There's not much unique-ness when it comes to tank jobs, are there?

I saw a post on someones view of paladin in its current state and the thread wasn't very well received, I think it's because the author got caught in the typical trap of arguing "viability" of the class. So I'm gonna make a quick disclaimer and say this post is in no way criticizing the viability of tanks, you can literally make a class viable with 2 buttons it's not that hard. This is actually regarding what makes the tank classes unique in respective to their names.

First of all the design team seems to have made defense a very passive stat, and most of a tanks survival comes from skill mitigation (and of course the healer) so in turn that has kind of made the paladin shield nothing more than just being aesthetic. Sure paladin can block, and sure you can do it every so often but it's very unreliable and... I'm not sure, but I think the occasional block was meant to make up for the lack of healing (or barrier) in their basic rotation because all other tanks have that but paladin doesn't. So the only way to get a reliable use out of your block is to use Shelltron, however all other tanks get a different variation of that exact same ability so how does that make paladin unique? *shrugs*

I wasn't around during the beginning of Stormblood, but I was told that among the warrior players they weren't exactly happy with the whole inner release+fel cleave situation, it took a unique class and basically turned it into a meme. But the designers liked it so much that they gave variations of that same 5 button spam rotation to paladin and dark knight? Paladin also has a mini spam in its rotation with Atonement which personally I don't really see the point... I think that gunbreaker is the only one that's unique in that case so good on them.

Anyway I can go on forever, but the point is that none of these jobs are really that unique in anything beyond aesthetics. It's strange to me that they are so desperate to get every class perfectly balanced that they didn't realize that they just managed to make all the jobs exactly the same... or maybe they did realize that and that's their ultimate plan, who knows.

I have tons of ideas to make these jobs unique, but I won't go into that. For now I'll just say that I don't see a problem with minor imbalance. I don't mind seeing paladin as the staple, easy mode tank class that it started off being, because when you think "Tank" in any game it's usually paladin or Sword+Shield. It would be cool to see paladin being the tank class with the highest defense and best damage mitigator.
I don't mind seeing Warrior become the highest damage, highest self healing and highest HP tank in the game the way it originally was. Warrior was difficult, but when people played it right it was admirable and fun to see.
I don't mind seeing Dark Knight as the inner darkness job with the highest angst level and unique love for anime. There's alot they can do with this job to make it less copy pasta than the rest.
Finally believe it or not I actually kinda like Gunbreaker, simply because I think it's the most unique tank due to its rotation. I think it can be WAY better, but it does make me a bit hopeful that they intend on advancing back to unique-ness and job identity.

I know they're worried about the meta, but the nature of "the meta" will always choose one job over another. These hardcore players don't much care for identity or lore, the biggest thing for them is viability and efficiency, so if Paladin has a single second of faster efficiency in a boss fight than Warrior due to animation lag or whatever, then the meta will chose Paladin. I think SE should focus more on making each class "unique" and reasonably ABLE to do end game content, rather than making sure that every class is represented equally in the end game logs.

EDIT: Hmm after thinking about it, I think what I want is a new unique experience every time I switch to a new job. Kinda like I'm actually playing a new game. I feel like at one point they were actually on that path, but that has definitely changed over time. Is it too much to ask? What do you think?

I don't care about lore when it makes a skill complete sh**. Living dead is a sh** tank invuln for everyone but "oh the lore!" well people won't care and it won't be played. Tanks can be unique but they also need to be viable.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

I don't care about lore when it makes a skill complete sh**. Living dead is a sh** tank invuln for everyone but "oh the lore!" well people won't care and it won't be played. Tanks can be unique but they also need to be viable.

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Didn't say they shouldn't be viable, if you'd like to re-read what I said you sure can :P
Here's a copy paste for ya "I think SE should focus more on making each class "unique" and reasonably ABLE to do end game content,"

But I do see what you're saying. Living dead is kinda silly and needs a second look.

There is not much you could do in games like these.

Jobs performance is being calculated by the DPS they do, and deffensives are binary either they are enough to make it viable or not and thats it.

Unique gameplay does not go well with a game where only one thing is important, especially on the role that is expected a certain performance from by the community with other things taking it as "granted" like for example: pulling big, mitigate decently, bring utility, survive tank busters etc.
They cant be too different because you will end up with jobs that will struggle to do certain duty (i am looking at your HW/SB paladin in dungeons).
Thats why they gave tanks a core gameplay and add some flavours to it to be a little more diverse. It is extremely difficult to make jobs totaly different from each other, but performing the same role the same.
If someone is looking for diverse gameplay he should play DPS, since they are not tied to the strict class rules which all tanks have to meet.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

There is not much you could do in games like these.

Jobs performance is being calculated by the DPS they do, and deffensives are binary either they are enough to make it viable or not and thats it.

Unique gameplay does not go well with a game where only one thing is important, especially on the role that is expected a certain performance from by the community with other things taking it as "granted" like for example: pulling big, mitigate decently, bring utility, survive tank busters etc.
They cant be too different because you will end up with jobs that will struggle to do certain duty (i am looking at your HW/SB paladin in dungeons).
Thats why they gave tanks a core gameplay and add some flavours to it to be a little more diverse. It is extremely difficult to make jobs totaly different from each other, but performing the same role the same.
If someone is looking for diverse gameplay he should play DPS, since they are not tied to the strict class rules which all tanks have to meet.

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That's definitely a unique perspective, however I'm not sure that I agree with you. Warrior survived with its 20% more health and healing for quite a long time, they didn't NEED to swap to paladin defenses because the 20% extra heal was created as the alternative to mirror paladins 20% extra defense. Also to replace paladin's defense buffs they had self heals which could be added upon quite nicely if they tried.

So no I don't quite agree with you when you say "Tanks can't be different beyond aesthetics" that just sounds kinda sad. I think there are many ways they can make each job unique. It might require them to change up certain aspects of gameplay, but I like to believe there are many creative people at SE who are capable of doing it. "If you want unique-ness then just play DPS" is just depressing.

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Originally Posted by Jasmyne

Anyway I can go on forever, but the point is that none of these jobs are really that unique in anything beyond aesthetics. It's strange to me that they are so desperate to get every class perfectly balanced that they didn't realize that they just managed to make all the jobs exactly the same... or maybe they did realize that and that's their ultimate plan, who knows.

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Define what you mean by unique; Tell me exactly how the jobs are exactly all the same. So far, I've only seem people over generalizing.

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Originally Posted by Jasmyne

I have tons of ideas to make these jobs unique, but I won't go into that.

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Why not, it would prove your point and maybe your ideas are going to have enough traction to inspire the designer.

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Originally Posted by Jasmyne

For now I'll just say that I don't see a problem with minor imbalance. I don't mind seeing paladin as the staple, easy mode tank class that it started off being, because when you think "Tank" in any game it's usually paladin or Sword+Shield. It would be cool to see paladin being the tank class with the highest defense and best damage mitigator.
I don't mind seeing Warrior become the highest damage, highest self healing and highest HP tank in the game the way it originally was. Warrior was difficult, but when people played it right it was admirable and fun to see.

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How is that addressing the uniqueness concern? You could achieve the same by adding a on/off stance that would either give you high (A) defense + damage mitigating trait to your normal combo or (B) high DPS + healing trait to your normal combo.

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Originally Posted by Ardox

Define what you mean by unique; Tell me exactly how the jobs are exactly all the same. So far, I've only seem people over generalizing.




Why not, it would prove your point and maybe your ideas are going to have enough traction to inspire the designer.




How is that addressing the uniqueness concern? You could achieve the same by adding a on/off stance that would either give you high (A) defense + damage mitigating trait to your normal combo or (B) high DPS + healing trait to your normal combo.

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Sure, same 123 combo. Same role abilities.
Different variation of the same buff/debuff to maintain (Paladin goring blade, Warrior storm's eye, Dark knight darkness).
Same defense mitigating buffs (Paladin sentinel, Warrior Vengeance, Dark Knight Shadow wall, Gunbreaker Nebula)
Same variation of warrior's Inner release/fel cleave combo (Paladin, warrior, dark knight)
Different variation of the same invulnerability buff (some are better than others, but still fundamentally do the same thing)
Same tank buster mitigation ability (Paladin Shelltron, Warrior Raw intuation, Dark Knight TBN, GNB Heart of stone) However TBN is pretty great I gotta admit
Same 2 button AOE rotation.

Anything else? I mean, I think I just covered all the abilities that fundamentally make each tank that's not some small niche bonus ability. I do think GNB is pretty unique in general, but I already said that so you're clearly not referring to them.

As to your second point, I'm not really that interested in discussing my ideas to make each job unique with you, because it's clear you don't agree with my fundamental argument that they're all generally the same so... what's the point?

Also your last point... I really don't know what you mean by that. Your solution is the complete opposite of the purpose of this post. How does it address it being unique? I mean, it would make paladin the high defense and best at damage mitigation, and would make warrior high in dps and self heals. I think that makes them pretty unique to one another no?

right now 3 of the 4 tanks have as a base the inner release window with extremly minimun diferences wich is something to be worry about, i think is time to say stop, first of all DRK didn't need this mechanic and im worry they end adding this to GNB for no reason in the future.
¿what happen if a player don't like this mechanic?, it's ok if is present on 1 job and if you don't like it you can play one of the other 3 options left, but right now is 3 tanks (+1 dps) with this and 1 tank that don't have it yet. i personally hate this mechanic, is boring uninteresting and depending of the job is more tedious for the animation *staring at bloodspiller* i consider SE need to change the course with tanks gameplay, i will not speak for WAR and PLD but for DRK and GNB i don't want this, they need to encourage gameplay diversity instead of copy pasting the same stuff and adding minnor mechanics on top to differentiate like how DRK and WAR are right now.

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Originally Posted by Jasmyne

post..

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I think there are multiple reasons why we lost "unique-ness" of the jobs. On the one hand the community and the "meta" mentality or fear of being unwanted in groups and wanting all jobs to be "balanced" or viable so the devs while trying to keep the jobs feel unique while you play, they need to make sure they not only do similar dmg, but also have similar mitigation,support and what not capability. Then we have the process of the older the game gets the more complex it will get, so devs need to balance accessibility vs complexity. They want new people to have a easier time picking up the game and learning the classes, instead of having a very steep learning curve until they can learn the job/catch up to the "veteran" players who played said jobs for 2-6years. So it kinda became natural to "dumb" down things and sometimes lose aspects which made certain jobs unique. Then of course there is also the different views of the player base vs the dev-team, or different philosophy's of what makes the jobs unique in the 1st place. Also the way the player-base plays the game, viewing certain things as useless and so on. Also the fact that we constantly get new jobs, its hard to give them all a different "feel" while playing and make them feel unique and different enough, but on par in usefulness/effectiveness with the "older" jobs.

I think all jobs felt really unique until Stormblood, when the devs decided to make jobs easier across the board and with the (i think) 1st skills pruning and the new "gauge" system. I don't remember what the phrase exactly was back then, but it was something about "raising the skill floor" and making the difference between bad players and good ones look much smaller then it was back in arr/hw. At least until then there was no skill pruning and not such a huge "streamlining" of skills like the one we had with Shadowbringer.

I am not against any of those changes they made tbh, but there are a lot of elements i dislike, even if i can understand the reasons why they did those changes. One of the things i dislike is the constant removal of "synergy" skills/buffs like slashing/piercing debuffs. I think they simply added more depth to the whole combat system, even if they caused huge "imbalances" and excluded jobs from the "meta".

Also since they balance around "savage" content difficulty, there is imo a problem arising from the design of the "savage" content it self. It all feels a bit too streamlined to me or perhaps overly designed/balanced and predictable. Maybe because the size of the group is so small or because how the encounters always do the same thing and all jobs (tanks/heals) can deal with everything. Like almost every aoe is magical (very rare cases of phys aoe), you always have a cd for a tankbuster and so on. I really miss the "old" design of physical and magical tanks, that in certain boss fights one class has advantages over another by design of the class and so on, but given that we can only bring 8 ppl to a fight maybe such designs are simply not possible. While the devs mentioned something about experimenting with the idea of "main" tank and "off" tank, i still can't see a difference, since they want them all to be able to "main" tank.

I don't know, i am kinda conflicted with the whole "unique-ness" vs "balance" thing. I do want every job to be "viable" but maybe not optimal for an encounter and in the same time to be unique and provide a different dynamic and perks for having "X" specific job in the group. But at the moment it all boils down to "dps"/"rdps", which i am not a fan of. I wish it was, for example, something like that : Lets take a paladin for raid utility even if he deals less dps, but will help us survive "X" mechanic, or lets take bard for "X" buff and debuff which will help the group, and so on, that you could make choices based on what a specific class provides. I feel we don't have that anymore, at least to the extend we used to have back in heavensward. Sure if you want to play the meta you simply copied it and that's it, but since not every job did everything any other job does, you had to make choices, or maybe its just foggy memory and we never really had those choices...

I mean what's setting us apart now is almost just animations and weapons at this point. I think the role action system (along with some of these changes in Shb) made the situation even worse. It's really boring for all 3 tanks to have the same looking CD, stun, silence, and other stuff. In my opinion the only time the tank jobs felt different was in Heavensward. I would say ARR too, but I didn't level WAR at all and only played PLD so I don't know if they were similar to one another.

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Originally Posted by shao32

right now 3 of the 4 tanks have as a base the inner release window with extremly minimun diferences wich is something to be worry about, i think is time to say stop, first of all DRK didn't need this mechanic and im worry they end adding this to GNB for no reason in the future.
¿what happen if a player don't like this mechanic?, it's ok if is present on 1 job and if you don't like it you can play one of the other 3 options left, but right now is 3 tanks (+1 dps) with this and 1 tank that don't have it yet. i personally hate this mechanic, is boring uninteresting and depending of the job is more tedious for the animation *staring at bloodspiller* i consider SE need to change the course with tanks gameplay, i will not speak for WAR and PLD but for DRK and GNB i don't want this, they need to encourage gameplay diversity instead of copy pasting the same stuff and adding minnor mechanics on top to differentiate like how DRK and WAR are right now.

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Well we already have infuriate, now we just need something that lets us spam burst strike 5 times. (PLEASE DON'T GET ANY IDEAS YOSHI-P). But look I wouldn't say no to DRK having something like continuation. I kinda wish all the tanks had something like it. It's just that feeling of having a new combo opening is a good one.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

i am looking at your HW/SB paladin in dungeons

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I played PLD all throughout HW and SB, never had an issue in dungeons, in fact it was often commented that I was an easy Tank to heal... or do you mean DPS wise?

In which case, sigh; the obsession with DPS (and the designs that drive it) are the root cause of the homogenisation we have seen with 5.0 and it is making the game boring. Levelling Tanks and Healers in ShB has been like pulling teeth and I certainly have no desire to play them at level cap (despite playing both roles regularly in HW and SB). Honestly, if BLM wasn't so much fun I'm not sure I would still be playing.

NB. I'm levelling Tanks and Healers because I like being able to change gameplay styles, and fill needed roles, but the enjoyment of playing them has gone down significantly since 5.0

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

I played PLD all throughout HW and SB, never had an issue in dungeons, in fact it was often commented that I was an easy Tank to heal... or do you mean DPS wise?

In which case, sigh; the obsession with DPS (and the designs that drive it) are the root cause of the homogenisation we have seen with 5.0 and it is making the game boring. Levelling Tanks and Healers in ShB has been like pulling teeth and I certainly have no desire to play them at level cap (despite playing both roles regularly in HW and SB). Honestly, if BLM wasn't so much fun I'm not sure I would still be playing.

NB. I'm levelling Tanks and Healers because I like being able to change gameplay styles, and fill needed roles, but the enjoyment of playing them has gone down significantly since 5.0

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Well yeah, dps focus is what gave us 5.0 tanks, they play all the same with few differences here and thee.

All have aoe combo, strong aoes, 1-2-3 combo, bigger single target damage, pull, dash, similar def CDs, some heal, gauge to use, etc stuff.
It was made this way to once and for all finish the balance problems between them.

I almost lvled up to max all of the tanks, it feels like playing the same job with some adjustments, cant get myself to play them anymore its just meh.

I can say that tanking dungeons as PLD is far easier than any other tank. The ability to heal yourself for 60%+ of your maximum health is crazy.

However there are no real super differences between the tanks when you compare them to DPS differences.

There isn't much uniqueness anymore. Other than 123 combo, PLD have spells to cast, WAR have fell cleave, DRK have blood/mp spender, and that's pretty much it. I got very bored with PLD in boss fight that I lost the desire to level it. Homogenization brings DRK even more similar to WAR that I view DRK as WAR job with mp management. For me, GNB is the only tank that is fun to play thanks to cartridge combos giving me more than the 123 loop.

I really don't like the imbalance between big cool down abilities among all four. Living Dead is just a burden for healer. Holmgang is better, but not by much because there is no real invuln window and you still continue to take damage like in Walking Dead state. Superbolide is much better than I thought. Although hp is 1, the invuln prevents incoming damage, so there's not much difficulty for healer to to keep me alive and even trust Urianger and Aliphy can do it. Hallowed Ground is the only one without punishment except it's a 7 mins cd, but it is the most fitting amongst the four. Living Dead is trash and Holmgang is just not strong enough compare to the other two.

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Originally Posted by Jasmyne

zip

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We had the diversity of tanks once. Not now. The realm Reborn gave us the choice of mitigation tank and damagin tank. Then we had DRK in the 1st expansion who was clunky but interesting and unique. And then SE decided to kill all the fun... The tanks in the current state are not unique, blend, generic and boring. They all have the same things: 1 AoE rotation, 1 single target rotation, gauge to fill for special moves (that are mainly damage), own mitigation tool, job mitigation tool, invulnerability. The rotations can be played different from tank to tank but in the end of the day they all played the same way. It's bad design and I hate this expansion for that. The ShB gave us great story and screw up all jobs. Oh, yeah. One more thing. SE are dumb enough to not change the Living Dead for DRK. They could've diverse the playstyle and actions of tanks AND change the Living Dead, but instead we have bad design and no demanded changes. Great job, SE, great job...

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

I played PLD all throughout HW and SB, never had an issue in dungeons, in fact it was often commented that I was an easy Tank to heal... or do you mean DPS wise?

In which case, sigh; the obsession with DPS (and the designs that drive it) are the root cause of the homogenisation we have seen with 5.0 and it is making the game boring. Levelling Tanks and Healers in ShB has been like pulling teeth and I certainly have no desire to play them at level cap (despite playing both roles regularly in HW and SB). Honestly, if BLM wasn't so much fun I'm not sure I would still be playing.

NB. I'm levelling Tanks and Healers because I like being able to change gameplay styles, and fill needed roles, but the enjoyment of playing them has gone down significantly since 5.0

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Finaly! The man with the same thoghts! I just hate those MORONS who only thinking about "GIvE Us thE mAx DEeEEPSssS!!"! Like seriously, F*CK you and you stand for! You are the reason the unique jobs were destroyed only because you have a boner on the "BiG NuMBaS!!!" and all we have now is blend and generic copypaste!

Uniqueness and functionality are normally on two completely opposite ends of the spectrum in MMOs. You need look no further than the original incarnations of DRK and Machinist to see this in action. Both jobs were designed with mechanics intended to differentiate them from their extant counteparts, and both jobs suffered greatly for it. It wasn't until they started focusing on function that jobs in general began drifting ever close to a state of relative parity.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Uniqueness and functionality are normally on two completely opposite ends of the spectrum in MMOs. You need look no further than the original incarnations of DRK and Machinist to see this in action. Both jobs were designed with mechanics intended to differentiate them from their extant counteparts, and both jobs suffered greatly for it. It wasn't until they started focusing on function that jobs in general began drifting ever close to a state of relative parity.

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Funny thing is that the only class that plays the same is DRK and WAR. ARR to ShB, PLD, got nothing but QoL. Shields blocks all damage, PLD improve damage rotation and now has a magical phase and physical. A gap closer, a better air rotation,and more utility skills. PLD, has been nothing but improve on what the past expansion had done. The only tank that was screwed over was DRK, lost its aoe skills synergy, went from a tank that was about speed and damage sustain to burst copying infuriate.

Tanks got a basic kit, because people will (still) complain about physical and magical mitigation. Still there some changes that's needed. 30% damage reduction skills need to be 15 seconds not 10, the other tanks need to each have a flavor to their skill also, DRK gets mana every time they're hit, PLD gets shield path gauge every time they're damage, GNB gets a barrier. No reason why only WAR skill is unique, and everyone else is sentinel.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Uniqueness and functionality are normally on two completely opposite ends of the spectrum in MMOs. You need look no further than the original incarnations of DRK and Machinist to see this in action. Both jobs were designed with mechanics intended to differentiate them from their extant counteparts, and both jobs suffered greatly for it. It wasn't until they started focusing on function that jobs in general began drifting ever close to a state of relative parity.

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I will NOT appologize for what I'm going to say and I will say it in advance. The MCH and DRK (as old PLD and WAR) were unique and FUN. I DIDN'T CARE about how fast they clear something or that some IDIOT can't make the proper MCH rotation to do damage because he's to dumb or can't work with his fingers - GIT GUT. And that was the main thing why I played those jobs. THE FUN. It's a GAME that must gice us FUN. It's not some form of sport where you need 110% efficiency and zero fun!!! And those who played MCH and DRK in that time were playing them FOR FUN, because they LIKED THE JOB. They (and me) didn't care about numbers as long, as they had FUN. I, personaly, loved the Dark Arts mechanick! I loved the Reload mechanick! I loved the process of weaving DA or Reload in my rotation to have my results. And all those IDIOTS who asked to remove them - I hate them. This is NOT A SPORT. WE DO NOT CARE ABOUT 0.XX seconds of better clear of duty! WE CARE ABOUT FUN. And you, SE, has gone WRONG road and you drive the fun out of your game. I'm leveling up PLD job now and I feel NO DIFFERENCE with WAR. You know what it mean? SHIT DESIGN. When you can't feel you play different job it's a SHIT DESIGN. And I can tell you one thing that is certain - I'M HAVING A LOT LESS FUN WITH THIS GAME THAN BEFORE WITH YOUR CHANGES, SE. AND I CONSIDER TO QUIT IT. And I'm sure I'm not alone with such thoughts. So anyone who aked for those changes and ruined the identity of the jobs - FCK YOU.

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Originally Posted by Rakshazi

I will NOT appologize for what I'm going to say and I will say it in advance. The MCH and DRK (as old PLD and WAR) were unique and FUN. I DIDN'T CARE about how fast they clear something or that some IDIOT can't make the proper MCH rotation to do damage because he's to dumb or can't work with his fingers - GIT GUT. And that was the main thing why I played those jobs. THE FUN. It's a GAME that must gice us FUN. It's not some form of sport where you need 110% efficiency and zero fun!!! And those who played MCH and DRK in that time were playing them FOR FUN, because they LIKED THE JOB. They (and me) didn't care about numbers as long, as they had FUN. I, personaly, loved the Dark Arts mechanick! I loved the Reload mechanick! I loved the process of weaving DA or Reload in my rotation to have my results. And all those IDIOTS who asked to remove them - I hate them. This is NOT A SPORT. WE DO NOT CARE ABOUT 0.XX seconds of better clear of duty! WE CARE ABOUT FUN. And you, SE, has gone WRONG road and you drive the fun out of your game. I'm leveling up PLD job now and I feel NO DIFFERENCE with WAR. You know what it mean? SHIT DESIGN. When you can't feel you play different job it's a SHIT DESIGN. And I can tell you one thing that is certain - I'M HAVING A LOT LESS FUN WITH THIS GAME THAN BEFORE WITH YOUR CHANGES, SE. AND I CONSIDER TO QUIT IT. And I'm sure I'm not alone with such thoughts. So anyone who aked for those changes and ruined the identity of the jobs - FCK YOU.

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MCH and DRK were 2 of the lowest played jobs. The amount of people having FUN was low. They changed them. They now have far more players than they did before. That means more people LIKE THE JOB and are having more FUN than before. Thank you SE for fixing these jobs.

Your attitude is an absolute disgrace. Please quit, we don't need this type of toxicity in the game.

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Originally Posted by Rakshazi

I will NOT appologize for what I'm going to say and I will say it in advance. The MCH and DRK (as old PLD and WAR) were unique and FUN. I DIDN'T CARE about how fast they clear something or that some IDIOT can't make the proper MCH rotation to do damage because he's to dumb or can't work with his fingers - GIT GUT. And that was the main thing why I played those jobs. THE FUN. It's a GAME that must gice us FUN. It's not some form of sport where you need 110% efficiency and zero fun!!! And those who played MCH and DRK in that time were playing them FOR FUN, because they LIKED THE JOB. They (and me) didn't care about numbers as long, as they had FUN. I, personaly, loved the Dark Arts mechanick! I loved the Reload mechanick! I loved the process of weaving DA or Reload in my rotation to have my results. And all those IDIOTS who asked to remove them - I hate them. This is NOT A SPORT. WE DO NOT CARE ABOUT 0.XX seconds of better clear of duty! WE CARE ABOUT FUN. And you, SE, has gone WRONG road and you drive the fun out of your game. I'm leveling up PLD job now and I feel NO DIFFERENCE with WAR. You know what it mean? SHIT DESIGN. When you can't feel you play different job it's a SHIT DESIGN. And I can tell you one thing that is certain - I'M HAVING A LOT LESS FUN WITH THIS GAME THAN BEFORE WITH YOUR CHANGES, SE. AND I CONSIDER TO QUIT IT. And I'm sure I'm not alone with such thoughts. So anyone who aked for those changes and ruined the identity of the jobs - FCK YOU.

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IF YOU DIDN'T LIKE WHAT I LIKED, YOU'RE A BIG DOODOO DUMB DUMB HEAD!

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Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

Your attitude is an absolute disgrace. Please quit, we don't need this type of toxicity in the game.

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"I liked how it was before you changed it at the expense of veteran players who actually enjoyed the more complex mechanics" = so toxic they should quit?

Please tell me you're seeing the irony here...

The guy could make his point a whole lot less belligerently, but just the same, not liking the new version as much as the old is a valid opinion.

I haven't played WAR, since storm blood, so I forgot some of the skills name lol. Inner release was the skill I was talking about. Inner release mimics Resquiat now.

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Originally Posted by Quri

I haven't played WAR, since storm blood, so I forgot some of the skills name lol. Inner release was the skill I was talking about. Inner release mimics Resquiat now.

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It... deals direct damage, requires that you have 80+% Beast Gauge to have any additional effect, and only affects two GCDs that are otherwise situational at best?

There are virtually no similarities between the two save that they are both buff CDs...

IR/Req/Del/Cont are all the same idea.

Just the Tanks burst phase.

They just function slightly different from each other.

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Also you can cry about TEH LORE in regards to Dark Knight but the lore has never gone into any detail whatsoever about the skills you learn and use at all. So TEH LORE is a shit answer.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Also you can cry about TEH LORE in regards to Dark Knight but the lore has never gone into any detail whatsoever about the skills you learn and use at all. So TEH LORE is a shit answer.

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DRK's lore is garbage anyway. Completely goes against the theme the job had in literally every other appearance.

DRK is fairly widely regarded as having the best job storyline in this game bar none. So much so that the writer went on to write the main storyline for this expansion (which, in all fairness, could put a lot of main FF title storylines to shame).

I know that taste is a personal thing, but this is one of those situations where I just have to raise my eyebrows.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

DRK's lore is garbage anyway. Completely goes against the theme the job had in literally every other appearance.

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Well this isn’t final fantasy(insert whatever number),it’s final fantasy 14, they can do whatever they want with the job.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

DRK is fairly widely regarded as having the best job storyline in this game bar none. So much so that the writer went on to write the main storyline for this expansion (which, in all fairness, could put a lot of main FF title storylines to shame).

I know that taste is a personal thing, but this is one of those situations where I just have to raise my eyebrows.

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Good storyline sure. As far as actual Dark Knight Lore? Its ass.

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Originally Posted by gman1311

Well this isn’t final fantasy(insert whatever number),it’s final fantasy 14, they can do whatever they want with the job.

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Like steal Rune Knights from FF11 and Celes job from FF6 identity and rename it into Dark Knight so that they can go "DA DERKNESSS DERKI DERK!". Like we're just missing Runic. All we'd really need to do is just allow Dark mind to recover some HP and maybe some MP when they are hit by a magical attack and we could just rename the skill.

To answer the OP though,

The differences lay in the effects of the abilities and that's probably what's making most of the community mad. Because most of the skills don't actually play into each other and there is almost no thought behind it.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Good storyline sure. As far as actual Dark Knight Lore? Its ass.

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The writer didn't get to do the lore, unfortunately. They were given what SE already had and told to write within those constraints for DRK. How they managed to take such awful lore and turn it into a great job story is beyond me, but more power to'em. The story itself is great. Ditto for Shadowbringers so far.

I don't follow what your lore-related complaint is. Primarily because you haven't actually stated what it is.

If you're referring to Dark Knights as they exist in Eorzea, they unsurprisingly exist in contrast to Paladins. Paladins swear oaths to protect people. Sometimes, as is the case with the Sultansworn, their oaths are to protect people in power, or institutions. Sometimes, as we saw in Ishgard, those institutions can be corrupt. That's where Dark Knights come in. They have no oaths, and no allegiances. Their only job is to be true to their hearts, and mete out justice as they see fit. They tear down the corrupt. But in so doing, they live as outcasts.

Opposite sides of the same coin. In a way, it's a reversal of FFIV's take on the Paladin/Dark Knight duality.

If your "lore" issue is about why we don't use HP to do damage, well, that's simple. In a single player game where you control all the characters, expending HP to do damage comes at the cost of your own resources. You still have to spend MP from your healer to heal yourself up so that you can continue. In an MMO, using HP to do damage comes at the expense of your healers' resources, instead of your own. Optimising your dps would come at the expense of your healers. It probably wouldn't go down well. And with the removal of Convert this expansion, we're unlikely to see actions which go down this route.

Speaking of Runic, I think this was a bit of a missed opportunity with Dark Missionary. If we're going to have a magic-only raidwide defense, I'd rather it be a sparkly absorb with a better ability name.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I don't follow what your lore-related complaint is. Primarily because you haven't actually stated what it is.

If you're referring to Dark Knights as they exist in Eorzea, they unsurprisingly exist in contrast to Paladins. Paladins swear oaths to protect people. Sometimes, as is the case with the Sultansworn, their oaths are to protect people in power, or institutions. Sometimes, as we saw in Ishgard, those institutions can be corrupt. That's where Dark Knights come in. They have no oaths, and no allegiances. Their only job is to be true to their hearts, and mete out justice as they see fit. They tear down the corrupt. But in so doing, they live as outcasts.

Opposite sides of the same coin. In a way, it's a reversal of FFIV's take on the Paladin/Dark Knight duality.

Speaking of Runic, I think this was a bit of a missed opportunity with Dark Missionary. If we're going to have a magic-only raidwide defense, I'd rather it be a sparkly absorb with a better ability name.

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The major lore complaint most people seem to have about DRK is that it isn't evil. The vast majority of Dark Knight's appearances throughout the Final Fantasy franchise have had it either downright evil or immensely corruptive. Even Cecil wasn't able to use its power without it eating away at his soul.

As for Runic? Yeah, you ain't wrong. Dark Missionary truly was a missed opportunity.

Every Final Fantasy brings its own unique variations on a theme. Given that we just finished an expansion in which managed to turn Light into something fear-inducing, horrific, and evil, I'd say that this game's take on Light and Dark is a lot more nuanced. I love it.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The major lore complaint most people seem to have about DRK is that it isn't evil. The vast majority of Dark Knight's appearances throughout the Final Fantasy franchise have had it either downright evil or immensely corruptive. Even Cecil wasn't able to use its power without it eating away at his soul.

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But it wasn't though. The only outright evil Dark Knight Was Leon from FF2. Cecil was never evil and job didn't "eat away at his Soul". It's outright stated that he couldn't defeat the forces of Darkness while using Dark abilities. The rest of DRKs appearances where as a Neutral Job (Including, hilariously, FF10-2 with all it's J-pop bubbly nonsense). Also you have the whole "The player character is a famous hero" so the only thing they could get away with was Fantasy Greatsword wielding Batman. See also, Thieves.

Is this what we are reduced to now? Complaining that the Job doesn't cater to the edgy 15 year old demographic enough?

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Like steal Rune Knights from FF11 and Celes job from FF6 identity and rename it into Dark Knight so that they can go "DA DERKNESSS DERKI DERK!". Like we're just missing Runic. All we'd really need to do is just allow Dark mind to recover some HP and maybe some MP when they are hit by a magical attack and we could just rename the skill.

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You obviously haven't been paying attention. Please sit down before you hurt yourself.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Good storyline sure. As far as actual Dark Knight Lore? Its ass.

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Why should the lore be constrained to former iterations here or elsewhere? If it's cohesive and compelling, then that's that.

We can obviously argue that there are some missed opportunities between even XIV's lore for DRK and the mechanics then given to them, but we probably have just as much DRK lore from XIV specifically as from other iterations combined, so why judge only according to fidelity with the bits and pieces of the other half when we now have something more cohesive and -- to many -- at least as compelling?

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Originally Posted by Razard

But it wasn't though. The only outright evil Dark Knight Was Leon from FF2. Cecil was never evil and job didn't "eat away at his Soul".

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Did you actually play Final Fantasy IV? The game outright tells you what being a dark knight does to people. Cecil himself even lampshades the fact that wielding the dark sword was taking a toll on him. King Baron further adds to this by informing us that those who failed to master the dark sword had their souls consumed by it and became little better than mindless killing machines. He then goes on to state that even whose who mastered the art would lose their souls somewhere down the line. While FFX-2's dark knight dress sphere is neutral, the lore behind it is that it has a corrupting influence. Said influence simply does not present itself in-game. FFXI's dark knight is also presented as something that can erode the mind and soul. War of the Lions brings us both Dark Knight and Fell Knight, both of which are stated to corrupt the user irreversibly. Even Dissidia makes mention of the fact that Cecil isn't completely comfortable using his dark side due of the inherent risks associated with that power. As for Leon... can we even really count him? His job title may have been Dark Knight, but he didn't actually seem to have any of the abilities that would come to be associated with it.

What a lot of people don't realize is that Final Fantasy XIV actually does have its own version of this. Dark Knights in FFXIV lore can actually be consumed by their own power if they don't control their emotions properly. It makes no mention of consuming the soul or anything like that (to my knowledge, anyway), but it can completely rob them of the person they are. The process is irreversible once complete - the dark knight becomes little more than a killing machine driven by its uncontrolled emotions, uncaring who or what gets hurt over the course of its rampage. The line they walk is razor thin.

Now, having said all that, I would like to pose a question: Why is preferring the job's less kind iterations something only an edgy 15 year old would do? Some of the best stories ever written were those where the hero fell, sometimes even becoming something far worse than what they'd been fighting against. The depiction of dark knights as slowly losing themselves in exchange for the power they harness is one that adds a sort of gravitas - their actions, having both meaning and consequences, are a burden they must bear for so long as they continue to wield wicked power, even in pursuit of peace.

Disclaimer: This is a devil's advocate piece. I am not in any way opposed to DRK's lore in FFXIV. Could it have been handled better? Sure, but that doesn't make it bad.

Darkness isn't intrinsically good or evil. When discussing their actions in Mysidia, Cecil tells Kain that he took up the dark sword to protect the people of Baron, rather than to pillage and kill innocents. His doubts are what drive him to eventually turn his back on Baron, still as a Dark Knight.

Likewise, being a Dark Knight in FFXIV doesn't rob you of your humanity. It's the exact opposite. It's about being true to yourself. It's about freeing yourself from the shackles and expectations that others place on you. The warrior of light. Our weapon of light.

Listen to my voice. Listen to your heartbeat. Listen for the other...

On a throne of bone she waits...
Serve... Save... Slave... Slay...
They come to entreat her judgment...
Serve... Save... Slave... Slay...
One by one, in solemn procession...

A chorus of voices cries out for a hero, and she comes.
She smiles. She nods. And she remains silent...
But she too has a voice...
I will be heard...

The crux of the entire Dark Knight storyline is about finding a voice for your voiceless player character. By harnessing your emotions and giving in to the abyss, you find liberation.

Let's make the most of this. No style, no guile, just chaos. Mark your limits, then push yourself beyond. Let the darkness guide you and set you free.

...You stand at the precipice, but do not fear the fall. Cast yourself into the abyss, and you shall soar above, free at last.
Only when you have renounced everything are you free to do anything. When we meet again, you will give us your answer.

A heart bleeds, a man weeps, a soul burns. Thence comes the darkness, to consume...
Yet even in the depths, the flame endures...
Submit to the flame and harness the abyss...

The point is, your master was absolutely right when he told you to “submit to the flame.” You just never figured out what he meant by it.

It all seems so simple in retrospect...
The moment I stopped trying to find the answer, there it was. All that anger, all that rage...born of a fervent desire to protect that which we hold most dear.

Being a Dark Knight is about acting with humanity, not servitude to abstract ideals. What laypersons call the "darkness" is actually a manifestation of your inner voice and individuality. It's about being true to your feelings and protecting the people most important to you.

I wanted this, once. More than anything. A chance to speak and be heard...
But neither of us needs it anymore. And if we were to look deep within ourselves, we would realize that we never did.
We are the stories we tell ourselves. The brave hero, the tortured soul, the altruist, the pragmatist. They will tell you who they see, but you and you alone know who you are.

I'll say this again: Where others are bound by their Oaths to serve corrupt institutions and tyrants, Dark Knights are free to aid and protect those that they care about. Not because they're asked to, obliged to, or required to, but because they want to. Find yourself, and free yourself.

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Originally Posted by Rakshazi

I will NOT appologize for what I'm going to say and I will say it in advance. The MCH and DRK (as old PLD and WAR) were unique and FUN. I DIDN'T CARE about how fast they clear something or that some IDIOT can't make the proper MCH rotation to do damage because he's to dumb or can't work with his fingers - GIT GUT. And that was the main thing why I played those jobs. THE FUN. It's a GAME that must gice us FUN. It's not some form of sport where you need 110% efficiency and zero fun!!! And those who played MCH and DRK in that time were playing them FOR FUN, because they LIKED THE JOB. They (and me) didn't care about numbers as long, as they had FUN. I, personaly, loved the Dark Arts mechanick! I loved the Reload mechanick! I loved the process of weaving DA or Reload in my rotation to have my results. And all those IDIOTS who asked to remove them - I hate them. This is NOT A SPORT. WE DO NOT CARE ABOUT 0.XX seconds of better clear of duty! WE CARE ABOUT FUN. And you, SE, has gone WRONG road and you drive the fun out of your game. I'm leveling up PLD job now and I feel NO DIFFERENCE with WAR. You know what it mean? SHIT DESIGN. When you can't feel you play different job it's a SHIT DESIGN. And I can tell you one thing that is certain - I'M HAVING A LOT LESS FUN WITH THIS GAME THAN BEFORE WITH YOUR CHANGES, SE. AND I CONSIDER TO QUIT IT. And I'm sure I'm not alone with such thoughts. So anyone who aked for those changes and ruined the identity of the jobs - FCK YOU.

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I'm browsing the forums so 7/8 asleep i can't even spell browse right (thank you spell checker) but this right here?

/hug. Thank you for saying it and not giving a damn who you tick off in the process. Because it's true. Balancing around savage and the elitist twits who only want more dps to clear savage faster (why? so you can get your loot 0.48 seconds faster?) is how we got into this homogenization hot mess classes (not just tanks, look at AST everything is balance now) are becoming with these new "roles"

A tanks job isn't to dps, a healer's job isn't to holy spam. if you want to dps PLAY. A. **** DPS!

But because of people whining about DA having to be spammed nonstop (otherwise you lose DPS) and how some party comps outpaced others (because you lose dps) we get this crap for ShB where everything is basically the same engine under different model cars. Mechanics that might be considered unique or different be damned. DRK didn't need quietus and AD spam to play a razors edge sustain game in mass pulls, just give them their own weaker non crit IR and ignore living dead, surely no one will complain right?

*sigh* the DPS mentality and balancing 95% of your game around the 5% only the people to whom dps truly matters is doing more damage to this game and it's fun then anything else, it's why I shelved DRK and eventually gave up on GNB to just play dps classes this expac, everything else is a bore or a chore.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Darkness isn't intrinsically good or evil. When discussing their actions in Mysidia, Cecil tells Kain that he took up the dark sword to protect the people of Baron, rather than to pillage and kill innocents. His doubts are what drive him to eventually turn his back on Baron, still as a Dark Knight.

Likewise, being a Dark Knight in FFXIV doesn't rob you of your humanity. It's the exact opposite. It's about being true to yourself. It's about freeing yourself from the shackles and expectations that others place on you. The warrior of light. Our weapon of light.

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I would encourage you to go research both of these things more thoroughly. FFIV explicitly states that the dark sword can and does negatively impact everyone that takes it up. Just because Cecil hadn't yet succumbed to its corruptive influence doesn't mean it wasn't having an impact - he says himself that it's changing him.

FFXIV's DRK lore, meanwhile, directly states that any dark knight that fails to properly contain their emotions can be overwhelmed by them to the point of being lost forever. It does indeed pose a great risk to your psyche. A dark knight in FFXIV is taking an immense personal risk each and every time they reach down into their emotions to call upon that power. Fray (the real one, not our aether-forged simulacrum thereof) was actually headed down that very path. Stronger emotions equate to a more powerful dark knight, but becoming too immersed in them exacts a terrible price. They temper their wrath with love for a reason. The process by which DRK functions is described the same way both in-game and in officially sanctioned external materials. This is what they are. What their power is drawn from does not detract from the fact that their purpose is to protect those they wish without considerations as to station or institution.

I play since ARR but went more seriously in HW, and I'm like did we all play the same game? There always was complains about how every tanks are the same for years, how actually every job even tanks and healers are actually designed as DPS with tanking/healing mechanics, about how Bard is actually just a dps and not a real unique buffer like in other MMO (see Ragnarök Online), about how DRK lost all its difficulty and became too easy to play in SB compared to HW, how War just became in SB a stupid Fell Cleave machine meme, how PLD have enough to not be picked in optimized raid teams because of a lack of DPS and how the War can start fight without even starting in Tanking stance. It's nothing new. And the answer about non-uniqueness was that they want every possible team composition can clear any dungeon at 4, and any raid at 8 (or 24) so people play any class they want without having a team leader being like "need bard/dancer for buff. need paladin for covering people. need Scholar for giving back MP to the team. Need Priest for heal and buffs. Every other class, just come dps, you're irrelevant as long as we have enough." they didn't want mandatory classes against optionnal ones. So we all are as mandatory as optionnal with the forced trinity 1 tank, 1 heal, 2 dps.
Maybe SE had enough and wanted to show something because it's been years people complain about the non-uniqueness of those jobs and how similar they feel.
They must be or confused, or laughing a lot reading such topic when you know what people are saying for years and now having people being like "those jobs were unique and fun" when like no one said so during HW/SB (some people still defended them, but the overall complain was there).

About the fact more people find MCH fun, it doesn't mean SE fixed something. Because they already had fun with another job. People already having fun still have fun, while people who had fun in a very different way lost their fun. That's not what I would call fixing a job. Maybe they did, but not for that reason.