding up your Ruin casts you're in a more solid position to get the maximum number of hits out per summoning.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Sorry, yes that's what I mean, auto attacks are Wyrmwaves / Scarlet Flames. But the current design is crooked in the sense that you have to work around a "bug" to ensure 8 WW/SF per cycle because of the summoning animation possibly ghosting the first Ruin, so tying Auto Attacks to the SMN cast shows some problems. Tying them to oGCDs (like it used to be in StB) too would feel more bursty but the current oGCDs usage would be conflicting (as I guess we'd aim for 4 Festers and 1 ED).
While a pet that would auto attack on its own could be a solution, it might get queueing issues when we enkindle them... And having things get automatically done is boring (see MCH Queen Automaton).

I fear the broader problem is that pets just don't fit the FFXIV system, and that makes SMN pet interaction more of a hassle than anything really.

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Couldn't all that be resolved by simply building a Summoner-side queue instantly? We have other effects that technically check for and receive their benefits before the animations of the abilities that generate those effects even start (Greased Lightning comes most immediately to mind), so why not mimic those? At that point we wouldn't have to wait for the Bahamut/Phoenix's creation for it to start receiving benefits. It'd already be queued up, to multiple stacks/uses maximum. This would also prevent the Bahamut/Phoenix from losing casts to ghosting from multiple skills clipped.

Heck, that's all assuming we leave Egis (and Baha/Phoe) in their current worst-of-both-worlds state where they have all the delay of the former version of pets but have no HP and therefore cannot tank, count towards stacking mechanics (technically not doable for quite a while now, but you get the point), etc. If we truly exploit the fact that they longer have HP, and therefore aren't really even units, or find improvement opportunities elsewhere, we could remove the ghosting and delay issues universally.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Couldn't all that be resolved by simply building a Summoner-side queue instantly? We have other effects that technically check for and receive their benefits before the animations of the abilities that generate those effects even start (Greased Lightning comes most immediately to mind), so why not mimic those? At that point we wouldn't have to wait for the Bahamut/Phoenix's creation for it to start receiving benefits. It'd already be queued up, to multiple stacks/uses maximum. This would also prevent the Bahamut/Phoenix from losing casts to ghosting from multiple skills clipped.

Heck, that's all assuming we leave Egis (and Baha/Phoe) in their current worst-of-both-worlds state where they have all the delay of the former version of pets but have no HP and therefore cannot tank, count towards stacking mechanics (technically not doable for quite a while now, but you get the point), etc. If we truly exploit the fact that they longer have HP, and therefore aren't really even units, or find improvement opportunities elsewhere, we could remove the ghosting and delay issues universally.

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I'm not tech confident enough to know what is doabl and what is not, but from what I understand yes, it should be similar to Greased Lightning in the sense that pushing "Summon Bahamut" then any Ruin or Enkindle shoudl be queued and not skipped like it is currently the case.
For Egis, they are not units per se, but things coming from the Summoner is conflicting with thing coming from the Egi, so I'm a bit confused. Like in the opener we press multiple Egi Assaults and Enkindle and Devotion, and this can lead to "Cannot execute while pet is doing another task"... WHICH ONE?!

I think Egi Assaults should be oGCDs that can be used during SMN casts, but I don't know if it's possible. I certainly don't want to fall back on StB pet actions that you could use during a cast BUT you had to press the button 5 times before they were actually used.

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Originally Posted by Vulcwen

First of all, I heavily disagree with the thing that keeps popping up: Merging DWT and bahamut.
That merge achieves the following things:
- A significant loss in flexibility, for both your mobility windows and the use of bahamut on AoE situations.
- It's a plain nerf to dealing with downtime. It'd feel bad in fights with downtime and dungeons.
- Less mobility in DWT/bahamut due to the nature of demi-summons (and you'll have to use it in a bad spot because delaying means losing more later on)
- Complete inability to weave egi assaults, enkindle and devotion in DWT (because bahamut means no egi is out), forcing more R2 uses.

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I would imagine the issues with merging DWT and Bahamut (something I also agree needs to be done, along with the consolidation of Egi-Assaults, to make the job's rotation feel less bloated and spammy) is something that could be solved by them just removing the leash on Bahamut and Pheonix from the player. Fray doesn't follow their Dark Knight all over the field. The Automaton Queen doesn't follow the MCH. I do understand that neither of them do actions based on the user's actions, but this still feels like it would not in anyway interfere with just letting us call a Demi Summon, that demi summon pops out, and then doesn't move from the spot. I understand that would then cause issues with "What if your enemies move out of range?" Well one Demi's range is bigger then anything in this game, and even if it wasn't, that can just be something Players would need to take into account. Black Mage has to take range into effect when dropping Ley Lines. Should be nothing stopping a Summoner from having to plan their useage of summon positioning as well.

Also as for rotational flexibility, their really is none on Summoner already in any actual significant fights. If you're delaying DWT for mobility moments, that means you're delaying Summoning Bahamut, which means your Delaying Summoning Pheonix. Which means you're doing less damage, I can understand dungeon concerns, but every jobs rotation gets screwy in dungeons. Right now the only place Summoner really feels ok in is dungeons (which makes me wonders if the majority of it's playtesting occurs in dungeons). True rotational and downtime flexibility will only come if they give us back untargeting Aetherflow and retie the Demi and trance cycles to the Aetherflow cycle. And at this point Aetherflow is really beginning to feel like a dated mechanic anyway.

Also want to say, even if I don't agree with 60% of the options being presented, I love that these Summoner rework ideas keep popping up from different names day in and day out. It means that players WANT SOMETHING DIFFERENT. They are not pleased with current Summoner and just simple buffs isn't going to magically get them to be happy with it again