Possible issue: Disparity with Living Dead and tank max HP

It seems now, with tanks having even greater HP pools in comparison to the amount of healing a healer can do on average, that Living Dead sometimes becomes unhealable.

I started to notice this when leveling in duty finder at the start of the expansion. A lot of the time if I used LD and Walking Dead proced, I would just die. Some of the time it was due to healers simply not knowing what it was, but other times a healer would be spamming heals on me and still couldn't meet the healing amount required. It seems particularly hard on Scholar for most of the leveling process since Lustrate is about all they have if Excog/Recitation isn't up, and Astrologian can also struggle too without an Essential Dignity up.

I ran Malikah's Well and Mt. Gulg a few times with a healer friend that I'd consider to be above average-good in terms of skill, they are easily capable of healing wall-to-wall pulls in any content, have experience in savage, etc. If they didn't have their oGCDs available or some sort of burst healing available, it was actually impossible for them to heal enough to keep me alive if I went Walking during a trash pull. On more than one occasion I ended up dying even with them knowing it was going to pop and immediately spamming GCD heals. They needed to at least have some form of oGCD heal available, or multiple even.

This seems to be a bit of a design issue, since tank HP has been pushed to nearly double what it was last expansion, but obviously healing hasn't increased to that level yet. In other MMOs, there were some cases I can remember of mechanics that involved healing to max HP where tanks would intentionally keep their max HP lower than it could be due to issues like these. In FFXIV, though, it is impossible to lower your max HP intentionally without using lower ilvl gear so this is unfeasible.

Hopefully the dev team is foreseeing this issue and thinking of a way to counteract it.

If someone has done the hard math on this, I would be happy for them to post it, to know if this has any consequences down the road at level cap as well.

I don't have any experience healing, and not a lot of experience with DRK. That being said, just hearing what other people are saying about this skill, and reading the tool tip, it seems very situational. It seems like this is an 'oh sh!t!' button that needs to be coordinated with the healer, which is hard to do considering the circumstances an 'oh sh!t!' button would be needed. Alternatively, it makes sense that this skill would need to be used just before a tank buster or something that you know is going to kill the DRK.

It just seems like healing to full health is difficult to do sometimes unless conditions are perfectly planned. 10 seconds isn't a lot of time to react, after all. Maybe this skill made more sense when DRK had that one heal spam skill that people say was lost/taken away in SB.

As a newish player, this skill doesn't make a lot of sense for me to use, ever. The reward does not seem to justify the risk of tank death.

Living dead was garbage at the start and now it's even worse !
It's only useful if a White mage is ready to spell "benediction" (insta heal + full HP).
As you said, how can à healer can give you around 50 000 hp in 10sec ?
I have a macro :
p) Sole survivor on me, heal me to full hp if at 1 hp

Most of the time, it's a fail...

So if the only surefire way to heal DRK from 1 HP to Full HP is WHM benediction, then the DRK is not only reliant on a WHM being in the party, but also on said WHM to have benediction ready and not have to wait on recast. So this sounds like it has to be a perfect condition again. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like if you are expecting the DRK to take enough damage to kill it, making living dead useful, then perhaps things are not going so well in the fight and their is a big chance that WHM has already used benediction. Seems like DRK living dead requires too much pre-planning to be worth using at all.

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Originally Posted by HumanNinjaToo

I don't have any experience healing, and not a lot of experience with DRK. That being said, just hearing what other people are saying about this skill, and reading the tool tip, it seems very situational. It seems like this is an 'oh sh!t!' button that needs to be coordinated with the healer, which is hard to do considering the circumstances an 'oh sh!t!' button would be needed. Alternatively, it makes sense that this skill would need to be used just before a tank buster or something that you know is going to kill the DRK.

It just seems like healing to full health is difficult to do sometimes unless conditions are perfectly planned. 10 seconds isn't a lot of time to react, after all. Maybe this skill made more sense when DRK had that one heal spam skill that people say was lost/taken away in SB.

As a newish player, this skill doesn't make a lot of sense for me to use, ever. The reward does not seem to justify the risk of tank death.

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There is no such thing as an "oh shit" button. It's an immunity cooldown. You use them to trivialize certain mechanics (eating a stack solo, taking multiple of an unsurvivable hit, etc) or to give healers time to do whatever they want or DPS instead of needing to heal the tank. They're really useful for dungeons because there are a lot of situations where a healer might not even have to heal you for most of a pull at all if you use them correctly. The last reason you want to use an immunity is for an "oh shit" situation because that means something went catastrophically wrong somewhere else.

Living Dead has, until recently, always been one of the better immunities since it has a very long duration (over 10 seconds of "immunity" most of the time since the healer knows they can just let you drop), it allows you to move (when Holmgang used to root you), and the condition to resolve it is something that had to be done anyways: healing (minus Hallowed Ground).

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Originally Posted by HumanNinjaToo

So if the only surefire way to heal DRK from 1 HP to Full HP is WHM benediction, then the DRK is not only reliant on a WHM being in the party, but also on said WHM to have benediction ready and not have to wait on recast. So this sounds like it has to be a perfect condition again. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like if you are expecting the DRK to take enough damage to kill it, making living dead useful, then perhaps things are not going so well in the fight and their is a big chance that WHM has already used benediction. Seems like DRK living dead requires too much pre-planning to be worth using at all.

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No. It's healing them for the value of their maximum HP. They do not need to be healed to full HP. If they have 110k HP max, are at 1 HP, get healed for 55k, take a hit down to 30k, get healed for another 55k, that's a total of of 110k and the debuff will be removed, for example.

Anyways, the topic is whether or not there is too much disparity between GCD healing and tank max HP right now, not whether or not Living Dead should exist (it should). If you don't understand the topic, usually better to not respond. You have very little understanding of how tank immunity is used or how Living Dead works.

Living Dead, much like all the tank invuln abilities, are generally planned use, not emergency use like some think they would be.
When your healers know it is coming in advance, it is much easier to react to.

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Originally Posted by YojimboM

There is no such thing as an "oh shit" button. It's an immunity cooldown. You use them trivial certain mechanics (eating a stack solo, taking multiple of an unsurvivable hit, etc) or to give healers time to do whatever they want or DPS instead of needing to heal the tank. They're really useful for dungeons because there are a lot of situations where a healer might not even have to heal you for most of a pull at all if you use them correctly. The last reason you want to use an immunity is for an "oh shit" situation because that means something went catastrophically wrong somewhere else.

Living Dead has, until recently, always been one of the better immunities since it has a very long duration (over 10 seconds of "immunity" most of the time since the healer knows they can just let you drop), it allows you to move (when Holmgang used to root you), and the condition to resolve it is something that had to be done anyways: healing (minus Hallowed Ground).



No. It's healing them for the value of their maximum HP. They do not need to be healed to full HP. If they have 110k HP max, are at 1 HP, get healed for 55k, take a hit down to 30k, get healed for another 55k, that's a total of of 110k and the debuff will be removed, for example.

Anyways, the topic is whether or not there is too much disparity between GCD healing and tank max HP right now, not whether or not Living Dead should exist (it should). If you don't understand the topic, usually better to not respond. You have very little understanding of how tank immunity is used or how Living Dead works.

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Well if disparity is the topic at hand, then yes, disparity exists. It's the only tank invul skill that requires someone else to make it work. Pretty much the only way to make the skill work is to have a WHM in the party that is communicating well with the DRK, which pretty much rules out all usefulness of living dead with 99% of pugs. If DRK cannot self-heal through it (which it can't), and the disparity between living dead and gcd's is so great (which you've already admitted to yourself), then maybe it should not exist after all.

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Originally Posted by YojimboM

No. It's healing them for the value of their maximum HP. They do not need to be healed to full HP. If they have 110k HP max, are at 1 HP, get healed for 55k, take a hit down to 30k, get healed for another 55k, that's a total of of 110k and the debuff will be removed, for example.

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In DF, you'll have to find a good healer to do that in just 10 sec...
And don't be salty, Dark knight is my main since heavensward.

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Originally Posted by YojimboM

No. It's healing them for the value of their maximum HP. They do not need to be healed to full HP. If they have 110k HP max, are at 1 HP, get healed for 55k, take a hit down to 30k, get healed for another 55k, that's a total of of 110k and the debuff will be removed, for example.

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In DF, you'll have to find a good healer to do that in just 10 sec...
And don't be salty, Dark knight is my main since heavensward.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Living Dead, much like all the tank invuln abilities, are generally planned use, not emergency use like some think they would be.
When your healers know it is coming in advance, it is much easier to react to.

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I feel like this is missed a lot when people talk about trying to nerf Hallowed Ground lol. Probably have done this myself too (miss the importance of planned groups). Holmgang fine, LD sucks, Hallowed Ground needs to be nerfed even more.. and I cri XD. When the team is prepared for the skill, as you already mentioned, it can make LD pretty nice because of how it works (timer starts on "death" rather than as soon as it's pressed). The lower cooldown ultimates also being nice for planning. Hallowed Ground just looks really cool and works smoothly in PUGs (probably most of the people who comment here, including myself to be honest).

Not that I'm opposed to making LD or whatever else smoother to use and more satisfying/solo "feeling". I'm not inherently against changes to LD and I can totally see how the skill could be frustrating (like casting benediction and then your tank uses Superboilde XD), just felt this perspective is sometimes missed and often leads to HG getting more credit than it deserves.. putting it in line to be nerfed all the time lol.

LD usage on Titania made me swap to GNB for subsequent pulls. Two healers couldn't get me up with their OGCDs, which then forced them into GCD's, and even then it was still a 50/50 shot if I was surviving.

And I don't like forcing healers to GCD heal when I could pick a different tank where they don't have to, it's just lost damage at that point.

The only reason I raid on DRK is because I'm biased to a fault in enjoying the rest of the class, and we have a WHM. Even if being DRK locks the WHM's benediction to only me and never anyone else in an encounter. Though if I do use it somewhere unplanned, because the other option is to die anyway, there's 0 chance I'll be brought up enough and I'll just explode to Walking Dead... which doesn't feel particularly good.

Whereas if I was WAR/GNB all I'd need is one OGCD, maybe two pending on incoming damage, and regens can handle the rest. (+ Nascent Flash/Aurora). And WAR/GNB/PLD don't require a specific healer to work.

DRK's LD, by comparison, just sucks in utility like a blackhole and it has no way to mitigate the healing required on its own (no conva anymore, no inherent healing on its own besides the paltry amount from souleater/1 abyssal drain on ST).

Good lord lol. Well I remember it being good in the past but that you have to use so many oGCD is not great :p. I haven't played it as much as I did a long while ago- before the huge hp.

Before it was pretty easy to get healed up to. Since I only, almost, play PUG these days I just avoid the skill since it seems like a good way to die. Although when I had a white mage who was ready it was easy to use and really smooth with good duration, easy activation, and low cooldown.

Would people be willing to add some cooldown or lower duration for a more convenient effect?

Some changes with similar theme maybe:

• If you're not healed to 50% or 75% health by the end you receive weakness debuff instead of death
  
• Or up to X% of your max health will be contained in damage and then dealt back to you over 10 seconds

I can imagine a more simple change, but one that if too strong will make LD too good, is that while under the effect you have increased healing (like warrior with thrill has).

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Good lord lol. Well I remember it being good in the past but that you have to use so many oGCD is not great :p. I haven't played it as much as I did a long while ago- before the huge hp.

Before it was pretty easy to get healed up to. Since I only, almost, play PUG I just avoid the skill since it seems like a good way to die. Although when I had a white mage who was ready it was easy to use and really smooth with good duration, easy activation, and low cooldown.

Would people be willing to add some cooldown or lower duration for a more convenient effect?

Like-

• If you're not healed to 50% or 75% health by the end you receive weakness debuff instead of death
  
• Or up to X% of your max health will be contained in damage and then dealt back to you over 10 seconds

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Seems like something could be done to make the skill better or more useful. My issue with living dead, and seems other people's issues with it, are that it nearly requires there to be a WHM in the party with the DRK.

Living dead isn't really even needed in content below level 70, maybe there are one or two exceptions to this. At that higher level content, healers are usually leaned on to provide some type of DPS with their GCD's so the group can meet damage checks, right? Which leaves them to be using their oGCD's to heal the group. So when the other tank invuln skills work better with all healers in general, it's kind of crappy that DRK leans so much on a WHM.

I don't believe all tanks should be dumbed down to be basic copies of each other, or anything like that, but it would be nice if DRK could somehow deal with consequences of a failed living dead by itself, in some other way than death. As you suggested, a debuff wouldn't be a bad idea. Or maybe giving the DRK a higher potency self-heal, or something, so that living dead becomes a skill more viable to use with the other two healers.

imo Living Dead was always a terrible invuln, because its a black hole for healer's resources. But the extra hp brought with ShB has made it worse.

I think it needs to be changed to require healing equivalent to 75% of the tank's hp. Maybe even just 50%.

I absolutely HATE Living Dead. It's the worst out of all the tank invulns by a large margin and is generally a suicide button unless you have a White Mage with Benediction primed and actively paying attention or knows its coming. Unless i'm tanking Titania EX I remove it from my bar just in case I accidentally press it and wipe everyone.

EDIT: An idea I saw in the tank forums I liked that someone else posted was to remove it's healing requirement completely, and give complete control to the DRK by allowing them to press the button a second time to exit the Walking Dead state before the timer expires or you die. That way it retains its identify as a skill, removes the pressure on the healers, and gives control to the DRK using the skill.

Living dead was always a pain. Short of having a WHM benediction it's always been a waste of healer ressources compared to the other tank invulns. Now, it's really hard to heal up as SCH. Takes at the very least an excog, emergency tactics + recitation + adlo, and a couple lustrates to get anywhere. And if you don't have ressources available, GCD spamming by itself is simply not enough as you only have 4 gcds in that 10s window and currently that's about 100k hp so you're still short something like 30k (and that's assuming you have recitation and ET up). The usual solution is simply to not use it in solo healing content which isn't too hard. And to just grit your teeth through it if you need to use it without benediction in dual healer scenarios.

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Originally Posted by YojimboM

There is no such thing as an "oh shit" button. It's an immunity cooldown. You use them trivial certain mechanics (eating a stack solo, taking multiple of an unsurvivable hit, etc) or to give healers time to do whatever they want or DPS instead of needing to heal the tank. They're really useful for dungeons because there are a lot of situations where a healer might not even have to heal you for most of a pull at all if you use them correctly. The last reason you want to use an immunity is for an "oh shit" situation because that means something went catastrophically wrong somewhere else.

Living Dead has, until recently, always been one of the better immunities since it has a very long duration (over 10 seconds of "immunity" most of the time since the healer knows they can just let you drop), it allows you to move (when Holmgang used to root you), and the condition to resolve it is something that had to be done anyways: healing (minus Hallowed Ground).

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I generally agree with most of what is said here. It is better used in certain circumstances and shouldnt be seen only as an "Oh Ship!" button. However, as an invuln, it is a lot more hit and miss, and that I dont think is good for the type of skill. Unlike Holm or Superbolide, you need to have been healed to your HP equivilant or you die. This does not happen with with the other two. Its all or nothing, unlike the other two mentioned invulns. As a invuln, this makes it extremely unforgiving and deters its use in non coordinated groups due to the likely hood of the tank dying regardless. This gets worse in 4 man groups, because at least in 8 mans you have 2 healers to pump you up (if you dont have a WHM). This all or nothing tradeoff I dont think justifies the length.

Of the invulns, I dont quite agree its the best. It certainly is with a WHM on hand, but not having one makes it a lot weaker IMO.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Living Dead, much like all the tank invuln abilities, are generally planned use, not emergency use like some think they would be.
When your healers know it is coming in advance, it is much easier to react to.

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But this is the core problem in the skill. If its consistent successful use of the skill is reliant on coordination, this is not a good thing for the skill in question. Whether people like it or not, sometimes invulns are used as Oh Ship buttons and in that regards, its one of hte weaker Invulns if it requires good coordination to operate correctly (outside of Bene). If the argument is "Well we're talking about savage" then its a skill that is tuned specifically for a smaller subset of the player base.

Im not saying "Nerf other Invulns." and I dont know how you would address this disparity between LD and other Invulns in this regard. If it's perfectly fine in Savage but difficult to use effectively in more mid tier content, I think that is an issue. This makes it inherently weaker overall compared to other invulns. Take into account that for Savage content, its usually saved for Busters which happen in the course of 3-5 seconds at most. Having hte longer time frame once in LD state isnt ultra beneficial unless you have a WHM where they can use one skill to restore your HP where other casters have to start casting sooner to heal you and dont get benefit out of it from that regard I think. In any case, It might be a simple issue of not making healers heal for what would amount to 100% of the HP pool, but drop that number down to 80%.

One of the other issues with Living Dead is that not only do you need to recover all their HP over the 10 second time period, that invuln goes away the MOMENT they get that healing. So many times I've seen Living Dead used for multi-hit mechanics, we burst heals on them ensure they don't die from it falling off... only to have them get one-shot because we removed it too SOON.

With two healers it's very manageable and it's mostly used in savage and you're prepped for it with a Bene. Outside savage WHMs can heal a DK out of walking dead if they get good crits or if they have PoM up as a defensive CD. AST probably has it easier as a single healer if you're not counting Bene because they have a 40% heal increase with ED, still takes like 3-4 GCDs but it's definitely better than SCH or a WHM without a Bene. I've personally never had to heal someone out of walking dead with only temperance so no comment there.

I switched to PLD for that very reason along with other DRK issues. It pretty much requires you to have a WHM with you or use it in the most dire moments, but lets be real here, not everyone has 50 or less ping so most times you are going to pop it at less than 30k hp.

I think an adjustment in the near future is certain. I think the idea around LD is that in the worst case scenario, it'll take any healer about 3 gcds to get the DRK out of WD.

In an ideal situation, invul skills are planned so healers can act accordingly, but we all know that this isn't always the case. While the exception should hardly ever be the rule, I do wonder if any flags have been raised on the dev end with the ratio of increased tank HP to the HPS from our healers.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

With two healers it's very manageable and it's mostly used in savage and you're prepped for it with a Bene. Outside savage WHMs can heal a DK out of walking dead if they get good crits or if they have PoM up as a defensive CD. AST probably has it easier as a single healer if you're not counting Bene because they have a 40% heal increase with ED, still takes like 3-4 GCDs but it's definitely better than SCH or a WHM without a Bene. I've personally never had to heal someone out of walking dead with only temperance so no comment there.

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Having the heals prepped for it trivializes the issue with it completely. But, it shouldn't be exclusively useful in a dual healer or pre-planned setting. Without the communication, it's just too difficult for a regular DF healer to keep up with it anymore it seems. Even prepared for it, sometimes it's impossible like I mentioned in the OP. I've told healers I'm going to LD and to just let me drop, they do it, then they can't meet the healing requirement in those 10 seconds. It's usually SCHs that seems to struggle with it the most.

Living Dead is brilliant in Titania EX, for dealing with either multiple tethers, or Fae Light. It's predictable and covers a huge amount of time in comparison to other invulns.
Unfortunately, that's one of the very few places you can use it.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Living Dead is brilliant in Titania EX, for dealing with either multiple tethers, or Fae Light. It's predictable and covers a huge amount of time in comparison to other invulns.
Unfortunately, that's one of the very few places you can use it.

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The problem is not its use, is its resolving.

As it has already been said, it's not that much of a problem if it is planned in a raid context. It's more that it feels more punishing on AST and SCH, because they have to keep some healing resources just for this when a WHM can just Bene it away. Especially now that healing has been nerfed.
Especially in a raid context where you have to deal with several things at the same time (double Tank Busters, raid wide damage incoming and such).

But I guess that's part of it...

not every skill needs to be identically usefull, at least it keeps you alive for a moment longer and most deaths happen because people simply do not know what that skill does.

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Originally Posted by YojimboM

It's usually SCHs that seems to struggle with it the most.

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That's really strange, considering that you can restore a lot of health on a single target with 3 lustrates - plus the fairy chipping in, unless for some reason they all never happen to have used dissipation, or aetherflow...

As a healer, there are a few ways that I deal with Living Dead.

1.) WHM: Benediction - this is the only way that will instantly clear the debuff.
2.) WHM: Pre-cast Regen (timing based on how quickly the tank's HP is going down - usually estimating ~1GCD before the debuff occurs) > Tetragrammaton > Afflatus Solace > Thin Air > Presence of Mind > Swiftcast (optional) > Cure II until debuff is cleared
3.) AST: Pre-cast Earthly Star (timing for Giant Dominance on detonation) > Lucid Dreaming > Diurnal Aspected Benefic (same as WHM Regen timing) > Essential Dignity > Lightspeed > Essential Dignity > Swiftcast + Benefic II > hard cast Benefic II until debuff is cleared.

SCH I don't really play often, so I don't have a good answer for how SCH can deal with the Walking Dead debuff. Obviously solutions 2 and 3 are... less than ideal, but they do work with a relatively high degree of success.

Lightspeed > Swiftcast > Benefic II is redundant.
Also with those two ED's before, and Lightspeed, all being oGCDs, you could easily fit another Benefic II in there.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Lightspeed > Swiftcast > Benefic II is redundant.
Also with those two ED's before, and Lightspeed, all being oGCDs, you could easily fit another Benefic II in there.

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That's fair. Lightspeed in that rotation could feasibly be moved to after the Swiftcast + Benefic II for better effect, and a Benefic II put in Lightspeed's position.

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Originally Posted by AuraAstra

That's fair. Lightspeed in that rotation could feasibly be moved to after the Swiftcast + Benefic II for better effect, and a Benefic II put in Lightspeed's position.

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I would cut the Swiftcast entirely, Lightspeed lasts the duration of Walking Dead, and likely Living Dead before it too.
You might need it for a raise if you fail.

I used it by accident once, but it was a situation where I couldn't die anyway. Therefore I have never purposely used it. If I die, I die.

DRKs lost convalescence, so just slap it into walking dead by default. (Healers now have to heal 20% more, unlike before.)
Thats just to be back on stormbloods level.
Of course u need more to match the increased HP, with lack of increased healing.
(We also lost Blood Bath from 3.0)

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Originally Posted by AuraAstra

As a healer, there are a few ways that I deal with Living Dead.

1.) WHM: Benediction - this is the only way that will instantly clear the debuff.
2.) WHM: Pre-cast Regen (timing based on how quickly the tank's HP is going down - usually estimating ~1GCD before the debuff occurs) > Tetragrammaton > Afflatus Solace > Thin Air > Presence of Mind > Swiftcast (optional) > Cure II until debuff is cleared
3.) AST: Pre-cast Earthly Star (timing for Giant Dominance on detonation) > Lucid Dreaming > Diurnal Aspected Benefic (same as WHM Regen timing) > Essential Dignity > Lightspeed > Essential Dignity > Swiftcast + Benefic II > hard cast Benefic II until debuff is cleared.

SCH I don't really play often, so I don't have a good answer for how SCH can deal with the Walking Dead debuff. Obviously solutions 2 and 3 are... less than ideal, but they do work with a relatively high degree of success.

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Planned Living Dead is easy. Excog -> Recitation+ET+Adloq -> Lustrate to finish. Excog is 40k~, ET Critlo is 50k~. Most of the way done just with those two. Then a Lustrate and maybe a Physik if required. Union too.

For unplanned, like overpulled trash its much the same as above. I tend not to waste Recitation on trash early in a pull since its usually the latter half of the pack that gets dangerous when Tank cooldowns run out.
But I also do not use Energy Drain, ever. So I always have some AFs to burn when required. In the event of the fan receiving an inordinate amount of fecal matter, There's always Dissipation and triple Lustrate. We have 10 seconds to deal with it, and theres a LOT of healing we can do in 10 seconds. Worst possible case is none of the above available and we still have Dissipation into Physik -> Lustrate -> Physik -> Lustrate -> Physik -> Lustrate -> Physik. At around 15k~ per Physik and 20k for each Lustrate, just that is enough to clear it off.

Its really not hard.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Planned Living Dead is easy. Excog -> Recitation+ET+Adloq -> Lustrate to finish. Excog is 40k~, ET Critlo is 50k~. Most of the way done just with those two. Then a Lustrate and maybe a Physik if required. Union too.

For unplanned, like overpulled trash its much the same as above. I tend not to waste Recitation on trash early in a pull since its usually the latter half of the pack that gets dangerous when Tank cooldowns run out.
But I also do not use Energy Drain, ever. So I always have some AFs to burn when required. In the event of the fan receiving an inordinate amount of fecal matter, There's always Dissipation and triple Lustrate. We have 10 seconds to deal with it, and theres a LOT of healing we can do in 10 seconds. Worst possible case is none of the above available and we still have Dissipation into Physik -> Lustrate -> Physik -> Lustrate -> Physik -> Lustrate -> Physik. At around 15k~ per Physik and 20k for each Lustrate, just that is enough to clear it off.

Its really not hard.

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Thank you. As I said, SCH is not really my class, so I don't have as good a handle on the possibilities in 10s as I do with WHM.

The point, regardless, remains the same - as long as the healer is even halfway competent at their class, there are always ways to handle the debuff sufficiently. It might not be pretty, and it might not be mana-or-cooldown-efficient, but it's really not as much of an issue as the OP seems to think it is.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Planned Living Dead is easy. Excog -> Recitation+ET+Adloq -> Lustrate to finish. Excog is 40k~, ET Critlo is 50k~. Most of the way done just with those two. Then a Lustrate and maybe a Physik if required. Union too.

For unplanned, like overpulled trash its much the same as above. I tend not to waste Recitation on trash early in a pull since its usually the latter half of the pack that gets dangerous when Tank cooldowns run out.
But I also do not use Energy Drain, ever. So I always have some AFs to burn when required. In the event of the fan receiving an inordinate amount of fecal matter, There's always Dissipation and triple Lustrate. We have 10 seconds to deal with it, and theres a LOT of healing we can do in 10 seconds. Worst possible case is none of the above available and we still have Dissipation into Physik -> Lustrate -> Physik -> Lustrate -> Physik -> Lustrate -> Physik. At around 15k~ per Physik and 20k for each Lustrate, just that is enough to clear it off.

Its really not hard.

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Youre blowing your entire aetherpool on one tank mechanic, and you need to lustrate 3 times so you better hope you have a full pool or aetherpact up for it. It's not to say that this doesnt work. It does, it just that for the mechanic to resolve, you have to go a lot farther for it to be functional compared to other tank invulns. Thats teh crux of the issue. The effort/reward for the skill is heavily unbalanced compared to SB, HG, and Holm. It simply as an invuln is extremely inflexible and heavily punishing to both tank and healer.

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Originally Posted by AuraAstra

Thank you. As I said, SCH is not really my class, so I don't have as good a handle on the possibilities in 10s as I do with WHM.

The point, regardless, remains the same - as long as the healer is even halfway competent at their class, there are always ways to handle the debuff sufficiently. It might not be pretty, and it might not be mana-or-cooldown-efficient, but it's really not as much of an issue as the OP seems to think it is.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Planned Living Dead is easy. Excog -> Recitation+ET+Adloq -> Lustrate to finish. Excog is 40k~, ET Critlo is 50k~. Most of the way done just with those two. Then a Lustrate and maybe a Physik if required. Union too.

For unplanned, like overpulled trash its much the same as above. I tend not to waste Recitation on trash early in a pull since its usually the latter half of the pack that gets dangerous when Tank cooldowns run out.
But I also do not use Energy Drain, ever. So I always have some AFs to burn when required. In the event of the fan receiving an inordinate amount of fecal matter, There's always Dissipation and triple Lustrate. We have 10 seconds to deal with it, and theres a LOT of healing we can do in 10 seconds. Worst possible case is none of the above available and we still have Dissipation into Physik -> Lustrate -> Physik -> Lustrate -> Physik -> Lustrate -> Physik. At around 15k~ per Physik and 20k for each Lustrate, just that is enough to clear it off.

Its really not hard.

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In addition to what has been said right above. This also overlooks the fact that you would not have dissipation up in most unplanned scenarios as you would be using it pretty frequently in a personally optimized setting (using dissipation every other pack in dungeons, and close to cooldown in raids). A good SCH will always have some stacks handy but rarely a full 3 stacks AND either recitation or excog. You'd have to be really un-optimized or it's clear the tank is squishy AF and something's going to go sideways so they hold onto everything.

Besides, again, even if you stock up on everything and keep your tank alive, it's such a ridiculous amount of ressources for one invuln mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Youre blowing your entire aetherpool on one tank mechanic, and you need to lustrate 3 times so you better hope you have a full pool or aetherpact up for it. It's not to say that this doesnt work. It does, it just that for the mechanic to resolve, you have to go a lot farther for it to be functional compared to other tank invulns. Thats teh crux of the issue. The effort/reward for the skill is heavily unbalanced compared to SB, HG, and Holm. It simply as an invuln is extremely inflexible and heavily punishing to both tank and healer.

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Effort? It's a 3 minute cooldown and then 4 GCDs and 3 oGCDs. Its basically Benediction but with a bit more effort.

The 'effort' in Living Dead is its 10 second grace period on activation followed by 10 seconds of relative safety, something no other Tank invuln has.
Superbolide is 8 seconds, Holmgang is 6 but you lose at least 1 - 2 seconds activating it early enough to not die before the effect kicks in. Superbolide has the same problem as Hallowed Ground in its activation timings but the added bonus of instant death if an attack slips between the HP reduction effect and the damage invulnerability going active.

GNB and WAR both require emergency fast healing. WAR because you have very few seconds to get them to a safe level, Can be more laid back about GNB thanks to the shield but you can't take too long because you risk the GNB taking a big hit right out of the shield and falling over anyway.

The thing is, all 3 of the aforementioned Tank immortal buttons trigger at 1 HP.
Putting Benediction aside, any Tank at 1 HP is going to require a large investment of healing to push back to safe levels.

As an AST main who enjoys playing all 3 Healers in sub Savage content, I can say that Living Dead is the easiest of the safety buttons to deal with on all 3 jobs. The only adjustment it needs is to make the Walking Dead aspect better visualized on the party bar. The majority of deaths I've seen from Walking Dead happens because the Healer didn't see the debuff. It needs to be a stylized bar across the health pool that depletes with heals received. We already have the Shield displays, we just need to tweak it to show Walking Dead status too.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

In addition to what has been said right above. This also overlooks the fact that you would not have dissipation up in most unplanned scenarios as you would be using it pretty frequently in a personally optimized setting (using dissipation every other pack in dungeons, and close to cooldown in raids). A good SCH will always have some stacks handy but rarely a full 3 stacks AND either recitation or excog. You'd have to be really un-optimized or it's clear the tank is squishy AF and something's going to go sideways so they hold onto everything.

Besides, again, even if you stock up on everything and keep your tank alive, it's such a ridiculous amount of ressources for one invuln mechanic.

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I'm genuinely curious why you think Dissipation should be used that regularly (Outside of Savage, as I'm aware it can be a DPS gain thanks to stupid Energy Drain being back).
Using it on Trash means its not up for bosses, where that extra boost of damage provided by EDs is worth anything.
Using it on Trash means you're sacrificing Embrace and Union on the Tank, both of which allow more freedom to drop nukes.
In EX Roulettes, I use 2 AFs per trash, 3 if the DPS is on the slow side. 1 Excog and Sacred Soil at the start of the pull and then a second SS if the pack lasts too long. The occasional Adlo and letting Eos do her thing is more than enough even in mass pulls as long as the Tank is half decent.
Recitation is always saved for the latter half of a pull, since the Tanks personal mitigation will be tapped out by then.

So assuming I've allowed the Tank to fall so low on trash he had to pop a Living Dead … I'd still have ET, 1 spare AF charge, Dissipation and Recitation available. With Aetherflow coming back soon.
An unplanned Walking Dead KO trigger in a raid setting is a red flag on both Healers.

Also, I'll raise you the fact that Benediction is often used to extend a WHM's nuking in EX AND Raids/Trials. So theres a good chance there wont be a Benediction forthcoming to deal with an unplanned Living Dead anyway. Forcing the WHM to spend just as much effort as the other 2 Healers to get the job done.
That 'effort' is spent equally on getting a WAR back to safety as well as GNBs. 1 HP is 1 HP. Walking Dead at least has the benefit of lasting 10 seconds.