Samurai's 5.05 "Hagakure" Dead on Arrival

The 5.05 version of Hagakure isn't worth using under any situation whether it be for resetting sen, using it during downtime, or to realign.

Using 5.05 Hagakure to reset sen is a loss of potency because it's delaying the next Midare and the Sen to Kenki conversion is too low compared to the original Hagakure.

Monk recieved buffs when it was already close to Samurai damage as it is, and has utility. Dragoon overshadows Samurai's damage when you add in utility.

The devs should change Hagakure to the original version because as it is now IT'S A SLAP TO THE FACE.

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Originally Posted by gintokiygo

The 5.05 version of Hagakure isn't worth using under any situation whether it be for resetting sen, using it during downtime, or to realign.

Using 5.05 Hagakure to reset sen is a loss of potency because it's delaying the next Midare and the Sen to Kenki conversion is too low compared to the original Hagakure.

Monk recieved buffs when it was already close to Samurai damage as it is, and has utility. Dragoon overshadows Samurai's damage when you add in utility.

The devs should change Hagakure to the original version because as it is now IT'S A SLAP TO THE FACE.

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And Bard doesn't get instant cast FR back. Not even Soul Gauge sound changes. While SAM got an ability they don't want to use back.

Cried and sad in the corner.

Dont think they mentioned any change to hagakure skill, should be exactly the same as it was in SB, no? Kinda confused tbh, Hagakure isnt like replacing Ikishoten or anything they're just giving us the old stormblood Hagakure skill back.

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

Dont think they mentioned any change to hagakure skill, should be exactly the same as it was in SB, no? Kinda confused tbh, Hagakure isnt like replacing Ikishoten or anything they're just giving us the old stormblood Hagakure skill back.

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It was datamined to only give 5 Kenki per Sen instead of 20.

Because the mobile version is stupid and I haven't had a chance to login on my PC to remove the copy pasta. Apparently any time I edited it in the preview post it was posting to the forums. Also mobile doesn't seem to have a way to remove the post.

They only brought hagakure back as a way to reset your sen.

Hakagure was always the tool to reset sen for me. Oh I had many situation I can use.

• Clean opener on boss fight in dungeon
• Clean opener in 24 man raids
• Boss transition rotation fix

I'm super glad this neat tool is back and giving barely any kenki. Optimal or not, I never liked Shinten spam and was never a spammer. In 4.0 it is always a tool for me to refill some kenki for emergency. Ikishoten is still there if you want to be a shinten spammer.

Some of you act the stupidest way as if hakagure is back and you must change the way you play or else. Just don't use it if there's no purpose for you.

Oh and to the other side, Hakagure was never a hindrance to SAM's kit from start. Nobody was forced to be a shinten spammer. If you want to blame the hakagure nightmare in 4.0, blame yourself for playing that way.

Hagakure just exists to clear your sens during downtime or before pull, it isn’t meant to facilitate Shinten spam like it did in the past. It’s a nice quality of life tool for dungeons or downtime IMO.

Would u guys recommend SAM for savage content after latest changes?

Yeah, it can't be overstated enough, Shadowbringer Hagakure IS NOT Stormblood Hagakure. This ability really only does exist to give SAM a clean slate when running dungeons and before boss pulls.

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Originally Posted by Rangar

Yeah, it can't be overstated enough, Shadowbringer Hagakure IS NOT Stormblood Hagakure. This ability really only does exist to give SAM a clean slate when running dungeons and before boss pulls.

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Would it not be used in the opener again like it was in Stormblood? Get your shifu buff, convert one sen to kenki, then get your jinpu buff before applying higanbana?

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Would it not be used in the opener again like it was in Stormblood? Get your kasha buff, convert one sen to kenki, then get your jinpu buff before applying higanbana?

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I haven't touched SAM since Shadowbringers launched, but why would you need to use Hagakure like this? Iaijutsu doesn't interrupt your combo and you'll have more than enough Kenki for Kaiten, so it shouldn't be a problem to land Higanbana between Jinpu and Gekko.

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Originally Posted by Snow_Leonhart

Would u guys recommend SAM for savage content after latest changes?

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Im using it and doing fine so far, seen enrage on the first fight and pretty sure it was not a SAM DPS issue.

Hagakure helps on phase changes.
Tsubame is pretty comfy, albeit the after hit time is a bit confusing (you will unintentionally try to use a GCD 1.2s after Tsubame)
Shoha is just as easy to forget as before, but the 300 potency for 6s downtime is actually... worth it?
It does very good damage and gives you really small tunnel visioning issues, so optimizing a fight is quite simple with it.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

I haven't touched SAM since Shadowbringers launched, but why would you need to use Hagakure like this? Iaijutsu doesn't interrupt your combo and you'll have more than enough Kenki for Kaiten, so it shouldn't be a problem to land Higanbana between Jinpu and Gekko.

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In Stormblood, you'd want to get both your buffs from Shifu and Jinpu before applying your DOT at the start of a pull, so it either meant cutting one of your three move combos short, or using hagakure to convert one sen into kenki before applying your dot. Additionally you wanted the shifu buff first so that you could more quickly get to the other buffs and get the increased auto attack damage going, but that buff wouldn't apply to your DOT, so you needed to then get the jinpu buff before applying that.

I admit I only leveled up samurai to get all the leveling striking gear out of my armory chest and have no intention of touching it again.... the constant sound effect on midare was giving me migraines. So I am not at all up to date on how to play the job optimally since the expansion. So I'm legitimately asking if this isn't now the same moves in the opener again.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

In Stormblood, you'd want to get both your buffs from Shifu and Jinpu before applying your DOT at the start of a pull, so it either meant cutting one of your three move combos short, or using hagakure to convert one sen into kenki before applying your dot. Additionally you wanted the shifu buff first so that you could more quickly get to the other buffs and get the increased auto attack damage going, but that buff wouldn't apply to your DOT, so you needed to then get the jinpu buff before applying that.

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I believe you're assuming that using Iaijutsu (Higabana in this case) removes your combo progress, forcing you to start with Hakaze again. It does not; You can pick up right where you left off.

Example: Hakaze -> Shifu -> Kasha -> Hakaze -> Jinpu -> Hissatsu: Kaiten + Higanbana -> Gekko

Doing this opener in this exact order will always grant you both your Jinpu and Shifu buffs, one Sen for Higanbana, more than enough Kenki to empower it with Kaiten, and will still allow you to finish with Gekko.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

I believe you're assuming that using Iaijutsu (Higabana in this case) removes your combo progress, forcing you to start with Hakaze again. It does not; You can pick up right where you left off.

Example: Hakaze -> Shifu -> Kasha -> Hakaze -> Jinpu -> Hissatsu: Kaiten + Higanbana -> Gekko

Doing this opener in this exact order will always grant you both your Jinpu and Shifu buffs, one Sen for Higanbana, more than enough Kenki to empower it with Kaiten, and will still allow you to finish with Gekko.

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No, I realize it didn't interrupt your combo. I seem to recall doing it this way also ensured that your buff from jinpu was applied server-side when you executed higanbana. This was the same reason you waited an additional GCD at the time after applying your slashing debuff in the opener before using guren, you wanted to make sure that the server registered that debuff in order to get maximum damage.

If this is no longer a concern, then so be it. Like I said, I only just pushed the job to 80 and haven't touched it since, and haven't seriously played it since 4.2 (I did deltascape savage on samurai then switched back to monk once they fixed all the issues that job had)

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

I believe you're assuming that using Iaijutsu (Higabana in this case) removes your combo progress, forcing you to start with Hakaze again. It does not; You can pick up right where you left off.

Example: Hakaze -> Shifu -> Kasha -> Hakaze -> Jinpu -> Hissatsu: Kaiten + Higanbana -> Gekko

Doing this opener in this exact order will always grant you both your Jinpu and Shifu buffs, one Sen for Higanbana, more than enough Kenki to empower it with Kaiten, and will still allow you to finish with Gekko.

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I think he's talking about the old 1-Sen opener, where you ate the Ka Sen in order to provide enough Kenki for Guren, Kaiten+Higan and Kaiten+Midare within the space of your opener. I get what he's saying, but as it stands now, Ikishoten fills that gap just fine. Sure, it's a 60s CD vs. the old Hagakure 40s CD, but that's fine too because I like SAM more as an Iaijutsu class instead of an oGCD spam class. As it stands now, if old Hagakure were to be re-implemented, it's value would go up drastically. Old Shinten was 250 potency, which meant 20 Kenki was 200 potency, allowing us to assign a very easy value conversion to Sen. At 20 Kenki each, one Sen was worth 200 potency. Given that you always wanted to Kaiten+Midare, this meant that Midare would "cost" about 80 Kenki, which under the old values came out to 800 potency. Now, a Kaiten+Midare was 1020 potency, so clearly it's better in a straight up contest, but the devil came with the loss of auto-attacks, the self-root from casting, and the potential combo cost from using Midare in place of something else. So the average potency-per-GCD wasn't as clear cut a gain as it appeared. Eating Sen on CD allowed us to stay mobile and deal damage that - in most cases - was better than what Kaiten+Midare could offer. But at a 5-per Sen conversion, Haga is only useful now as a pre-fight or mid-fight reset when you need to re-apply buffs, or in really niche situations where another 5 Kenki lets you drop a big move or sneak in a bit more damage before a jump or something.

And that's fine, because we wouldn't want old Hagakure back anyway. As it stands now, with Shinten at 320 potency, each Sen under old Haga would be worth 256 potency instead of 200. That's more than a 25% buff to the relative value of Sen. In other words, if old Hagakure had been brought back, then there would be even less reason to Midare than there already was. You would want to do it when it lined up with raid burst windows and when Kaeshi was off CD, but that would be about it. Old Haga would actively disincentivize SAM from using Sen on Midare in every other situation, as the conversion would be so skewed in favor of Shinten that spending the 60 Kenki you would get from 3 Sen would grant more raw damage than an unbuffed Midare once you factor in AA's and average PPGCD.

Anyway, that's a rather long-winded way for me to say I like the new Haga for what it is. Yes, it doesn't really change openers and probably won't have a great mid-battle effect, but it certainly serves as a great QoL tool to make phase transitions or downtime between battles much nicer as a SAM.

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Originally Posted by Quor

I think he's talking about the old 1-Sen opener...

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Yes, thank you. This is the opener I was referring to.

Also while I'm happy it's more enjoyable for you now, I have to say that the more frequent use of iajutsu is what killed this job for me this expansion over being able to convert sen to kenki and do more OGCD moves last expansion. I found the spamming of moves and lots of OGCD attacking to be a lot more fun, not to mention the high pitched squeal on using any iajutsu is migrane inducing for me, especially at it's now higher frequency of use.

And thank you for the answer that the reintroduction of this skill does not change the opener, with that detailed explanation. :)

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Hagakure just exists to clear your sens during downtime or before pull, it isn’t meant to facilitate Shinten spam like it did in the past. It’s a nice quality of life tool for dungeons or downtime IMO.

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Sorry I may be missing something. Why would you *want* to clear your sens? Why would you not hold them for the burst upon re-engage?

It's purely to reset your sen after disengage / transitions where you can't hit the boss, so instead of being stuck with like 2 sen to spend before you can get your DoT up again you can just dump them and get it up quicker.

You won't use it in the opener because you only get 5 Kenki per sen. That's not even enough for 1 Shinten. Before: you used Hagakure rotationally, and in the opener, because the potency you got from turning them to kenki outweighed what you'd get for using them for a Midare. You also used it in the opener because it would boost enough to get a Guren inside raid buffs. Since that's no longer the case there is 0 reason to use it unless you want to dump Sen to get your DoT up.

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Originally Posted by SakiKojiro

Sorry I may be missing something. Why would you *want* to clear your sens? Why would you not hold them for the burst upon re-engage?

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Depends entirely on how much Kenki you have when the boss returns, how many Sen you have at the time, if you'll be able to reapply Higanbana before your buffs expire, etc. For all I know, the extra ticks you'd get are worth more than a Midare Setsugekka upon reengaging the boss.

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Originally Posted by Miziliti

I'm super glad this neat tool is back and giving barely any kenki. Optimal or not, I never liked Shinten spam and was never a spammer. In 4.0 it is always a tool for me to refill some kenki for emergency. Ikishoten is still there if you want to be a shinten spammer.

Some of you act the stupidest way as if hakagure is back and you must change the way you play or else. Just don't use it if there's no purpose for you.

Oh and to the other side, Hakagure was never a hindrance to SAM's kit from start. Nobody was forced to be a shinten spammer. If you want to blame the hakagure nightmare in 4.0, blame yourself for playing that way.

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The issue people have here is that Hagakure is not much of a dps increase as the skill was in 4.0, and that it isn't worth using as a regular part of the rotation. Yes, 4.0 hagakure came with shinten spamming, but we aren't really interested in whether or not you personally liked to use shinten. You yourself acknowledge that you don't make your decisions on how to play based on what is optimal. But, those of us that are interested in playing the class optimally would like to have tools in our toolkit that are worth using from a dps standpoint, and we are happy to change our rotations based on what is optimal. And you're criticizing people for wanting to increase their dps?

It's fine if you personally aren't interested in doing the most damage you can. Play how you want to play, have fun at the end of the day. But recognize that you should probably stay out of conversations like this. Because people are upset that Hagakure does not increase SAM's dps compared to DRG and MNK. This has nothing to do with shinten spamming specifically. This has to do with SE adding in a skill that is barely useful, but doesn't increase SAM's overall dps – aka a conversation for the people that will choose to play optimally.

And "just don't use it if there's no purpose for you" is kind of bad advice. Again, people wanted useful hagakure back, when it gave 20 kenki per sen. Whether you personally liked it that way doesn't matter. It doesn't change how objectively useful the ability is now, and that's what people are discussing.

If you're the kind of person who isn't interested in playing optimally (since hagakure -> shinten was optimal in 4.0), then why are you making yourself part of a conversation where people are discussing optimal play?

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Originally Posted by Letz

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Because I'm tired of seeing people complaining for the sake of complaining while rest of the world has no problem. Hakagure is only back as an addition to 5.0 SAM because many SAM players wanted it's function. Then there's people who's sole reason to dislike SAM is because they forced themselves to play the so called "optimal rotation". If you want to discuss "optimal play" this thread is probably one of the worst choice.

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Originally Posted by Letz

If you're the kind of person who isn't interested in playing optimally (since hagakure -> shinten was optimal in 4.0), then why are you making yourself part of a conversation where people are discussing optimal play?

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The game needs more situational tools.

Old Hagakure wasn't a situational tool.

This Hagakure is.

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Originally Posted by Snow_Leonhart

Would u guys recommend SAM for savage content after latest changes?

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with how strong Monk and Dragoon are? No.

If ur enjoying SAM should u Not play SAM? no.

Play what u love, it'll all have ups and downs.

Can we just get rid of shoha? Seriously have yet to find a use for it so far outside of using it on a training dummy.

Everyone talking about Hagakure and how it was a DPS increase over using Midare... which is true in SB. Ikishoten should provide bigger DPS than Hagakure did, though, because it's a free 50 Kenki that allows you to still Midare.

The only issue is that the rotation becomes much less flexible so we can't take whatever sks we like and call it a day. Yes, it kinda sucks, but it's not like people can't adapt. I've done it, though I do feel certain parts are now awkward. Having to hold off on Meikyo now to make sure it lines up with Tsubame has been a change. The awkward pause after Tsubame has made me realize I need to make sure I save some Kenki for a Shinten or try to sneak a tick of Meditate in there if the gods are willing.

I'm fine with new Hagakure just being a Sen clear. It's useful for dungeons and phase transitions so you can have a clean start and not worry about overlapping Sen.

As for Shoha, it needs some changes, sure, but if you're not using it outside of a training dummy, it means you're never using Meditate and that's bad. Several fights give time to Meditate, especially Ex Trials or raid fights.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Everyone talking about Hagakure and how it was a DPS increase over using Midare... which is true in SB. Ikishoten should provide bigger DPS than Hagakure did, though, because it's a free 50 Kenki that allows you to still Midare.

The only issue is that the rotation becomes much less flexible so we can't take whatever sks we like and call it a day. Yes, it kinda sucks, but it's not like people can't adapt. I've done it, though I do feel certain parts are now awkward. Having to hold off on Meikyo now to make sure it lines up with Tsubame has been a change. The awkward pause after Tsubame has made me realize I need to make sure I save some Kenki for a Shinten or try to sneak a tick of Meditate in there if the gods are willing.

I'm fine with new Hagakure just being a Sen clear. It's useful for dungeons and phase transitions so you can have a clean start and not worry about overlapping Sen.

As for Shoha, it needs some changes, sure, but if you're not using it outside of a training dummy, it means you're never using Meditate and that's bad. Several fights give time to Meditate, especially Ex Trials or raid fights.

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May I have your opinion, Mr.Ryaz?
If we could deal more 3495 potency every 1 minute will it make us equal with BLM in term of pDPS?

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Originally Posted by Snow_Leonhart

Would u guys recommend SAM for savage content after latest changes?

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I would recommend doing savage content on the playstyle you enjoy most. Savage content is clearable with any and all classes so the only factor here (and playing games in general) is how much fun you have doing it. I for one just like SAM the most and clear stuff with my friends while having lots of fun. Don't worry so much about what other people think. That being said, I'm really digging the instant cast Tsubame-Gaeshi skills. It just makes things feel more epic, kinda like your signature hah! xD

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Originally Posted by Valenth

I would recommend doing savage content on the playstyle you enjoy most. Savage content is clearable with any and all classes so the only factor here (and playing games in general) is how much fun you have doing it. I for one just like SAM the most and clear stuff with my friends while having lots of fun. Don't worry so much about what other people think. That being said, I'm really digging the instant cast Tsubame-Gaeshi skills. It just makes things feel more epic, kinda like your signature hah! xD

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May I have your opinion, Ms.Valenth?
If we could deal more 3495 potency every 1 minute will it make us equal with BLM in term of pDPS?

am i the only one happy with the current hagakure? They gave it back with some tweeking because sam players needed it to reset sen, plain and simply. Why are people complaining seriously?

.... So... turns out that ... it may actually not be dead?
Was dummy hitting some and, as many a SAM may know by now, depending on your Skill speed, you may run into a situation where things just don't... line up.

The 3 things that needs to line up but due to the opener they may be out of place are: Higanbana, Meikyo, and Tsubame.
All these have something to do with Sen, and when it comes to renewing/reusing them, they may come in a time when they get on each other's way, because there is "too much Sen".

Hagakure is here to act as a middle man and say "hey, don't fight, here I'll take these out of the way so you can actually line up now".

Using Hagakure in order to make these 3 line up later on in the fight (not in the opener) may actually be a DPS gain.
As you will not delay Higanbana's DoT renewal to make way for Tsubame, or Midare too soon because you used Meikyo out of time and have Tsubame come in too late.

It is hard to explain the timing in numbers... but I am sure thats as a fellow SAM, you may have run into this situation too... try out Hagakure patch fixing your Sens if you run into this... at least in the 3 minutes dummies, this gave me a 500 DPS gain...

Edit: then again, dummies so, disclaimer.

If you use Hagakure eat one sen you will loose 150 potency per minute, what a stupid design. Does the designer of SAM really play SAM before?

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Originally Posted by CapDL

If you use Hagakure eat one sen you will loose 150 potency per minute, what a stupid design. Does the designer of SAM really play SAM before?

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You're not supposed to use Hagakure as part of your rotation. Its merely a quality of life skill to make phase changes and dungeons runs less annoying.

Not sure why people still think it's supposed to be used in your rotation.

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Originally Posted by CapDL

If you use Hagakure eat one sen you will loose 150 potency per minute, what a stupid design.

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Yea, I am aware that eating the Sen with Hagakure will be a direct DPS loss, that much is obvious to the eye...
But how much is the other side of the coin tho?
How much is lost by delaying Tsubame because you Midared too soon?
How much is lost by waiting for a better moment to use Meikyo because if you use it on CD you end up messing up Midare timing for Tsubame?

You are only counting one side here... I am not saying Hagakure is meant to use constantly on rotation... but that I "feel" it may have this "hidden" feature that you are overlooking because its a glaringly obvious 150 DPS loss.

Again, I am not suggesting it to be used on rotation, but to eat 1 single Sen and never again inbetween the regular rotation after the opener and the 2nd Tsubame to fix the timing of those 3 skills.
But, its ok, I know its too wild an idea, Im skeptical myself, maybe all I need is to Yaten Enpi... will still keep testing out. At least in what I've tested so far, it allows a marvelous 2nd Burst phase.

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

Yea, I am aware that eating the Sen with Hagakure will be a direct DPS loss, Bur.

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Sorry, i am a little confused, new hakagkure don’t need sen to use. As long as you are in combat, it gives you 50 kit per god use. Why is it dead on arrival? Am I wrong?

I do hope we're past the point of people needing to be told hagakure is primarily there to fix opener/post downtime leftover sen awkwardness.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Sorry, i am a little confused, new hakagkure don’t need sen to use. As long as you are in combat, it gives you 50 kit per god use. Why is it dead on arrival? Am I wrong?

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That's Ikishoten, not Hagakure

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Originally Posted by CapDL

If you use Hagakure eat one sen you will loose 150 potency per minute, what a stupid design. Does the designer of SAM really play SAM before?

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It's now a skill to be used in specific situations rather than be a part of your rotation.

Example of this: Eden Prime. You finish adds phase with 2 sen. When Eden Prime lands, you can either do a weak midare since you don't have your buffs, or you can eat your sen so you can apply higanbana as soon as possible.

The situations in which you will use the skill likely won't be often, but it is important for samurai to have a means of resetting their sen.